I have a situation that I need feedback from you guys

[jeffm]

As some might remember  I  posted recently about a  relationship I was  in last year where I got  burned on. Won't go into it, but recently applied that experience to my current situation.  

I met a girl  last month that seemed  to be a love at first site for both of us.  We lived together for 3 weeks, and I went against logic.  I rolled the dice and had her quit her job, move to an apartment in Nanning that we rented, enrolled her in an English language program, and bought her a pre-engagement ring.  I think that pretty much  covers my sincerity of commitment to her.  

I am kind of keeping this from  being  a book, but after I left to go home a couple  of  flags  came up with one flag being bigger than  the other in my reasoning.  I do have friends in China and Nanning in particular.  On  a hunch I called  and asked my Chinese friend  who  is  an English graduate to go on QQ and  send my girl an invitation to talk.  I remembered while with Gina her telling me that she  has so  many people on her QQ list  is  because she accepts all  invitations.  Knowing this I had my friend do it.  As predicted she accepted  his invitation.  Now I was connected with him on video  and audio during  this. Live and real time lol.  They started a chat and he was  relaying what he and her were saying back and forth.  At times he needed me to tell him what to  say.  At one point she asked what he did for a living, and he  asked me what to  answer.  I told him to say that he had a "high technical job in a company in Nanning".  She didn't  immediately reply then I told him to  ask her if she "has  a boyfriend".  Her reply to him  was  "no".  While I should have let the conversation go on I told him that I didn't need to  know anything more as that tells me everything I need to know.  To top it off, right after she said that to him she  sends me two emicons of a cup of coffee and something else (can't remember) lol.  Like nothing just happened LOL.  

When I confronted her about this she denied it several times until I showed her the proof.  She then said that she only tells  her personal  life to her family and closest  friends.  She wasn't going to tell this guy her personal life.  Suffice it say that is a bunch of shit given the stage of the relationship  we are  supposed to be at (engagement).  I've asked my Chinese female friends about this, and incredibly it is split about 50/50 on them doing the same thing as opposed to "that was wrong of her".  I was ready to walk as she was caught red-handed IMO.  She cried her arse off trying to convince me that I am her only man and that she loves me and wants to spend the rest of her life with me.  I decided not to dump her yet, but I  opened up my options again.  I hid my profiles on CL and CLL.  I did tell a  few girls on my QQ and MSN of my engagement, but not  all.  I've learned not to put all  my eggs in one  basket so soon.  I am hopeful this will still work, but I have serious trust  issues with her now.  Given  my last experience it is even heightened moreso.

What say you?

[JimB]

Well, arent you doing the same thing now?  You said you told just a couple of friends of your engagement but not all?  You are keeping your options open?  Isnt that what she did?  I am not saying what she did was right, but you are gone.  She is there alone.  I dont know how old she is, but I would guess she is fairly young.  All she did was tell one guy that she did not have a boyfriend.  You have done the same thing.  Of course I would be careful now.  but, she has "cried her eyes out " for you. I would give her one more chance, but not be sending her any money.  That is just my opinion.  

Jim & Gina

[jeffm]

Jim

BUT I no longer stayed in contact with them, and I never said to one of them that I didn't have a girlfriend, and as far as keeping her options open she kept her apartment and gave the excuse (but could be legitimate) that her brother's family was going to move in (Wuming) and take  over the rent payments.  I saw that as covering herself and could understand it.  If I was her I would have done the same thing.  In addition there was a situation where she was supposed to cancel her Chnlove membership and lied about calling them the first time.  She called a second time (which was truly the first) they wanted her to come in to the office to do it.  I went with her and sat in the bosses office along with her translator, that is when I found out she lied about calling the first time.  During the meeting by the bosses encouragement (because he thought I might not stick with it, which was crap because he only cared about the EMF money she was bringing in to that office, and she made them good money by her profile pics) she wanted to keep her membership active, of which time I walked out of the meeting, and on my way back to the hotel called her at the office and told her to come get her suitcase out of my hotel room.  She quickly called back and said she would cancel the membership.  I let that one go, as I don't have much patience for games and lack of sincerity as I saw it.  So now it brings us to this issue, so this isn't the first flag that I saw.  I might add that her English classes are on Saturday and Sunday.  Each week she has gone back to Wuming and stayed the entire week, so getting the apartment (so far) has been a waste of time.  Wuming is a  40 minute bus ride from Nanning.  I told her that if she wanted to commute from Wuming to school every week then she should have said so.  I would not have rented the apartment.  When she goes back to Wuming she is spending the majority of her time with her friends, so it isn't just to be close to family.  Jim you wondered about her age, she is 30 years old.  She does have a few friends in Nanning, but what is she going to do when she moves to America?  She can't just hop on a bus to see her friends.  

Yes she cried her eyes out, but not all tears are real.  Women are experts at this.  My ex last year did the same thing, but it was a lie while she was two-timing me.  I guess cutting the money off with the excuse that she isn't living in Nanning IMO, so she doesn't need the money.  She will most likely go back to her old job if I do that.  Her boss is a very good friend, and she spends a lot of time at her place, so I always knew she would be able to get her old job back.  

Jim I have been doing the right thing in this relationship, because I didn't want to screw it up.  I have not talked to anyone, except within the past couple of days.  I was serious when I gave her the ring.  It was a matter of time when I told the others that I had someone, if I ever would have contacted them again.  The ones that contacted me first are the ones I told.  When I was with her she voluntarily deleted the men off of her QQ for me.  She did that on her own, and I thought it was a huge gesture of sincerity.  When we were talking that night about her screw up she again said to me that she will take any men off of her QQ except her brother and cousin.  Now that makes a second time she was supposed to do this.  Just giving you more information on this that I didn't mention before.

[Chet Sams]

I honestly wouldnt know which direction to go. With her saying she was deleting and going to the agency the first time. Debating if that tech might have been a communication flaw to some extent. It has happened before. But the ordeal with the english classes. I would be asking one of the teachers if possible if she has actually went there. If not. I pull the plug too. One rule i can not stand at all. Lie, cheat or steal from me. I discuss this as one of the first things in a convo. I think i even have it in one of my profiles as well. Irritates me to nooo end. Had to pay dearly in the past. Almost out of the hole from it.

When she comes to america. She will have ya house and money. hehehehe just messing. But it would be difficult if she wasnt taking the lessons now would it.

Tears dont mean a thing sometimes. My first try in china was a rough secret. She shed after the fact. I got irked. And that was the end of that. She to this day still tries to be a friend. She lied to me and that was that.

If you really think you still have somewhat trust for her. Clear the air now and make sure it is clear. If not. Its gonna be a long ride ahead of ya.

To some extent i was in the same boat. Seems to be a going trend for me as of late. But in all of this. You need to take some time to think things out and see where ya thoughts run to.

[jeffm]

Yes I am trying to clear the air and  give her as much rope as I can.

We did have a problem in communicating a little about the membership. Semantics really.  She used the word/phrase "taking or hiding her profile" as opposed to "cancelling the membership" was my stance.  She looked at it as the same thing. I didn't and made it perfectly clear and then with the help of one of the translators to further make it clear.  

She has been giving me updates on who her teachers are and how many in her class and what they are teaching her thus far, so I believe she is attending classes, but it wouldn't hurt to verify I guess.

[JimB]

Well, with this new information, it seems maybe she has been playing games.  Now I guess it boils down to how you feel about her.  If you love her and want to make it work, have an honest talk.  I would cut off any money and see what happens.  If she still wants you then you have your answer. If not, you still have your answer.  I would tell her that you have these concerns and until she can show you that it is you she wants and not just the money there is no money.  I have said this before.  There are a lot of women in China that want a western husband.  Most of them are true.  but if you lure them with money, that is what they expect.  But let me say this also. Money is built into their culture.  if you expect to go there you have to understand that.

[jeffm]

Thanks Scott.

One of those friends now was a girl from GZ that I  went to meet  in August from CLL.  She was with me in my hotel room and I had to go  downstairs to  the front desk  for something.  When I came back she was on my laptop with MSN open and video on of this guy from Louisiana she was talking to.  I think he was surprised to  see me and she terminated the link.  I was shocked LOL.  I told her I can't believe she had the nerve to do something like that.  The thing is she didn't realize how rude that was,  or she was trying to make me jealous.  I finished out my time with her and had my fun, but I never again considered her for a serious relationship.  We did stay friends however.  

Well you are the first so far who thinks I should cut and run.  I am holding out hope that this will still work for us.Jim,

Yes we have had a couple of talks and they were productive.  She ended up admitting she was wrong about both the QQ incident and the canceling the membership issue.  it almost seems I am teaching her basic etiquette.  Like I said I am giving her some rope and am waiting to see what she does with it.

When we had the QQ incident and I was on my way of dumping her she saw I didn't believe her love for me she was willing to go back to her job and move back to Wuming, but that is talk.  If I cut off the money and don't send any at the end of this month then her reaction would be telling.  I have a little time to think  about that, but you are right without the money she will show her hand either way.Let me pose this question.

Since I am waivering a bit now about if she just wants a visa.  If I went over and married her in China she would be of record having been married in China.  If we divorce then it is kind of a notch on her Chinese file.  It makes it a bit harder and limts her ability to remarry in China, because of the culture reactions to it. In other words she is less marketable.  I thought about this angle  in how I was going to react to all of this.

[Willy The Londoner]

I started this three times now and stopped but in the end I thought no, F...it,  this is what I intended to say so say it I will.

For a start her contract is not with Chnlove it is with some local agency and from what I have seen of contracts they are likely to insist that she sticks with it until it expires.  They know she is with you and they are hoping she will be bringing them in a nice success fee.

But even if they do not get a fee they still keep photos on the websites as they can bring them in money without the women even knowing about them.   They do not let good payers off liightly.

But apart from that I detect that there is some impatience within you. You walked out of the agency office and called her to get her case out of the hotel room.  Had you really uderstood everything that was said at that meeting?  Unless you speak the language fliuently I guess not.

 You met her last month got her to move in with you for three weeks, got her to quit her job all within 6 weeks or so!  

You are putting her to these tests with the help of others.  You get impatient when you are not hearing what you want to hear.

Do you really think that a Chinese woman is going to open up on a first contact with some one on QQ?  But as you did not hear the answer you wanted you cut your friends chat with her if you had not you may have found that she opened up and talked about you later but your mind was set at that put as you sat fuming in whatever city you are at.

Is it not you that is insecure with this relationship?  After 6 weeks or so do you really expect her to give up everything for a person who shows her another side of his character.

 Maybe caused by the fact that she is just about 20 years younger than you is a major cause of this.  I think you just wanted to roll her into a relationship with you as soon as possible because of your insecurity with the age gap.  I know I have been through that myself in the past.

This is a major problem with older men marrying forming relationships with younger women, the jealousy creeps in - was the bus really late getting her home.  Was she really on the phone to her mother in the future these things will come to your mind.  Things will get worse because you evidently do not believe what she says to you now, whether it is the truth of not.

Having pretty young girls is great - I have been there and done it and I am older than you - but in the end I realised that in ten years time people would be thinking she were out with her father, (grandfather in some cases) and that would not suit me one bit.  So I found a wife more akin to my age.

Does this women speak fluent English?  If not how can she be semantic about the words she uses?  

I see jealously, impatience and a bit of temper here and maybe there will be a bit of 'i'll get even' at a later date.  Just my opinion after reading this thread and others.

I suggest that you give her a break and let her go and you find someone of an age that you will be more comfortable and relaxed with.

Willy

[Whitie]

Hi Jeff,

I can only offer you one piece of free advice that I learned through the "school of hard knocks", and this applies to many new situations.

Always trust your first feelings, because when it doesn't feel right in the beginning, you will have nobody else to blame but yourself if you allow it to happen again. If you look back at almost any failed situation, you can look back and see the signs "you didn't read', well. Leopards and their spots applies rule.

Use the 'big head', as the other one is usually "out to lunch"

Whitie

[jeffm]

I started this three times now and stopped but in the end I thought no, F...it,  this is what I intended to say so say it I will.

For a start her contract is not with Chnlove it is with some local agency and from what I have seen of contracts they are likely to insist that she sticks with it until it expires.  They know she is with you and they are hoping she will be bringing them in a nice success fee.

But even if they do not get a fee they still keep photos on the websites as they can bring them in money without the women even knowing about them.   They do not let good payers off liightly.

But apart from that I detect that there is some impatience within you. You walked out of the agency office and called her to get her case out of the hotel room.  Had you really uderstood everything that was said at that meeting?  Unless you speak the language fliuently I guess not.

 You met her last month got her to move in with you for three weeks, got her to quit her job all within 6 weeks or so!  

You are putting her to these tests with the help of others.  You get impatient when you are not hearing what you want to hear.

Do you really think that a Chinese woman is going to open up on a first contact with some one on QQ?  But as you did not hear the answer you wanted you cut your friends chat with her if you had not you may have found that she opened up and talked about you later but your mind was set at that put as you sat fuming in whatever city you are at.

Is it not you that is insecure with this relationship?  After 6 weeks or so do you really expect her to give up everything for a person who shows her another side of his character.

 Maybe caused by the fact that she is just about 20 years younger than you is a major cause of this.  I think you just wanted to roll her into a relationship with you as soon as possible because of your insecurity with the age gap.  I know I have been through that myself in the past.

This is a major problem with older men marrying forming relationships with younger women, the jealousy creeps in - was the bus really late getting her home.  Was she really on the phone to her mother in the future these things will come to your mind.  Things will get worse because you evidently do not believe what she says to you now, whether it is the truth of not.

Having pretty young girls is great - I have been there and done it and I am older than you - but in the end I realised that in ten years time people would be thinking she were out with her father, (grandfather in some cases) and that would not suit me one bit.  So I found a wife more akin to my age.

Does this women speak fluent English?  If not how can she be semantic about the words she uses?  

I see jealously, impatience and a bit of temper here and maybe there will be a bit of 'i'll get even' at a later date.  Just my opinion after reading this thread and others.

I suggest that you give her a break and let her go and you find someone of an age that you will be more comfortable and relaxed with.

Willy

I will address each one of your points directly since I am closest to the situation.

I know her contract is with the agency, so it is simply a matter of semantics.  I know they are hoping to get a success fee, but the way the owner was putting me down by not even knowing me then that success fee is still in serious question.  Oh by the way SHE NEVER SIGNED A CONTRACT WITH THEM. GINA TOLD ME THAT AND THEY COULDN'T FIND ONE, BECAUSE I CONFRONTED THEM WITH THAT AND THREATENED TO GET AN ATTORNEY AND LET CHNLOVE KNOW WHAT MY INTENTIONS WERE IN TAKING THIS ISSUE LEGAL WITH THEM. THEY DID NOT HAVE A BINDING CONTRACT WITH HER.

They cannot keep her photos on the website. See above.  I've been checking and unless they are able to block my ID then she is off of there and Chnlove personally assured me of that in an email.

If you read my post more closely then you would have seen that Gina's translator was present and giving me a blow by blow what was being said iin the room, so I did understand EVERYTHING that was being said including him telling her he was concerned for her that I would not keep my word to her.  Please he could care less about her personally.  He wanted her to keep her profile active for the very reason you even stated.

I did all that in less then 6 weeks and to be exact I did it in under 3 weeks.  Fact.

I can't argue with that. I wished I did hold out for the conversation go longer, but words mean things to me. It is black and white.  I was not some boyfriend. I WAS HER FIANCE. BIG DIFFERENCE. If one is excited about that then one would think she would let another know, especially a man who is acting interested.  

Insecure?  By your morals I should still be seeing the other women I was  talking and going out with.  Ah yeah with her receiving a ring from me and BOTH of our promises to each other then yes I do expect to give up any ties she might have had with others.  And what do you mean about showing the other side of my character? Pray tell?

The age gap and me hurrying this relationship is a wrong assumption by you.  She was just as anxious if not more than I.  This is one area where we both felt equally.  She is the one hurrying the visa process.  I even thought it was a good idea to have her come over on a work, visitor, or student visa so she could see if she liked it here and was sure about us.  She didn't want to waste time by having to  go back to China and then file the K visa, so let me set that straight.

This older men theory that you speak of doesn't apply to me.  If anything she was worried I was a playboy by seeing the women on my QQ and MSN.  I have walk away power and know there are A LOT of women in China.  But if I am giving up my ties I sure as hell EXPECT it in return.  If it is a game by her then I can play that game with her, but she will not be marrying material to me.  I don't give out rings to everyone I meet.  She is the first and I was in a serious relationship last year with someone younger than her.

Good you choose who you want to be with and I'll choose mine.  I am fit and look younger than my age, so I know I can hang with a younger one by 18 years.  

No she doesn't speak Fluent English.  Did I say that I talk to her with upper level English? No I didn't.

Jealousy - no    Impatience - yes    A bit of a temper - a little but only a little to be fair and objective.

Thanks for your suggestion.  Give her a break?  I will say this.  We will agree to disagree.

Jeff

[jeffm]

What is your problem?  

And I will say that you don't want to listen to facts by the person who is living it.   I think you want to believe what you want to believe.

[jeffm]

Hi Jeff,

I can only offer you one piece of free advice that I learned through the "school of hard knocks", and this applies to many new situations.

Always trust your first feelings, because when it doesn't feel right in the beginning, you will have nobody else to blame but yourself if you allow it to happen again. If you look back at almost any failed situation, you can look back and see the signs "you didn't read', well. Leopards and their spots applies rule.

Use the 'big head', as the other one is usually "out to lunch"

Whitie

Whitie I hear you and subscribe to the same thinking  lol, but  I hope you are wrong, as I am hopeful this will play out to the positive.

You asked for feed back.  You got mine.  You do not like what you read..  So you could have just let it go and that would have shown that my feedback did not warrant an answer.

But no, you had to show us what you probably show in person.   Attitude!  Quick tempered!

Willy

If you look at my history on this board you will see I don't get into pissing matches.

I am passionate about this issue and will defend myself on this one, because I know how I approached all of this.  I don't appreciate someone acting like they know me and make comments out of wild thoughts.

[jeffm]

I hear what you say Martin and you know that I do not get into such open conflicts.

But last words on this subject are for Jeffm are.  There are 350 odd members on here who do not know you?  Then why ask for their opinions if you only want to hear the ones that support your point of view.

Willy.

I  don't want to hear from those who just want to support me.  I am not looking to end my relationship with her, but save it with her.  But I don't appreciate opinions by those that attack my character when they don't know me as a person.  I want objective opinions, but yours are subjective. That's the problem I have wth you.

Marin this thread was going fine with everyone else.  I do need the advice of the guys here.  I hope you keep the thread alive.

[Martin]

Sorry guys.  24 hour rule.  Take it to PM, or drop it completely.  I will re-open this thread later...maybe after 24 hours.
_________________________________________________________________
Thread re-opened.

[jeffm]

Thank you for keeping it open, but now I have to go to bed.  That wore me out.