Religion Thread

[Rhonald]

so I want to ask ..... What do you worship ?

cause we all worship something ..... so what is it for you ?

:huh:

Mike this is a groaner but I finally figured it out what Tiztom's religion is:

Tiztom says he likes fast cars so his religion (real engine) is turbo charged V8:icon_cheesygrin:

I actually miss his postings. I hope he did not do anything too bad to get banned but that follow up profile, if it was him, was a real low blow.

[Vince G]

Mike you replied with "establishing a relationship with Jesus is what brings FREEDOM, accepting Christ is the answer"

So God will send to Hell anyone that does not establishing a relationship with Jesus? So others that are not christians go to hell even though they went to church and did all the praying to God. And the same for all the people before christianity? I'm not the first to bring this up and this has been debated for many years. You (Christians) see it, know it, but won't admit it, it's wrong.

Shaun, Growing up in NY you can't shake a stick without hitting a Jew. Knowing so many my whole life you come to understand them quite well. I'm not talking of just liberal jews. A walk down 18th Ave Brooklyn you'd think your in Israel. So I'm not just guessing at what is written of Jews and Hell.

Jews do not believe in Hell, because by definition, Hell is the place for the ETERNAL punishment of the soul. Although Judaism certainly believes in a punishment for the sins committed in this life, Jews do not believe in Hell because they believe God to be forgiving, compassionate, and merciful. So, the idea of an ETERNAL punishment makes God look Cruel and prevents them from believing in hell.

It is not that I accept the writings of others against the bible. I agree sometimes with them more. I don't take their writings as my bible either. So let me make this clear. Some of the bible makes sense and other parts are off the wall nonsense. I will pick and choose, so it is not the whole bible. For instance they say Christ died on the cross? and what happen proceeding that. I believe that. It is not whether I believe or not I debate. It is the words "I have to or else?" Bad things will happen to me? The pope just broke his wrist, what do you suppose he did wrong?

What it comes down to is "I" don't take the bible as follow every word. According to the Catholic religion I have sinned because I have been to other religious churches and Temples. This does not bother me. I wanted to see and experience for myself, and learn what they had to teach.

[Rhonald]

What it comes down to is "I" don't take the bible as follow every word. According to the Catholic religion I have sinned because I have been to other religious churches and Temples. This does not bother me. I wanted to see and experience for myself, and learn what they had to teach.

"HIC SVNT DRACONES" I guess we are a little similar in our view of the bible Vince, as I believe in exploring that which is hidden past the horizon. I believe most religions to be static and flat. They have mapped out their territory and use the fear of dragons and sea monsters to keep us ashore. The Phonecians used the same tatics about sea monsters so that they could keep a monopoly on their sea trade which gave rise to their riches.

[shaun]

David, I am not offended by anything anyone has said on this thread. To be offended is a choice a person makes and I choose to not be offended.  Also, I tried to keep my personal opinion out of the abortion issue. I think I did and yes it is controversial. I chose the subject because it is so closely tied to the fundamentalism issue. Your definition of a fundamentalist and what the American politician and news media consider a fundamentalist are different. The dominant terrorist group spoken about today is Islamic Fundamentalism.

Vince, You and I share the same opinion with regard to seeking and searching out what is true in our our mind. I was not trying to accuse you of believing writings promoting an anti-Bible agenda. What I was trying to say is that I do not understand why people do when there isn't credible evidence that what they are writing about is true.  I struggle with that when there is so much evidence to prove the Bible is true. I have been very fortunate to be able to go to most of biblical places that have evidence is see it first hand. The most memoriable event when looking at evidence was looking at the dead sea scrolls in Jerusalem. I still get goose bumps when I think about it some 15 years later.

I do not have the marvelous experience of growing up with a lot of Jewish people but I have encountered many and have had favor with all that I meet. There was one who lived in Jerusalem all of his life and 15 years ago he was in his 70's, owned a motel and a small neighborhood synagogue was in his back yard. He kept on insisting that I was a Jew and I felt honored he said that. I worked for a Jewish family when I was in high school and a part of college. I have always discussed religion and I do not remember one time a Jew telling me they did not believe in Hell let alone a orthodox one. I can say that the concept of hell comes out of the Jewish portion of the Bible.

I don't think Christians are cagey when it comes to the issue of Christianity being the only way to heaven. It is an issue that even today I struggle with. What mpo Mike said about Eternal Life is a Christian viewpoint and he listed the passages but there is one that is very important in supporting this viewpoint and why most Christians will dance around the subject.  Jesus said, "I am they way, the truth and the life. No goes to the Father except By Me." Now the way I understand this passage and the others mentioned by Mike is that the final decision decision is up to God.

This is all good and fun for me but I will be talking a lot less for the next couple of weeks. I am preparing my house to sell.  I can't support it by myself anymore and I really do not want to rent rooms out.  I am looking for a smaller house closer to the lake and out in the woods. Who knows maybe I could start my own cult!!! NOT! I like the peace of living out of the city and I like to go fishing every now and then. So I tell all of you this so that no one thinks I got my feelings hurt.  I will check in when I can.

[Vince G]

Mike let me clear this some. I may say "You" but not meaning you yourself. I understand you do not speak for God. The "You" is for the writers of, believers of. I'm only pointing out the fact of the ups and downs, round and round that always happens from the words written in the bible. Just like the words written here in the forum. None of it should be taken to heart. As if it is the only words written. It's opinions and past down stories that is in the bible. The writers are story tellers and expressing there opinions. That's all there is to it. Believe what you want to or not. But "You" (or them) can not tell me I have too OR?

There is nothing anyone can say that hasn't been said before at least to me. I've said when judgement day comes then I will worry (maybe) about it? I've been told then it's to late. But how do they know? for sure. No one has actually been there and came back. Don't say Jesus did, I'm talking about the one telling me.

These writings are written for affects, like movies are today. Most of it was an assumption. A "maybe this happen". Jesus went into the desert "Alone", the devil came to him.....  So who was there writing this down? What? Was he wired? They followed near in a black van? recording it. If Jesus told them this? no one knows or is it a story to glorify?

Lets take the movie about Howard Hughes. Good movie, close to the way he was. But when he was locked by himself in this room and rambling to himself? Who was there writing down these words? He had bottles of piss all over the place. Someone with his affliction would not do that. But the affects were good. People believed it all.

No need to write what Luke or Matthew wrote. I don't know if they were actually there? And like I have said for many years now, Who was writing this word for word at that time? How do they know or remember "every word" 50-80 years later? If you don't understand this? Then tell me this? When you were 10 years old pick a month and year and tell me word for word what conversation you had. Not assume what you said, Not generalize, the actual words. This is what your asking me to believe.

If religion help a someone become a better person? I'm all for it. I don't care what they want to believe as long as the result is a good one. That's all there is.


Shaun, I know what you mean. Good luck with the move. I'm looking into this myself soon. I'll take that smaller place near the lake if you don't? :icon_cheesygrin:

[David5o]

Shaun,

I totally agree too, the Islamic Fundamentalists are the biggest threat to the world at this moment, not just to the USA, but everywhere..... Far more globally organised than other terrorist groups too!!

One thing that always amazes me is how Muslims can totally apply an almost 2000yr old book to a modern bustling world society?? The truth is, they can't, just like the bible can't be applied in it's entirety either.
Anyone that needs convincing about the Koran, need only to tune to Saudi TV Chan2  (English) during the month of Ramadan. And listen to the Imams answering questions on Do's and Dont's during the holy month of Ramadan. You can actually see them making things up in there head, as there going along, because, the Koran's teachings fulls on it's face in these modern times. Some of the answers to the questions asked are just SOoooo bazaar, and really just beggars believe. ....Also very entertaining too, better than many comedies being shown on TV in the West ..hahaha!!

David......

[shaun]

David, if most people only knew how they thought they would would not take it so lightly.  People do not understand that is by strength and fear that you rule.  The Sha of Iran back in the 70's  and most recently Saddam Hussein (sp) ruled by fear of death and both would kill a few publicly just to make their point. The Koran says that if your brother leaves Islam for another religion it is better for him to be put to death than to live as a non-believer. (I should re-memorize that passage again so that I write it correctly. Something looks wrong.)  I once spent an evening talking with a Palestinian man in either 93 or 94.  He told me that he Praised Saddam Hussein and would spit on Yasser Arafat.  This was shortly after Iraq fired a missile and it hit Haifa.  I said, "But if Saddam has his way in killing the Jews he would kill you, your wife and two children." His response? "Yes but if he killed only one Jew then Ala be praised."  The look on my face must have been total shock.

People do not realize it is a religion of violence that for the fundamental Muslim their mission is to kill anyone that is not Muslim.  I have heard but have not verified that Muslim martyrs get 70 wives in heaven. I thought they were saying it was heaven?

[Vince G]

Shaun I think you are wrong or misinformed? Only going by what I have heard but the Koran does not have anything in it saying kill others that are of different religion. Jews, Muslims and christians lived in Jerusalem with peace for a long time (hundred (s) of years). It is just the newer Muslims that interpreted it differently and have started there own crusade.

[David5o]

Shaun,

All dictators, rule by fear of torture and death. Their has been and still are Islamic dictators that fear these new style Islamic fundamentalists themselves.  A very good example is Gaddafi.

Now, ....Many may think that he promotes terrorism, and he probably does, but not Islamic fundamentalists. Far from supporting them he goes out of his way to stop them in their tracks.  He is actually the BLOCK along the North African coastal countries. Which is why the West, in the whole left him alone, he was serving a need. To say he is ruthless is the biggest understatement anyone could make. I've seen him enclose complete towns with troops, no-one in, and no-one out....then go house to house through that town, (not always one town at a time, sometimes 2 or 3), looking for these people, and he normally gets them too..... The biggest threat to him was never the Americans or the western nations, it has always been the Islamic fundamentalist factions.  

It may sound strange to you, but i lived /worked in Libya for 30 months, and i never once felt, in the least threatened or afraid. Somtimes i was traveling by car on my own, distances upto 900Km between the stage 1 project's maintenance facilities. (Great Man Made River Project)

Saddam was another such dictator, he also went out of his way to find and destroy these fundamentalists. Which is why at one point in time the West was supporting him in the wars with Iran. Haddad in Syria is yet another.

To be completely honest, the Middle East is one big powder keg waiting to go off. .... What many don't realise, is that none of them trust each other, not even close!! If they had of joined together in unity at the start of the 6 day war, it's debatable whether Israel would still be on the map. but that chance has now long gone for them.....

This is where the Islamist's have overcome that national problem in the Middle East. For them there are no national boundaries, their are no nationalities, they are Muslims, all held together by the common fundamentalist ideals, where terrorism forms part of those ideals to further there cause. We, the West had better watch out and start preparing for a very long conflict......

Sorry if I'm babbling on,  but I'm also working on my computer here, and keep having to come back to say a bit more, ... but alas, my mind is jumping from one thing to another. I just can't multi-task, like i used too. ...hahaha!!

David....

[Rhonald]

If they had of joined together in unity at the start of the 6 day war, it's debatable whether Israel would still be on the map. but that chance has now long gone for them.....

Now military history is more my area of expertise. For the six day war, they never had a chance, even if united. The Israels knew that an invasion was planned and they did a massive premptive airstrike to win air superority. Once they had it, it became a clean up operation. Thus the quickness of this war.

Now Yom kippur war was different in that the Arab's launched a surprise attack on Israel that for the first 2 days Israel was in deed taken back. But eventually Israel thwarted the invasion and started making in roads back in reclaiming territory. The surprising thing is that the higher level's of government new that a surprise attack was going to happen but decided not to call troops back on the eve of the big religious holiday. Why?

They got tired of defending first by aggression, because then the world  countries, through the UN, denounced Israel aggression. So they risked their own county's survival to take world opinion out of their conscious, military descion making.

[David5o]

Rhonald,

I bow to your superior knowledge. ..... To be honest, i could only remember the name of the 6 day war, couldn't for the life of me remember the ''Yom Kippur''  name. From some of my readings on that score, The Arabs didn't stick together throughout that campaign, so the strikes that were expected to be simultaneous, ... didn't happen like that. Then the grounds that were expected to be covered by those relevant individual forces wasn't, .... some stopped and dug in, ...waiting to see how far the other forces had gained.  Hence, the eventual collapse of the united Arab invasion... As i said, they don't trust each other, let alone anyone else. It's the typical Arab mentality, they think all are like themselves and they don't trust themselves either   hahaha!!

David.....

[Rhonald]

 so the strikes that were expected to be simultaneous, ... didn't happen like that. Then the grounds that were expected to be covered by those relevant individual forces wasn't, .... some stopped and dug in, ...waiting to see how far the other forces had gained.  Hence, the eventual collapse of the united Arab invasion...

Yes you are right, they didn't push hard enough when they had their chance. Something else the Israel learned was that they use to allow females on combat missions, but where the Arabs would easily surrender, if they found out they where fighting females, then they rather keep fighting on then surrender in disgrace. Of course this would cause more casualties, hence the Israels stopped using female combat troops on the front lines.

[Arnold]

Since this subject of Religion is going back and forth , I thought this ( today's reflection from " The Awakening Heart " by Betty J. Eadie ) would fit perfectly into the resent posting's , about ones believes .

To change , I must desire change .

It was important that I not interfere with the spiritual belief's of another by impossing my belief's on them ... In my Zealous desire to be " right " and make other's " right " with me , I had impatiently and judgmentally stepped into their Path , tripping them , hurting myself , and accomplishing nothing . Now I no longer desired conversion for anyone . I saw that they must desire change for themselves ...

[Rhonald]

Since this subject of Religion is going back and forth , I thought this ( today's reflection from " The Awakening Heart " by Betty J. Eadie ) would fit perfectly into the resent posting's , about ones believes .

To change , I must desire change .

It was important that I not interfere with the spiritual belief's of another by impossing my belief's on them ... In my Zealous desire to be " right " and make other's " right " with me , I had impatiently and judgmentally stepped into their Path , tripping them , hurting myself , and accomplishing nothing . Now I no longer desired conversion for anyone . I saw that they must desire change for themselves ...

A great story Arnold and I totally agree: How many times are we knocking at someone's door to let us in to hear our message, only to find out we were knocking at the wall. Hello anyone there....

[Scottish_Rob]

arnold I think that 'To change, I must desire change', was said by Abraham Lincoln, on one of his inaugeral speeches, he 'took' it from one of the many philosopher speech's made by Aristotle...:icon_biggrin: