General Thread For This and That!!....

[David E]

I gotta have my 2 cents worth in this debate.....

You Guys have been discussing "SYMPTOMS" but have not got close to discussing the real disease....

The ultimate goal of the new life model is based on the rabid escalation of "consumerism"...(which is more like a new Religion than an economic evolution) and was to guarantee ALL people a level of prosperity that was only achievable if we consumed and consumed and consumed...thus we could have everything we ever wanted (and were promised by successive Governments) without any downside risk...big house, big car, new home, flat screen Tv, Iphone, Ipod blah, blah,  blah.

At the same time, the share market became a prime vehicle for Institutions and Mums and Dads to make "money" by buying and selling shares, thus shares became a new currency. In participating in this new "prosperity, Governments borrowed squillions of dollars to prop up the stressed infrastructure that consumerism fuelled (high demand for medical, educational, military, social and all these other programmes that promised all of us Paradise on Earth). Therefore, shares in Businesses soon lost their intrinsic worth and became a worthless commodity....who ever heard of being able to make money on gambling that a share (that you had not paid for) would go up or down (without any reference to the competance, or otherwise of the respective Company)......it is just not sustainable over the long hall...it is an economic oxymoron. A buiness performance became the last consideration in its share price, whereas it always MUST be the first.

The ever growing Beaurocracy needed to service this magic dream demanded that more and more people became Public Servants (paid out of Government debt) to administer this nightmare.....thus fuelling ever bigger deficits to pay for the myth.....Keynsian economics gone mad !!!!!!!!

Governments, Business, people have been seduced over the past 20 years or so into believing that you CAN make huge money and live a gret life of luxury WITHOUT ever having to pay for it, without ever having to do "stuff" like hard work, even more so, that somebody else will pay for it.

Well, the bubble had to burst eventually because money, assets and possessions were all being propped up artificially by huge debts and just kept alive while we were consuming like there was no tomorrow...it just is not sustainable and has been proven many times in History...but we never learn.

Believe me, we have a lot longer way down before we reach the bottom of this particular pit...just see what is happening this week in Europe...this is the future for all economies unles we stop wishing that we could all be rich without doing some hard work.....and Governments and Business should stop promising we can

[Arnold]

I can not believe it! I was writing into my Yahoo Notepad (which I was then to copy and post here) about what I think the CarMakers are doing to us average Folk over the 40 years that I have witnessed while in this Business. I spend about one hour writing in detail how they are emptying our pockets and filling theirs, all in the name of cleaner air and better mpg. This alone should be considered a crime against us Citizens, but we are just taking their shaft ones more.
Anyway, I was in the middle of it and something/somebody ( I'm sure it wasn't me) just cleaned my page like.. you can't say that! I've seen this happen with some Facebook comments I wanted to make the same way and wooosh.. gone. Free Speach? Ha .. they. whoever it is/was, doesn't want any part of that.

Awwwwwwrr!

[maxx]

Guys I'm really impressed.You all cove rd all the high points.Where did you learn all this at?Did you read it in the paper see it on the TV.Read it on the enternet?Did your neighbor tell you.

So we all agree the recession is still going on right? And it is the American  federal government fault? I do agree to a certain degree with what you all have posted.

So why is it still going on? The banks have ben bailed out.The car companies have ben bailed out.I can go down town tonight.And get financed on  a new car.That is so expensive.That I would never be able to make the payments.Let alone pay the insurance.Or tax title and licence.Maybe it is because like John said they deregulated the banks.(John I'm thinking it was in the Regan years.I'm not certain so I could be wrong So I'm thinking that they are trying to drain the last bit of money out of us.

David E. what you posted I have seen first hand.Bigger better faster more expensive.I know a guy that leveraged one thing against another.For 12 years till the recession hit.His company went belly up.He stole money.He stole his employees retirement fund.He didn't pay taxes.He is still a free man.Living the life of luxury.He has never seen the inside of a jail cell.And he probably never will.Also I agree with your statement about people wanting the handout.Instead of getting off there tail and actually working for a living.They passed a law in Alabama last summer.That scared off all the migrant workers from Mexico.So when the crops were ready to be harvested.The farmers had nobody to work the crops.They advertised in the papers and on the news.How desperately they needed workers.It didn't do any good.Allot of those farmers had to plow there crops under.

Phillip I really like your post and your thoughts on the matter.I used to work at a GM dealership.I worked there for about 17 years.Before that.I worked for a combo dealership.We sold the GM line of Vehicles.And the Dodge line of vehicles.and all of the minor brands of GM.And with Dodge it was the same thing.Phillip did you know that for 2 years running.GM sold more cars then anybody else in the world.If I remember correctly it was 2008.And 2009.Shanghai Buick pushed gm sales way above what anybody.else sold.So why did GM need a buy out?

Willy I read a book called London is burning.If you can find the book it is a good read.It told in graphic detail.How Much the Brits suffered in WW 2.Unfortunately I don't remember the author.Yes allot of German and Japanese scientist ended up in America after WW 2.Yeah they lived the life of luxury.The Japanese war crime trials were a joke.General Douglas MacArthur let them all off.Except for some foot soldier.That they hung.Just for good measure.Oh and I almost forgot.MacArthur turned Okinawa into a military base/ brothel.He did the same thing in Tokyo.And the Philippines.

So all of this doesn't answear the one burning question.Why are we still dealing with this?

[shaun]

I can simplify it all in two words.    Greed and Control.

[maxx]

Shaun you think Greed and control is keeping the economey in the dumps?

[Robertt S]

GREED which leads to SPECULATION to CONTROL the market!

Personally I think speculation is what is keeping the economy in the dumps. It seems like everytime a camel farts in the Middle East,  Wall Street cringes and the speculators get a woody, effectively stalling or slowing the economic recovery. I think it will really get interesting here about Sep-Oct when the political gloves come off totally.

[Willy The Londoner]

Of course greed caused the problems. Most people were living above their means. regardless of their position in life's struggle. They wanted everything today. So the borrowed, new house, new car run up cards etc etc.  There is only so far that you can stretch a bubble.

Then there is the greed from above.  What is ten million - I need twenty then 50 then a billion and so it goes on. Some have more money than they ever could spend.  Why do they want more. just greed.

Even government are guilty of this.  I can remember the debate that went on for ages in the US in recent times about increasing the governments debt capabilities as pensions etc could mot be paid if the USA defaulted.  Why - billionaires do not need 1000 plus millions tax them half of what they are worth. . Multi millionaires take 25% of their total wealth.  Jail them that try to hide it away. No bail awaiting trial no appeals allowed just jail them.

This is not just an American sympton it is the World Over.  Greed rather than need has caused these problems and will continue to do so until some one at the top has the balls to stand up and say 'ENOUGH IS ENOUGH' But then those at the top are normally the wealthy buggers who are more than happy with the bottom 99% paying for their greed.

Willy

[shaun]

Yes I do think greed and control are the two key factors.

Some of you know what is happening in my life right now and is the main reason I am not on this site as much, but I'll try to explain my reasoning of the two points above without revealing to much.

There is a little greed in all of us.  We all want more, we want more out of life, we want more things, and we want a higher status.  That is normal but there is an unhealthy greed that is wanting more at the expense of others.

Let me explain a little.  Some of you know that I had to close down my store because of the economy.  I've been trying to sell off some of my stock but haven't had much luck doing it.  I took a 26ft box truck of furniture and decor to an auction and tried to auction everything off at a decent price but what happened was more of a blood bath.  I got angry and pulled the plug on it.  Several of the dealers, one in particular tried to encourage me to let them continue to bid.

Here is what the one individual said to me.  He said, you don't understand, most of us do not need what you are selling.  Me personally I have five large warehouses full of things to sell that I can't even get into my showroom because it is full.  So I asked him why he kept buying and he gave me two reasons.  The first was to completely eliminate me as any future competition and the second was buy things as low as he could for the future.

The second reason I understand to a point but to buy something that cost me $100.00 wholesale for $1.00 is excessively greedy.  But it is the way of the world.  In that example you see both greed and control.

On a side note  I took a could of items that I was to load in the back of the truck, set them in the middle of the parking lot and set them on fire.  One person asked me why and I said to make a point.  That was taking a little control back and it made me feel good.

A note on speculative market.  Why the American government allowed the speculators to speculate on oil prices is beyond me.  Since it happened our economy has tanked.

I won't say more about governmental abuses because I can't without becoming political AND I would begin to foam at the mouth again.

[RobertBfrom aust]

We are lucky in Australia that we have been able to supply wanted commodities to Asia to help keep the recession away , but without these items we would also be in the same sinking canoe , however secondhand items here are in the same boat , I wanted another lounge suite for a muck around room so I paid the princly sum of $16.50 for a 3 seater and a 2 seater couch complete with a fold out bed on which the matress has never been used , and pre flat screen T V's go out with the hard rubbish as not even the op shops will take them , regards Sujuan and Robert .

[Willy The Londoner]

Send it all to China. Everything here has a value. Even Me!!!!!

Willy

[JohnB]

Forbes Thought Of The Day
“ He is always a slave who cannot live on little. ”
— Horace


Willy, maybe America can trade Mississippi & Alabama for debt relief.

[David E]

Shaun

Your points are particularly valid....but I am not sure that "greed" in itself is responsible for the total economic balls-up mostofthe World isexperiencing.

I believe it is more a naieve view by the population who have been brainwashed by successive Governments, Big Business, slick advertising and mass media saturation that it is everybody's RIGHT to have a life of perfect health, filled with every possible luxury....without any effort "just sign here' !!!!!

While in reality, such a life can only belong to a very few...whether you call these few- irrelevant, crooks, justlucky, hard workers or criminals..it matters little.

We have been led to believe that anything less than perfect in our life is unacceptable and that just "sign here" and it will all be made good for you.

Is it any surprise that the average Joe desperately wants to believe this myth...and will do whatever "they" say in a hope that it will all come true...WITHOUT effort on his part ?

The riots in Europe and elsewhere are a protest by a mass of average people who have had it too good for too long, and done it all on somebody else's money. In fact most of the debt that the Western World is now being buried in came from the dollar and cent savings of the average Chinese worker..........

It happened to the Greeks 5000 years ago, the Romans 2000 years ago and is happening again. You cant survive long term unless most of the population does meaningful and productive work and gets their hands dirty  ...when nearly 60 % of the workforce are Public Servants who do nothing but administer the current crop of rules and regulations, then you are in deep s**t because that is not real work !!!.

Added to which, 25 % of the population is now considered too old to work (and this problem will continue to grow)....is it not difficult to see why everybody can only have the promised life by mountains of future debt....there's nobody left to do the "real" work.

[Willy The Londoner]

Forbes Thought Of The Day
“ He is always a slave who cannot live on little. ”
— Horace


Willy, maybe America can trade Mississippi & Alabama for debt relief.

Come on  be serious - even Haiti could afford both.

Willy

[shaun]

I agree with what you said David.  I'm feeling very anti-government here this morning so I would like to rant about it a while.

Government employees are people who have high salaries and do very little for them.  They fill their productivity quota for the day which is set very low. They create laws and rules to suppress business from growing.  For the government employee it is job security and for the business it is more massive regulation and paperwork.  Unfortunately large companies can absorb a lot of the government abuse; small businesses cannot.  Most small businesses who survive do it illegally by no declared cash sales.

Governments tell the masses that they do these things for the good of the people; to protect them.  The tell the unsuspecting masses that corporations do not want to pay their fair share in taxes.  It isn't that big business does not want to pay taxes it is true that they want to control the amount of taxes they pay.  Many American do not understand embedded taxes which large corporations do.

The bottom line on this issue is that the American Politicians run on a platform of fairness for all people.  It on the surface sounds good but is impossible to do.  Whats more the politicians will not govern in this manner.  What the American government should be doing is running on and governing by opportunity.  I think Ronald Reagan understood that the best. (Now I am not trying to get political here I'm only using Reagan as a reference to governing by opportunity.)

There have been a few people in this country that have been pushing and idea called the, "Fair Tax."  I could go on for hours about it but the main reason the American Government will not do it is because it would eliminate a lot of their control over businesses and people and secondly it would mean a massive lay off of unneeded governmental employees.

Another thing crippling this country financially is pensions.  Don't get me wrong, I love them but there are people retiring who are better off than when they were working.  Smart? Yes it is smart but it us ruining this country financially.  Those who are getting the most retirement band for the buck are...  you guessed it... retired government employees.

We can't take away their pensions and I would never suggest that we should but the government should be learning form their mistakes and changing things for the future but they won't do that.

But the things that really pisses me off about the American Government this morning is their taking away my constitutional right to pursue happiness.  Right now that pursuit would be to have a lovely Chinese woman whose name is Peggy asleep in bed in the next room wondering why the bed is getting colder because I am on the internet typing this drivel.   Nuf said.

[maxx]

Ok so I think who ever was going to post on this has posted and has stated there opinion.I think you all have done a good job.And covered everything that. I have ever read.about the ongoing troubles.

So I think it is time to tell the rest of my story.Like I said before the GM dealership I worked for was just way over extended.They guy who owned the place.Had 2 airplanes,3 boats,6 rental properties,2 storage buildings filled with toys and furniture.A condo in Durango,A luxury house at Navajo lake And a none operational ranch in Kirtland.That he sunk probably 1.2 million into.Just so he could have someplace else to play.And he owed his brother in law 6.8 million

So when the economy crashed.He couldn't get anybody financed to buy a car.Then the government comes along and bails the banks out.And bails GM out.By the time the government came along.It was to late for my employer.He had everything mortgaged against everything else.So he was behind on the payments.So his brother in law takes the company stocks.And sells them to another car dealer.All the toys and the houses.Are in the dealerships inventory.So my former employer goes to court at least 3 times a week.To get what he thinks is his stuff back.He will probably end up getting it all back.

So we have established that the banks were bailed out.And the guys at the top of the banking empire got there huge bonuses.For putting us in this mess in the first place.And none of them went to court or to jail.So all is good in there little slice of paradise.

I have read every post.Since I posted the question.I read about Shaun and Vince,And Mike.I really feel bad for thees guys.And all the people who have lost jobs and houses.I think they are all victims of a big propaganda scheme.Why a propaganda scheme.Because I seriously don't think the economy is as bad as everybody thinks it is.I can't tell you why the media is doing this.Or why the federal government is doing this.Maybe it is a greed and control thing Like Shaun and David were talking about.


There are 15 oil and gas wells.Between my house and the first stop light headed into town.There all shut down.Why? because they need to push the price of oil up.To line somebodies pockets.My friend is a truck driver for a major oil company.He has worked so much.In the last 5 years.That we haven't ben able to go sailing together in 5 years.There is 2 companies in town.That have permanent help wanted signs.In there driveways.One sign I know as ben posted for well over ten years.I know half a dozen people.Who have worked for the company.They haven't said anything really bad.They just said the guy who owns the place.Doesn't pay what the industries demands.So they went to other companies making better money.

I have 2 different jobs.I'm a personell assistant.For a elderly lady.And I sell landscaping jobs.For a Limey friend of mine.In 2010 I found 55,000 in landscaping jobs.For my friend.In 2011 I found 155,000 in landscaping jobs.So far this year I'm at 18,000.And I'm working on a couple of other customers.That should be around 30,000 each.

My wife has some friends that own a restaurant in Bloomfield NM. We go there every Saturday or Sunday.The place is always packed.From 11:00 am to 9:00 pm.In the 3 years that we have ben going there.They have never had a slow weekend.There are 2 Mexican restaurants in town owned by the same family.It is the same for them.They open about 6:00am and close about 9:00 pm.Both restaurants are packed.They built and opened the second restaurant in the last 2 years.

I have a friend who lives in a real small town in Texas.She works as a parts manager.At a mom and pop airport.She is so busy.That she couldn't take time off work.To have a operation.Her boss gave her a laptop.And made her work at home.After she had the operation.Now remember this is a mom and pop airport.They have no government contracts.The runway is to short for military aircraft.This little hick town is a hour drive from anywhere.

So What I'm thinking is that the media drowns us in this doom and gloom shit.And they tell us how big business and the government is stealing are lively hood.Until people start believing it.Then companies don't hire employees.So when they do have customers.They can't help there customers.The customer gets mad.And does there business somewhere else.So the company that just downsized because they heard the economy is bad.Has just lost another customer.And there getting ready to close the doors.And they lay the rest of there employees off.Then the banks are foreclosing on there house.And this poor employee has just became another statistic.

A man owns a hotdog stand.He has the best hotdogs in the world.You can get any kind of hotdog you want.Any way you want it.The man is making money hand over foot.The man has so many customers.That he has to hire some help.One day the mans son.Comes to visit.The kid sees his dad's business.And how well it is doing.The kid turns to his dad and says.Gee dad don't you know that there is a recession on.You need to cut back on your over head.So the man lays his helper off.And starts buying cheaper hotdogs.And he shortens the menu.You can now only get a couple of different kinds of hotdogs

So after a couple of months.The kid goes to see his dad again.The old man is just setting around doing nothing.The kid looks at his dad and says.Gee dad what happend to your hotdog stand.The old man looks at his kid and says.Gee son don't you know that there is a recession on.

I know this post is running long.And I hope I haven't lost anybody.What I'm trying to tell you all is.That things aren't bad until somebody tells you that there bad.and if they get enough people believing things are bad.Then they really do become bad.