Author Topic: Religion Thread  (Read 88241 times)

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Offline Skip

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #75 on: July 11, 2009, 09:05:34 pm »
"Faith is the evidence of things hoped for, the assurance of things not seen".  There will always be a void of pure truth.  It is a necessary ingredient in the life of a "believer".  If you expect to fill in all of the blanks with Absolute knowledge, you are rowing up that famous creek without the necessary equipment.  Even though Josh McDowell has removed much of the mystery with his research, I don't believe God ever intended the story to be absent an element of faith.
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Offline Danny

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #76 on: July 11, 2009, 09:19:45 pm »
Quote from: 'shaun' pid='8113' dateline='1247356503'

A good resource of info are two book called "Evidence that demands a verdict" by Josh McDowell.  It is a dry read but is chocked full of facts and resources.  Josh was an agnostic who was studying law when he set out to prove Christianity false.  What happened is that he discovered truth and has devoted a good portion of his life to seeking out more evidences.


Shaun, I hope your hand and arm is on the mend. It's a nasty thing carpal tunnel syndrome. So I trust this is going to fix it up for you.

That Josh McDowell takes me back. I can remember that book when I was at university more than 25 years ago, like it was just yesterday. How time flies! I was a Christian at the time I read it and I can remember being really excited that there were good reasons to support my faith. While later on I did more reading and thinking about the matter (reaching other conclusions), it really was a book that (at the time) changed the way I thought about things.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 09:21:47 pm by Danny »

Offline Danny

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #77 on: July 11, 2009, 09:24:36 pm »
Quote from: 'Skip' pid='8127' dateline='1247360734'

"Faith is the evidence of things hoped for, the assurance of things not seen".  There will always be a void of pure truth.  It is a necessary ingredient in the life of a "believer".  If you expect to fill in all of the blanks with Absolute knowledge, you are rowing up that famous creek without the necessary equipment.  Even though Josh McDowell has removed much of the mystery with his research, I don't believe God ever intended the story to be absent an element of faith.


Though I'm not a Christian, I agree with this. I believe (true) faith is a gift, "grace". While many people believe simply from the tradition in which they were born in. For people who wish to move beyond mere tradition, I think that it needs to be something that is given to them.

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #78 on: July 11, 2009, 10:38:06 pm »
Thanks for the good words and the hand appears to be healing fine.  Other than the incision, my hand mainly my fingers feel great.  Can't wait to pickup the old guitar and give it a try.  Haven't played it over 3 or 4 years because of the pain and numbness.

We've been talking about whether the bible is or is not the word of God.    Faith is vitally important but there is the struggle with intellectual assent.  Rather than writing a dissertation, because of my hand, I chose to recommend a book.

But please continue to offer input, this is the one thread where we can talk freely about religion and not worry about offending someone.  When we do not agree with each other, we choose to disagree and remain friends.

So, Danny, if you do not mind me asking, if you are not a Christian, what religion do you belong to or are you an agnostic? I only ask because if we speak about religion it helps me to understand what belief system I am speaking with.

Vince G

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #79 on: July 12, 2009, 12:05:16 am »
arrrggg we got a mixed bag here. There's a comment in each post I want to say.

1. agnostic who was studying law
I can see it was a far stretch for this guy coming from where he did.

2. prove Christianity false.
This is an impossible task. It can not be proven false. It's like saying to prove love isn't a feeling?

3. "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. " - Hebrews 11:6

This is what I call the christian bounce. If you talk of christianity they bounce into the old testament for proof of the new testament? christianity is just the one.

4. what belief system I am speaking with.
See this is what bothers me the most the spin offs to accommodate what you want to believe. This shows clearly there was and is a problem in the writings, believing and faith of.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 12:05:35 am by Vince G »

Offline Skip

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #80 on: July 12, 2009, 12:36:06 am »
I deplore long posts.  So, it is with a great deal of reticence that I make this one.  

The Christian faith is a mystery.  As a young boy (13 years old) I made a profession of faith.  I grew up in Oklahoma.  I lived adjacent to a Baptist church.  The preacher would come by my house weekly to remind me (and my parents) that I was surely destined for Hell unless I confessed my sin and repented.  Who wants to go to Hell?  So, with terribly “white knuckles” I complied.  Problem was, it wasn’t real.  Despite being baptized, I lived the next 19 years as an Agnostic.  The only time I attended church was as a fraternity pledge in college.  I was compelled along with other members of my pledge class to take our house mother to church on Sundays.  Purely image—nothing more.  

After college, nothing.  The only time I talked about God was to put him down violently.  I lived as a heathen and did it fabulously.  Bad behavior was my lifestyle.  I got really good it.

When I was 32, in October 1978, God flipped a switch on in my heart.  From that fateful day, my life was transformed.  I remain as sure today as I did then. Plenty of small questions, but not the “big one”.   Do I still make some of the same mistakes today I did then?  Absolutely.  Had I been him, I would have never chosen me.  But he did and he is stuck with me.  

Some people come to belief more intellectually than emotionally.  That’s all about one’s personality.  For others like me, it is more of an emotional experience.  That’s who I am.  Faith does not come from resolve, but rather supernaturally.  It’s not something you decide to have.  It’s a gift only God can give at the optimum time.

I have friends who don’t share my beliefs.  I have some buddies who didn’t when I met them, but do now.  I have prayed for them.  Maybe I wasn’t the only one who did, but had I been, that would have been enough.  

So, if you find yourself thinking I am speaking Chinese about this, it’s okay.  It’s not my timing, but his.  Having a spiritual life is a process.  If God wanted us to all be transformed in a blink he could do it.  Interestingly, IMHO, he does it at his speed and in his time.

If you haven’t begun the journey, maybe a simple request to be given a ticket would start you on your trek.
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Offline Danny

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #81 on: July 12, 2009, 01:38:01 am »
Quote from: 'shaun' pid='8141' dateline='1247366286'

So, Danny, if you do not mind me asking, if you are not a Christian, what religion do you belong to or are you an agnostic? I only ask because if we speak about religion it helps me to understand what belief system I am speaking with.


Shaun, no, I don't mind.

I would probably class myself as agnostic.

My parents are ministers of religion in the Salvation Army, a mainstream protestant denomination.

I enjoy talking about religion.

It takes great care to talk about religion without it ending up being vindictive and unpleasant.

I studied it a lot. I must have read over a thousand of books on the subject. It seems a shame that (for me) the journey ended in a dead end.

I don't read anything about it anymore. I prefer to read novels and history, stories about the here and now.

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #82 on: July 12, 2009, 11:52:01 pm »
Quote from: 'Vince G' pid='8150' dateline='1247371516'


4. what belief system I am speaking with.
See this is what bothers me the most the spin offs to accommodate what you want to believe. This shows clearly there was and is a problem in the writings, believing and faith of.


Vince, I would like to comment on your response to #4.  You have attempted to make a case that man has written some of the Bible and put his spin on it.  You made the statement “what bothers me the most the spin offs to accommodate what you want to believe.”

Just by very fact that you say to accommodate what you want you believe, you yourself have interpreted man’s motivations and put your spin on their reasoning in starting another faith.  The first faith was satanic with fallen angels.  The second related to man and they were Jewish according to the Bible. When Abraham had two sons by two different women, and basically the rejection of the eldest son there was a split in religious belief. You see this even today the major differences born out of rejection. This is where the Muslim faith began. This was caused by a sin issue with man not God.

Then later Jesus came and died and many Jews wanted to follow the teaching of Jesus.  They believed He was the Son of God.  Most of the Jews turned their backs on God and rejected His Son.  A new faith was born called Christianity.  Again, born out of the sin of man not God.

Now we find Christianity with different denominations.  They all essentially believe the tenants of faith but quite often expressed in different ways.  I like how the denomination I serve in says it in relation to other denominations.  "In the essentials-unity in the non-essentials-liberty." So that if you are Catholic and you believe you should worship with through written ritual, or you are Baptist and you want to worship by 3 hymns, a prayer, an offering and a sermon, or you are Pentecostal and you want to hold your hands in the air, worship with many songs, hear a prophetic word with the speaking of tongues, the laying on of hands and oil for healing, and the word preached it is all good as long as we believe the same thing in the essentials.  I.E. Jesus was the Son of God, He was born of a virgin, we must be baptized as an outward sign of our faith, and that Jesus is the way then all is good.

So my question to you is how does that accommodate what you believe?  I see different outward expressions of the same belief.  What is it you see?

Do Christians, Jews and Muslims make mistakes?  Yes. Do they try to follow their faith? There are a lot who do.  The ones you hear about are in general, the ones who do not.

As a believer of God the only stumbling block I need to overcome are the erroneous thoughts in my own mind.  I am reminded of the story of Jesus talking with Peter. You can read it in John 21:20-22 Peter asks the question What about him? He was pointing to another disciple.  Jesus basically said in short, don’t worry about him, you follow me.

The basic problem Vince from MHP is that you get caught up in the sins of mankind and fall on the common argument that the Bible is a good book with man’s influence and his agenda but is a basic guideline for people to follow. At some point a person has to get beyond that and realize it is not about mankind but it is about God and Jesus and all we need to is follow Him. All the rest falls into place as we grow in relationship with God.

Just my humble opinion.

Vince G

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #83 on: July 13, 2009, 01:26:39 am »
Are you toying with me? Did you have a little to much church wine today?  

When Abraham had two sons by two different women, and basically the rejection of the eldest son there was a split in religious belief. You see this even today the major differences born out of rejection. This is where the Muslim faith began.

Religion of one God started thousands of years after Abraham and his sons. As it first started they were call something else I can't recall right now and as it developed they became Jews.

They believed He was the Son of God. Most of the Jews turned their backs on God and rejected His Son. A new faith was born called Christianity.

Jews DID NOT turn their back on their God. And saw Jesus as just a man not the messiah he was claimed to be. OK I'm going to make this statement and then continue with an experiment. Though Jesus said God the Father, He also never said he was the son of. Others did he didn't. Also another statement and I want both of them remembered for the experiment. If you ever were in NYC you had to come across a deaf guy or blind guy collecting money. Ever wonder if they really were?

Ok clear your mind of Jesus and all you know and read about him. All the stories, gone. He's now just a man, a common jewish man. You hear of some man that is a Rabbi is collecting not thousands but a handful of people. It was uncommon for a rabbi to carryon conversations about the scrolls outside of temple. It was more forbidden then. It was considered as talking against the government (Roman Empire). You hear he made a blind man see? But you know the man they mean and he's not blind just a begging bum.

You hear that this man came into the temple and started a riot, throwing things around and tables over. Hey they were just trying to make a buck selling things. People call the cops on him. They throw him in jail for the night. The next day he's in court. The judge says it's out of his jurisdiction. Shouldn't be in Criminal court it should be in civil. They march him down to civil and it gets thrown out. It should be in criminal? They take him back to court again. The judge asks him guilty or not guilty? No reply. He asks again? The man mumbles some gibberish. The judge asks the jury, they come up with a sentence. Case closed.

This is what they saw and knew of him then.

Later on (50 or more years) Christianity was growing from the writings of a few "Followers". The Roman empire fighting this for years decided if they opened it up they can have control of it and the Empire can stay in power. "Constantine" decided this. He made the rules. He put the men he wanted in power of it. All to save the empire and have a name for himself.

I can go on with Nero and the burning of Rome and the blame went to the christians. Nero who wasn't even in Rome at the time, was said to be playing the violin? Just a story, not true.

Spin offs to accommodate beliefs. Well the jews have Saturday so we'll make ours Sunday. Hey lets see how many times we can get them to stand, knell and sit? hehe Hey! there's no singing in church. You want to sing go start your own church. Well I don't like the "Can not Divorce" so lets change that. We can still be christians just make our own religion.


At some point a person has to get beyond that and realize it is not about mankind but it is about God and Jesus and all we need to is follow Him. All the rest falls into place as we grow in relationship with God.  

Mmmm I think this was the same thing Mosses said? and look what happen there? Speaking of Faith? Tell me please how many people READ THE TEN COMMANDMENTS? Answer is just one. Did he relay it exactly as it was or did he change a few words? It's all in Faith. There was another bush we were told to have faith in? That worked out well? So basically your asking me to have faith in stories made up by men that maybe were looking for their 15 minutes of fame? Glorifying things that MAY have happen. No one knows for sure that's why there was so many different accounts of it. But they made sure by destroying anything saying different.

Vince G

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #84 on: July 13, 2009, 07:36:06 pm »
SKIP WROTE,
And, with all due respect, trying to explain my belief system to you is like trying to teach a pig French. It’s a language you can't understand. Does that make me better or brighter than you? Hell NO. I have lived on the spiritual plane which you reside. Now, I am on a different one. As I said in my earlier post: If I had been God, I would have never chosen me. Maybe someday, you will make the same statement.

It’s a miracle man—no human fortitude needed. According to the scripture, David who was a liar, murderer and adulterer was a man who God said “was after his own heart”. Why, David though a King, was the son of a whore, totally rejected by his father—a boy who spent his young life far removed from the household and shamed by his dad. BUT, when the right time came, David knew how to ask for mercy.

"David though a King, was the son of a whore" ? ASSUMED, since no one knows who she was how did they know she was? All we will get out of this is Opinions.

"It’s a language you can't understand" Oh contrair, it's already understood. and surpassed. The word that is suppressed is "Afraid" Afraid of God, Afraid of dying, Afraid if you don't believe a certain way you won't go to heaven. Well? I'm not. If God gave me this life to test me? Why do I have to have a religion telling me what to do or not do? You feel you need it? I don't.

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #85 on: July 13, 2009, 08:12:50 pm »
Quote from: 'Vince G' pid='8347' dateline='1247462799'
Are you toying with me? Did you have a little to much church wine today?

Guy's sorry for the long post but I don't know any other way with all of this.  Plus I am a preacher so go figure...

Too much wine Hmmm…..  Could be!  Well, there would have been a day when that would be true but no more.  Occasionally I might have a beer with a buddy but that may happen 2-3 times a year.

The One God religion started before Abraham and that it eventually became known as the Jewish faith.

The Jews and Christians share most of the same Bible. Christians call it the Old Testament.  The Jews turning their backs on God is common practice.  People do it every day.  It is a human problem.  

At the time of Jesus there were horrible abuses in the Jewish faith by the Pharisees.  The Pharisees tried to cater to Roman Empire just to keep peace but at the same time used them to keep the people under control.  Taxation was outrageous hmmm… like today. Naaa… I won’t draw that parallel.  Laws were being written to suppress the people even further.

Many people responded to Jesus and the Pharisees didn’t like it.  They all but called it a riot but to the followers it was celebrating a new king and they were looking for deliverance from oppression.  The Pharisees called it a riot and were afraid of a rebellion because they knew they would lose power. Out of all of the Pharisees only one stood up for Jesus, I imagine there would have been more but there too were afraid of losing their positions within the hierarchy of Judaism.

Even today in Israel there is oppression with the Jews.  If they were to confess that they were a Christian or believed in Jesus as the son of God they would lose their citizenship in Israel. If I understand it correctly they can still live there but they cannot vote, they do not have access to state healthcare, or any of the benefits provided for by the government.  If they make noise and become activist they are deported. Outside groups (Christians) are allowed to come in because they are looking for that tourist money but they have to be careful with what they say or they have to leave.  I have been there twice.

At the Temple Mount Institute in Jerusalem I have had the opportunity to talk with some of the leading professors there and have asked many questions that they simply refused to answer.  The second time I was there they remembered me and one of the professors pulled me to the side and told me that I asked questions that if they answered them they could lose their funding and citizenship and they will not risk it.  We’ve had many great conversations but there are areas they will not go.

I spoke with an archeologist who has spent most his life in Israel with archeology as his career.  As we discuss certain digs there will be questions he will not answer.  On one occasion we were talking about the war in 1967 where bombs landed in a cemetery just outside of the eastern gate of the old city.  It is a Palestinian graveyard.  You may know that the eastern gate is sealed even the one below the current wall that was during Jesus time.  The bombs blew a hole down and through the gate of the Solomon rock.  He said that he was able to go down there and look at it and found several interesting artifacts.  I asked him what he found.  His answer was “State secret can’t tell you.”

There is a theory that the Ark of the Covenant is buried there.  The Temple Institute says they know where it is. We will not know until it has been revealed.  Side note: Last week there was a report that it was found in Ethiopia and experts are trying to authenticate it. I am not holding my breath.

Sunday vs. Saturday.  Christians worship on Sunday because it was the day Jesus rose from the dead. Stand, kneel, and sit? All non-essentials to the faith but standing and sitting keeps people awake.  Singing vs. non-singing, instruments vs. acapella all non-essential issues.  Divorce is over interpretation of the passage say man should be a husband of one wife.  Still a non-essential but can hurt feelings.  There is a huge difference between religion and denomination. Most of what you mention is personal preference. But the essentials must be the same. I.E. One God, Jesus the son, Born of virgin, Born again, 10 commandments, baptism, forgiving, truthful, and a few others we can talk about later.

The different account and being destroyed? They still exist I have copies of them in my library.  Have read them.  The Gospel of Thomas starts out, “read this and you will be saved.”  It doesn’t even begin to measure up to the other books written that are in the Bible.  It appears to me that you’ve become real syndical of man but blame God or religion.  Put it where it belongs.  You do not trust man and I can understand that.

Now, Vince please do not take the next few questions personal or like I am trying to single you out personally.  There are millions of people who share your opinion and they are questions I ask all the time. But let me ask you. Is there not one man that you can trust, completely?  Does that person exist?  Do you trust yourself?  Why is it impossible to believe that the God who created the universe and mankind cannot believe that He cannot convince one man to write what He wanted written for all mankind to read?

I will close with this scripture passage written long before you and I ever came up with these non-original thoughts and comments.

The apostle Paul wrote Timothy, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 11:20:48 pm by shaun »

Offline Skip

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #86 on: July 13, 2009, 08:36:51 pm »
Well Vince, you have promise.  You, when it comes to God, are an insolent SOB.  

Shaun, has it on me with the knowledge.  I am just speaking from personal experience.  I have only one.  

A couple of things come to mind:  First Jesus was killed because of only one thing:  He claimed to be God.  I would quote the scripture, but you wouldn’t look it up anyway.  I am always intrigued by folks who claim to know so much about religious history though they totally reject the most predominant information we have available.

And BTW, I do have church wine (I am Episcopalian) on Sundays.  Tonight I am drinking a Marini.  However, it doesn’t influence 31 years of my story.

I will issue you a challenge.  One I know you will be reluctant if not totally defiant to accept:  Ask for the truth—no matter how it comes.  Ask for it in whatever manner you feel comfortable.  Then deal with the response.

The “teaching a pig French” thing was not to demean you at all.  So don’t take it that way.

No matter what, I accept you as a man with whom I can have growing respect and friendship.
Skip

Vince G

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #87 on: July 13, 2009, 11:10:19 pm »
OK guys the wine comment was a joke. So I wasn't accusing anyone of anything. I said the wine thing to priests and deacons. I called multimillionaires idiots to their face and even told Billy Joel I was tired of his last album make something new. It's a way to show them I'm not like the other asskisses and we will be talking man to man.  

So Skip I don't know if you read the earlier posts but no matter what is said we walk away friends here. So in relation to the above statement, if I want to call you names I'll say it to your face or in a PM since I won't travel just for that. :icon_biggrin:

The jewish religion started with Abraham. Yes, but I wouldn't call it a religion at that time. This is where we are going different paths. The "religion" came later on.

I didn't know what you said about christians in Israel? The only people I knew there were Jews. Which brings up a sad story. Someone I knew from my old forum and we talked much like we do here. We went to the same High school and after school he married another alumni and they moved to Israel. They loved it there and made a family. We never really spoke of religion. We did talk of his son and daughter getting married 6 months apart and of the fighting that was going on there at the time. He said he lived away from that. The daughter was the younger but got married first. His parents came in from NY and they had a great time. Later it was the sons wedding. They were getting ready for that so he wasn't posting as much. On the TV a few days later they are talking of a snipper that shot at passing cars and one was person driving was killed. I got a bad feeling about it. Few days later I got the word it was him. He was driving and his father was in the passenger seat. His wife and mother were in the back seat going to the wedding. Killed him instantly, his father grabbed the wheel and kept the car going out of the area. His parents were OK but his wife also was hurt. Sorry but when I read the name Israel it makes me think of him.  

As for the Ark? I did hear something about it MAYBE being almost located? But I'll believe it when I see it.

shaun

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #88 on: July 13, 2009, 11:24:25 pm »
Forget about the wine, I knew it was a joke and was not offended.  A little clarity here.  Christians do live in Israel but are not citizens.  They cannot be.  Only Jews can unless the say that Jesus is the Son of God or that they are Christians.  I have been to church services there where they take up all of the cameras because there are Jews that go to church there.  They do not want any evidence that they go because they could lose their citizenship.

Offline Rhonald

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #89 on: July 13, 2009, 11:40:42 pm »
Didn't Indiana Jones find the Ark? Next your gona tell me Hollywood is fake.
Life....It's all about finding the Chicks and Balances