RULES.......take 2

[David E]

Despite the large BUMP we had when we had one go at trying to make some sense out of any sort of rule that would help Bros to better understand the point at which the use of EMF's was getting to the Red-flag stage and maybe even in to scam, we never got to explore enough viewpoints to seriously address the issue.

I am sure that we all know it is one of the big ticket questions that get asked time and time again..."am I being scammed......when should I get off EMF's"

So with your permission I would like to re-open the question and get as much feedback as possible...maybe there is a rule here, maybe not...but the subject is worth exploring.

In summary from where we got to last time:

We seem to agree, at some point in time there is a PROBABILITY (not a certainty) that we are being taken for a ride with endless exchanges of EMF's that are going nowhere.

We seem to think that it is difficult to put a time frame on a relationship that is developing.

We seem to think that to put a number on the EMF quantity is fraught with the same difficulty.

We have enough evidence to know that the practise of "gouging" us with EMF's that are fake/fluffed/ does happen with some Agencies.

We have enough evidence to know that there is a strong resistance to getting natural photos and QQ or face-to-face time with some Agencies/Ladies

On the other hand.........

There are some Bros who have managed their whole relationship from first contact to happily married entirely on EMF's

There are some Agencies that seem to be very easily disposed to use QQ or such...and many who resist it.

So I would ask for opinions as to whether or not there seems to be a need for a rule, or something tangible that Newbies (and Oldies) can use as a guide as to when to begin to get suspicious about the length of the EMF correspondence.

Can I please ask that we dont get hostile about this question...it is only meant for some research and to make our Forum more valuable.

So dont jump all over me this time...........because you all know it is a very topical question and gets asked a lot...and we dont have any where near as good a reply to it as , for instance, we have with the Maxx 24 hour rule.

Acknowlegement to Ronan who thought of the concept...and thanks in advance for all the replies that will arrive.

DavidE

[brett]

When to get off EMFs? My opinion is that when you are sufficiently interested in one lady you will stop talking to others. That is a good time to move away from EMFs being the sole means of communication. It took me about 5 EMFs to realise my lady was special. After that a Skype session established that she looked like her photos and what her voice sounded like, her level of English, and QQ established a lot about her personality.

Of course this may not suit everyone - plenty of guys keep several ladies on the go but this really would melt my brain.

I think our problem is also that agencies have wildly different operating practices. In my case our agency is great, and my lady offered her contact details without me having to buy them through chnlove. Not all agencies would do this.

Beyond that there are so many variables (lady's English level, lady's job, computer literacy of man and lady, lady's discomfort with not knowing English, lady's comfort with the EMF system etc. etc. etc.) that a cast iron rule is difficult.

Finally I'd just like to add that a girl in work knows a guy who got his Thai wife simply through sending letters to each other. They'd never met in person before they married and yet they've been together for years :icon_cheesygrin:.

[Scottish_Rob]

I am the last person to vent on here...

However I can see merits in what David is trying to achieve.  As with what you say Brett about all the variables, this too I can totally understand.

But I also believe that there should be some sort of 'time' limit.  As you know I suffered as well as others through this system of just Emf's.  I can I suppose take some of the blame as I have already said, I saw the red flags and either choose or was blind to them?

If I was now starting over in Chinalove, and remember I read everything before starting (I would again), then I WOULD definately set my self some time limit, be it 2 months or 5 months, which by any streach of the imagination is time enough for 2 people to get to know each other.  This is not because I have already been ther, IT is because it's well documented that it HAPPENS

I am going to give you an example of something here.  I was in touch with a lady in Lionning for 2 months before Keren.  Within a MONTH WE KNEW (possibly) everything we could about each other.  We had spoken about a webcam visit with each other and she was agreeable  This lady I must give her, her just dues, she approached her father on the 8th week and I got the same result as I got with Keren (who kept telling me 'not ready, can't go to internet cafe, not safe'.  Cost to me a bit of money, well about 40 emf's worth?  Cost with Keren a fortune.  To someone who does not earn much (and I mean Much), that is not fine.  But also, how can you 'cost' the emotional disappointment and hurt you feel when it happens after so long?

Don't get me wrong I very probably will do this again, because I'm stupid... but also... because some people just don't learn.  i mentioned something in a post many months ago, and I said that Chnlove should have it in their contracts with the ladies, that they MUST do some other form of contact.  Unfortunately this cannot be done because it may be hard to implament, but I STILL believe that if a company as large as Chnlove is serious about making money, then I am positive they would get a lot more people...More people, more revenue, simple stats prove this theory...

[Brian Mc]

Greetings Brothers,

Well David E you are either a glutton for punishment or a very persistent soul ( yes I am messing with you).

I think a guide or reference would be a good idea. For many the problem is that the issues remain from the first go round.  Every man and every lady is different.  Each has a different tolerance level for what they can commit to or put up with .  Add in shady agencies and translators, men who demand to much too soon and scare the ladies, or ladies who jump to the marriage before the first date, and it becomes extremely difficult to set anything down firmly.  Also each man here and lady too for that matter is going to base things on their own perceptions and experiences, and as we all know what works for one may not work for the next.

Also our comfort level with the english language and also that of your lady and even teh translator can seriously affect the outcome.  Yes a webcam makes it much easier to see who your lady is, what she looks like some body and facial language etc, but in the end its still a translator interpreting both way s for the lady.  If your translator is honest and has good english skills a webcam can be a wonderful thing, however if the translator is not skilled or is working from a different agenda a webcam can be a difficult painful process.

Also lets not forget the time difference.When a webcam was convenient for Zhen at 8:30 pm it was most certainly inconvenient for me at 6:30am alberta time or 5:30am BC time.  For the lady she probably has t go to the agency to do it and that adds more incovenience for her.  So again until she feels enough commitment from the emf she may resist the inconvenience of doing the webcam.

All in all I support the idea of some kind of guide or reference, the only issue is making it relevant for enough and general enough for it to be a valid exercise.

Sincerely,

Zhen and Brian

[David E]

Greetings Brothers,

Well David E you are either a glutton for punishment or a very persistent soul ( yes I am messing with you).

Haha...no, Brian, I am not a glutton for punishment, but I think I can claim a tad of persistence.....in the face of daunting odds !!!!

I only have one objective and that is to find out all I can to make the search for a Chinese Bride as painless and rewarding as possible.

I only began to understand something about the "tricks and traps" after finding this Forum.

I got to thinking recently that the mountain of information here from hundreds of Bros and thousands of posts can cut both ways...yes, it is all good, but it is all so fragmented and random.......thats what we do, it is a free and open debate and discussion platform.

To a Newbie, we basically advise "go and read everything here and give it a go" !!

Firstly, to read everything here is a monumental task and would take weeks now with the sheer size of the Forum. Secondly, you would come away after such a read with a giant headache and a sense of utter confusion as to what to do now.

About the only DEFINITIVE advice on this Forum is the Maxx 24 hour rule...something you can see. feel and touch...so to speak.

If , for instance, a Newbie read only the "Brian and Zhen" posts., then he would be led to believe that the whole process was a walk in the Park and so easy.

If , on the other hand he reads the "Scottish Rob and Keren" posts, or the experiences of Sameldrum, he would be left in complete shock/horror about how impossibly difficult the whole thing is.

And if he reads Willy's posts he would be left with the impression that what you need to do is to get 3 suitcases of Viagra, go to live in China, bonk half the female population and then find your beloved !!

And there are a multitude of variations on these extremes.

And we all know that the average truth wil lie somewhere in between...after you get through the minefield of EMF's, Fluff, QQ and on and on and on.

If all of us here are at all interested in A) Finding our life partner and B) Helping others to do the same, then we have some responsibility to become a bit more professional as to how we go about achieving this objective, If all we need from this Forum is a place to randomly post anything and everything without any structure, then we will eventually wither and die and cease to be a useful place because the information base becomes too huge and fragmented.....especially for those who come for a look-see.

My thoughts were that there are some critical issues that need a consolidated or consensus view so that we can offer a precise, punchy and responsible "Rule" for general consumption...hence this survey.

If the Group decision is negative...so be it, we had a try.

But if there is some merit in trying to lift our game, then we should make the effort.

For my Career, I make a lot of money and spend most of my time getting large, diverse Management Groups in Busines and Commerce to get together and "pull on the same end of the rope" for the greater good

Our Forum behaves more and more like a bloody good Business, that has a bloody good product but has not got a clue about marketing !!!!

My 2 cents worth

DavidE

[shaun]

Hoorah David.  I'm behind your efforts and you are headed a direction I think is good.

Thank you for taking this on again.  I am thinking about what input I might have.

Shaun

[Philip]

David,
maybe instead of rules, we should talk about risk.
Maxx's rule is a rule, because it is applicable in so many situations.
A high risk may be writing a lot of EMFs to a bad agency, where the woman is 20 years younger than you, when you have no direct contact, when you haven't visited your lady in China, or maybe haven't visited China at all. It could work, but there is a high risk that it won't.
A low risk would be where you have visited your lady, you have regular direct contact with her, and you may be using EMFs occasionally, or not at all. It could be a scam, but it is a low risk.
Defining high risk and low risk does not mean you can make a rule that applies in every situation, but it can provide a guide to newbies (and oldies)
A rule would have too many exceptions. A risk is a guide.
What do you think?

[maxx]

What we need to figure out here.Is how to.Stop the other members from being blinded by.The eys candy.And the flowery words from the translaters.

We have all read the sad stories.Most of you know what this feels like when it happens.So how do we stop.The new members being dragged down this road?Alex keep going.I think you are on to something here.

[David E]

Ok...we seem to have sparked a litle interest

Brett...we are not talking about "cast iron" rules...only critical guidelines in defined areas of the "chase".

For instance, you mentioned that you were convinced after 5 EMF's
Others have written hundreds !!!

It seems that for those "lucky" enough to find someone who they want to go further with, within a few EMF's dont have any problem at all....and that is good.....this maybe a combination of Him/Her/A Good Agency who facilitates the whole process.

What we are looking for is a moment in time where you should be thinking very hard about where a particular relationship is going.

In terms of advice we can offer to Newbies...something in the order of " When you have shared enough information in EMF's to feel that you wish to take the relationship to another level, it is important to positively make an effort to get onto a face-to-face situation via QQ, or MSN or similar"

Reluctance on her part at this stage should be regarded with some concern.

BTW...Brett......I know that the friend of my Cousins, milkmans' , Aunties', next door neighbors' hairdresser was found a wife by his parents and married her without question..................he was Indian and that is OK in his culture...........but I dont think many of us here want to go down that track !!!

Keep it coming folks...(as the Bishop said to the Actress !!!!)

DavidE

[Philip]

My first trip, like many others, was a high risk, and it didn't work out.
If we define high risk and low risk and medium risk, we come up with a continuum of risk. Then each member can do a risk assessment of where they are on that continuum. Then, using the power of free choice, they can make an informed decision about whether they are happy to live with that risk, or they want to change something. Personally, after my first experience, I didn't want to live with that risk, so I told the four ladies I was writing to, that if they didn't want to go to direct contact after the exchange of 10 EMFs, then, regrettably, I would have to cease contact. 1 dropped out immediately, 3 remained. I chose 1. That was my risk assessment. Others will make a different decision with that level of risk.
So, if this is a good idea, all we have to do is come up with examples of high, medium and low risk.
Then we have Maxx's rule and David's risks

[David E]

Yep Alex

Your thoughts add another relevant dimension to this critical issue...

Something like an advisory that says :

Low risk:

Small Age difference
Aknowleged good Agency
EMF content and quality
Natural photos supplied
etc etc etc

High risk:

Big age difference
Suspect Agency
EMF's generic, not answering questions
Photos not natural
Refuses natural photo exchange

etc etc etc

If we can get far enough down this track so the most of us here can get enthusiastic about how it is developing, then we can ask the Mods to start a locked thread along the lines of:

"How to begin "??

or

"Critical risks"

or whatever

Thanks for that

Jim

Can we think about getting serious about naming the "bad" Agencies...we know for sure Changsha Love Bridge would head up the list...any others come to mind ??
We need to be careful here because we could fall into the trap of condemming an Agency based on somebodys single bad experience. But it is very worth exploring

DavidE

[David S]

Low risk:

Small Age difference
Aknowleged good Agency
EMF content and quality
Natural photos supplied
etc etc etc

High risk:

Big age difference
Suspect Agency
EMF's generic, not answering questions
Photos not natural
Refuses natural photo exchange

etc etc etc

I like the idea of risk rating.  Also perhaps a list of questions to ask yourself, if you answer "yes" to more then XX number of the XX following questions you might be in a high risk situation.. etc.

There are just things that are challenging to the long distance relationship thing.  I've not gone to China to meet a lady yet, but I have done the internet dating thing here in the US with Western women.  Now before we get into a long tangent about Western women, the reason I bring this up is that there are some givens in any aspect of a relationship when you use this medium as the launching point.

Some of the things I learned on this board are:

• "Make a commitment that this is what you are going to do."
• You aren't going to be successful in this on the cheap"
• Read, read, and read some more and learn what you can from other brothers experiences. (both good and bad)
• Understand that there are also risks for the ladies on their end and be understanding that this is a two way street.

Also keep things in perspective.  How much are you paying in EMF's to get to know a lady over six months time compared to how much you would spend on a lady in your home town buying dinners, paying to sit for two hours holding her hand while watching flickering pictures on the wall...  

Ok, I think I'm getting a little long winded here, but the bottom line is follow your gut, and get advice from brothers before making a huge decision.

There might not be a way to make this into a "RULE" but I am sure that a good general board posting that would give new brothers valuable insight can be developed here.

[Proteus]

David, prepare for debate please, I love your thought-provoking thread.

In my opinion, it's already a concession to take burden to worry about the time limit of EMFs. Ideally, EMF is a product male and female members are using together. And the decision as to whether and when to use it should be mutually made. Even though it is paid only by one side, let's consider the example of income tax, both employers and employees are actually under the burden. So like Brain said, particular time limits should depend on individual couple if we can trust the system.

And your concern is mainly about the scams of EMFs and your effort is mainly for brothers to sort out them. My ideally best solution to this problem would always be to make Chnlove thoroughly more credible. It is possible but perhaps needs overall effort of a lot more people than members we have on this forum. So an expedient solution seems necessary for those who are aware of the risk yet still wants to make a try.

Now to the EMF issue, I will discuss it in two situations. The first is where you are almost sure of a prospective future between you and the lady. The best time-line, considering the interest of the lady, is after your first in person meeting. Meeting itself is more important than any amount of EMFs. Only when you propose to meet her, the lady feels your true sincerity. The sense of keeping EMFs going before meeting lies here, the money you paid is another sign of your commitment, and perhaps devotion (It's understandable for ladies to guess, with free communications a man could have much more choices than with EMFs) .

When you have an uncertain feeling of the EMFs, situations are more complicated. The difficulty of drafting a rule similar to that of Maxx is the tradeoff. The worst outcome of following Maxx's rule is gaining nothing but you will not lose anything. But if we are going to set a time limit of EMFs going, I feel the duty to point out the risk of sorting out true love seeds as well as scams. Before going on, I want to quote a sentence you wrote in which you said you want to help brothers to find a more painless and rewarding way to find a China bride. It's indeed an efficient idea and echoes within many brothers' hearts I believe. More interestingly, it coincides with the fact that many Chinese women want to find a western husband painlessly and rewardingly. The only problem is, what if these two wishes confront each other?

Similar to your drafting risk rating system, I believe there are already some risk rating systems formed by ladies and agencies together, perhaps not in written form but in practical use for long.

Low risk:
stable and frequent EMFs exchange,
high quality EMF writing,
eagerness for meeting,  
confirmed air-tickets before meeting ( to make sure the man is coming only for her),
etc

High risk,
met or dated chinese women before,
infrequent EMFs exchange,
eagerness to get off EMFs,
reluctant or evasive when discussing meeting,
no confirmation of air-tickets
etc

It is possible when we are trying to sort out risks, we ourselves are appearing a risk.

But I fear the percentage of scam letters greatly outnumbers genuine but insufficiently "warm" ones, so the more urgent mission, I agree with you, is to give people advice to distinguish them. As to how? I believe as soon as one has enough stuff to suspect, he has very little to worry, because the relationship will probably break.

PS, You are very wise to be aware of the possible unfair condemnation of agencies out of individual experiences. I just want to point out possibility of opposite situations, and moreover, if our forum does get that influential, possibile undercover lobbyists from agencies.

[Scottish_Rob]

Proteus  I have to agree almost wholeheartedly with David on this...

There is ONE MAJOR FLAW TO YOUR ARGUEMENT and it comes from your OWN mouth.
"...If we can trust the system..."   You are a FORMER ( I think, or still working with them I'm not sure) translator.  You know in your heart that the system cannot be trusted...  At least be honest with us !!!

Not only that, there are a possible few others.  Please read on...

WE can not do this wholeheartedly because the members who are being scammed far out weigh the ones who are not...  If this persists there will be (I'm assuming) more members quit in disgust.  The only way around this is for the Chnlove membership worldwide was to stand up and be counted in a defient "NO MORE"  But thinking about it how can this be achieved?

Point one.   You also mentioned the ladies low risk and high risk scenarios.  In my situation, as I'm sure with others, 'WE HAVE BEEN IN THE LADIES LOW RISK" yet we still get scammed so there goes one of your arguments out the window.

Point number two.   The eagerness to get off Emf's, does not hold water, because, SURELY the lady can see the benefit to her, if the MAN does not have to spend all the money on letters.  She would gain and the reason for this is, Chinese ladies are FRUGAL with money...

Point three.   Which in your point system is a low risk.  High quality letters.  I am sure that MOST men here send almost the entire allocation of words to the ladies, I believe you will find, if you care to check, that it is the Ladies/Translators who do not reply with high quality letters.  They are, and this again COMES from your mouth, Fluffed up...Maybe that wasn't the word you used, nonetheless, it meant the same...

[Arnold]

Rob ... three excellent point's there . One can NOT argue with those . Who knows better then yourself ?