Author Topic: Religion Thread  (Read 88234 times)

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Offline David E

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #450 on: January 21, 2013, 10:10:19 pm »
As I am sure you will all guess....I am stuck at home with a foot problem (cant walk for 10 days while the operation heals)...so I am taking the opportunity to excercise my debating skills  ;D ;D ;D

I was musing on the statement that "you dont get Christians bad mouthing Aetheists or Agnostics" and I came to this conclusion....

They dont need to...because the very definition of an Aetheist puts them outside of the proper "rules" of Christianity and thus automatically condems them to eternal dammnation. Therefore by automated response, the Christian dogma has already bad mouthed us....we are condemmed by this dogma to be evil, you can simply ride this dogma and by association we are all bad !!!.

BTW Willy...If we want to enter vigorous debate with anyone on any subject, we have a responsibility to understand (or at least attempt to understand) all aspects and all points of view within the debate criteria. Then we dont get into the "because I said so or God said so" end games which so often accompany debates of a religious nature. As a committed individual, I must be prepared to properly and factually defend my position before I have any rights to comment on anybody elses'. I can only pass comment on your views compared to mine if I try very hard to know and understand what and how your views are.

Believe me, as an Aetheist I get more often verballed and abused than any Christian does and simply because of the word "Aetheist" being seen akin to Hitler or Ghengis Khan or Jack the Ripper, evokes very un-Christian responses from so-called Christian people. So dont think for one moment that it is only Christians (or believers) that get called upon to justify their position.

Offline Willy The Londoner

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #451 on: January 21, 2013, 10:26:05 pm »
David E! do you believe the bible a mythical novel?

Absolutely..........it is a collection of anecdotal stories assembled over the Centuries and has been oft repeated and translated. It has no more basis in facts than Aboriginal rock carvings, Viking runes or a Dickens story....

Well at least we can say that you have not put your foot in it today.  Hope it gets well soon and does not cause you too many problems.

The problem is that no one has ever invented a time machine and probably never will in the future so we will never know for sure. But if we did would we believe those who travelled on it.  Of course some would but most would not.

My own opinion on the Bible is that the stories were taken from one to another by word of mouth over the years - (ever played Chinese Whispers the words whispered at the start change considerably before they reach the end of the line).   Committed Christians will tell you that the words in the Bible were selected by God and put into the mind of the first person who printed it a few hundred years ago.  With all modern techniques available today man still cannot agree just what the writings say. So how could anyone translate the writing several hundred years ago when education was lacking for all.

So I have to agree with David E on this.

Are the stories taken from real life or where they written to have a meaning. Shakespeare, Hans Christian Anderson and the brothers Grimm and others wrote things wit a meaning behind them.

Are they just stories or real life.   That is the difference as to what you believe or not.

Do you believe that we evolved from creatures in the sea over millions of years or was we suddenly made in the 'Image of God'? What is the image of God  was he neanderthal like, or did he have the looks of an African, Chinese, Arab (but definately not European as acccording to all the experts we are just mutants of the original people).

I am sure others will have a theory on this.

But whatever it is it will not prevent me living the life I do in the manner I do. 

Willy

 
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Offline David K

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #452 on: January 21, 2013, 11:09:56 pm »
David E! do you believe the bible a mythical novel?

There is clear evidence that it is not the work of an Infallible God :)

Try reading "The Bible Unearthed"  by archaeologists Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman

They state   "The historical saga contained in the Bible -- from Abraham's encounter with God and his journey to Canaan, to Moses' deliverance of the children of Israel from bondage, to the rise and fall of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah --was not a miraculous revelation, but a brilliant product of the human imagination."

It seems that around 630 to 600 BCE, in the court in Jerusalem, a national epic was compiled as a propaganda tool, to unite and energize the population with tales of past glories. This epic was woven together partly from oral traditions that may have preserved some dim memory of actual persons or events, but because it was written hundreds of years after the times it purports to chronicle, and also because it addressed issues current at the time of writing, there are telltale anachronisms and inconsistencies with the findings of archaeology.

Among the problems:

1:    According to the Biblical chronology, Abraham and the patriarchs of Genesis were active roughly 2000 BCE. The stories make repeated mention of camel caravans. However, archaeology has shown that camels were not domesticated until much later; camel caravans were no earlier than 1000 BCE.
2:   There is no evidence for the Exodus as the Bible describes it. The Bible does not give an exact date for the Exodus, nor refer to the pharaoh of the time by name. There is a stele of Pharaoh Merneptah mentions a people named Israel living in Canaan by 1200 BCE, so the Exodus should have occurred some time before that. However, there is no Egyptian documentation of any large group of slaves of any ethnicity leaving Egypt during a likely time frame. The population of Egypt was not over 5 million at the time, and it is out of the question that nearly 1 million people could leave without some kind of record or evidence.
3:    There is no evidence for a swift, decisive military conquest of Canaan by Israelites by 1200 BC. And it does seem implausible that a ragtag group of slaves, however numerous, could have managed a well coordinated attack on an entire region after 40 years of wandering in the desert.
 4:   According to the bible, King David and his son Solomon reigned over a large territory, from Mesopotamia to Egypt, and had the wealth to build impressive temples and palaces. This monarchy would have had to have ruled in the range of 1000 to 900 BCE or so. Yet archaeologists have not found any monumental architecture at all dating to this time in Judah. Apparently Jerusalem was a rather small village at the time.

If you have further questions, try the attachment :)
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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #453 on: January 21, 2013, 11:18:22 pm »
Well have to get my 2 cents in. I have no problem with Buddism. It is what it is.

and Willy hit on the right subject "ever played Chinese Whispers" here we called it telephone and they had other names for it but it's all the same. This is how the bible was written from stories centuries old. No offense to the jews or anyone else but they are good story tellers much like the Brits and Irish.   ;)


But I have to tell of this afternoon. Two young women 17-18yo knock on my door. These religious "people" come to the neighborhood weekly (usually the weekend) and they asked if I wanted them to say a prayer for me and my home? I tried to talk them out of it but didn't have it in me to be a bastard (like I do to the adults) and tell them off. So they said their prayer and asked if I would come to their church to be baptized? Very insistent. Since I had no idea what church they meant (we have them by the dozen here), I asked for the info. They gave me a card, the church is about 8 miles away... The Mormon church. If any religion I feel least of that was it. 

Offline David K

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #454 on: January 22, 2013, 01:37:14 am »
Shall we move onto Buddism the only religion not to have started a war in their own name!
Come to think of it then neither has the new China.
Willy
Lets not forget the godless Deng Xiaoping's 1979 miscalculation
Over 30,000 Vietnamese and Chinese soldiers died in short but fierce war fought at the two nations' borders in 1979
To see more try : http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1879849,00.html
But that's small change compared to actions of the Christian USA - 32 countries bombed or invaded since WW2.
"By their fruits ye shall know them"
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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #455 on: January 22, 2013, 07:48:53 am »
"the Christian USA - 32 countries bombed or invaded" ???

Whatever conflicts the US has had had nothing to do with Christians. This is one of the first laws made with the birth of the country. No Religion shall rule the government.

Offline shaun

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #456 on: January 22, 2013, 10:51:32 am »
David, sorry to say that it wasn't you that drew men into this conversation but Vince.  I commented on what he said and then commented on a couple of other opinions.

Willy said;
Quote
But whatever it is it will not prevent me living the life I do in the manner I do.

I know from experience David that no matter what I say I won't convince you to change your belief system and you won't change mine.

I would love to debate you but frankly I don't have the time.  I've started a new business that is doing quite well which is consuming a lot of my time.  Any extra time I have I would rather spend with Peggy.  So at this time my friend I will bow and leave you with an open floor.

To others that wish to debate David E, you'd better be on your A game and have your reference material ready.  He is as smart as the come and well read to boot.

Offline David K

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #457 on: January 22, 2013, 02:05:45 pm »
"the Christian USA - 32 countries bombed or invaded" ???
Whatever conflicts the US has had had nothing to do with Christians. This is one of the first laws made with the birth of the country. No Religion shall rule the government.

"In God we trust" was adopted as the official motto of the United States in 1956 as an alternative or replacement to the unofficial motto of E pluribus unum,
 adopted when the Great Seal of the United States was created and adopted in 1782.
"In God we trust" has appeared on most U.S. coins since 1864 and on paper currency since 1957.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 02:39:49 pm by David K »
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Vince G

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #458 on: January 22, 2013, 07:08:25 pm »
"In God we trust" is basically a simple concept that seems to confuse many still today. It did start in 1957 and I know this for... well I was there.  ;D


Thou the founding fathers were different domination christians, religion was written into the Constitution.

U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Proposed 9/25/1789

It goes on to say (simpler words) that the government shall not be ruled by any religion. So it may have the word God in many places, we do not invade or go to war over religion.                 

Offline Willy The Londoner

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #459 on: January 23, 2013, 01:17:50 am »
Shall we move onto Buddism the only religion not to have started a war in their own name!
Come to think of it then neither has the new China.
Willy
Lets not forget the godless Deng Xiaoping's 1979 miscalculation
Over 30,000 Vietnamese and Chinese soldiers died in short but fierce war fought at the two nations' borders in 1979
To see more try : http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1879849,00.html
But that's small change compared to actions of the Christian USA - 32 countries bombed or invaded since WW2.
"By their fruits ye shall know them"

Yes you are completely right about that by I was referring to New China that only started in 1982 when they realised the power of Commerce was more powerful than Communism.  Since then many wars and conflicts have taken place. None involving China.

Willy
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Offline Rhonald

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #460 on: January 23, 2013, 09:02:33 am »
Yes you are completely right about that by I was referring to New China that only started in 1982 when they realised the power of Commerce was more powerful than Communism.  Since then many wars and conflicts have taken place. None involving China.

Willy
 
On March 14, 1988, a naval battle was fought between Vietnam People's Navy and People's Liberation Army Navy at Spratly islands. The battle resulted in the death of 70 Vietnamese soldiers and since then, China has controlled Johnson South Reef of Spratly islands.

Since 1979, there were at least six big rounds of clashes on Sino-Vietnamese border, in June 1980, May 1981, April 1983, April 1984, June 1985 and December 1986-January 1987. According to Western observers, all were initiated or provoked by the Chinese to serve their political objectives.

Just because China has not been involved in as many clashes as a few other western nations, I view this more because their end game strategy is very similar to a chess player Petrosian: Petrosian was a conservative, cautious, and highly defensive chess player who was strongly influenced by Nimzowitsch's idea of prophylaxis. He made more effort to prevent his opponent's offensive capabilities than he did to make use of his own. He very rarely went on the offensive unless he felt his position was completely secure. He usually won by playing consistently until his aggressive opponent made a mistake, securing the win by capitalizing upon this mistake without revealing any weaknesses of his own.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 09:12:00 am by Rhonald »
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Offline David K

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #461 on: January 23, 2013, 05:58:24 pm »
I've started a new business that is doing quite well which is consuming a lot of my time.

A British Engineer has just started his own business in Afghanistan.
He’s making land mines that look like prayer mats.
It’s doing well. He says prophets are going through the roof…
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Offline Peter Arnold

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #462 on: January 24, 2013, 06:44:50 am »
David, you are a bad man! ;) I got a feeling this one should have gone in another thread. But at least it has lightened up the discussion ;D
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Offline David K

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #463 on: January 24, 2013, 03:42:02 pm »
I got a feeling this one should have gone in another thread. But at least it has lightened up the discussion ;D
Prayer mats, Prophets -  and giving some folks a lift in their day ... must fit in the religion thread...;)

But if you want serious   :o   try
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/these-misguided-muslim-sharia-squads-are-playing-right-into-the-edls-hands-8461901.html

Might make Willy glad he's moved to a civilised country  :)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 04:58:28 pm by David K »
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Vince G

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #464 on: January 26, 2013, 08:59:34 am »
oy vey