I have a situation that I need feedback from you guys

[Willy The Londoner]

In the interest of this forum I removed my succeeding posts to let things cool off a bit as requested. Even though I have received an offensive PM.  

However I see they are still shown as they have been quoted in full.

Willy

[jeffm]

Bump for some feedback. Thanks

[odysseus007]

I see the main issue here is that you both seem to have different standards of conduct, and some of it may be due to "keeping options open". If you are supporting her financially I think you will probably have the upper hand in making her adjust her standards of conduct. Almost like Pavlovian conditioning. The question here seems to be, "Until you both get married, should you both have the option of playing the field?" If you can clarify with her, and make sure you both stick to it, I think that solves much of the problem.

[jeffm]

007 thanks for your input.  To me there clearly is a right and a wrong in the world  on the most basic issues.  This is one of them to me.  Clearly if you are engaged then you are not communicating to anyone that you are single.  Pavlovian conditioning? Good one.  I haven't looked at it that way, but aren't we all guilty/practicing the same thing?  For example these days what man on earth would not have a prenuptial agreement?  I think most men would cover themselves given the domestic court environment these days.  For some in China it appears that standard of conduct involves lying and deceiving.  I am hoping that is not my case, and if it is I will cut and run in a New York minute lol.

007 I might add regarding "keeping options open"  is that last year I played it by the book and cut all ties, so I was left with just her.  Well after getting burned by being two-timed I vowed never again until I am 100% sure my woman is sincere.  Given the early flag and then the  follow-up big flag my decision turned to be a wise one so far.  I  would encourage anyone not to put all your eggs in one basket unless you are 100% sure your woman is loyal and committed to you, and I don't mean telling you she is, but showing you she is.

[odysseus007]

007 thanks for your input.  To me there clearly is a right and a wrong in the world  on the most basic issues.  This is one of them to me.  Clearly if you are engaged then you are not communicating to anyone that you are single.  Pavlovian conditioning? Good one.  I haven't looked at it that way, but aren't we all guilty/practicing the same thing?  For example these days what man on earth would not have a prenuptial agreement?  I think most men would cover themselves given the domestic court environment these days.  For some in China it appears that standard of conduct involves lying and deceiving.  I am hoping that is not my case, and if it is I will cut and run in a New York minute lol.

007 I might add regarding "keeping options open"  is that last year I played it by the book and cut all ties, so I was left with just her.  Well after getting burned by being two-timed I vowed never again until I am 100% sure my woman is sincere.  Given the early flag and then the  follow-up big flag my decision turned to be a wise one so far.  I  would encourage anyone not to put all your eggs in one basket unless you are 100% sure your woman is loyal and committed to you, and I don't mean telling you she is, but showing you she is.

Can understand where you're coming from. It may surprise you that here in the supposedly enlightened Singapore where I live, prenups are invalid in the eyes of the law. Once you marry she theoretically owns half of yours. Scary huh?

Look at it her way. Guy asks her does she have a boyfriend. She says no. Technically she is right. She has a fiance, not a boyfriend. She didn't exactly say she was single. She has not slept with the guy or whatnot. Well, maybe she might arguably have lied to him. But she didn't lie to you in that instance. I would have waited to see if she flirted with him before confronting her. She might even say that you set her up in a honeypot trap, a bit like reading her private communications. If I were you, I would have gotten more concrete evidence before confronting her. After all, the guy might just be a backup or useful friend to her.

Of course I have not addressed the other issue of closing the profile. It is just an example of how she might see it in her head (and she only has 1 head).

[jeffm]

OMG!!! No prenups in Singapore? It's like saying rape is legal.

Yeah but that is a play on words.  When a guy asks if you have a boyfriend it is  implied  that he is showing interest.  By saying no boyfriend is implying she is single, and she did lie to me repeatedly until I showed her the proof then tried explaining it away for awhile and when she saw that wasn't getting her anywhere then she finally admitted she was wrong.  It makes her word suspect  to me now.  It makes me think what other things are lies that I don't know about.  You are right my one mistake was not allowing the conversation to play out longer to see if she would  have turned it around and let it be known she was engaged.  

The guy might be a backup? LOL.  Like reading her  private communications?  Regarding  closing her profile and  her reasoning?  So is this what married life with her will be like? No thank you.  If this is normal for all Chinese women then I will never marry one.  I can't believe this is normal for them. In fact I  know it isn't, because some have told  me that what she has done is way unacceptable and is not how they would approach an engagement.  

007 keep your thoughts coming.  I do appreciate it.

[odysseus007]

Don't give up. I personally know many gals there who are absolutely honorable, only I was too much head over heels in love with one gal to take them. Now most of them are hitched. Well, life goes on.

Always test and retest people, don't take things for granted. Better safe than sorry. Now I'm afraid you and her will have to start rebuilding trust from scratch, do you want to rebuild? That is the question.

[jeffm]

Based on the way she took care of me and the affection she  showed me then yes it is worth it to rebuild.  I really would rather not have to get back into the dating pool/scene again.  I mean the lengths she  went to for me was more than I require personally, but if I see that she is back to the past then I am quickly done.  I don't have patience for that.  I have pretty much told her that.  

When I feel Gina is solid in her loyalty to me then the testing will stop.

I know I have been talking about the negatives on this thread, but there are many more positives that she has shown just to be fair to her.

[JimB]

Always test and retest people, don't take things for granted. Better safe than sorry. Now I'm afraid you and her will have to start rebuilding trust from scratch, do you want to rebuild? That is the question.

I am sorry I disagree with that 1000 percent.  If you feel you have to constantly test then you are with the wrong person.   Trust is paramount in a relationship.  I would never think of going behind my Gina's back and test her.  I can understand some mistrust in the beginning, that is sort of normal for what we are doing but when you really fall in love that should go away.  If it doesnt, you shouldnt be married until you do.  I can understand Jeff's questioning her seriousness after what happened but if he feels he has to constantly test her, he will drive a wedge between himself and her.  As he said it will take a while to rebuild that trust but not by constantly testing and retesting her and it will take time.

[jeffm]

Jim I can't put up a legitimate argument in anything you said.  Trust is paramount, and I shouldn't have to do that.  One thing though.  How will I really know if she has cleaned up her QQ?  The answer is I don't unless i either test her again, or flat  out look on her QQ the next time I am with her.  Or I just blindly trust she has done that.  Remember she has told me twice now that she has cleaned up her QQ.

[odysseus007]

Always test and retest people, don't take things for granted. Better safe than sorry. Now I'm afraid you and her will have to start rebuilding trust from scratch, do you want to rebuild? That is the question.

I am sorry I disagree with that 1000 percent.  If you feel you have to constantly test then you are with the wrong person.   Trust is paramount in a relationship.  I would never think of going behind my Gina's back and test her.  I can understand some mistrust in the beginning, that is sort of normal for what we are doing but when you really fall in love that should go away.  If it doesnt, you shouldnt be married until you do.  I can understand Jeff's questioning her seriousness after what happened but if he feels he has to constantly test her, he will drive a wedge between himself and her.  As he said it will take a while to rebuild that trust but not by constantly testing and retesting her and it will take time.

I am not sorry to say that I agree with you 100%. (I don't think 1000% means anything :icon_cheesygrin:) How does the law know we can drive? Test us. after we pass, no need to test anymore, that is unless we crash into a tree like Tiger, or kill somebody on the road. Any diff here? If you're past 40 it is prudent to test for prostate cancer. If you have multiple partners it is prudent to test for HIV (but the people who need it probably won't!)

[jeffm]

Scott,

I am wondering about the maturity aspect as well.  She is 30.  Will she grow out of it, or are they character flaws?  That is the big question I am trying to figure out.  I would hate to marry this person and this is what I would have to live with.  I can be patient on immaturity knowing it is something she will grow out of.  Yes I have noticed Chinese are socially behind us.

Right now after our conversation last night  I am leaning to the end the relationship route.Scott,

[JimB]

Jeff, 24 hour rule.

[jeffm]

I'm hanging in there so  far Jim.

[jeffm]

Jeff,

Jim has good advice.  At some point you will need to end the relationship or make a decision to trust and not "test."  When that time should come, is something you will have to decide.

And as far as her integrity with you goes, I think it may be a question of whether she is immature in those areas and will grow out of them, or she has definite character flaws that won't change.  I forget what age you said she was, but if she's in her 20's still, it really could be immaturity.  From my experience (and I could be wrong), a Chinese person at age 30 is more like a westerner at age 21.  There seems to be a longer development.  And I am not saying this in a derogatory way, just stating the situation as I see it.  I am theorizing it is because they have not been exposed to as much growing up as the west is.  This has some positive aspects to it as well, as teenagers today are exposed in the U.S. to way too much that they are not ready to digest.  

Anyway, my 2 cents for what it's worth...  
Scott

Scott after a couple of days and discussing this issue with my friend who is a translator with that agency, and she does knows Gina enough is that immaturity is playing role in this.  To pinpoint, she is closer I would say to dealing with someone who is around 21  years old.  Now I have  adjust my  approach/thinking.  I've been treating her like someone in their 30's by assuming she should be aware of certain logical issues.  

I  quoted your post, because you did hit what could be the issue, or at least part of it.

007

Perhaps I am being a little too controlling.  I don't want to use the money issue like a club, as it destroys  the whole intent of why I am doing it.  Having said that there is a point at which to cut the money off if some things are not what they should be.  I guess it's a matter of raising the bar of tolerance/patience with her.  Figuring out how much to raise the bar now.

My translator  friend  did hit me just right last night with  a peace of wisdom of tolerance and running to soon from a situation.  In short she said that if I keep  running from every situation that isn't to my liking then I will always be doing this and finding no one.  That statement hit me right between the eyes.  She knows me relatively well to say that to me.  

My decision is to stay in it and let this play out more.