Religion Thread

[Vince G]

Sorry you have to do better then these links.

Link #1 - Rubbish, just rubbish. Fulfilled Prophecies
For example, Daniel the prophet predicted in about 538 BC (Daniel 9:24-27) that Christ would come as Israel's promised Savior and Prince 483 years after the Persian emperor would give the Jews authority to rebuild Jerusalem, which was then in ruins. This was clearly and definitely fulfilled, hundreds of years later.

Show me the words that Daniel wrote JESUS CHRIST was the name. In fact show me anything that Daniel was a prophet. What was said was a man will come forth and bring peace throughout the world. They named this man the "Messiah" which is believed to never had come. Some believe it was Christ? Another point - "Jews authority to rebuild Jerusalem" A slid of word here. Not Jerusalem, the Temple in Jerusalem. See how the word changed. BTW The temple was destroyed again. 3 times. The remaining is what is called "The Wailing Wall"


Scientific Accuracy - More Rubbish. Greeks wrote about it for centuries before.

Link #2 - Oh yeah Buy my DVD for proof?
By the way, if you would like some reference materials that are a little more portable than a computer with an Internet connection, a book we recommend is Know Why You Believe by Paul Little. This book is available in larger bookstores and most Christian bookstores. Also, the Tucson Community Church recorded a seminar called “Knowing The Facts Behind The Faith.” It is available on DVD and VHS video (NTSC format). If you are interested in purchasing a copy, you can get one directly from the church that produces them at the Tucson Community Church website. They also handle international orders.

Link #3 - He goes along pretty good and then boom out to lunch. Half of what he says is right. Near the end he has...

The more one studies without bias the teachings found in the Bible, the more he or she will see that they conform to the truths of experience and human nature. It is just as powerful to the lives of people today as to those thousands of years ago.

"truths of experience and human nature." Now that's a point.Lets see what words are true. Which is what started this trend.

Many times in the Old Testament we see the life span of humans reaching great ages. Many as old as 900 years.

The Bible tells us that: Adam lived 930 years. (Genesis 5:5), Seth lived 912 years.(Genesis 5:, Methuselah lived 969 years.(Genesis 5:27), And Noah lived 950 years. (Genesis 9:29), Many people wonder how, or if this is possible.

If you tell me this is true because it's in the bible I will say... How did they count years? To be 900 Years old means 12 months in a years calendar? Right? Which was developed and used by?  WHO? The Romans. I don't think Adam and the rest used the Roman calendar before the Romans made it.

This shows you can not go by every word the Bible has. So back to the beginning the word "FATHER" might not be the correct word given.

[shaun]

Wow, I haven't looked at this thread in a couple of days.  So much to say and so little time.

Vince, I can appreciate where you are coming from but there are several things you might consider.  First is that we can find all kinds of things in and about the bible to disagree about, all day long.  I find that most people are articulate and scholarly on the positions they choose to support.  Authintication is important but sometime you need to authenticate the authinticator, if you know what I mean.  You can find that to be true on both sides of the fence.  When most scholars try to sort through the mound of information to come up with the "truth" it is often that they lean heavily toward those who already support their own position.  With the amount of information at our disposal today it is difficult to sort through the minutia of information to find the actual "truth."

When I was trying to sort a lot of this out for myself one of the things I did was to construct a biblical timeline of the bible simply based on what it said without other scholars trying to support their point of view.  What began to emerge out of that was fascinating to me.  The first thing I discovered, was that it was physically possible for Adam to know Noah's father.  There were eleven generations alive at one time.  Now, did they actually know each other?  The bible does not tell us but the possibility existed because they were alive at the same time for several years.  This is an issue that cannot be proved or dis-proved but again was possible.  Sometimes that is all we have to work with.

It is kind of like evolution.  For those who believe in it they do so with no physical evidence.  If evolution is true it is something that has taken place over billions and billions of years but it moves so slow we cannot see any evidence of it happening right now.  So in both cases based on the merit of the arguments one must take a leap of faith to believe.  However with bible there are consistencies that are in harmony with each other boy differing composers that did not know each other.

The second thing I discovered is that because of the intellectual progress of man at the time of periods in question is that there are great holes that can be filled with anything you would like to put into it.  What I found helpful was just using the bible and basing it just what was written.  At the same time, which is going to sound contradictory but, I would try to get into the period of time that they were writing about and used simple logic not influenced by other opinions.  It can be dangerous to do that but if you discipline your self to be consistent with the document that you are reading it is possible to develop a reasonable assumption.

What one has to do though, is stick to the known things written and not major on the things you conjure up.  For example someone once asked me a couple of questions trying to stump me and refute the bible.  He asked, "are Adam and Eve the only people God created?"  My answer was "yes."  He asked, "and they had three sons, Cain, Abel, and Seth?" and again my answer was "yes."  Then, with a wry smile he asked, "Then who did Cain marry?"  I thought for a minute and then said, "His sister."  You should have seen the look on his face.  He said, "But that isn't in the bible," to which my reply was "there are a lot of things that are not in the bible but happened none the less and if you look at how the bible was written, early on female children were in general not recorded unless there was something notable of significant about them."  So, in the case of Cain marrying his sister.  Is it there? No.  Is it plausible? Yes.

I said all that to say this.  There is more evidence to the all of the stories and ideas in the bible than there are things that cannot be supported.  Because of this it is possible to say the bible is true and can be trusted.  I cannot say that is true about man and quite often the issues and hangups we have about the bible are man related not God related.

Did I step on too many toes?  I hope not.  I hope no one takes offence either.  I tried to frame this in a way that would cause discussion rather than anger or division.

Shaun

[Vince G]

"Then who did Cain marry?" I thought for a minute and then said, "His sister." You should have seen the look on his face. He said, "But that isn't in the bible," to which my reply was "there are a lot of things that are not in the bible but happened none the less and if you look at how the bible was written, early on female children were in general not recorded unless there was something notable of significant about them." So, in the case of Cain marrying his sister. Is it there? No.

I read recently (Commented and didn't believe this guy) wrote that Cain married a creature. Stating that there were other humans not created by God and were considered creatures? Just a FYI minute.:icon_biggrin:

Yes, I know of the women not being noted. This was one of the first questions I had way back in the 70's. BTW I can't recite verses like I use to. I haven't read the bible in maybe 20 years so I'm working off memory. The old 5" floppy in my brain.

But Shaun you kind of made the point I was making. You can't take the writings word for word as what was said and happen. Cain married? and there is a big mystery about that. Because nothing is said of who. So if you take the words of the writings he married? a woman. If it was his sister, a creature, or a wombat? The answer is what you think it is.

Mike, Sorry, you can believe what you want. But I can't bring myself to believe that these men lived over 900 years. Yes they could have counted seasons? But maybe they counted Months and someone slipped in the word year? How does anyone know for sure? But it makes more sense then they lived 900+ years.

[shaun]

Vince,

Has your father or uncle or cousin ever told you that you were wrong when you told a family story that they knew also?  Did they tell you the way it really happened?

The problem with our thinking is that we think from our perspective.  We have so much to entertain us now.  All they had was stories.  If you got it wrong you would hear about it.  Say it isn't so.  In every family and every tribe there were historians who kept the family history.  It is the same today.  Only difference was there were more generations around to tell you what actually happened.  From Adam to Noah is 10 generations.  From Noah to Moses is 14 to 16 generations if I remember correctly.  1000 years? Maybe longer.  Moses thought he should write it down to preserve.  There were too many people to say yes or no to the stories.  It has only been in modern time that people question the validity of what was written.  But then again how much do we see that we forget because of technology.  At issue is not what is written but the gaps or holes.  Too many people have put in unbelievable stories in the gaps over the years.

You mentioned the dead sea scrolls.  What do you really know about them.  There were only a few found that were considered scripture and the findings of those who compared them was no negligible difference from the oldest writings they had prior to the newly found scrolls.  The experts testified that the rest was not scripture.  The dead sea scrolls were around 2000 years older if memory serves me.

The catholics edited the bible?  King James commissioned the editing of the bible.  The commissions, we'll call it that because it is late and my mind is turning to mush right now, charge was make the bible like King James wanted it to read.  They instead removed known errors and edited books out that were in conflict with the whole entire bible.  i.e. and this not actual but with mush mind I will explain it this way.  An example would be like you and your goat will be saved.  Duh!

Please do not take this next comment personal but you disqualified yourself when you said you have not read the bible in 20 years.  How do experts tell when something is fake?  By studying the authentic.  That is how the Bible was edited.  How does an art expert tell when a Rembrandt is fake he/she knows the authentic intimately.

This was a good dialog and I hope you feel the same.  More later maybe.

Shaun

[Vince G]

Mike, why? do you say this?
"accept it, all of it, and for the parts I did not understand, exercise faith OR reject it, and turn my back on God .... never look to Him for anything, never think about it again"

Reject it, and turn my back on God? This is not what I'm saying at all. By having questions on the Bible does not mean to turn your back on God. It is questioning the words of Man. Look around you. It's nothing new it's been going on for many years. Humans change, distort, misrepresent the facts. How big was that fish you caught?

How many people today say God talked to them and told them to? Why don't we believe them? When the writings are camouflaged and you don't see it? You lay blame on the messenger. Jesus was portrayed as a peaceful man. When he went into the temple and saw dealings going on (todays flea market) he angered and turned tables over and chased people out. Maybe this wasn't the first time this happen? but it was the only time that was written.

God's Name: The name of God originally appeared in the Hebrew language as ? which many feel was pronounced Yahweh. The English or anglicised form is Jehovah.

Interestingly, the name in Hebrew ? appears over 7000 times. It was substituted for the titles LORD and GOD in translations of the Bible. There was a superstition that arose amoung the Jews and later adopted by others that the name was too sacred to be uttered or even written. Because of this, early translators stopped translating the divine name and opted to use the impersonal designations LORD and GOD.Shaun, We are on the same page. Just approaching it from a different direction. I'll qualified myself again. :icon_biggrin: I may have not read the Bible in 20 years, but there were 20 years before that, that I did. I believe nothings changed in it since then. I don't consider myself an expert. Just informative. If you (or I) go to a spiritual leader and ask a question? They don't have the answer and will come up with it's Devil talk and thinking that way sends you to hell? Yeah well I guess I'll see you there. (Not you, lol) He can't give an honest answer? But that Rolex sure looks good on him.

In reading the bible I found myself saying, huh! what? This doesn't make sense? Didn't it say on page ? not to and here it say to do? This started the quest. As for the Rembrandt. I went out with an artist. I learned the difference in paintings and I can tell an American from a European and an Asian. I'm no expert there either but if you know the real thing you don't need it to compare each painting you look at.

[Vince G]

No I don't know the name, Nicky Cruz.

But I did know (not personally) Dr. D. James Kennedy. Shaun had brought up the words evolution, "For those who believe in it they do so with no physical evidence". I am going to take this as evolution of mankind? But Dr Kennedy said this same thing and he was wrong. What he said was there is no proof of evolution of any kind? Yes there is, in fossils, and other findings. As for humans there is too. That's how we know people were not as tall as we are today. This a two faced sword. They say evolution never happen just because there is a missing link. But on the other hand they say to believe the bible story genesis with the only proof of the same. Because it's written.

The genesis story is written and the story of evolution is also written maybe not in the bible? But it is also written. Neither can be proven currently but there is more proof of evolution then there is of Adam & Eve.  

All of this can and will be debated till we are gone off this earth and will continue after. I don't expect to win, and what would I win anyway? All I am saying is the bible has had many hands in it. Use it as a guild to living life. Believe there is a superior being that created it all. But don't take every word as law. The words have been changed from the original text to be more understandable to us. When a word like Father is taken only to be used for God? What happens when your child gives you a Fathers Day card? Do you screech at them this word is only for God? You'll have one screwed up kid if you do.

[Arnold]

Each Person's life is multifaceted, and we should trust the power of God and his Angel's to give us every opportunitiy we need to succeed. Our part is to seek to improve ourselves and , about all , to love other's more fully . By Praying for guidance and letting love rule our Heart's and Mind's each day ,we will eventually accomplish our many purposes .
The Ripple Effect ( Betty J. Eadie ) My Work of Faith is a Labor of Love .

[Rhonald]

He asked, "are Adam and Eve the only people God created?" My answer was "yes." He asked, "and they had three sons, Cain, Abel, and Seth?" and again my answer was "yes." Then, with a wry smile he asked, "Then who did Cain marry?" I thought for a minute and then said, "His sister." You should have seen the look on his face. He said, "But that isn't in the bible," to which my reply was "there are a lot of things that are not in the bible but happened none the less

Sorry but your answer "there are a lot of things that are not in the bible but happened none the less can be used to refute your answer to God only creating Adam & Eve. Maybe God created more people than just Adam and Eve and it wasn't recorded in the bible. The Bible was created and put together many years after the stories. No one really know how many stories were lost in antiquity that could have become a part of the Bible. From what I have learned, the book of Revelation barely made it into the Bible. So I am always confounded when the Bible is talked about as being complete. After all the early part of the Bible is also the early history of the Jews people. Many other cultures have similar stories of creation.

[MLM]

I see here that there are many yrains of thought on what religion is, let say this, there are many things that are the same in all religions for it all to be untrue, we all know or heard of the ten commandments, well I will tell you as my grandfather told me as was told by his grandfather to him,
1) The earth is our Mother, care for her.

2) honor all your relations.
 
3) Open your heart and soul to the Great Spirit.

4) All life is sacred; treat all beings with respect.

5) Take from the earth what is needed and nothing more.

6) Do what needs to be done for the good of all.

7) Give constant thanks to the Great Spirit for each day.

Speak the truth; but only of the good in others.

9) Follow the rhythms of nature.

10) Enjoy life's journey, but leave no tracks.

My Grandfather was born in 1864 and died 1977 when he was 113 years old, he followed these 10 laws and he lived a long and full life, he made my Father when he was 86 years old ( yeah wierd to me too) and my dad had 32 brothers and sisters, and yeah family reunions are a bit much.
Anyway what I am saying is there are many different types of religions and beliefs but they all seem to say almost the same thing, so I think we are all right, it's the way we as individuals perceive what we read or hear.

[Vince G]

MM I'm stealing your Great Great Grandfathers commandments. I like them that much. Some family you have there? :icon_cool:

[Norb Smith]

MM now you sound like you have some Native American blood in you, as I have many friends back home in the different tribes that say much the same things about life and the Great Spirit, even if us whites when we came to the west tried to screw things up and belived they were heathens and needed to be exterminated, and to this day I have many friends that tell me I like you but I can never trust you because you are a white man, and as I look at the history I can understand this, the tribes and members I have met, are the Shoshone, the Blackfeet, the Sioux, the Crow and the Nex Perce, and all of them have much the same Great Spirit, and basically the same concepts, with just slight variations to your great gandfathers philosophy about life

[shaun]

Hi guys, Lets stir the pot a little.

Vince in reference to your comment on evolution and fossils. Yes there are fossils but there isn't a single transitional fossil on record.  I have been to Glen Rose, Texas to see the next bit of information personally.  What is significant about Glen Rose is fossil records and human foot prints inside of dinosaur footprints.  The significance is the fossils show that dinosaurs and man existed at the same time and have been dated to thousands of years ago not millions.  This information can be found at http://www.creationism.org/cem/.

You mentioned that our biblical views are are similar.  Really they are not.  I believe the bible is the word of God without question.  There is too much evidence to support my claim.  Many scholars have gone to great lengths to authinicate its accuracy.  I know many people, like you, struggle because it was along time before there was a written record of events.  I have demonstrated how it is possible that we can trust the record we have written by Moses.  I do fill in gaps with my own interpretation but when I communicate God's word it is simply God's word.  If I share my interpretation I will say it is mine and may not be factual.  There is one thought process I have left out.

To deny that the bible is the written word as God had intended in the final analysis is to deny the authority and existence of God.  If God or if you prefer the Hebrew way of saying it Yahweh, is the divine creator of the universe, who created mankind, then why is He incapible of communicating His word accurately, in written form.  The kind of belief you have in the bible as a guide seems pointless and a waste of time if you ask me if man could distort the bible.  Please understand this is my opinion.  Now do I believe people can verbally distort the bible? Yes.  You see it all the time.  But the bible or the written word is quite different.

Rhonald you mentioned that the book of Revelation barely made it into the bible.  Well, there were 9 books of Revelation written.  The one in the bible is the only one that was consistent with the character and nature of who God is.

Guys,  we can debate all of this until Jesus returns and you will have your opinion and I will have mine. Again as I said in a previous post, in general when people study materials in the bible they usually look for opinions that support what they already believe and discount things they do not as trivial.  My studies were to seek the truth with out a pre-determined outcome.

The idea here is to talk and debate but we should shake hands and be friends at the end of the discussion.  Lets just hope we can all agree to disagree and still support each other.  After all, we have a bond here that is unique, in the nature of the person we are looking to share the rest of our life with.

The opinions of the writer of this post do not necessarily represent the opinions of this web-site and its members and should not be taken that way.  For the next 60 seconds we will be conducting a test of the emergency broadcasting system......  :icon_cheesygrin:

Enjoy men and blessing to each one of you,

Shaun

[Vince G]

Mike,
First let me say agree or disagree? I won't be getting pissed off at you or anybody. It's just an open discussion though religion is a rough subject to talk about. But that's part of it. People believe different things. Just can't hold it against them.

adaptations can result in a monkey turning into a camel, or a rhino turning into a kangaroo.... that is way off base

Yeah I would say that too. But there are alligators and Crocs, whales, many of the birds all evolved that's FACT not theory.  And I do know of Ben Stein's book. Watched an interview he had about it.

A couple of months ago I watched a science show that had a few small sized human remains found (near Asia in fact). They went on with how humans traveled out of Africa and into other areas? I'm not sure what I think of this? I don't believe in all of this but it's on the same list as Adam and Eve. On hold in beliefs. Hey, there's always the alien possibility?

Shaun, I was on the phone most of the night and when I got to post your post showed so I did not see it till after. But like I stated above. I hold no one to the subject. It won't make me dislike anyone for having a different opinion then mine. This I wish the rest of the world would do.

[Vince G]

Ya know I saw something on this or about this recent. I don't recall? that's how much I payed attention to it or believed it. lol I do remember having a good laugh.

Speaking of the book of Revelation? It was a dream basically. When it is compared to modern times there is always symbolism involved. How many  people were said to be the bad boy with the 666 because his name had counted out that way. Or the 4 horsemen could be??? If there are comparisons and could be's then the Words in the bible are not literal? Just making a point.

[MLM]

MM I'm stealing your Great Great Grandfathers commandments. I like them that much. Some family you have there? :icon_cool:

MM now you sound like you have some Native American blood in you, as I have many friends back home in the different tribes that say much the same things about life and the Great Spirit, even if us whites when we came to the west tried to screw things up and belived they were heathens and needed to be exterminated, and to this day I have many friends that tell me I like you but I can never trust you because you are a white man, and as I look at the history I can understand this, the tribes and members I have met, are the Shoshone, the Blackfeet, the Sioux, the Crow and the Nex Perce, and all of them have much the same Great Spirit, and basically the same concepts, with just slight variations to your great gandfathers philosophy about life

Vince, you are more then welcome to use them, my Grandfather would be honored.
yeah the family is a small tribe in and of it's self Hehehe!!!, we hold family reunions at a state park.

Norb Smith, yes I am, I have from my Moms side Irish and Blackfoot, and from my Fathers side Cheyenne and Cherokee, I remember my great Grandfather saying that he trusted the buffalo soldier more the the pinda licoyea ( white man ).
but the Great spirit made no man better then any other and that was from my Dad.
Those are all great tribes and nations, and I have learned to hold no man responsible for what his Government has done unless that man comes to me with war.
It's funny. if you were to see me you would think I was just Irish, but hey its all good.
Maybe some day we will meet at a Pow Wow, one never knows.