[split] From the Passport up.

[David5o]

Paul,

Your still wrapping yourself up warm in figures that have already been called to question as to there accuracy.

My reason behind the statement about Refugee's/Asylum seekers is that, Why are they there in UK in the first place?? They cross scores of countries that are more than able to accommodate them, but NO, they come to the UK. So as far as i'm concerned they are basically illegal economic immigrants trying to get in the back door. Is that clear enough??

You can spout reports and figures from now to next year, I've already expressed my thoughts on government figures etc, there there for a purpose, and it's certainly not telling you the full picture. And there certainly not ''Facts''  Like so many in the UK your being treated like mushrooms, ...Kept in the dark and fed plenty of shit!!

You or Philip have yet to answer any questions that i've put in these posts, instead you spout of meaningless figures, and divert off into other areas widening the subject, i first commented on. If you want to widen, i can widen as far as you want. I don't walk around when back in the UK with blinkers on. I can see with my own eyes what's happening back home. For you and Philip, to come out and tell me i'm wrong and that everything in the garden is rosy, ...just beggars belief!!

I was home during the major influx of the Bosnian refugee and asylum seekers. They were given hundreds of pounds each on arrival, they WERE  given priority on housing, and they were and still are getting more than 38 quid a week. ....either that, or there subsidising there income thru there illegal activities like the thieving and pimping they seem to have made there trademark in my old area. So, why are these so called refugees still in the UK, the conflict in that area has long since passed??

Paul there are so many hidden costs to immigration, and especially Asian immigrants. Language is a big hidden cost, like Special teachers at schools, Translation services at every National and local authority public service level, (from the inland revenue thru to Social services and everywhere in between and beyond) Medical and psychiatric services is another big cost ticket, and that's apart from the additional strains put on those services. So i reiterate once again, Immigration has a debt cost to the country and don't be fooled into thinking otherwise.... That Home Office report, was as i remember a part of the dropped Parliamentary Report you were quoting in an earlier post, ....It's only a comfort to those that WANT to believe they generate a surplus....

Seems to me, that anyone that does not agree on many of the current immigration issues are quickly labeled racists, and were nothing of the kind, we are people that can see what has happened and is still happening to our country and our society. And quite frankly we don't want it to continue,...enough is enough!! Contrary to what we are all given to believe, Thru the media officialdom, and the TV, the general population that have had enough are not in the minority, we are in the majority.  But are browbeaten to say nothing, because at the end of the day it only causes trouble for us.

I have read what Willy had to say here, and frankly that is a genuine typical Londoner reaction. Unlike Willy,  many have tried to move out into the suburbs or into adjoining County's in the past, only to find a few years later the same thing happening there too. Willy is now in the right place as he's now the immigrant, but an immigrant that has no cost to his new country, and that's exactly how it should be in the UK .....ZERO cost!!

Paul, ...You, Philip or anyone else for that matter isn't going to convince me that what i see with my own eyes and what i have personally witnessed is WRONG,  and that conceived reports and creative accountancy along with your personal suportive views are RIGHT!!, there NOT, ...not for me!!....

David.....

[Paul Todd]

David,

I have no need to wrap myself in warm figures, and by whom are they  being called into question ? You say you do not trust Government statistics but a lot of the reports I quoted where not by any government body but by mori polls and Oxfam. The government reports that I did include where backed by Amnesty International, Oxfam,  the Refugee council and more.
I total agree that the system we have in the UK is by no means perfect but it is being reformed and in the correct way I believe.
To class all asylum seekers as economic migrants is crass and dangerous thing to do. I know how much you dislike research and  reports but here is another one released today by the Refugee council in conjunction with Swansea university { not a government stooges} and states:
January 2010
 
Independent research published by the Refugee Council today has revealed refugees have little, if any, choice over which country they claim asylum in, and that few know what to expect before they arrive in the UK. The groundbreaking report ‘Chance or Choice: Understanding why asylum seekers come to the UK’, by Professor Heaven Crawley of Swansea University, also shows that harsh policies which make the lives of asylum seekers tougher after their arrival in the UK have no demonstrable influence over whether people claim asylum in the UK.

In-depth interviews with asylum seekers and refugees revealed that:

•Over two thirds did not choose to come to the UK.
•Most only discovered they were going to the UK after leaving their country of origin.
•The primary objective for all those interviewed was reaching a place of safety.
•Around three quarters had no knowledge of welfare benefits and support before coming to the UK – most had no expectation they would be given financial support.
•90% were working in their country of origin and very few were aware they would not be allowed to work when they arrived in the UK.
The majority of the interviewees explained their lives were in danger and that they had to leave their home countries very quickly– within a few days or weeks – leaving them little time to plan or pick their destination. In addition, most were helped to leave by an external party or agent, who made the key decisions about their destination and helped facilitate their journey to safety.
While none of those interviewed came to the UK in order to seek work, they fully expected to have to work to support themselves, and were not anticipating being given money by the government to live on. The single biggest area of British life they were familiar with was football.

In the  1990s, the inflow of irregular migrants to meet strong labour demand reached levels that wrecked the refugee system.  In the popular mind, the adjective "bogus" became indissolubly cemented to the noun "asylum-seeker". I agree that there are many people coming to our shores in the hope of a better life and are piggy backing on the genuine refugee's. No one can deny this as the figures that you so easily dismiss prove. Roughly two thirds of all applications are refused they are kept in camps and returned home. I will not widen the debate to include this as you seem to think this to be a narrow subject. I at no time said that everything was Rosy in the garden and to infer that from my posts is misleading. Once again I agree that there are many hidden costs to immigration if you want to focus on the negative side be my guest.

Myself I think as a modern Christian democracy we have a duty not only to shelter people who are in danger form tyrannical governments and illegal regimes but to set an example for others to follow. How can we as a country turn our backs on such people. If the cost of this is that a lot of unscrupulous people try to work the system well that's just human nature. For some perspective on the whole question here some more of those figures you dislike and mistrust so much David. This time from the UNHCR and not our government:

The UK is home to less than 2% of the world’s refugees – out of 16 million worldwide. (UNHCR, 2007 Global Trends: Refugees, Asylum seekers, Returnees, Internally displaced and Stateless Persons, 2008)

•Over 520,000 refugees have fled the conflict in Sudan to neighbouring countries, yet only 265 Sudanese people applied for asylum in the UK in 2007 (UNHCR 2007: Global Trends; and Home Office Statistical Bulletin: Asylum Statistics United Kingdom 2007, 2008)

•About 80% of the world’s refugees are living in developing countries, often in camps. Africa and Asia host more than three quarters of the world’s refugees between them. Europe looks after just 14%. (UNHCR, 2007 Global Trends: Refugees, Asylum seekers, Returnees, Internally displaced and Stateless Persons, 2008)

•In 2008, the UK was ranked 17th in the league table of industrialised countries for the number of asylum applications per head of population. (UNHCR Asylum levels and trends in industrialised countries 2007 and 2008 )
 Do you believe that this small number of people reresent such a large threat to the English way of life as to lump them all together and turn your back on them? What for economic resons!

I have some simpathy with Willy's view as we get older we notice the changes all around us an in some respect long for the things to remain constant. Before I moved to China I took a trip back to my old home town, couldn't regognise much of it and in my view the majority of changes where not for the better. Makes me wonder what the Victorians and even before that thought about the successive waves of foreign immigration into London, The Huguenot refugees in Spitalfields in the 17th century who were followed by Irish weavers then Ashkenazi Jews and, in the 20th century, Bangladeshis. I'm sure they spoke the same words....I remember when.....:icon_cheesygrin:

[Vince G]

Jezzz can we get a truce here soon? I am gratified for all the knowledge and for not stooping low into name calling. Amen! :-/

[Willy The Londoner]

But Paul why by your figure are there approx 320,000  ayslum seekers in the UK.

You should claim asylum in the first country you arrive at.  To GB that mean people from Ireland and France, Netherland and Belgium, Portugal and Spain and maybe a few other countries can reasonably apply for ayslum in the unlikely event that their lifes were in danger if sent back to these countries.

So 2/3rds did not choose to come to Britain.  Are you telling me that they have been drugged and suddenly wake up outside the social security office after travelling thousands of miles in many cases.

I am with David on this one.  The figure quoted as official are a load of rubbish,  being involved with Black Churches in London I know just how many illigal immigrants there are - these are condoned by the majority of pastors - why because of money- they pay 'tithes' to churches from whatever they can illegally obtain.  

Just see what happens when the Border Agency sts up at Stratford Staion the word soon goes round and you see the hundreds going off to work reduced to a trickle as hundreds turn round and go home waiting for th execisae to finish.

Unless someone gets off a plane having travelled from the Country they are running from AND SHOW travel documents from that country then they should be sent right back.  

Those coming across the channel have no rights.  Even those who have attained their citizenship the hard way are saying enough is enough.    

Willy

[David5o]

Vince,

This maybe a heated discussion, but i bear no malice towards Paul or Philip, and i hope they don't towards me. We just hold very different views on this particular subject. We are seeing things from different perspectives basically, and i guess we all think that were right ..lol!!

They aren't going to change my mind and it's obvious, i'm not going to change theirs!! sel-a -vie...haha!!

David...

[Vince G]

I only put my 1 cent in for it looks like a deadlock in figures. I'm not saying anything is wrong. Just wonder where it's going to end? Carry on.

[shaun]

Vince,

You might consider splitting this thread starting at post 31.  I would but I do not know how to or if I have enough stroke to.

Shaun

[David5o]

Paul,

That report you first quoted got panned from many different parties and agency's to the point where it was dropped in favour of a new investigation into the real cost of immigration which i believe is due to be released later this year.

Paul, God, when did anyone ever take notice of ''polls,'' be it by Mori or anyone else's!!??? Oxfam and other agency's have their own agenda's so any report they release or support will always be slanted towards their agenda...good or bad reports!!

Sorry Paul, i don't believe for a New York second the first 4 points you raised about the interviews of Asylum seekers and refugees. As i've stated previously, if these displaced person needed a place of safety, the neighbouring country's would be that safe haven, not a country thousands of miles away from their country of origin..... What external parties are organising these refugees to the UK?? Whoever they are the need to be bloody well  stopped!!!!!

Again Paul, Those many hidden costs are Extremely important, because when you add them all up, your talking about an Extreme amount of money, ....money that could be better spent elsewhere!! If that's what you mean by me being Negative, your dammed right, ...it's one of THE Major issues i have on this subject!!!

Now, about the rosy garden, you didn't actually say it, ...but you are certainly implying it. You said that you enjoy frequenting/visiting the Asian areas.... but you don't live in them do you!! your not having to live there 24/7 like the local indigenous population. You are, or seem to be under the impression, that the these local people welcome and enjoy the presence of these Asians taking over there communities, (and it is a take-over in many cases) ...Well, ...They DON'T!!
I suggest you go and do your own survey, and get the real answers from the horses mouths, so-to-speak!! instead of listening to whats being bandied about by politicians (who are now frightened to upset Asian voters) and the media.... and of course those dammed reports and surveys you take so much heed of.

The fact of the matter is Paul, regardless of how rich/wealthy you consider the UK to be, it is still only a very small country in terms of area. Even in terms of our present population growth, there is already a shortage of housing. We just don't have the capacity to continue welcoming more and more immigrants refugees/asylum seekers, we have far more than enough NOW!! ...So 2% of the worlds 16 million displaced people is 2% too many....

And on a final point, the least tolerated of all immigrants, refugees/asylum seekers in the UK are the Asians. Why is that do you think? My theory is that it's because they don't and wont integrate into the existing communities, but rather congregate into there own communities. The outcome of this is, that as the numbers increase, they take over the whole community. Such as has happened in parts of the East End of London, Wolverhampton, and other city areas around the UK. I'm pretty sure that the waves of immigration in the 17th century you spoke of, bore little or no resemblance to the type of numbers we are seeing today!! And i bet they didn't cost the country a single Penny either!!!  


I have always found as a general trait, that if you give Asians an inch, then there after you for the whole mile. They are never satisfied and always scheming to get more... Now,..Before you start, i have had 100's if not 1000's of Asians workers of every nationality and creed working under me, on virtually every project i've ever worked on over the years, and in virtually every overseas country i've worked in... and i'm only telling here, .... how it is!! ...It's an observation, not a prejudice...

David......Vince,

Sure it'll end in deadlock, i think we all know that... But it's good to hear how the other side see's things, and where there coming from.

Immigration in the UK is no,no subject unless you agree with the ''politically correct'' stand. Most don't, but because of a political party called the NF (basically a Nazi party) as soon as anyone stands up and says anything about foreign immigration your automatically classed as an NF supporter or a racist. When all there really doing is having a concern for there country and where it's going....

David....

[David E]

How about a perspective from an Aussie.........

Much of the debate on this thread enters the half-life of Migrants vs Refugees.

As I am sure you all know, Australia has almost 100% of its population as a result of Migration. Yes, I know there are Indigenous Aboriginals here...but they are a very tiny percentage of the population.

Since the establishment of Australia as a Penal Colony by the Brits in the middle of the 19th Century, some 8  Million "foreigners" have come here as Legal Migrants  ( I was one of them !!!).

Migrants have come from many different Countries and made a cosmopolitan and integrated society which was good to live in.

For many, many years Australia had a "Whites Only" Migration Policy that was maybe Politically unsafe, but was formulated to minimise problems of Culture and Cultural Integration into the existing population.........and it worked !!!

Since the Politically correct decision to abandon ANY Policies based on race, colour or creed was established in the 1980's our racial problems have got worse and worse.

Ethnic seperation and isolation are now inherent in our society....and this is happening in a Migration based culture where every migrant needs to go through a meticuluous and detailed paper process , taking 12 months or more, to get here.

Now we are seeing the results of the "next wave" of migration...the so-called Economic and Political refugees.

Large numbers of people are somehow, at great cost and at great peril, making their way to Indonesia, getting involved with people smugglers
and making the illegal journey across to Aus. When they arrive, they are taken to processing facilities where they are processed as refugees and allowed into the Mainland with mountains of Government money and support systems that genuine Australians can only dream about. One can only ask...."where did such people who are supposed to be destitute refugees get the large amounts of money to pay People Smugglers...because it aint cheap " !!!!! It takes about 8 weeks to get them issued with Temporary Resident Visas !!!!! If I bring my wife/fiance to Aus...and support her 100%, with no assistance from the Gov't. it will take at least 12 months of hell to get a Temporary Resident Visa !!!

To my knowlege, only 4 people have been returned to whence they came because they were deemed security risks...and this happened last week over some Sri Lankans. So what sort of people are we letting into our Country...who knows ...how will this pan out down the track when we have no idea if this is a deliberate act to seed future discontent in our society ??

Meanwhile, thousands of people from all over the World are waiting years to legally migrate to Aus and have been prepared to go down this track, rather than try for illegal entry. This includes all us poor buggers who want to bring our fiance/wife from another country to live with us here.

The issue is now dividing our society, is alienating people from every culture and threatens to overwhelm our basic way of life.

Everybody knows that Australia is a bloody big place with very few people...but most people dont realise that 99.6% of the Australian Continent is a ferocious Desert and would never be fit for human habitation. So all these new "migrants" are living in the cities, our infrastructure is stretched, our Government has gone soft on illegals, they get much more than any "normal citizen" and they refuse to integrate anyway...preferring to exactly match their previous culture and not change.

It is the downside of the Migrant vs refugee debate and here in Aus will sooner or later explode !!!!

DavidE

[Martin]

Since the establishment of Australia as a Penal Colony by the Brits in the middle of the 19th Century, some 8  Million "foreigners" have come here as Legal Migrants  ( I was one of them !!!).

Holy shit!!!  Exactly how old are you?

[David E]

Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery old !!!!!!!!

:icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:

David

[RegnisTheGreat]

I will say this, my parents were immigrants to Canada. Not all asians are like as you described, we have assimilated into the Canadian culture. My first wife is a Quebecer after all (I apologize for all Quebecers).

[Martin]

This will be a debate that rages on forever.  No two sides will ever see eye to eye.  Any country that accepts immigrants will always have this debate.  I know it is similar here in Canada.

I think we should agree to disagree.  Either side is sticking to their guns, and nobody is budging.  I will keep this thread open, however, in the interest of the forum, I ask that you keep it civil, and be careful about comments that can be considered racist.

[David5o]

RegnisTheGreat,

I think you'll find that the gist of what's being discussed here are those Asians from in and around the Indian sub continent.

Yes i agree very much with you, the Chinese do generally assimilate very well into the communities they live in....

David......

[Irishman]

I find this who debate quite interesting as an Irish person.

Before the potato blight arrived in ireland we had a population of over 8 million, afterwards that shrank to around 3.5 million through deaths and emigration.
Potato was a subsistence food for the impoverished and enslaved Irish ..that's another story i'm not getting into! When the crop failed it was starve to death or emigrate.
To this day there are large Irish communities in America and Australia in particular. I've even read tha,t in Boston on paddies day, they dye the river green to celebrate!!
During the late 90's and early 00's we had a massive influx of eastern Europeans here, Polish in particular, and more and more recently, the Chinese (to my delight!!).

So what's the point of my ramble? Well the Irish didn't really integrate well (as in become like the locals), we stayed pretty much with our own communities, had "Irish Bars" but as a generally amiable people I think we were accepted by the locals on as a whole. The Polish immigrants here are just like the famine Irish migrants of old, except in reverse, they are coming to Ireland. They are Catholic, friendly, hard working and likeable. But they have their own shops and pubs  etc just like we have in America and Australia.

The Chinese are like this too, they are likeable, hard working and honest people but they also keep their national identity, just think of Chinatowns everywhere.
When I was in Malaysia in Penang with Ling 2 we went to a music show where Chinese people sang traditional Chinese songs to an appreciative Chinese audience. It really struck me how similar our cultures are. Go to any Irish pub in America or Australia and there with be some guy  with a guitar singing rebel songs full blast and an appreciative misty eyed bunch of paddies listening to them as they down their pints of the "black stuff" (Guinness to the lao wai here :icon_wink:).

Integration is an interesting thing, i think like the Irish, Chinese and Polish people it is possible to keep your own culture and be a welcome addition to society you immigrate into.

However some cultures just don't integrate well  for some reasons..ask any Italian about the Romany people and stand back... Just one example, i can think of many others but don't want to be accused as a racist which I am not.