Chinese Salaries

[brett]

Hi guys,

Wow, this morning my lady dropped a massive bombshell... her salary. It turns out she earns around 1000RMB a month. At first I couldn't believe this - I had to ask my fellow brothers in the shoutbox for confirmation. It turns out it is probably true.

I knew that average salaries in China were low, and that my lady has (in her words) a so-so job as an interior designer. But that salary is unbelievably low, given an average UK interior designer would be on around £19K.

I feel kind of bad now because I realise that her parents must have spent a significant sum on buying me some decent green tea and cooking a lavish feast. And even the cake my lady bought me as a gift must have cost a fair bit.

When I visited China I didn't think it was that cheap a country. By comparing prices of Coca-Cola, McDonalds, pot noodles, beer, train journeys and stuff I'd guess it is 3-4x cheaper than the UK. But I was surprised at the high prices in the swanky designer shopping malls - even I was put off by the prices of Jade jewellery. Hmm, the gulf between rich and poor is much larger than it is in the UK.

By comparing the amount of watermelons (10RMB in China, £3 in the UK) a person on an average salary earns it's clear the Chinese have a raw deal. My lady tells me that competition for jobs, be it shoe shiners or civil servants is severe.

Wow, my mind is truly blown. Even my little website business I run in my spare time earns 3-4x as much as my lady, so I could easily afford to employ her as a receptionist or something!

[wilsbrough]

I find that having been to a few countries within Asia. (not made it to Japan yet tho) I think the best way to describe the wealth situation, is a little like Dickensian England. Where you was rich if you was born into it, but if not, you was pretty much below the poverty level, and you'd pretty much had no chance of getting above the poverty level, unless you married into it.

Andy...

[Chong]

In Taishan / Kaiping, Guangdong Province ...

Per Month ...

Accountant ... 3,000 RMB
Hotel ( 5 Star ) Restaurant Manager ... 6,000 RMB
Hotel Security Guard ... 1,800 RMB
Doctor / Dentist ... 4,000 RMB
Waiter ... 2,000 RMB
Fisherman ... 600 RMB

Everything's relative regarding cost of living compared with the West. When my 5-star hotel bill came out to 17,000 RMB for 68 days, my lady thought it was overly expensive ( 5 month's salary ). I thought it was cheap ( $ 38 / day ). Everytime I say something's cheap/inexpensive, my lady brings me back to earth and says it's not cheap by her standards of living. It's almost like an insult to their way of living.

[Danny]

Brett, I know that feeling.

My good woman, in Wuhan, earns a similar amount to that, from teaching primary school age students.

I know some of the guys have had some bad experiences with gold diggers. But my experience is exactly the opposite.

The generousity of my good woman and her family, just shames me. When I was there, they wouldn't let me pay for anything: not the restaurants, not for the hotel room, not for the visits to the tourist sites, the bus fares, not anything.

I suppose it is has been said many a time, by Maxx and others . . . you go with expectations about how things will go and it always turns out much differently than you thought.

I know for most of us, when you are with someone who doesn't care much about you (like my woman from Zhuhai), you sort of get used to her not making any effort. Now with my woman from Wuhan, it's like night and day.

She was telling me how she went out and got her hair dyed when she knew I was coming and had a wave put through it, because she wanted a more "western" hairstyle.

And when we talk on Skype, her mother comes and brushes her hair while she talks to me so she will look good for me. It's only a small thing, but it makes me smile, and makes me feel all warm inside when I see it happen.

I really am a lucky guy *smiles*

[JimB]

My wife earns the average of $75.00 per week or about 500 yuan, as a Registered Nurse with over 22 years of experience.  She is also a physicians assistant in the OR. That is about 3900 USD per year.  Now when she lives in her room attached to the hospital she only pays 200 yuan a month, it would normally cost about 2500 yuan a month. If she does not live there she does not get the per diem so you really cant count it as part of her salary.  She also shares it with two other nurses.   Here in the USA she would earn over $75k with the same job. The minimum wage in the US is $290 for 40 hours or $7.25 per hour.  Now do you see why they think western men are all rich?  A person working in a convenience store with no training makes 4 times more than my wife does with her College degree and as a registered nurse.  Now price the food.  You talk about a watermelon being 10 yuan that is .68 cents in US dollars.  Here it is about 3 to 4 dollars depending on what store or if you buy from a road side vendor.  That is 5 times more than there. Food is relatively cheap there, maybe not 5 times but at least 2 to 3 times more here.  Housing is expensive there.  Yes their salaries are low but their cost of living is also less for the basic items. Food and basic clothing. Like Chong said it is all relative.    Where it gets them is in the extras. Computers, TV's, cable, internet, etc.   My wife says the same thing, if I think it is cheap she says it is very expensive.  I bought her a bike, $48 USD.  She thought it was expensive and she did not want me to buy it, even though she really wanted it.  She asked me at least 5 or 6 times if I really thought it was cheap enough to buy.  I told her of course it is, so she let me buy it for her.  You would have thought it was a Cadillac.  Here that same bike goes for about $300. It is the kind that folds up to put it in the trunk of a car or taxi.  She can even take it on the train to Wuhan when she goes. She just puts it in the storage closet on the train.

[David E]

This is where it can get very confusing trying to compare Chinese salaries and Chinese lifestyles with our Western model.

Those of us who have made the journey and lived among them know that their BASIC life is adequate...they can live, eat and afford the things for a good BASIC life.

What they dont have is the availability of disposable income...via cash or Credit Cards or easy Store Credit to indulge themselves in all the "needs and wants" that categorise our Western life.....cameras, slr's, vcr's, plasma tv's, new cars  new phones, ipods, etc, etc, etc.

This is what is slowly emerging in their economy...the release of pent up demand for the consumer goods that are" essential" for a happy life..........although there are some that would challenge our Western view of what constitutes a happy life....maybe it is not measured by all the possessions we feel we must have.

Things like fridges, washing machines and more useful and labour saving gadgets are becoming more and more available. But the National psyche still avoids high debt levels at the individual level...but maybe they will get that bad habit from us...maybe not.

To make any comparisons between our lifestyle and theirs purely on relative wages is flawed. It IS possible to get a watermelon for 8 RMB....but in Aus it would cost $5. Here we CANNOT buy a house for less than $600,000, or an apartment for less than $350,000.

But our average wage is about $500 per week, and very few people earn this...99% earn far more. the average wage would impose the same restrictions on Aus folk as the average wage does in China...that is, you can live on it, but not much room left for any "indulgencies " or luxuries.....in any event we have grown used to haveing and being able to afford almost anything we "want"....usually via debt....and there must be some serious doubt whether much of what we "want" does a lot to improve the quality of our life. Easy for me to say that, I know...not so easy when you dont have some of the things we take for granted.

Please let us hope that the Chinese are forever smart enough to avoid this meaningless drive towards possessions at all costs.

That they have done so up 'till now is remarkable, and is but one of the reasons they retain some real qualities in life...thats why we look for Chinese partners...right ??

DavidE

[Irishman]

My two monthly pay examples..
Ling 1 - senior accountant (she has a team of junior accountants under her) 3000 RMB in Guangzhou
Ling 2 - manager in a telecoms company 4000-5000 RMB in Tianjin (depending on the amount of overtime she does, she works 6+ days a week most weeks from what I can gather)

These are both relatively senior positions but the wages just don't compare at all.
The gulf there is truly enormous, there are malls there that are extravagant by western standards with prices to match and then there is the rest. There is no Chinese middle class it seems - just hugely upper, much lower and even lower.
I expect over time this will change as the economy changes.

[JimB]

I agree David.  Things dont make you happy. First you have to know how to be happy with your basic life, then enhance it with "things".  For example, when I am down, I get on my bike and take a ride.  That cheers me up, just being on the motorcycle cruising.  If I didnt have the bike, maybe watching a sunset from on top of the mountain.  One of the happiest times we had was one night when I played a stupid Michael Jackson, doing his dances and singing his songs.  No cost, nothing.  It is the night that broke open Qingqing with me. She still comments on it. I think in this country we sometimes forget how to be happy with just ourselves.  Staying home and reading a good book instead of camping in front of the 52" plasma TV. Or spending all night in front of the computer instead of going out and taking a walk.  I am as guilty as anyone with that.  When in China instead of watching tv, we went out for a walk after dinner. Enjoying the park and the people doing their things.  I know some of the guys have commented on people out dancing in the park, I saw this in our apartment complex park and in a lot of parks, doing exercises.  No cost, no "things" just people being together. The more affluent we get the more we tend to forget those kinds of things and focus on earning more money so we can have a bigger house, or car or whatever.  George Carlin had a great routine about "stuff".
I have seen some of the changes in China already.  Just look at the diminishing bicycles. Scooters and mopeds have become the thing now.  The first time I went to China I asked a guy there why I did not see more bicycles.  He said we now earn more money so we buy cars.  Now I know they cannot afford to go out and pay cash for a car.  Maybe they have saved enough for a scooter.  A moped in Beijing started out at 1500 rmb. $220 USD. So they are becoming used to debt. I saw signs for credit cards.  Even more the last time than the first time.  That was just a year apart.  I also noticed the difference in numbers of mopeds and scooters over bicycles in just one year.  Now that is in Beijing and Wuhan. Mainly Beijing.  So I believe debt is coming to them.  They still have a sort of Debtors prison there, but that is passing also.  I believe in 5 to 10 years the average Chinese will have learned how to put himself in debt.  Not as large as here maybe but still big by their standards.  Consumerism is on the rise there.  Look at the number of computer stores, TV stores and appliance stores.  Look at the number of malls, even upscale malls.  I was in a China bank, we waited for over 30 minutes to get to a teller. There were 10 tellers plus officers in the back.  From the looks of things most people there were getting loans. we could see them coming from the Loan officers to the tellers to get their money. All of them were younger adults.  They are learning how to become middle class. Not with savings, but with debt.

[David5o]

Jim,

You wouldn't believe how much China has changed since i first arrived on it's shores!!
It wasn't 20 years ago that Beijing was virtually dead before midnight, .....now it's like any western city, a 24/7 hive of activity. And that will now happen in every other minor city in the very near future.....

Salaries
As far as salaries goes, our Chinese junior Engineers were earning approx' 1800 RMB/month, and
our Chinese experienced Engineers were earning approx' 4100-4400RMB/month.
As for a hotel restaurant manager on 6000 RMB/month, .... it would have to be a hugely hugely successful establishment!!!  Our accountants were on around 1600-1750 RMB/month...

Those expensive Malls are popping up everywhere these days, ... but i found many of the establishments within them, rarely lasted too long, maybe 12 months to 18 months. I've also seen a few of these Malls revert to regular type Malls but still retaining an up market feel about them, and seemed to become quite a lot more popular too....  

David....

[Irishman]

The pace of change  is utterly breathtaking.
Blink and you missed it. Its the industrial revolution on steroids there.
There is huge potential for money to be made by smart business men there as a result.
The only thing that could derail this juggernaut is Africa imho
Africa  is the next cheapest place to do business, India -> China -> Africa...logical globalisation move.
A steady regime in an Africa country with tax breaks for western companies to set up could reap massive benefits and I have read that the Chinese government is investing there too - they want to be the w/eastern company that gains there.
Africa in general is one big mess. I deal with most African countries on a daily basis in work and I'm continually amazed how the whole edifice doesn't topple over such is the incompetency and apathy that people in positions of responsibility appear to have there in general..
Developing solar technologies also offer Saharan countries massive electricity exportation.

We are living in interesting times.
The next 10 years may see the world change as much as the last 100.

[Willy The Londoner]

A doctor with 16 years experience in both pharmacy and A& E earns 6500 rmb a month for a 8.30 - 5.30 5 day week.

Everyone where my lady works all do a 62 hour week for just 1000 rmb a month.   They work a 13 day fortnight but is calculated by having every Sunday afternoon off - not a full day.

Now I have not yet seen signs of corruption here.  People talk about being ripped of by the Chinese - not come across it here - it is is it is out of sight

Red envelope passing that is normal amongst the Chinese but that is only given the wealthy more.  

 But Africa is different.  I was in the most corrupt country in the world other than Haiti, which was Nigeria ( not my opinion the United Nation's )   A department would get 10,000,000 to spend on redoing a section of road.  The department head would authorise maybe 250,000 to patch up what was there and pocket the rest.   A poor school teacher earning basic wages get elected to the city council - within one year he has a big house and car and a couple of servants!!  

It was admitted by the government last year that of 125 billion dollars given in aid over 100 billion had just disappeared!!!!

In Nigeria corruption is visible on every street.  But have not seen signs of it here.

Willy

I feel kind of bad now because I realise that her parents must have spent a significant sum on buying me some decent green tea and cooking a lavish feast. And even the cake my lady bought me as a gift must have cost a fair bit.

The other thing to learn Brett is that the Chinese are the most generous people that you will ever meet.  They will often spend many days food money on entertaining a guest.  Often money that they may not be able to afford.

Willy

[Johnboy]

David E's commentary on the futility of comparing Chinese salaries and Chinese lifestyles with our Western model - and I would factor in to that our, so-called, Western values - is very well-put and extremely well-articulated.  The paramount principle of course, is that in time we cease to own or control our possessions and they come to own and control us.

Let us all share David's hope "that the Chinese are forever smart enough to avoid this meaningless drive towards possessions at all cost."

[David S]

Very interesting discussion.  I've come to learn that the world's, and especially the west's economy is all smoke and mirrors.  The dollar has value because we believe it has value.  This is why when the numbers for the Consumer Confidence rating comes out every month that the economists pay attention.  This is what drives new home sales, orders for durable goods and all the other economic indicators.  Yes the people in the US can buy lots of things in other countries for pennies on the dollar, but the real measure is ratio comparison.  How much does it cost someone for rent or mortgage compared to their monthly income?  Also you can compare the monthly income to how much you pay for groceries, and other necessities.  It is true that a debt driven economy will have prices that are higher, thus requiring wages to increase, when wages increase people have more money to buy more stuff.  It is a vicious cycle.  

I think one of the key things David E hit on is contentment.  I see the example in my own life.  My father was self employed and realized the value of his income.  I had an uncle who made a LOT less but his family was always happy, playing sports together, cards, and other things they did that didn't require money.  We were all raised to understand it's not about stuff, but the people you surround yourself with.  Because like in the Dickens stories, what good is money if you don't have people you love to share it with?

Just my thoughts. >smile<

[Paul Todd]

China's salary system has been reclassified into position rankings, whereby salary levels have been broken down into a basic salary, position salary, bonus salary and salary dependant on length of service, the calculating of pensions has also been revamped. This surprised me, it's from cri.com:-
 
Ninety-eight-year-old grandpa Du lives in an ordinary apartment building with his family in Qingdao, Shandong Province, in eastern China. Along with his son, daughter-in-law and his granddaughter, the three generations are sharing a quiet, idyllic life.As a worker in a local fuel company before retirement, grandpa Du now lives totally off his monthly pension. Talking about the changes in salaries, grandpa Du has a lot to say."Before the foundation of the People's Republic of China, people felt life was insecure. However, things were completely different after 1949. I retired in 1975, back then salaries were not high, like 70 to 80 yuan a month, but enough to live off.My pension has been raised a couple of times since my retirement. It has been raised to over 1,700 yuan a month  and the services here are quite good"

There is also a housing security system in China, called the "housing provident fund" is composed of two parts. A certain percentage of money from an employee's monthly salary is set aside for housing. Meanwhile, their employer has to offer up the same amount of money, deposited into the same bank account. People can withdraw this amount of money for the purpose of purchasing, decorating or renting an apartment.So as always here it's not quite as it first appears! Governmental statistics state that the average Chinese workers salary is 13.5 percent higher than last year and according to the findings of the" 2008 Chinese happiness index"

Men feel as happy as women. People older than 60 feel happier than other people and people with higher education qualifications are happier than those with lower education qualifications. Although many people think "marriage is the tomb of love", married people are much happier than single people. Income is a factor that people can't shake off when they talk about happiness. In this survey, people with a monthly salary of 2,000-4,000 yuan are happier than those earning 6,000-8,000 yuan every month. However, people with an income of 15,000-20,000 yuan a month are happiest.

China, and its role in the world around it, defies simple categorisation. To look closely at the country is to realise how little you really comprehend it, in all its complexity and contradictions. It is of a vastness and singularity that defies casual understanding.You really do have to let go of all the things you think you know about China.

[brett]

Yes an interesting discussion here. I think my lady's salary is way to low, but she says that good (or even so-so) jobs are hard to come by in Yichang. I guess this is the same in the UK with most of the high paying jobs being in London (although it's less the case now than it was 10+ years ago).

One of her friends is studying to become a civil servant. I also know that if you have good English skills you're much better positioned for a better job.

I don't know what sort of income her parents live on. They are both retired now and I guess they have some sort of pension. Their apartment block is, er, old, but their apartment is very smart. They have a fridge/freezer and a flat screen TV. I guess they don't spend much on non-food stuff as their apartment is too small to accumulate stuff.

As to where China goes from here, well I'm not yet convinced their economy will continue to boom. There is an awful lot of speculative development, and a lot of near empty expensive shopping malls. China has largely got rich off the back of the Western consumer getting into debt to buy consumer goods, bigger houses etc. That has now gone, maybe forever, and I don't yet see Chinese internal demand taking over.