Religion Thread

[Scottish_Rob]

Do you know something guys, I mentioned this in an earlier post but was in connection to the holocaust...it is people that are evil, evil is as evil does?...Not only was (whether you believe it or not) millions killed in the holocaust, but throughout the centuries since mankind was borne, because of the name of God

Rhonald mentioned Rwanda, what about the early Christians throughout Europe, or Christianity with in the Roman empire..were they just meglomanics or was there some sort of 'belief in God' that made them do it...It has happened for thousands of years and will continue, whether it is in the name of God or not...Until someone can stand up and say ENOUGH, what the bloody hell are we doing to our planet...:@

[shaun]

So, it seems I have been a little abrasive on this thread and for that I am sorry.  Rhonald and Vince if I have offended you some please accept my apology.  However, I will stand behind what I have said about Muslims.  I will say that I do have a few good friends that are Muslim.  They are Pakistan, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.  They all privately agree with me but in public would disagree which I understand.  Unfortunately this is the times we live in and I think it is necessary for us to understand their mindset.

Let me clarify a point here.  I do not think all Muslims are bad just as much as I do not think all Christians are good.  Even the moderate Muslims of this world are terrorized by the radical extremist.  The scary part of the extremist is that they can find support for their belief in the Koran.  They also have unlimited resources financially to advance their cause.  Many of the rich support them because they fear the reprocussions if they do not.

The extremist are not going to go away anytime soon.  We cannot ignore them.  Spain a few years ago decided to pull out of Iraq because they were fearful and didn't want any more conflict with them.  What happened?  They were bombed.

Ron, I do not like some of the things I have said about the Muslims but it does not make it any less true.  Believe me I have lived with them and among them in Iran, years ago.  My mother and I left as the Sha of Iran was being deposed just before the hostages were taken at the American Embassy in either 76 or 77 I am not sure right now.  Several of my Muslim friends in Iran have been murdered there by the extremist.

One last point Ron.  You mentioned that if there is a God that He would not hate or love that he would be neutral.  Well, 1 John 4:8, "he who does not love does not know God, for God is love."  So He cannot be neutral.

So if there is a God that created this universe - then God requires something to die for us to live.

I remember reading about how early settlers coming to the new world expressed religious wonder at the glory of God's work by allowing dieases to reduce the native population. They saw this as God's resolve to pave the way for their settlements. So these where not murderes and killers commiting sins - but their views highlight the fundlmental fault I see in us humans and how religion can shape moral views.

First sentence is a very deeeeeeeep subject but I may be able to answer it a simplistic way.  God does require something to die for us to live. If we want to be Christians and want to follow him we must die to our own evil desires and take up His righteous way.  I will tell you it is not an easy thing to do.  I will spend the rest of my life trying to live this way and will fail sometimes but will pick myself up, ask for God's mercy and continue.  This is a very simplistic explanation but it is much deeper that that.

Paragraph about settlers.  It was the settlers understanding at that time that sinful people died of diseased but in fact the settlers were the ones who brought the diseases.  The settlers had built immunities to the diseases but the Indians had not.  

The settlers were survivors and had seen all kinds of plagues and diseases kill friends and family and they justified it by them leading a sinful life.  Even today people try that kind of justification and it is simply wrong.  Most of the time people get sick because they got sick. They came across the virus by some form of contact not because of sin and not because of satan; simply because of chance contact.

When a group says they want to kill, and wipe out another group, that is based on hatred. And that is not from God.

This is what I am saying. I'm just taking it a little further into all religions. Any religion taken from the bible does not have hatred towards others in it. It is those that have taken it a bit further that do this hating.

Vince, I understand and agree somewhat with the exception of the Koran.  It clearly give the believer the right to take a human life because they are an unbeliever.

Do you know something guys, I mentioned this in an earlier post but was in connection to the holocaust...it is people that are evil, evil is as evil does?...Not only was (whether you believe it or not) millions killed in the holocaust, but throughout the centuries since mankind was borne, because of the name of God

Rhonald mentioned Rwanda, what about the early Christians throughout Europe, or Christianity with in the Roman empire..were they just meglomanics or was there some sort of 'belief in God' that made them do it...It has happened for thousands of years and will continue, whether it is in the name of God or not...Until someone can stand up and say ENOUGH, what the bloody hell are we doing to our planet...:@

Amen Bro.  Preach it!!!!!!!!!!  I have a hard time believing that God has sanctioned all the things that people have claimed in the name of God even current egomaniacs.

[Vince G]

Shaun I do not take offence in any of it. I'm not tiptoeing around subjects but I am trying not to offend anyone either.

[Rhonald]

Shaun great post and for me, my post was not because I had taken direct offense. In fact, to be brutally honest with you, the Muslim religion scares the bejesus out of me. It was just that the last few posts start to give a slant to the easily misconscrewed - Our religion is better than theirs mentality. I just wanted to realign the moral compass that even modern so called Christians can act the same self serving way. I know about the other historic events that Robert refered to, but I chose more modern times to reflect the transgressions. As to the dieases, yes I am well versed in the reasonings. A great book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is a great source of information in this regard. The chapter intitled "How China became Chineses" has great value for this site.

And I still believe that if there is a God, then he could still be neutral. How? God could love a good game of soccer, but has no preference to which side wins (otherwise the Orange shirted Dutch would have won a cup by now). Neutrality and Love can coexist. And if I may be so bold, John got it wrong...he should have said...he who has not loved and lost, does not know God. Because understanding LOVE requires the knowledge of it and the knowledge of its absence.

Shaun I do not take offence in any of it. I'm not tiptoeing around subjects but I am trying not to offend anyone either.

Vince, when I read this post I suddenly had the image and song of Tiny Tim tiptoeing throught the tulips.

[feisnik]

Sorry to interrupt the bickering and fallacies, but since this is THE religion thread, may I ask all my brothers of Faith to please pray for my wife YanFei, that on 23 August, when she is flying from China to America, that she has a safe series of flights with no issues either on the plane or in transferring flights? She is extremely nervous about switching flights in San Francisco where she will also have to go through immigration, gather her bags and recheck them, along with switching airline carriers with only 2 hours between flights!

Also does anyone know how switching from EVA Air to United works in San Francisco International Airport?

[shaun]

Sorry to interrupt the bickering and fallacies, but since this is THE religion thread, may I ask all my brothers of Faith to please pray for my wife YanFei, that on 23 August, when she is flying from China to America, that she has a safe series of flights with no issues either on the plane or in transferring flights? She is extremely nervous about switching flights in San Francisco where she will also have to go through immigration, gather her bags and recheck them, along with switching airline carriers with only 2 hours between flights!

Also does anyone know how switching from EVA Air to United works in San Francisco International Airport?

Yes Nik, I will pray for YanFei.

I've been in the San Francisco Airport and it can be a bit confusing for English speaking people. I would suggest that she go to the airline counter where she deplanes and tell the Clerk what her issues are and ask to be escorted to her next flight.  They should do it. If the do not have a person at the counter that can speak her language they should be able to find one.

[Vince G]

Vince, when I read this post I suddenly had the image and song of Tiny Tim tiptoeing throught the tulips.

Funny you say that. Tiny Tim was a strange guy but was also very religious.

Nik I haven't been to the SF airport I've been to LAX but that was some years ago and it was domestic. So I can't help you there. BUT I have given thought to when my lady comes? and what to do. I have different plan games. In your case could you meet her there? and fly the rest of the way with her? OR just have a floor plan up on the computer and guild her where to go? Will she have a cell that works incase?

[shaun]

Hey Vince, that is a great idea. I will have to remember meeting her at the port of entry.

And be careful of how you talk about Tiny Tim.  He was one of the great spiritual leaders of our time.  NOT!!!!!  The only thing I remember about him was that he was kind of weird and had an obsession about being clean.

[feisnik]

I wish I could Vince, but I do not have the cash to meet her at SFO. :icon_sad:

[David K]

In reply to Irishman's post #70 :-)
"My biggest hurdle to overcome in Christian belief is the idea of heaven or hell. The idea in the "Matrix" movies that making life appear too good was not believable or desired by humans resonated strongly with me. It seems that heaven would be a pretty dull place after a while. Similarly, no matter how bad hell is surely you would become desensitized after a few eons or so.
How to reconcile this?,it seems to me that human life right now is closer to heaven than any idealised version, maybe this is heaven and we relive it over and over and get to experience all the good and bad lifestyles, pausing once in a while in the afterlife to consider the sum total of our experiences before trying a new one?(getting born again and living a new life).
Another concept that seems crazy to me is time and matter, where did all this stuff come from, and when did it start, the idea that it came from nothing seems daft to me but yet i cannot deny its existence.
So while at a certain level religion seems preposterous to me, then so does everyday life which is pretty hard to rule out the existence of!"

My own path was not dissimilar - teenage skepticism, training as a scientist, a  burst of new age courses, a broken marriage...
Finally ended up immersed in "A Course in Miracles" (google) which made a lot of sense of the preceding chaos. It states that the entire phenomenological world is a dream: a dream that we are all separate for each other, and from our creator. As Neo says in one scene - shot in Melbourne - "They/we don't want to wake up".  It states that really we can only experience two emotions - love or fear, and depending on which we chose, a world of dreams arises that depicts our choice. Mostly its fear; nuclear war, peak oil, ghenghis khan, iraq, various genocides- the list goes on.. All arising from a desire to be autonomous, self sufficient and disenfranchised from God. And hell, being defined as a place where God isn't, becomes what this world appears to be. The book itself then takes us through a series of lesson, one per day for 365 days, that are quite profound, and deal with how we block and limit Love, and thus attempt to block and limit the God who created love. Interestingly, many of the concepts used are similar to ancient eastern/chinese thinking (non - dualism).

The Course itself is published in many languages, including Mandarin. So I took my lady a copy, and read it alongside my english one. Very kindly, she humours me; it will be interesting to see how it unfolds. Much of the Course was written in iambic pentameter (Shakespearian blank verse) so if nothing else it will help her english, and, more importantly,  improve my capacity to refrain from judgement :-)

[Danny]

In fact, to be brutally honest with you, the Muslim religion scares the bejesus out of me.

Rhonald, you really need to get out more.

If you met some muslims you would realise that 99.99% of them are just honest and decent folks like anyone else.

If you met Indonesian muslims, Kurdish muslims, Pakistani muslims, Bosnian muslims, and so on, like we have in Australia you wouldn't worry about them at all.

I can remember when the IRA was going around blowing up things. Was it reasonable to say that Catholicism "scares the bejusus out of you" when that was happening? Of course not.

It's the same now. Just take it easy.

[Rhonald]

In fact, to be brutally honest with you, the Muslim religion scares the bejesus out of me.

Rhonald, you really need to get out more.

If you met some muslims you would realise that 99.99% of them are just honest and decent folks like anyone else.

I can remember when the IRA was going around blowing up things. Was it reasonable to say that Catholicism "scares the bejusus out of you" when that was happening? Of course not.

It's the same now. Just take it easy.

Sorry Danny but I do have Muslim friends here and live in a community of immigrants (mainly Siks and Muslims). If you looked at the word I chose "bejesus" and this being a religious thread, and I claiming to be agnostic, you would see the jest of my pun. Although, as I agree with you, most Muslims are good and peaceful people, the religion caters to militant idealism. It requires great discipline and dedication to be faithfull. Heck right now is Ramadan and the 4 muslims I work with are fasting during our hot season. One of them is my second best friend. He knew and went to school with a fellow Muslim that a couple of years ago got picked up because he attended one of those training camps on the borders of Pakastan. The IRA - yes they used terror tactics, but as far as I know, they never claimed a Holy war or believed their path led to paradise.

The Muslim religion spread even faster then Christianity did. While Christians are not clean on there record of spreading their faith peacefully (the Crusades, El Cid) - the Muslim religion spread on the wings of war. Thus, next to the old Viking religion and Valhara, I view the Muslim religion as a warrior's religion.

[Danny]

Sorry Danny but I do have Muslim friends here and live in a community of immigrants (mainly Siks and Muslims).

Well Rhonald, maybe I jumped to conclusions. Apologies for the unkind suggestion in my post. I'll try to be be more restrained in future.

[Rhonald]

Sorry Danny but I do have Muslim friends here and live in a community of immigrants (mainly Siks and Muslims).

Well Rhonald, maybe I jumped to conclusions. Apologies for the unkind suggestion in my post. I'll try to be be more restrained in future.

No worries Danny, for my part I have to be careful with my play on puns. Sometimes discussions of religion or politics is like playing hot potatoes and I have to understand that by using play on words, I might get the wrong reaction.

Heck, after your posting I went to my Muslim friend and mentioned my view point on the Muslim religion and the response I got here. I asked again about that person he knew in school and I was corrected that he got picked up in Afghanistan. My friend said that this person he knew was such a party animal when living here and for the guy to do such a quick reversal, left him wondering how. So it is this sudden fanaticism that I was refering to when mentioning about having the son of God leaving my presence (bejesus out of me):icon_cheesygrin:

[David5o]

Rhonald,

Your Muslim friend was wondering how the reversal came about with his partying friend?? I have a well founded theory on this. His friend was probably going through some bad patch in his life, and turned to an Imam, or some other fanatical faction, that could well have taken advantage of his state of mind at that time. So rather than helping him through his bad patch (so to speak) He/they, probably turned his small problem into a big one with the blame all going onto the western cultures and how they were trying to eradicate the Muslims from the face of the earth...  The rest we know!!

This has happened to many a young man, and a good few women too. We all know, that someone that has a gift of being able to motivate and manipulate others, can do untold harm to the minds of the weak or the vulnerable. ...Especially if they can take that person out of his normal day to day life, and place him in an environment conducive to there fanaticism. Which is another reason why these Muslim fanatics are so dangerous to the world's safety. You rarely find any of the leaders of these groups, going in, and doing any fighting, or blowing themselves up, they get the weak and brain washed to do all that for them.....Guys exactly like your friends, friend....

David.....