immigrants in a new country

[ttwjr32]

i thought i would start a new topic to discuss the immigration and its effect on the countries that was starting to be
discussed in chinese knots thread.  what do you think was the effect of this in countries around the world with a
particular country USA being built on immigration over the past few hundred years.

[David E]

Maybe the real issue here is not Immigration...but Integration.
I am sure you are all aware that Austrealia...same as many other places, was built on the back of the multitude of migrants from all over the World.
Until fairly recently, Australia had an Immigration Policy that accepted white, anglo-saxons only.
In the last decade, this "whites only" policy has been abandoned and now we have migrants coming here from all over the World.
The contribution that all people have made to the diversity and richness of our now truly multicultural country is wonderful. It has had many benefits...EXCEPT for those migrants who dont want to integrate into our society and dont want to adopt any of the cultural norms of the Australia we all know and love.
I will not single out any racial group, or any group with different views to us, because it will be too easy to label me, and many like me as a racist...which I certainly am not.
I respect any persons beliefs, and traditions and way of life...but when you come here you take a solemn oath to enter fully into the "Australian" way of life. You are guaranteed religious freedom and also the right to your own customs and traditions..WHERE THEY DO NOT CONFLICT WITH OUR LAWS....if they do...you have got to give way...the Laws wont change.
So much internal strife is now being caused by this total unwillingness to accept our Laws..by a minority of Migrants.

I am sure this issue wont go away and will be the cause of many more problems in the future.

[Jimmy]

A country built on Immigration. And now they despise immigrants. Most of these greedy people don't even know how the country was built. All they know is that it is their country now. And they want to keep it all to themselves.  The old folks that came here and sweat blood and tears for this life have been long forgotten now.
The precious constitution oh god what a joke they have made this. And when I say they I am talking about American people. They try and decide what is and isn't constitutional like a bunch of egg heads trying to decode a secret message. It was written by some very smart and passionate regular people.  During a time when the technology and things we have problems with now, These were not even a dream yet. They interpret this constitution the same way they interpret the bible. They make it say what they want, Because for most of these people the truth is much to hard hard to take.
And it is kind of funny that the immigrants that come to this country, Most of them know more about it than the people that already live here. And I mean simple stuff like How many stars and stripes on the flag and what do they represent. More than 80% of Americans will give the wrong answer. Who was the first president of the USA or the name of the national anthem. Most Americans can't tell you. But immigrants wanting to be a citizen they all know.  And yes they must go to school to lean it, it takes a year or two. Americans go to school to learn it over 13 years and still don,t get it.
Immigration the thing that made America a great country is now one of the most difficult countries in the world to go to. 
And unfortunately by trying to keep out bad people that will all eventually get in anyway. They are locking out some very good people, that simply want a better way of life, that would work hard and be just good people.
United States what a joke, If I could have my children with me. I would never go back. But everyone needs to come from someplace, and my family choose USA so I just deal with it.  I do remember when saying proud to be American really meant something.  Now it's like Germany in the 30s and 40s. Being a Nazi was cool if you were another Nazi, but hated by everyone else. 

I think I got a little off the subject sorry about that but I do feel better now.

[Scottish_Rob]

And it is kind of funny that the immigrants that come to this country, Most of them know more about it than the people that already live here. And I mean simple stuff like How many stars and stripes on the flag and what do they represent. More than 80% of Americans will give the wrong answer. Who was the first president of the USA or the name of the national anthem. Most Americans can't tell you. But immigrants wanting to be a citizen they all know.  And yes they must go to school to lean it, it takes a year or two. Americans go to school to learn it over 13 years and still don,t get it.

No Jimmy, I think what you are saying is valid, however, I believe that this soulld be said for the UK also, I'm Scottish, and until recently, when I decided to go back to collage and learn, did I take any notice of Scottish culture and heritage.  I think being born in a certain ccountry, people just take their way of life for granted, I mean 'WHY' should they learn about THEIR country, they LIVE in it !!!..Immigration IS I think or will be the ruination of many other countries, the UK is heading that way at the moment.

What I do believe i, that is people want to migrate to another country, they THEY should have to know certain things, not the drivel like 'Whats the 4th line of God save the queen'. and IF they migrate to whatever country the choose, they SWHOULD be bound by their laws, , the term 'When in Rome' comes to mind.  For example, immigrants are, even now, up in arms in the uk, because they have been told that they must stop wearing the yashmak, Hindu or whoever it is that wears them, say the wearing of it, is their law, nobody should wear the hat with two feathers, you either migrate and live by the rules and regulations of said country, or DON'T migrate...simple as...

Oh and by the way I am not racist either...

[Willy The Londoner]

And it is kind of funny that the immigrants that come to this country, Most of them know more about it than the people that already live here. And I mean simple stuff like How many stars and stripes on the flag and what do they represent. More than 80% of Americans will give the wrong answer. Who was the first president of the USA or the name of the national anthem. Most Americans can't tell you. But immigrants wanting to be a citizen they all know.  And yes they must go to school to lean it, it takes a year or two. Americans go to school to learn it over 13 years and still don,t get it.

No Jimmy, I think what you are saying is valid, however, I believe that this soulld be said for the UK also, I'm Scottish, and until recently, when I decided to go back to collage and learn, did I take any notice of Scottish culture and heritage.  I think being born in a certain ccountry, people just take their way of life for granted, I mean 'WHY' should they learn about THEIR country, they LIVE in it !!!..Immigration IS I think or will be the ruination of many other countries, the UK is heading that way at the moment.


Oh and by the way I am not racist either...

But you are an Immigrant Rob.  To both China and the UK.    But its a sad day when thousands of years of Chinese Ancestry is blighted by one persons Scottish bloood!!!!!!
 
Willy

[Martin]

I am having some difficulty with this thread. Since immigrants who do not want to assimilate with the Canadian culture are the problem...they will ruin what we have here. What If our wives don't want to assimilate?  What If they want to remain Chinese, and only live in our country because of us?  Are they now part of the problem?  Or do we over look them, because they are Chinese, and blame every other immigrant?  Just curious about that.

[ttwjr32]

ok lets clear something up. the purpose of this thread was to discuss the impact and positive points that immigration
has made on each respective country. it wasnt for to slam immigrants as being the root cause of all your countries
problems. and if you think that, that is pretty close minded bacause thats not the issues with any country.

let my give you an example in california many people dont like the mexicans because they come their and do all
the harvesting. they say it takes away jobs from citizens? my comment to them i dont see any citizens wanting
to do this so why would you say this. just a stupid vent on their part.

i started this because a comment was made that the usa has no culture because it is built on immigration.  EXACLTY
that was what built that country and because of all thier different contributions the country was built. and has thrived
and is probably the number 1 country for immigrating from other countries.

as far as people coming to your country and not assimilate into the country whats wrong with that??? should not be a problem
at all. its like me here in China i have assimilated into the country but i also contribute some western influence and have not
turned completely chinese and forgone my heritage. 

so the threads purpose is what have you noticed or liked about the contributions of immigrants to your country.

[Rhonald]

Well for me, Immigration has done wonders. But then I am first generation Canadian as both my parents migrated from Holland in 1956. When they came here the only freebee they got was free English classes every Sunday at the local church. Neither could speak English when they first arrived. My dad made it a priority to learn the language and many stories he has told about the differences between the old country and here. He migrated to Canada to get away from his father but only 6 months later my grandfather arrived with the rest of 6 siblings.

But I would disagree big time with Wily about the USA and Canada not having culture. Oh sure it is not as polished as the old world but the pioneer spirit has a culture of its own. Also the confrontation between the natives, the new immigrants and old world culture has provided a kaleidoscope of culture, cuisine, folklore and attitude. I can honestly say that I feel part American, part English, part Dutch, which combined make me Canadian. But even in Canada I have felt and seen the difference between the Maritimes and B.C. compared to the prairies.

[Paul Todd]

I'm an old multiculturalist at heart,but I don't believe it has to be that or  integration/assimilation. I think the two can work hand in hand.
The value of multiculturalism is that it recognises that while we are all different our differences are only superficial. Our differences are confined to the language we speak at home, the religion we practice and the food we eat. But fundamentally, as humans, we have much in common. But we will never find out what those similarities are if we live in fear and ignorance of each other. The more we mix with people from culturally diverse backgrounds, the more we understand about each other and the more we recognise just how much we have in common. I welcome multiculturalism as a means whereby immigrants can retain their cultural diversity if they choose and simultaneously be good citizens of their new country. Psychological integration if you like without resort to the bad old policies of cultural assimilation.Yes, it is possible to have two cultures and it may actually be better for society.  Asking someone ,especially a young person to assimilate means asking them to give up who they are. This makes no sense if you think about it. Why not value both cultures? The world after all is a small place. If we can work out the problems and tensions between different sections of our own societies the surely it's a good sign for the future.
I do draw the line at education though. The idea of faith based schools seems to me to be heading in the wrong direction. I think it's only through children going to school together that positive multiculturalism and integration can occur.
I'm now an immigrant in China.  Will I ever be assimilated into Chinese society? Not a chance! I will always be a "Gwilo" in their eyes. I can however live here happily with the idea of multiculturalism. I respect the Chinese and their way of life and beliefs as they hopefully respect mine. We both gain incites into each others worlds and with any luck become better people because of it. Why does it have to be integration ? Why not just celebrate the differences and grow as a society, to insist on conformity will surly result in a much duller world.

[Scottish_Rob]

Paul thats exactly what I was trying to say, every country  needes multiculturalism to survive I think...

[David E]

To both Paul and Ted...
You both have in effect "migrated" to a new Country...good for you
You both reperesent a somewhat alien and very tiny representative group within your new Country. You will never be completely integrated as Chinese people...you wouldn't want that anyway. You preserve intact you history and your heritage whilst adopting many of the cultural norms within China.
Thats what real immigration is about...you take many good things from your new Country, and in turn you add many good things from your own background.

What you dont try to do is to force the Chinese to modify their world to suit your view of it, by agitating to get Laws changed to formally recognise your differences and to make it an offence for native Chinese NOT to recognise your unique cultural history and background......from what I know of the Chinese Political Machine...you would't have a chance in hell of achieving this anyway.
I cant think of any country that has not derived immense benefit from Immigration..with new blood, with different ideas, foods, festivals and all that sort of stuff. And for any migrant who wants to preserve their own particular culture, that is fine by me and should be encouraged, provided everybody is pulling on the same end of the rope to help the country to grow and prosper

I just ask you both to imagine what would happen if you insisted that the Chinese in general were forced by Law to modify their own way of life to suit you....that is not assimilationn, or immigration or integration...it is anarchy.

And Ted, you are wrong...per capita, Australia has the biggest migrant intake in the World.  These are legal migrants who come through our (sometimes woefully slow and ponderous) Government system. The problems we begin to see stem mainly from those who came here illegally. And nobody here wants illegal immigration to continue...even the Politicians.

[Willy The Londoner]

Paul thats exactly what I was trying to say, every country  needes multiculturalism to survive I think...
[/quote
No Rob Wrong - Every country need law abiding hard working people to survive. es coming for easy pickings.   I REALLY THINK THAT THIS THREAD WAS A BAD IDEA.  I cannot write what I have seen happen over the past 60 odd years in London otherwise I will be accused of being a neo racist.

David E your right.

Willy

[shaun]

I'd like to throw in 4 cents here.  First Paul, having been a part of faith based schools and home schools I can honestly tell you that the reason they have been created is not to separate the cultures.  The two schools I have a little to do with now are more multicultural than our public school systems.

The main purpose behind most faith based schools lies in a few areas concerning what they children will be taught and how.  One area is creationism vs evolutionism.  I use the ism on purpose.  Some, I say some because I do not know about all, teach it with more balance in mind.  They will at least teach the principals of evolutional theory.  And of course faith based people believe in creationism.

But the main difference and reason for faith based school is in concern in teaching about sex.  Most faith based people do not like the schools forcing the students to learn and accept their beliefs.  I do not necessarily believe the faith based systems have the correct approach in that area either.  So as a parent of 3 children I took the responsibility and taught them myself.

Now I know most of what I am talking about here has me treading on thin ice.  But I thought since I have been a part of faith based schooling that I might be able to shed some light on the subject.  We have one school in our area that is one of the largest faith based  schools in the country.  They are more intergrated than our communities here and we are pretty integrated here in our communities.  You would be surprised in the deep south you can have a white family, black family, Asian family,  Hispanic family, Indian family, and a Arabic family all living on the same street in the same community.  You will also find communities where they are predominately one ethnic group.

I have already ventured into this subject but the second point I would like to address is integration in America.  America has two segments of people right now that do not want to integrate with the rest of American society.  That is their choice.  The reason most Americans are concerned about this is that one segment of people are pushing to change American law to reflect their religious beliefs.  Since we have a spineless government over the last 40 years that is trying to destroy the heritage and uniqueness of our country, many people are upset.  The other segment send most of their money to their home country and do most of their business on a cash basis. There are many Americans who want to put and end to these people avoiding taxes and have them pay their fair share.

I think it is wonderful when society allows other cultures to express their own heritage and share the best ideas.  Ii is funny because I will ask Peggy a question about her upcoming holiday and she will ask me what I know about it.  I'll tell her and she is surprised that I know as much as I do.  But I always ask her to tell me more about it.  I do it for 2 reasons.  1. is so that I will understand better.  2.  so that she will be more willing to accept and understand American culture a little more.

If I stepped on anyones toes about the the faith based school let me apologize now because I only offer it as information.  You can accept or disregard.  There is no offence intended.

[Paul Todd]

No offence taken Shaun,

It's a good to have different opinions here that are based on experience and not prejudice. In France they have secular education system and it didn' t stop the riots their, so it's not the answer to every thing just my own thoughts about stuff. Maybe it's coming from a society in the UK that is still class ridden that make me believe in equal opportunities in education for all.
Stigmatized by oppressive laws and facing severe persecution, many Huguenots fled France. In 1681, Charles II of England offered sanctuary to the Huguenots, and from 1670 to 1710, between 40,000 and 50,000 Huguenots from all walks of life sought refuge in England. Historians estimate around half of these moved to London. Willy, I can just see you sitting there way back then saying " It's not like it used to be since those Huguenots move in round here! I could tell you a thing or two" in a monty pythonesque sort of way.
David I understand what your saying but what I don't understand is why the UK government and lots of others like it think the answer to our every trouble is to make a new law or make a new tax. I expect the Chinese would just tell them to go away and stop being stupid. Come to think of it though, China does have some strict laws to protect ethnic minorities if only in principal.

[Willy The Londoner]

No offence taken Shaun,


Stigmatized by oppressive laws and facing severe persecution, many Huguenots fled France. In 1681, Charles II of England offered sanctuary to the Huguenots, and from 1670 to 1710, between 40,000 and 50,000 Huguenots from all walks of life sought refuge in England. Historians estimate around half of these moved to London. Willy, I can just see you sitting there way back then saying " It's not like it used to be since those Huguenots move in round here! I could tell you a thing or two" in a monty pythonesque sort of way.

But then for three hundred years the UK stayed much the same. UNTIL  the flood gates were open after second world war.  Which is unlikely to happen in China. There could of course be a REVERSE Policy after the next census when they realise just how how many immigrants there are here.!  Repatriation to your native lands. 

Willy.