RULES.......take 2

[Proteus]

Oh, Rob, thank God I didn't miss your post before going to bed. I’ll address your concern first in this post. Thank you for your simple and straightforward question. It's always what I appreciate to easily understand and answer. To your question, my answer is yes. And I resigned partly for saying this yes with no moral hesitation. I also appreciate you showdown of emotion. After all, our forum is entitled china love, a very emotional one. Although this particular emotion is not so comfortable, in my opinion, for both of us to start some personal friendship because I fail to regard myself a qualified target and I have no appropriate one to return, I am willing to wait for other chances. But anyways, I love the beating sound of your highland heart.

About some details, especially your speculation that "The reason Chnlove IS on the ladies side is VIA the agencies, the lady pays a joining fee, some of which, I do NOT know the percentage...WILL go into the coffers of Chnlove." I have to admit it never came to my mind before you mentioned. Might I be too bold to say it's another doubt that our imagination creates? About the relationship between agencies and chnlove, my knowledge can only provide something as I wrote in Neil's "new spin on EMF" post.

I quote part of it here.

"Buy saying that many agencies are shortsighted and a restored virtue of honesty throughout chnlove will make their business thrive, you have a comrade of opinion, Michael the China Shark whom I miss a lot. But I am not that optimistic. The barrier, in my opinion, lies in the scarcity of resource, or more plainly, the relationship between price and demand.

Since the only revenue chnlove generates is from credits, they have every reason to expect agencies to produce as many credits as possible, and meanwhile obey their rules. The public announcement of three agencies deprived authorization due to poor performance, which I think we could justifiably explain as low credits input; and the absence of any public punishment or even criticism on scam letters or other conducts, may have well suggested chnlove's emphasis. Surely it should be noted that chnlove is taking measures gradually to eliminate dishonesty in EMFs (such as the text message system).

So the ideal agency a chnlove administrator would envision is one like this, an agency that has plenty of employees to translator each letter between gentlemen and ladies, send ladies every cupid notes to respond and help them send out admiral letters. While from the aspect of revenue of an agency boss, these duties are much less important than recruiting new ladies, making phone call to them periodically reporting progress, meeting them when they come to agencies for information or merely gossip. After all, ladies are their immediate clients.

If an agency were to fulfill all the duties mentioned above ideally to satisfy both chnlove and its boss, its employees, I dare to predict again, would at least need to be doubled. And who's going to pay for the extra expense of labour? Agency bosses. I have no knowledge of financial condition of any chnlove agency, but I suspect a doubled pay bill will render most agencies into nearly no profit if not bankruptcy.

Since the extra need of employees cannot be afforded, the burden passes on. One translator is expected to do double amount of work if she's going to be a dutiful translator according to chnlove rules. But the problem is, very unfortunately, most translators do not happen to possess double amount of talent or energy or skills to fulfill the expected duty, such as the one who is writing now. So the choice is laid in front of one, it is a simple choice. Since one's scarce ability permits only fulfilling either duty levied by her boss or by chnlove, any since her pay come from her boss's pocket, I believe every one can predict her rational although pathetic decision."

So Vince, I hope it gives you some information too. To further explain, although a success generates much more revenue than EMFs, it is much more difficult to control than EMF going. In other words, it's a kind of high risk revenue and to keep merely EMF going is low risk, that is too say, easy money.

And Jim, your question about honesty is much more profound and I have some thoughts to share now. This trade of international marriage in China is actually in an embarrassing position. It is at least discouraged, if not forbidden, both by government also conventional concepts. Because although namely international marriage, it is almost a sheer women output without any women input (forgive me using this term). In your country attitudes are different obviously (consider the story of Sabine women). So no firm is sure of its long-term prosperity in this political and cultural atmosphere. Moreover, when most agencies care only short-term revenues, to give up the slice of cake in front of you and pursue a bigger but later one means high risk with no certain return. To put it simply, in this trade, "skilled" ones are to survive, honest ones are not.

Now David, your eloquent and coherent words give as much joy as insights in reading. I've managed to understand till where our opinions stand together and from where divide. Not only you and me, all of us and even the ladies want a relationship or at least a correspondence developed with the principle of simple and real. Then one of your paragraph lit my eyes and my brain although you didn't capitalise it, "We know that this "getting more personal" next step is strongly resisted, in the main, and we don’t know why....nobody has satisfactorily told us why this simple and logical step is as difficult (mainly) as pulling teeth !!"

You don't understand it because you are a gentleman who present exactly as you describe yourself, who wrote every lady one on one. You believe in fair-play, while who behaves otherwise believes in taking advantage of more coming information and less revealed information of oneself.

To be a little self-defeating and to contribute to the stock of doubts, I here quote some speculations other brothers have already offered to explain the resistance. The most possible one, surely is that the lady knows not you and all EMFs are from hands of translators. The second most possible one, the lady is very much different from her profile. The third most possible one, the lady's interest in you is not enough to proceed to personal contact, in which case, a lot of EMFs concent can be attributed to translators again.

If you play fairly, your surely want your opponent obey the same rule. It is here our opinions begin to divide. You plan to act as a judge partly while staying in the field since you've completely lost faith in the judge deployed; I plan to force the judge to fulfill his duty or simply quit playing and do something else with as little faith in the judge as you have. And if I have to make a choice of advice between the two, quit playing might be the one I prefer. This is why I ask you the question "Why still Chnlove?"

I am making my proposition according to some conventional wisdom such as "a man cannot spin and reel at the same time", or perhaps in this specific context, "a man cannot love and doubt at the same time." But as every conventional wisdom has an opposite one, I understand my opinion is only a jigsaw piece. But one thing for sure, I will stick to my effort, perhaps only orally so far, to let chnlove behave more honestly.

Two ideas come to my mind so far to serve this end. One is for individual member, which is to ask the translator for Chinese versions of every coming and going EMFs with excuses created by your own wisdom. If the correspondence is genuine, the translator has no reason to deny your request. If you are denied or evaded, no further investment needed. Another advantage of this method is that it does disturb the lady. The other idea is to start a campaign to force Chnlove to further implement a regulation they are very slowly and insufficiently carrying out. I've discussed something about it before in the thread started by Peter (pr1969). Here's a part,

"Chnlove has launched a "text message informing" system about 3 or 4 months ago, whose function is to inform the lady a new EMF has reached her account by sending a text message to her cell phone. Now more than 95% ladies have cell phone so the system meets no technical barriers. The only pullback is that Chnlove is not implementing it thoroughly. Only new joining ladies after the date when this system is launched are required to link their cell phone number to their EMF account, older ladies are not required to. And the sending of text messages are via translators, meaning by them clicking a button on the page of coming EMF to finish the action of sending, which action most translators ignore because there's no pressure on them."

Today I come up with a third idea, inspired by fyeba. For those who have suspicion of your EMFs, would you please put them in one thread. If one day we see there are 4 or 5 members related to one agency and the suspicious cases happen within, say, half a year (so the agency cannot put off accusation by saying data are no longer preserved after too long time), we may start a collective demand for evidence of genuineness of the whole EMFs, the amount of which cannot be bulk faked overnight.

I surely understand all these methods contain difficulty to carry out while I am even not sure what benefit they will bring to who try them. But at least they are a try.

So please forgive me to repeat your mistake in your first marriage, Vince. Dear new friends, rather than advice, I want to give you a better Chnlove.

[Scottish_Rob]

Proteus, thank you for being truthful...

You ARE an intelligent person, you know it, I know it, and every member on this site knows it... So why do you say this statement to me???

"...Might I be too bold to say it's another doubt that our imagination creates?..."

As an intelligent person, who knows the ins and outs of running a business, you 'KNOW' that in ANY business from bottom to top, the person above the other will get so much money/bonus for their contribution.  

For example,
The translator will be paid a wage...Yes?
They will then get paid for an amount OVER their quota?...Yes?
The Agency bosses will get a wage, and bonus if the Agency does well?...Yes?
Now all this will come from Chnlove...Yes?
So we can SEE that Chnlove are the real bosses...BECAUSE they pay the wages?...Yes?

SO, there can be NO DOUBT that ANY money going into the Agency will be passed UPSTAIRS...SURELY this is not unreasonable to think?

So my question to you is...WHERE is the DOUBT in this statement..."it's another doubt that our imagination creates?..." .

Your post #26... I intended ripping it to shreads, which I will still do...There were many, many faults within it, that makes ME BELIEVE you are a PLANT for CHNLOVE...  But I said I would only ask 1 question at a time.

All we want is the truth...NO going in depth, or avoiding the question which YOU ARE AN EXPERT IN...  I AM ALSO an intelligent person, I may not have the eloquance of using wording like David E etc.  But PLEASE DO me the curtoursy of not playing me for a FOOl...

However, thank you for your suggestion concerning 'suspicions of Emf's...

[Proteus]

Back again!

Alex, I think we share same opinions about doubts and risks. Some adequate extent of doubts, or in other words, questions, are necessary. And it is only when they are clarified, a relationship proceeds ahead. Please let me defent myself a little here. To reach this balanced point, I am drawing the extreme of excessive doubts while most are drawing the extreme of zero doubts, to let them two to meet.  Merely doubting and guarding oneself against everything means little. It is how much to ask and how to ask and confirm, that matters. But how much is enough?

"Get to direct contact as soon as you can.
Get some natural photos of you lady.
Find out about her family and their feelings about Western husbands
Find out about Chinese customs and culture.
Do all the above with subtlety, not like a bull in a china shop"

What you listed is a good start. I want to add "how her past relationship broke, if she had before", "what is she willing to and capable of doing when move to a new environment"

With these two questions, I don't regard myself more doubtful than you. But if I add "how many men she is contacting now", "how can I confirm all her answers to those questions", I am human but doing nothing productive to myself. To the latter two questions, no definete answers can be believed.

Say we webcam everyday for one hour, what is she doing in the other 23 hours? She told me in QQ her parents consented her moving abroad, how much do they know me till now, what will they say in person if I appear in front of them? She said she loves me, which part and how much on earth? ...

So if we really want something happen, the line between excessive and adequate must be drawn.

And Rhonald, I believe economics is a such science. The more samples it caculates, the more correct it funtions. I try not to apply it in individual cases because human minds are made up of different values. It is revealed in this thread clearly enough.

It is only a pity that people like you, Martin, Paul and Brian can only call yourselves lucky ones. Usually in a business, modes of success are what we follow, but here, they are usually advised against. And for those who are not so lucky, we surely want some changes. But with the highly varied uncertainty, we can only try something that can be universally applied in all situations, from extremly bad to extremly good.

So dear new friends, if you want something to follow, make sure if can apply in all situations, neither too oppotimistic in negtive ones, nor to pessimstic in positive ones.

[Philip]

Proteus,
I think that all of the considerations mentioned by members so far are valid and can be applied in all situations, apart from your one about why her last relationship broke. While it is valid to discuss what she is willing and able to do in a new situation, I don't consider it a universal consideration, when you are getting to know someone, to ask why a previous relationship went wrong.
For people like me, my priority is getting this relationship right. Conducting a post-mortem on a former relationship, like asking how many lovers she has had, can be a reductive exercise, especially if you haven't met and are communicating through the rather fuzzy and error-strewn medium of EMFs and translations. If she wants to discuss former relationships, I am happy to talk about this when the relationship is established, and when it comes up. I don't know if I'm the only one who feels this way, but even if I am, does this really have more chance of eliciting a more believeable response than, 'How many men are you writing to'?

I think that for the purposes of this thread, it is better to focus on providing a pragmatic and useful guide to guys writing to and visiting Chinese women - an at-a-glance set of guidelines, so that when you are stuck in EMF purgatory or stuck in a hotel room on your own in China, you can take some positive action.
Speculating on who is the bigger bad guy, Chnlove or the agencies, is an interesting, but separate, discussion. While it is always good to know your enemy, this kind of speculation can make you go round in circles and detract from the practical realities when you need to act in a given situation.

[Proteus]

Oh, sorry Rob, I fail to understand your true point which has been so clearly expressed. In answering so many post, I was a little careless.

When I say the "doubt created by our imagination". I mean the doubt that Chnlove shares part of agencies' initial fees from ladies. As to this specific question, my answer would be "very unlikely", because if so, profits left for agencies will not be enough to encourage them to start. And if Chnlove want a bigger bite, it can simply give less of every EMF revenue to agencies. And the most possible reason, Chnlove wants never get involved into any disputes or responsibilities bound by any forms of contract with ladies. And if they share part of the initial fees, they can't be immune.

Surely your point is, no matter in forms of fees from ladies or from men, concerning revenue, agencies are on the same side with chnlove.

Before answering it, I have to declare again I am only a former translator of one agency. So you may have a rough conjecture how much information I should have.

The relationship between chnlove and agencies nowadays, I think is like an autocrat and his corrupted officials.

Let me explain it further. It is true that generally, their interests are on the same side, but not a noble and stable one. There are still some differences.

Chnlove on the whole, cares you male members' benefits more than individual agencies. Like in a country of dictatorship or monarchy, the highest rules cares the benefits of all his subjects because they need to sustain at least a meager living to support his reign. It is reasonable. Chnlove has started business since 1998 and it's almost and established brand, so it cannot close and start other business overnight like many agencies. It is provable. In the past year, chnlove has taken several methods to protect benefit of male members. 1. make it invisible from a man's profile whether he has credits left on his account (otherwise any woman/translator who have written with him can send new letters despite his neglection to steal his credits until he block her). 2. start the text message system I have explained before 3. start the feedback system.

Surely all these regulations place pressure on agencies like anti-corruption laws against officials, and are poorly carried out as we can expect (except the first one). At least Chnlove is doing something, better than agencies. But how much can we expect Chnlove to do by itself? As much as we can expect a dictator to do for his countrymen.

Some other differences might interest you less. An official may not be loyal to his boss but to some potential rivals. Many agencies work not only with Chnlove. Half of the ladies who succeeded in marrying abroad from our agency are through Match.com. An official may secretly plan a coup. Many agencies are starting their own sites similar to chnlove. (it must be doen secretly, two agencies were fired by chnlove when their secrets were exposed).

Chnlove itself is in a dilemma. It's customer care department speaks with one voice, and financial one speaks with another (passed down to us by our boss). In the new year announcement given by chnlove customer care manager who supervises our agency. She demanded (I quote by memory),

"Arrange direct contact with ladies and gentlemen as soon as possible to build gentlemen's confidence in chnlove service and deepen their relationship. Suggest ladies to webcam gentlemen regularly in agency, perhaps with a newly printed letter of them held in hand. Remind ladies to send regards to gentlemen on western festivals and their birthdays or other important days. etc."

Mind you, there is even a written rule in chnlove handbook dilivered by them to forbide translators tell ladies if the man she is writing has other correspondents then. I myself have been asked by her to pass some requests to ladies which nearly amounts to insult. Some customer care staff of chnlove is very humble, perhaps too humble, in front of men. But how loud do they speak?

The one who supervises our agency has enough evidence to shut it down but all of her power can only postpone new applications of ladies and ban admiral letters sending for merely a week.

Her limited power shows the emphasis of chnlove decision making. Chnlove bosses know this reality, if chnlove does implement strict tules to make sure every EMF is translated and answered by ladies, at least 80% agencies will go out of business, just like 80% officials of a corrupted admistration would be fired. So they are doing as much as a dictator can do.

On the other hand, it is some of you brothers here I think bear a little responsibility. Your tolerance indulges them. Perphas bargaining with someone you already deemed loathy might seem a little disgraceful. But please bear in mind, you are not doing only for yourself. The more complaints chnlove receives, the more pressure they feel.

So Rob, let me be honest. I feel you haven't stepped out of the shadow of Keren. Would you please take into consideration my suggestion to join a thread gathering suspicuos EMFs? If you have any other ideas to let your mood return calm confined with this specific case? I think all of us are willing to devote some mentality.

[ttwjr32]

I was fortunate i didnt meet my wife on CHNLOVE. You see i realized the translator
 did more talking in the beginning than the lady. And i found out by asking the lady or
 i should say talking with her that she knew nothing about the few previous letters topics.
 But this leads me to this------- Doesnt China regulate these agencies?? Maybe a member
 who gets decieved could write or email that govt agency who grants the liscence to operate.
 I read in the paper here in guangzhou were they shut down a few agencies for this reason as
 they were just trying to generate money and not actually trying to get people together.
I dont know just a thought maybe.

[David E]

Phew....that's something of a mountain of information to climb over !!!!

So how do we best summarise all the words from and to Proteus and Co. on this very vital topic ?

Very little of what was said is unknown to us, we are fully aware that CHNLove and Agencies may well have differing agendas....and they are not always in OUR best interests.

I get the view that the reluctance to move to another level with relationships, via personal emails or QQ etc is very much a red-flag...in the situations Proteus describes...it aint good for us !!

I think this confirms what we have all said here before....if you cant get on to this next level of communications after an "appropriate" time...then move on !!

Jim...trust and honesty is a worthy goal...but it becomes clear that this is ONE thing we can never be sure to get...until we actually go to China...and even then, there is no guarantee that we will get what/who we think we are getting.

The significant disconnect here is that we are NEVER going to get to the situation where we can be ABSOLUTELY sure that all the words we get FROM her are real, and that all the words we send TO her are accurately and faithfully passed on......in the EMF stage.

Nothing that Proteus has said gives me any confidence that A) CHNLove is prepared to rigidly police the ethics of it's Agencies, and B) The Agencies themselves will voluntarily come to their own realisation that they must be honest with us.

In the final crunch, our only option is to go to China and find out the real truth...which may well be a high risk strategy...so be it !!.....we want to make this an "informed decision"

Lastly Proteus...in further answer to your "why CHNLove" ??

Maybe I for one, and many others have lost faith in the "Judge", but we also KNOW that despite ALL the impediments created by those parts of CHNLove and its less honourable Agencies, many Bros here have had excellent service and help from the Honourable Agencies that DO exist.

So the rest of us keep going so that we can eventually hit the same jackpot as they did....the Lady of our choice, found within an honest and honourable Agency........it is very easy to give up and walk away, that is what the "players" will do. But here, we are the Bros, of all people wanting to find their partner in China, we are serious, and we will ultimately win...because we are serious !!!

DavidE

[Rhonald]

Maybe I for one, and many others have lost faith in the "Judge", but we also KNOW that despite ALL the impediments created by those parts of CHNLove and its less honourable Agencies, many Bros here have had excellent service and help from the Honourable Agencies that DO exist.

So the rest of us keep going so that we can eventually hit the same jackpot as they did....the Lady of our choice, found within an honest and honourable Agency........it is very easy to give up and walk away, that is what the "players" will do. But here, we are the Bros, of all people wanting to find their partner in China, we are serious, and we will ultimately win...because we are serious !!!

DavidE

Great conclusion David and I salute your fortitude - I do hope you become one of the lucky ones :icon_biggrin:

[David E]

Maybe I for one, and many others have lost faith in the "Judge", but we also KNOW that despite ALL the impediments created by those parts of CHNLove and its less honourable Agencies, many Bros here have had excellent service and help from the Honourable Agencies that DO exist.

So the rest of us keep going so that we can eventually hit the same jackpot as they did....the Lady of our choice, found within an honest and honourable Agency........it is very easy to give up and walk away, that is what the "players" will do. But here, we are the Bros, of all people wanting to find their partner in China, we are serious, and we will ultimately win...because we are serious !!!

DavidE

Great conclusion David and I salute your fortitude - I do hope you become one of the lucky ones :icon_biggrin:

Thank you O Master Storyteller ....I will win, it wont be luck, but will be because of persistence, and the knowlege from those who have gone before...and won

[Johnboy]

Bravo DavidE!

You have undertaken a gigantic and complex task and I applaud and deeply thank you for doing so.  There is no doubt in my mind that the issue of fake EMF's, fake and photoshopped photos and ladies who are nothing like what we expect them to be when we arrive at the airport in China, lies at the very heart of the problems we experience with Chnlove and (some of) its agencies in preventing and perverting true relationships and loving relationships from developing, blossoming and coming to fruition.  In my opinion, this one issue is fundamental and essential when we seek to surmount the abject dishonesty and cynicism of some of Chnlove's agencies, because it is through the EMF system that most corrupt practices occur; the others all spring from it.  The most blatant form of this dishonesty and cynicism is perpetuated by the agencies facilitating and encouraging the two-way flow of EMF correspondence with a lady who, at best, is disinterested or uninterested and who, at worst, does not even know that you exist.  It is a self-evident truth, therefore, that EMF's are at the very heart of the problems we are faced with when seeking to build a trustworthy and meaningful relationship with a lady in China.

I do not pretend to even begin to know the answer to this problem or how to proceed to address or redress it.  That resides with those who possess a sharper insight and keener intellect than I.  However, I am inspired and excited by the excellent quality of the many posts that different members have made on this subject and I believe that therein, in due course, given the right commitment, will the answer be found.

I have not posted on this topic before now because I have had some very urgent and pressing work issues to deal with; in short, I employ people and some of them are threatened with redundancy due to the continuing recession that is apace in the UK.  They have families and mortgages and my first loyalty has had to be with them and not my own heart and its China-sought desires.  I have however been coming-and-going on the Forum and reading all the fantastic thought-provoking views and opinions that have been posted.  That said, I would like to take this oppportunity to comment on them and to add my simple contribution.

Firstly, as I understand it, this debate is about whether there should be a 'rule' for when members depart from using EMF's - and what the variables, givens and principles that drive and govern that rule are.  There have been many opinions expressed about this, particularly in correlation to Maxx's 24 hour golden rule.  My own opinion is, that with an issue of this nature, it is virtually impossible to impose or formulate a 'rule' that accommodates all the many excellent views and thoughts that have 'been brought to the table'; and I prefer to think of it as a guiding principle (or principles) or guiding advice.  However, if the majority view is for a 'rule' on this topic, I am comfortable with that, as I am more concerned with achieving the outcome than I am with the semantics of the proposition.

On this, I am in total greement with Shaun's point that: "Most of us want to chart our own territory", and would add to that - in our own good way and time.  For me that is another fundamental that can not be interfered with, on the premise that what works for some may not work for others.  Moreover, it is almost impossible to put a time-frame on a developing relationship, as each individual relationship develops in its own way and has a life of its own.  Just as it is extremely difficult to put a number on how many EMF's are written/received before concluding that the arriving correspondence is dishonest or that, at the very least, something is wrong.

Conversely, I completely disagree with Maxx that: If you are not going to visit the lady you are writing to in 3/4 months then don't write the letters."  Just as I disagree with his imperative that: "When I did it that was the rule", ie going to China to meet the lady after 2/3 months.   That is only his personal opinion of what worked for him; it may not work for others.  I, for example, could not possibly go to China for some while, even if my heart was crying out to do so - largely for reasons that I have explained above - but also because I hold a position of resposibility and trust and people rely upon me; the only way I could follow what my heart dictates, is to abandon all of that.  From my reading of this thread, I see that Vince is in the same position and can not go to China for personal reasons either.  I am therefore not on my own and suspect there are many others who face similar dillemnas.

On the question of 'risk strategy':  I believe that going to China to find out the real truth, without first being convinced that it is the truth, or at least bears a close resemblance to the truth, before going, is the highest risk strategy of all!  And, David, on this, I would particularly refer to your #Post 22, which says it all!  Furthermore, on the question of agency ladies' high and low risks; I found Proteus' post on this to be very enlightening but not something that should distract from the main objective for establishing the criteria of how to deal with the agencies panorama of duplicity and dishonesty in relation to EMF's and the criterion at hand for when to cease using them - interesting and useful though the ladies' risk assessment information may be.

On Proteus' contribution.  Rob, I, unequivocally, do not believe for one moment that Proteus is a "Chnlove plant."  How could he be when he has given us such priceless information and advice, as has been testified to by so many members of this Forum?  I respect you Rob, and you know from our PM's that I respect you, and, like Proteus, I admire your Scottish lion heart.  But I do really think you have got this wrong.  In fact, I believe the problem arises from different conceptions: we function with a Western perception of intellect, whereas Proteus has an Oriental intellectuality, and I am convinced that many of his analogies and metaphors are misunderstood.  He is undoubtedly a highly intelligent and sensitive man, and if he were indeed a Chnlove plant, he would have conducted his business on this Forum in an entirely different and deceitful way.  It is, however, an incontrovertible fact that much of what we know about Chnlove agency practices and duplicity, particularly in relation to EMF's, has been given to us, gold-plated and gift-wrapped, by Proteus.  And, as he is a former agency translator - and was an agency translator at the time of giving us these gems of information - his information is invaluable.  Consequently, his kneck was also on the block should his true identity and the agency he worked for have been discovered and maliciously (by whoever and for whatever reason) conveyed to Chnlove.  I know you have been deeply hurt and have every reason and justification to feel very aggrieved about Chnlove, and believe me, I really do feel for you.  But credit where it's due Rob?

Ah, Jim (Mr Big), I am perhaps the fish in your metaphorical post, and much has been written here about using common sense and life-experience in our search for true love.  Unfortunately, I had neither as I had never been on an Internet dating or marriage site in my life and stumbled on Chnlove when I was surfing the net one night.  And it was just as you described it, pages of beautiful, exotic women - and then, out of all those thousands, my eyes fell on one woman who, to me, was utterly beautiful and I was totally captivated.  I was not in love with the photo, but I was absolutely infatuated!  And the rest is history, as they say.  But enough of that, as I am in danger of going off-topic, so I won't go there... ....well, that's my excuse anyway.  I merely make this point to confirm that you are completely correct in what you write, but also to make the point that when I started out I had neither life-experience or common sense in matters of this nature; now I have a fair degree of both, but only since becoming a member of this Forum.  That fact alone exemplifies the value of DavidE's Rule 2 thread and why we need an overarching guiding priciple, guiding advice or 'rule' in relation to EMF correspondence.

Similarly, David50, posites the advice of using common sense and life-experience to guide us through our journey to find that special one.  And my response is the same: unless you have gathered that life-experience and formed that common sense from involvement with something like Chnlove, you just have not got a clue about how to go about things and how to avoid the pitfalls and heartbreak - unless you are extremely fortunate enough to discover a Forum such as this.  However, I do not think that I could add to David50's other 5 points of excellent advice.

Again, as with Rob, I think Alex has misunderstood the point Proteus was trying to make about asking a lady why her past relationship failed, or how many men she was writing to.  I think this was posed by Proteus to try to establish some idea of if she was a 'mulitple writer' or 'player' who had little or no interest in forming a lasting relationship but was merely being deployed to fill the agency's coffers with EMF revenue.  I may be wrong about this and I'm sure Proteus will correct me if I am.  However, I completely agree with Alex that these are virtually impossible questions to ask and, apart from the potential damage they would cause to a genuine fledgling relationship, there is almost no way of knowing if the answers are true!  I also totally empaphise with Alex on the other thorny aspect of this in that, like him, I have no interest in previous relationship postmortems and I firmly believe that two people's history starts when they become involved with each other; what happened, was said, or done before, is of little concern or interest to me - unless she wants to tell me about it, and I will be a generous and patient listener.  More to the point, I find Alex's posts enthralling and full of 'must take' advice and in my frequent coming-and-going I have absorbed and assimilated many of his valuable and worthy thoughts.

I also think that Ted has made some excellent points, and I believe his suggested route is one that we should be taking.  I have actually posted previously that, in my opinion, the thing Chnlove fears most (along with its conglomerate agencies) is bad publicity - and plenty of it!  Chnlove and its agencies are inured to the complaints made about EMF's, fake ladies and translator scams, but they do not like their dirty washing being aired in public!  Perhaps we should give some thought to appointing a press officer for press releases?  I have frequently read posts here where it is said that our membership is too small to make a difference or to worry Chnlove, but I do not buy in to that on the premise that any bad publicity is unwanted publicity and tends to focus the attention of those receiving it.  Also, there is a different perception about the morality of dating/mariage agencies in China to that of the Western world, and I think the Chinese authorities would be reluctant to catch some of Chnlove's bad publicity fall-out.  Just a thought to be considered.

Lastly David, I would personally dismiss out of hand any suggestion that this thread is pointless, a waste of time or a hopeless cause.  It is none of those disingenuous negatives.  it is unbelievably empowering!  And I believe that what comes from this thread will become one of the most valuable weapons in the Brotherhood's armoury for surmounting chnlove and the agencies dishonest practices - especially for newbies like me, who arrive disheartened, bewildered and fractured and suddenly find that there is life and hope and an impossible dream to dream after all!!!

I can not begin to thank you, and all those who have given their time, thoughts, experience and aspirations here, enough.  I believe you have enough.  And let your guiding advice be: "If she is interested, she can not wait to meet you too." (Chen Yan)  

Avanti! And go well!

Johnboy

[David E]

Johnboy.....Masterful !!!!

In fact I for one, am so completely impressed by the quality of the info. from so many Bros on this "thorny" subject that I am overwhelmed by the amount of detail to sift through to get to a draft stage for all to critique in whatever way they see fit.

I dont want to comment in detail on your post...it is self evident, but on one point i do think we have all agreed so far......the word "Rule" is not appropriate. The only situation we have so far where a RULE applies is the Maxx 24 hour rule...and that is for an entirely different set of circumstances.

So Alex has provided a better theme...that of "risk management" and I believe this is the right approach.

I was ploughing through everything constructing a draft when Proteus popped up with yet more information, so I will go back to the drawing board and do some changes to my draft.

What I plan to do tomorrow is to take everything that all the Bros have done and give it to one of my analysts and ask the question..."what does it all mean, what does it all say, and what should we do to put it into neat language that does not confuse and does not read like the Encyclopedia Brittanica !!!"

This analyst will look at it all with unbiased eyes and with no knowlege of the humongous history behind all the words...so we will get an objective opinion.

So, guys, if you want to have a say, be quick..........

Watch this space

DavidE

[Proteus]

Wow, David, you are so swift with your drafting work. I hope I arrived in time.

After some reflection, I realised another difference that leads to our divided opinions.

It is with the unfolding with this thread, that I realised your persistence in finding your true love in China. Surely with it, you'll have much stronger motivation to carry on your adventure, than me and perhaps many new friends do. As to me, when I want to find a Chinese wife, I don't need Chnlove. :icon_cheesygrin: So it is so easy for me to suggest quit from Chnlove. When I put myself in your position, I realised you need something different.

Our opinions meet again when you say,

"The significant disconnect here is that we are NEVER going to get to the situation where we can be ABSOLUTELY sure that all the words we get FROM her are real, and that all the words we send TO her are accurately and faithfully passed on......in the EMF stage. "

I already explained our different methods under this circumstance in the judge metaphor. And now I realise you'll stick to yours. I hope mine could be taken into consideration by whom with less persistence than you do. And to those who want to carry on the game like you, I sincerely wish you good luck!

With regard to your hope for an honourable translator or agency, I agree with you more when you say,

"Most of us here will be convinced that almost all Agencies (or the Translators) will add "spin" or "fluff" to the EMF's you get from the Women with whom you correspond.

Most Agencies tread a very fine line between ethics, honesty and reality....the hard part is deciding which !!

For this reason, we think the best way to go is to get away from EMF's as early as possible and get on to more personal communication with QQ and similar face-to-face communication."

in the thread of Peter (pr1969).

I just have a request. When we carry on our effort, with the mental contribution from ttwjr32 and John and a lot others, would you please share your wisdom a little? We are fighting different battles, but we are all in the same war.

[David E]

I just have a request. When we carry on our effort, with the mental contribution from ttwjr32 and John and a lot others, would you please share your wisdom a little? We are fighting different battles, but we are all in the same war.

Proteus

I am not sure what exactly you mean by the above words.

I have no wisdom here.....only I have the experience of my own and that which many, many Brothers have shared with me openly and honestly from a lot of their own experience...good and bad !!!

I have agreed to take all the words here....from all the Brothers and try to put them into one place, as a very important guide for all Newbies and all the thousands of Men who look at our Forum but dont sign up. We here want all Men from our Western World to know something about how this system works....if we can save some financial and emotional pain for them, then our job will be worthy !!

DavidE

[Johnboy]

Thank you sir, praise indeed from the master!

David, I overlooked to include my key points and do so now.  Some will replicate those of others but I think this in itself is useful, perhaps even important, in showing a concensus of thought.  My apologies for being unable to keep to your 12 word maximum.

1)  Personal and willing contact of some nature after 10 EMF's. Based on 1 EMF per week each way.

2)  Devoted to writing to you only whilst relationship continues.

3)  Prompt and willingness to provide ordinary photos.

4)  Answers your questions and asks her own questions of you.

5)  Hides her profile as relationship progresses or volunteers good, credible reasons for not doing so.

6)  Writes more long EMF's than short ones.

7)Find out if she has told her parents about you and what they think.

 Be very wary about flowery, passionate language if used by her in early correspondence.

9)  Discover after no more than 10 EMF's if she wants you to visit her in China. Based on 1 EMF a week each way.

10) Be open, honest, sincere and gentle - and trusting, until you know otherwise.

I hope this is of some help in the quest for the impossible dream!?

Respect!

Johnboy

[Willy The Londoner]

Most Agencies tread a very fine line between ethics, honesty and reality....the hard part is deciding which !!

Tread a fine - who are you kidding Proteus - the majority of agencies stomp all over that so called fine line.  

Willy