I need your honest opinions and thoughts, please...

[wilsbrough]

Hi guys, i have a big dilemma. But i will tell my story 1st. I went to China this year to meet a lady who i thought was 'the one'. We got on very well thru the emf's, but never had any real direct contact before i went, All her pictures she sent came thru the Chnlove website, and when i arrived in China, if it was not for the fact that the translator called out my name, i would have walked right past her, as she looked nothing like the pictures she had sent.. Also she was supposed to have reasonable English skills, but turned out that they were very, very basic. There was other discrepancies with her interests to and to be honest i felt like i had been deceived! Not the best way to begin a loving lasting relationship right?

Then on my return, i started writing to another girl for about 3 months, about a week after getting off the emf's she said she saw me as more of a brother, and i have sent direct emails to her after this, but i have never got a reply since...

I have now been writing to a lady who seems very nice, (only for about 1 month now but we write emf's everyday) we have similar interests, in music, hobbies etc. She told me hers 1st, so i know these are genuine and she was not just saying she likes the same things as me to seem more compatible. She has sent me pictures, that are of her in everyday situations and  on her holidays, but again thru Chnlove. I have told her of my past experiences, and said that i felt badly deceived by these two other girls, and before i commit to coming to China again i really would like at least one webcam chat with her. She says she has no computer at home, but uses her work computer to write and send me replies, via her agency, and this is how she gets my mails, so she must have a direct email right? I have given her mine, but she has not given me hers, i have mentioned QQ and she uses this at work with her clients. I have mentioned i could phone her, but she has not given me her cell number. So after telling her my past bad experiences and said we know of some bad agencies who send emails without the girl knowing and of the 'photoshopping' that can occur. This is part of her last reply

''Your description in these letters did scare me a lot, l don't know what to say already............ Anyhow, l have to be frank with you that l firmly believe that trust is the most essential and important basics in building and strengthening any relationships, no matter how much terrible life experience you've been experienced before, and how many hurt you've been got, so l have nothing to say if you don't trust me. As it's the most radical factor to strengthen our relationship, but it can't be satisfied with, so did it prove we're not as suitable to each other we supposed so originally?

l've never have the webcam to chat with anyone, and will refuse all the similar requests no matter face to anyone, l don't want to see anything strange thru the webcam, and don't want to prove myself in this way. As l told you before that l will just chat with my clients thru the QQ during the business hours so as to keep well in touch with them for business needed, l never do it in my sparetime, instead l prefer to call my friends out for fun and chat face to face, that's me! See?

l've been thought that maybe l can try and give you a surprise maybe, but l do hope you can get to know me much better, l'm a very pure girl that have never had the simlilar experience like you have, and your request did bring me a lot of pressure, l hate to be forced to do something l don't like to most, to be candid''

So, i do not know what to do, what do my brothers think of this? Do you think that all pictures that come thru Chnlove are photshopped? I do like this girl, but after my experiences i find it hard just to trust someone without direct contact just because she asks me to. A phrase comes to mind, 'Trust can not be given just by someones words, but their actions too' I do not want to be put thru the Chnlove ringer a third time, but if she is who she says she is, what if i'm blowing my chances on someone who could well be my soulmate?

Please any advise will be appreciated, thanks.

Andy....

[Philip]

l've never have the webcam to chat with anyone, and will refuse all the similar requests no matter face to anyone, l don't want to see anything strange thru the webcam, and don't want to prove myself in this way. As l told you before that l will just chat with my clients thru the QQ during the business hours so as to keep well in touch with them for business needed, l never do it in my sparetime, instead l prefer to call my friends out for fun and chat face to face, that's me! See?

Hi Andy,
When I'd been burned once, I started writing to four ladies. After about 4 EMFs, I told each of them that I would like to move to direct contact after the exchange of about 10 EMFs, and that, if that was a problem with any of them, then, regrettably, I would have to say goodbye. One disappeared immediately, which left me with three who agreed. Then I picked one, and it worked.
Only you know whether you can risk not having the webcam. If you can't, I would advise saying that. It's not just about trust, either. It's about building a relationship through looks and gestures and voices. My hunch is that she doesn't want you to see her. She's pretty tooled up with technology, and she may be the only woman in all of China who doesn't use QQ to chat to her friends. Ha ha! I think she has revealed her feelings by talking about seeing strange things through the webcam. - I think she's more worried that YOU'LL see strange things.
Ask her if she's heard of something called an internet cafe, and say that the minute either of you see anything STRANGE, you can run away, screaming.
More seriously, you have to make a decision about what you can live with. For me, I wouldn't be able to take even one more letter, let alone months of risking more disappointment. It's not nice to make ultimatums, but in this instance, things should become clearer.
Good luck,
Alex

[Sylvain D]

Well.
Maybe "talking" about the past is not the righteous thing to do, because everybody is different.
So, as I can read your message, the lady has "some nice character", because she says what's wrong, what she doesn't like to do, and for sure, man can understand it.
For sure, no webcam, no QQ, no phone sessions don't help... but maybe can you give her some time, and see how it would evolve before asking about it again.
However, that lady seems to be "honest" in her letter.
I'd give it a try before going there if I was you. But it's also your choice

[ron]

I may be reading this wrong I am not sure.But just a thought that some people when they hear about web cam take it wrong.They think on the gutter side and think a person wants web cam to do in appropriate things.She may have heard these stories I dont know like I said its just a guess.I explained to my lady it would be nice to see her smile and her eyes.And she could see mine.It would almost be like being there.Like I said its a guess.I did get a picture that didnt apear to be photo shopped.
                       Ron

[Voiceroveip]

My 2 cts:

Lady n°1: I included my QQ number in a letter after 5 or 6 EMFs and was promptly added, I didn't lose a word over it other than: if someday you would like to chat ... we chatted a lot but usually no cam. Unfortunately things did not work out and we broke up.

Lady n°2: Included QQ details after 1 month of writing, should be added tomorrow, we'll see. Again, I just said if you ever wanted to ...

It doesn't pay to put them under pressure, remember the thing about preserving face. Also telling them your dating history could be badly taken. I'm talking to 25-35 year olds, photoshop hasn't been an issue for me yet, the natural pics are in line with the rest.

[Vince G]

Ok, make some room here in this little circle. I'm not fully convinced she wrote that entirely. It sounded more like a combo of both her and the translator who might have put the bug in her ear not to do the cam or QQ so soon. (No EMF money in it). Let things die down for a while and bring it back in at a later date. Suggest a webcam at the agency? Move to QQ after that. She might have been on the fence about it and the agency pushed her to the other side. Give it more time (if you want).Like Voice and some others said, don't go into the last few women you talked to. I never do that. Even the locals will ask and I don't tell them anything except, "I'm divorced, enough about that".

[wilsbrough]

Thanks so far guy's.

A little more info for you. We have been very candid with each other from the start, She asked me about how many previous girlfriends i have had in the past and why we broke up, she has also told me about hers. We have not held back on anything so far. I sent her pics of me when i was in China, and she asked me the reason for my visit, so i told her, as i believe in complete honesty as we all know if you hide something from the start it can well come back and bite you in the arse right? And she has thanked me for my complete honesty.

With the QQ and webcam, i said i have heard about the agencies offering this service to the girls, and suggested if she had no webcam then maybe this was an option. i also said i do not need a webcam chat asap, but just at least once before i commit to buying my ticket, which i have said due to my finances and having no holiday left from work this year, the earliest would be in April next year. Also, she says she uses QQ on a regular basis with clients everyday at her work, but she has yet to add my contact id. Even if she wants to wait to use it, i would have thought she would have added it to hers by now, do you agree?

I suggested the webcam for the future as it would also make us feel closer to one another, and the first and main reason i gave was so i could see here smile and beautiful eyes, so i don't think it would have come across i wanted to do it for inappropriate things. I have also included small messages at the end of my letters a few times to our translator, and she too seems genuine and says she wants to do her best for me and this lady.

Andy...

[Hajo]

Andy,

To give you a real opinion I think I would need to read all the letters. You tell, that you write with her everyday. What are your feelings? I know its tough to get burned. But as you got burned, you have become an "unbeliever". You do not trust her. But how should she trust you if you do not trust her? Of course, there are some that want to cheat. But there are also some who don't.

You write, she told you about her taste of music and her hobbies before you did. And with her real life pictures, you have gotten more then many other brothers here during the same time of writing. I think it is a token of her to show that she is serious. Do it like Voice suggest. Send her your mail-address and your QQ-ID. She will add you when she is ready. I did it the same way with my wife. I send her my email-address and told her "write me when you are ready". Shortly after that I received her first private email. Nobody likes to be pushed. How would you feel if she would push you the same way?

No one of us can tell what is right or wrong with this lady, we can give our opinion. But the decision is yours. If it was my relationship, I think I would appologize and give it some time.

All the best wishes!

[wilsbrough]

Again, thanks for your advise and support guy's it is all very useful.

I'm glad the brotherhood is here to help, i wish i had discovered this site before my first visit to China. In answer to Hajo, yes i have become an 'unbeliever', but its not that i do not trust her, i know it's only been a month, but if you guy's had have seen our other emails to each other you would see i care for this girl very much, but like is say, its not about trusting her, but more to the fact i do not trust Chnlove one little bit, i do not think they have either ours or the girls interests at heart. This is one reason why i want to get away from the emf's so i know for sure that this girl who i'm talking to is really her and not some 'ghost' sending me the replies to generate more emf revenue. I don't think it is a language barrier that is stopping her wanting the direct contact, as her profile does say she has good English skills, but then again, so did the girl who i went to meet, and that turned out to be untrue.

Andy...

Ps. Maybe i should say that it's not that i don't want to trust her, i do. But i find it hard to trust anything now when it comes thru a third party, i.e, from the agencies or Chnlove....

[David E]

At some point in time, these EMF based relationships we undertake, with a lot of interference and "spin" from our "friends" at CHNLove !! must begin to grow and evolve. It is a normal and natural progression that two people who are genuine in their wish to know more about each other should want to see the real peson through QQ.

IMO...there cant be any reasonable excuse for avoiding this next step if you have shared many EMF's and both of you think you have a chance to take the relationship further.

To play on the "dont you trust me" issue may well be more "spin" from the translator.....they want to make you feel guilty for doubting...but keeps the EMF revenue stream going !

My advice...QQ or bolt !!

DavidE

[Willy The Londoner]

My own personal view on this is that anyone who has both work and friends on QQ I would give a miss to.  I had one relationship here here where QQ were coming in and being answered even whilst we were in bed!!

If the girl is heavy into QQ it will drive you mad as she will be QQing every where you are and you get to wonder just how many she is in contact with are other men.

What I would be concerned with is the point she made about having pressure put onto her.  Whenever I have heard that from someone here it means you aint going anywhere with the relationship and I suspect this is often just agency translator talk to put pressure on you to keep using EMF.  But that their commision on that is small fry to what the agency expects to collect from a successful marriage.  Last one I heard the lady has to pay agency 38500 rmb for a marraige plus 10,000 for initial meeting with you.

My advice to anyone receiving early emfs like you did Andy is to move on.  There are lots of women out there and if they are unwilling to speak on telephone then their English  is so poor that you will have difficulty in communicating face to face without an interpreter unless of course your Chinese is very good.  

Willy

[David5o]

Andy,

If you write every day, and you've been writing now for a month, that's 30 EMF's each way. I think it's now more than reasonable to be asking to move the relationship on to the next level don't you??
 
You've been honest enough to tell this lady about your past experiences, and about your fears. I don't think it's reasonable on her part to turn your honesty against you, by claiming you now don't trust her (the guilt trip scenario). If she thinks anything about you mate i would expect her to be only too willing to actually see you face to face on a webcam conversation, or short telephone conversations.

So you are faced with the same conundrum as many others here, is this your lady talking or the translator/agency talking??

Personally, i think that if she's not prepared under any circumstances to move your relationship on to that next level using other means of communication like the phone or QQ, not even at the agency, then i would be cutting my losses and moving on!! We have seen what happens when the relationship revolves solely around EMF's alone.

As far as i can see, ....it don't look good for you Andy.....


David.....

[maxx]

Andy I can see both sides of this.I can see the members saying yes If she won't QQ or web cam it is time to talk to someone else.I can also see what the other members think.That you haven't ben talking to this women long enough for it to progress to the next step.

I"m thinking what is your hurry?You have till April of next year.Give it another month and see where it goes.Give her and you sometime to know each other a little better.What have you really lost.By sticking with this women for another month.Maybe 150.00 dollers in Emf letters.

[David K]

Andy,
Heres my 02c worth
[1] On a practical level it seems to me that Chinese woman have a rather different mind set to Western woman.
Loss of face and/or peer evaluations seem high on the list.
Once I figured that, I said things like " I do not have a web cam. Would you like me to get one, so you can get to know more of me". She tentativly said "yes", and after a bit volunteered that she too had a cam and would I like to view :-)
Next I got a 5M USB extn cord, so I was able to show her my house and surrounds, which made her a lot more relaxed.  Now we communicate regularly on Yahoo, with cam and voice. No secrets; a good sign!

[2] I share your reservations about ChnLove or its agencies.
I suspect that they have created "dummy" black hole accounts when I have asked for EMAIL addresses in the past

[3] Of course the underlying issue is Trust.
IMHO as long as we are looking for warmth, caring and relief from loneliness outside of ourselves, we will be trying to make the "other" into the "answer", as they may be doing to us.
As you have obviously observed, this process has a high failure rate :-).  
I got to the stage (when I turned 40) that I realised the problem was within, not without, and then did what I needed to do by way of remedial work. Not entirely successfully, and its still an ongoing exercise. But its been helpful to learn to trust that things are unfolding just as they should :-)

And these are things that are known to chinese tradition:

" There is no need to run outside
  For better seeing
  Nor to peer from a window
  Rather abide at the centre of your being:
  For the more you leave it, the less you learn "

Lao Tze ~400 BCE   ( a long time ago!)

:icon_biggrin:

[brett]

Pah, don't take any rubbish about not having QQ. Everyone seems to have it, my lady can use it on her mobile phone.