my love story

[David E]

As one of the "hawks" here on this specific issue of John's dilemma, I still reserve the right to disagree with the "doves" who advocate abdication of the problem in a short term "reconciliation.

Unless and until, the core issue has been exposed, discussed, compromised and agreed, the act of abdication has simply put a band aid on the problem, it has done nothing to identify or resolve the issue.

There will be a "next" time for all this, I am certain.

Wrap it all up in platitudes if you will, push it all under the table if you will...but nothing is fixed.

Whatever the acknowleged differences between the two cultures, one thing remains common to both and that is the absolute need for a couple of any particular set of cultures to have and demonstrate a level of mutual respect.

I have met this hurdle in my own relationship several times in the past and I know (in my experience) that a firm (not brutal) hand is required to establish and reinforce the husband and wife model.

My wife is not ever going to get away with emotional tantrums and/or blackmail...I dont care whether she is Chinese or Martian...it aint gonna fly within a partnership...cultural differences often get used as the easy option to avoid doing something.......

By all means obey the 24 hr rule, by all means make allowances for all the negative feelings that a woman newly seperated from her traditional home, family and culture will have, by all means be prepared to be flexible and generous with your dealings with this issue.........but that dont mean losing your own perspective or losing the right to have some respect reciprocated by your partner.

There is just as much cultural clash for a Man bringing a Woman from a different World into his life as there is for the Woman leaving her previous life to achieve this.

Marriage to anyone is NOT a zero sum game...if the strategy seeks winners and losers....everybody loses.

Lastly, I dont find your comments helpful here Willy.....others here HAVE faced these specific issues, and we are trying to give John a range of options for HIM to eventually decide what strategy to employ to fix the issues once and for all....but nobody suggests that he is the first, or will be the last to have to deal with such "stuff"

One clear and over-riding consideration is extremely relevant in these circumstances....whatever anybody decides as a resolution model, it is very difficult to proceed to a MUTUALLY acceptable situation where one partner is convinced that the other is cheating...whether this is by accidentally taking a credit card, being accused of stashing away secret money, having an extra-marital affair......or whatever.

The basic premise is that she appears not to trust John or his motives and for my money, THAT is the real problem. You have some genuine problems moving on from that issue.

The first time Ming suggests that my motives and actions represent my perceived need to cheat her, is a signal that we are in real trouble. For her to even think that way would for me be the death of our relationship. Melodramatic...yes, realistic...absolutely. We have discussed this together IN DEPTH and she well knows my attitude on this.

So, Willy, you cant abdicate advice about this to a snide reference to"other peoples" ability to face it and deal with it if and when the time comes.

John shared his problems with us, we are trying to help him in whatever way each of us individually we can.

The taking of advice and tha acting upon it is not mandatory. The giving of it IS in a Forum such as ours.

Just my 2 cents worth !!!!

[Willy The Londoner]

A SOLUTION: A Chinese/American WOMAN counselor. Maybe then the issues on both sides will come to light?

Why American. John is in Australia?

Yes point taken David E. Maybe my giving advice on the marital situations such as this is not something I should give as all I have is 70 odd years of experience of married life from afar.  Never having gone through even one before now, let alone the 2, 3, 4 and even more times that some members have.  However in those years I have seen many marriages end and some of those have been for stupid almost pathetic reasons.  My only thoughts are you have to work on a marriage, not to become a dictator.

My line of answers was, as in the past is not to hide the issue away or put it off, it was simply to wait and see if we can ascertain what the core problem is.

My own opinion is that there is insecurity on both sides here caused by what has gone ahead between them.  Him fearing that he will lose a beautiful wife who he loves I suspect is high on his mind and her fearing that he will find another women due to his previous escapades in chatting to others and 'mistakenly' taking away her card etc.

There was nothing snide in my remark. I do not wish it on anyone but if something similar ever happens to those with the 'do it my way or not at all attitude' then I, and possibly others, would be interested to see whether they follow their own advice or not or is their advice purely given in the safety of distance from the event in a man's man way!.  Most members of this forum have been married more than once before. Often the wife has as well, that in itself can cause insecurity on both sides.

Everyone seems to have a preconceived opinion as to HER reasons for this to have occurred.  Not one has looked at the reasons he may have given her.  There are two sides to everything.

Willy

[fivetrout]

Well, you get the jest...intervention from a professional.

[fivetrout]

And John E is absolutely correct! These are all symptoms of a serious underlying problem. Hoping things will improve, or having it go bad one day and then good another is any sort of a solution. John has given away all the power to her, and now she can play him anyway she chooses. Mutual respect is not a two way street here, and so he need to define to himself...where to draw the line.

[john1964]

Guys, I have read everyone's response to my latest posts, The reason I have posted here is to receive advice from all of you who have been is similar situations or just have good advice, I am not ready to give up as I love this woman with all my heart, It is true that there are a million+ women in China who would be be a good wife for me and I am sure that there are a million plus for all of us there, MinYing is the one that I chose to go to be with many times, at great expense financially and emotionally, Different culture will play a big piece in the relationship of all of us and communication is the big key, I went in to this a bit blind, did a bit of research of Chinese women on the internet and had a few great Chinese girlfriends here so i thought i was prepared, WRONG.
Today my wife got a Chinese phone card for her phone and sent me a message on QQ, I asked for her number and called her, I thought her response to me was a little cold, no "hello darling or hello lao gong, just hello", I asked if she was unhappy and she told me she was happy then said she was with a friend and she had to go, that was all.
I have decided to give this time to contemplate my future, I will go to China to teach English with or without her, If i dont then I will always have it in the back of my mind wondering if I have made the right choice.
I have 2 weeks here alone to think and communicate with my wife via QQ and phone, It is in my mind that if things do not change then I will cancel her return trip to Australia, not to teach her a lesson but let her think of what she wants out of life and if I am to be a part of it, At this moment i hope I hope she returns and I dont have to put up with emotional blackmail, I know that she has access to this site and reads my posts often but I dont think she has read the latest, Maybe she can see how I am feeling.
One thing is going through my mind now, Is my love affair with my wife only or with China too?, Every time I went there 8 or 9 times, I always insisted that we travel, This time 3 years ago I was on the "great wall", Just met MinYing 3 days earlier and was utterly fascinated with China, The friendliness of the people and the chaos of daily life, I have China in my thoughts every day, Here I just go to work and come home to relax, Not a good life.
Well, I will see how things go over the next few weeks and go from there, I will see how the conversations and attitude go and then make my decision, I hope to see her again , John>
   

[JustJim]

I have been reading this thread with some interest in everyone's opinions.

I have used this forum just as a help to achieve my goals and I have so far avoided giving any opinions to anyone's situation.

My feeling here is that I decided to seek out a woman in China because I wanted a better quality woman.  I didn't go to China because I was "a lesser man..."  I think you all know what I mean.

My point is that no matter what I do I still need to be a "man."  I am sure that means different things to different people but to me it means that I have worked on myself, I have worked on my character, I have sought to improve myself.  Like someone else said here, I see myself as the "prize." 

There are many resources on the internet for forums and advice on how to be a better person, a better man, a better husband.  I think if we don't work at these things we might alienate even the best woman.  Actually, especially the best woman.

Even with cultural differences I think that men and women still respond in similar basic ways.  So, having a Chinese wife does not mean that I can then stop trying to improve myself.  It doesn't mean that I can attach the emotional hose to her and suck all the life out of her.

I am not saying, in any way, that John is doing any of this...   all I am saying is that we all owe it to ourselves to do the work on ourselves that needs to be done.  If we don't we will find ourselves in unhappy relationships. 

[fivetrout]

"" I am not ready to give up as I love this woman with all my heart""

Boy that hit home with me! I remember being at that stage with an alcoholic. The question you need to ask John: Is she deserving of all that love you carry for her, and does she return a similar love back to you? Or do you give more and more of yourself...hoping it will reflect back, but she fails? Some people can't truly allow themselves to be loved, and therefor can't reciprocate.  Does she gravitate towards you normally or push you away... emotionally? These are questions you need to ask. DO NOT become that emotional hose JustJim spoke of. It will take you to places below even HELL itself!

Time spent alone now is probably the best for both now to define who each of you are in the relationship.

[Martin]

One of the problems...a huge problem I had in my marriage, was the language barrier.  I dont know how much this plays into this situation, but it is really difficult on a relationship, when there are issues, and they cant be discussed easily.  Often there are miscommunications, and bad translations.  In my own failed marriage with a Chinese woman, this was one of several issues that I was faced with, that caused a quick breakdown in the relationship. 

I wish you the best of luck, and hope you are able to work your way through things.

[yvictor]

I cannot agree with those who say 'teach her a lesson' and 'you made her a favor to bring her out of China, you can easily find another one if you want to'.
Neither of these help fixing the problem and improving the relationship, on the contrary.
Unless you see your wife as equal, with both benefiting from the relationship, the above approach will just ruin the relationship sooner or later.

[fivetrout]

Odd the way some here are saying to those of us... that preach traditional family roles. And that we are suggesting... "teach her a lesson" "my way or the hwy" " nail her to a cross" and lastly, the last post from Yvictor..."Unless you see your wife as equal". WTF? True we don't understand John role has been in all of this, but he has asked for our opinions and has described her reply's and actions. Most of us here can identify with some of these from past failed relationships and find them totally un-acceptable!

A woman needs to be strong in her role, as well as support the man of the house. He provides leadership and compassion in most situations. She mirrors, and supports him after having discussed things when require both. Mutual respect is a given. The household is supported by the expertise that both carry with their strengths... and usually by gender. The family is a living, breathing, composition created by both!

One or the both aren't participating in creation of a healthy family unit. And by interpretation of Johns own words...it is she.

[David E]

Maybe we should really cut to the chase here on the subject of relationships.

It is too simplistic to see John's (and anybody's) problems as who is the boss, who has most to lose, who is right and who is wrong.

For those of you who have interest in the real issues within relationships I suggest you get hold of Matt Ridley's book "The Origins of Virtue" and in particular, carefully read the chapters on "The Prisoners Dilemma"...here you will see the pathways along which relationships issues tend to develop...and believe me, they really do follow these patterns.

Resolution of most partnership problems requires both parties to draw a line in the sand and re-state the "Game" To continue with any open or hidden issues unresolved simply puts off the next explosion for a little while. Kiss and make it better sounds OK..but as long term relationship building goes it is crap.

I have had a failed marriage...and I passionately dont want another, most of us here have at least one busted marriage, some more than that...and Willy dont have any !!! ...so I decided to get serious and try to understand more about the dynamics of relationships so that I could do my bit to help avoid another failure.

What I did learn along the way (by way of a Degree in Behavioural Psychology) is that somebody has got to Take Charge and be responsible for driving an adapted (one which both can agree upon) change , rather than a coerced (one that is imposed by either) change. If there is no room or will to drive an adapted change for whatever reason, chances of successful recovery are very slim for the long haul.

Often the sheer act of taking charge means that someone has to get tough...not necessarily emotionally brutal, but nevertheless a firm hand is needed.

In the "Prisoners Dilemma", when faced with joint problems, the most often taken way out is for both parties to defect (the marriage fails), because the "pay-off" in this solution is not enough to warrant the more "expensive" Strategy of cooperation in their joint or individual opinion.

I guess of course that every problematic relationship is unique, but in that uniqueness lies a common thread.....

To fix immediate problems (the band-aid solution) is TACTICS....to fix a broken relationship requires a STRATEGY.

[Willy The Londoner]

I cannot agree with those who say 'teach her a lesson' and 'you made her a favor to bring her out of China, you can easily find another one if you want to'.
Neither of these help fixing the problem and improving the relationship, on the contrary.
Unless you see your wife as equal, with both benefiting from the relationship, the above approach will just ruin the relationship sooner or later.

I agree with this comment. 

As Martin says the biggest problem is language.   Each thinking the other understands them when in  fact neither has a clear indication of what the other actual has said or intended to say.

There again some people after a hasty marriage soon realise that they have made a mistake, be it man or woman.  Since being here I have known marriages that have fallen apart within a couple of months when one or both parties have realised that they should have waited a bit longer before taking the plunge with that particular person.  Some marry within days of stepping off the plane - a recipe for disaster.

OK not everyone can be in the position I was in and could be here several months, courting (now that's an old fashion word) my now wife. But apart from doing it that way the more solid marriages are those where the man has made several trips to and from before marrying.

Willy

[fivetrout]

I fully understand that I will be walking a tightrope when Hong meets me at the airport Wednesday. We will have two days before marriage. I have spent two long years getting to know her the best I can. However, she should know me very well as I am the communicator. I have spent a lot of time alone getting to know my own self, and I understand and know what I bring to the table in the way of patience, trust, commitment, compassion, and loyalty. Recently Hong told me "I understand your heart fully" and that's why she has been entirely committed to me too, and wishes to marry. Developing lasting love will take some time and will be only come after tested hardships between us., I know that, and hope she understands that too. I will give her a lot of space for change and growth, but I also know my own limits as to how far I am willing to bend. We both desired real changes in our lives...BRING IT ON!

[Willy The Londoner]

As you say 'Bring It On' I hope it does go well for you.

Face to face is more important than any amount of previous contact.   I came to China in 2009 with all my documents in hand with that same resolve after a long time talking by phone by video and any other possible way. However before the first week ended we both knew that we were not really meant to be, but if we had been married in those first few days then I have no doubt I would have had my first marriage and first divorce by now!

I stayed not just because I liked the place and the ladies but I also knew that I probably could not put up with the enforced absence that most guys go through with the long wait, after marrying, before being together permanently.

Willy

[Martin]

Like Willy says, face to face is more important than any previous contact. I got married one week after arriving in China. We had daily communication by way of Skype, MSN messenger, QQ, and phone. What we didn't have, was the day to day little things. Knowing another person online is different than knowing them in person. I am not trying to dissuade you from getting married right away fivetrout, however, be prepared for some work. I was just like you...I knew my lady well. I got married one week after I arrived. Just be prepared, patient, and ready for some challenges.