If you need advice and help from an in-service chnlove agency translator

[China Shark]

Was wondering the same thing Sarge.
Shark

[hellerjk]

Hey guys.

I followed Proteus' advice regarding asking for the original letter and I received one!  And it was authentic.  I am now able to see the fluff the translator adds (a friend helped me).  The fluff is just basically (in my girl & translators case) merely used to ensure te sentiment behind the words are understood.

I am so happy

[Danny]

Hellerjk

This is really stating the obvious, but for some of the brothers who have never tried to learn a language, it is a really, really difficult thing to translate.

I knew this as a general principle, but now I have been studying Mandarin for a while, I know this from bitter experience *laughs*

Until you really know two languages very well, you don't realise that if you translate literally (word for word) the result is often just absolute rubbish. If you translate for meaning, then you're really guessing about the intention of what was said. This is often an exercise of imagination.

For example, when I wrote the previous paragraph was it my intention to show off, or to be helpful? When my woman writes to me, is is she going through the motions, or are her words sincere. Who is to know!

The fluff might be the heart of the message, or it might be less than nothing.

Ah well, it makes writing that much more interesting, doesn't it now? *laughs*

Danny

[China Shark]

Danny, I have to agree to a point with you. First yes having some knowledge of the langauge helps yet isn't the main component of the equation. In the beginning we all were faced with sifting through the translations because of either bad translators or overly eager to please the client translators. What it boils down to is thinking to yourself would any woman reguardless of her culture being saying these words at this point in communication. Many including myself have be lulled into a sense of security because we wanted the words so bad to be from her heart, all reason and logic leaves the room when affairs of the heart are invloved. We tend to ignore signs that ordinarily would stop us in our tracks. Dillusion is a common human trait known to be used quite frequently by the poverbial underdog. In retrospect we all see how we failed yet were blinded by the obssessive need for it to be real in our hearts. A big part of the blame can be put on us for putting blinders on and not paying attention to the road signs, caution, slow down, stop. It is so easy to put 100% blame on anyone because it releaves our conscience of any wrong doing on our part. To be honest I've been around awhile and was really taken back at how easily some of us are taken in. I was bamboozled a couple of times so I'm not exempt. Every coin has two sides to it. The agency justifies the need to make revenue while the clients actually take backseat because that is the way of the world. This forum has made an impact on Chnlove and the agencies, I've noticed less and less eye candy as of late and seemingly more profiles. If nothing else they have scaled back because of the potentional blowback. Enough digressing, another point I want to make about Chinese culture is that a lot of the average thinking can be assimilated by just being around native Chinese people on a daily basis. I know this is hard for the majority of guys only being able to spend two weeks here or there. But in the 6 months I've been here I've been privy to being around some many different types of people from all walks of life. I lived in one of the worst neighborhoods as well as one of the best in Shenzhen. I've been around gangster types with my friends and found them to be rather pleasant, prostitutes fill the streets yet you never see any problems where they're at. Chinese have an expression it doesn't matter, in America this would be viewed as indifference
or not caring about all, but in China the real translation is we cannot do anything about it so we will not worry about it. They are much more tolerant and peaceful than we could ever hope to be in life. We all take the deceit as trying to screw us over yet in reality it is just about making money nothing more nothing less. Capitalism has hit China like a tidal wave. Making money over here is everyone's number one priority. Thier mindset is to make more money then thier life will be better. Don't get me wrong I think it is aweful yet living here I'm getting a better understanding of the dynamics of Chinese culture. Langauge is the least of your worries about marrying a Chinese woman. My ex and I might have understood each other 15% yet it was never an issue, it was from being from two different social stratas that broke us apart. Just my ramblings and my rant for the day.
China Shark Mike

[JimB]

Thanks Mike, that is one of the best pieces I have read here. It solidifies what I have been told before.

[shaun]

O Proteus, where art thou, I finally have a question for you?

Guy's maybe you can offer me a suggestion.  I have been talking with woman in Changsha since mid-April.  At first the letters were great, she was wooing me and asking questions, joking around, then they changed, there is still some spark there but no questions from her, no wooing, a little joking every now and then. we were communicating 1-2 times a week; now it is just once a week.  I asked for her phone number because it was available.  The answer was no because she cannot speak English.  OK, understandable.

At first she kept on asking me when I would come to China.  She asked if I could come this summer since I have 10 weeks off in the summer. I told her not yet but that I want to.  I've just hot too much happening right now to do that.  Plus I am saving for the trip and I will have minor surgery on my hand next week and I will not be able to use it for 3-4 weeks.  I finally tell her that I may be able to come after Christmas.  She tells me that is too long to wait then eventually accepts it.

Later I ask her for a natural picture, one in everyday life.  She tells me she does not have a camera.  Well....... OK.  I keep up with the picture asking and she says she will see if she can borrow one.  I talk via email with her translator.  The translator tells me that yes she does not have a camera but that she will try to help her with it. Then the translator suggests tells that a web cam chat might be good and would begin to talk with my sweetie about it.  A few weeks later a picture appears, her and her 21 year old daughter. Yes the picture was different but still a pretty woman.  She was afraid I might think she was ugly but I tell her she is still very beautiful.

I ask her to consider talking by email.  She has no computer and is computer illiterate so she does not want to go to internet cafe.  She is also afraid of expense.  She told me at the beginning that she owns a restaurant and that a lot of people come there even a few local celebrities.  She says it consumes a lot of her time.  I understand that I own a business too.  Could she really be that bad off financially?

So, I asked my sweetie in the last EMF about a web cam visit.  She says she is too busy with her restaurant maybe we can try later.  I have sent 2 emails to her translator asking her if she knew what issues there might be. Sent the first 3 days ago; no response.  Sent the 2nd was 10 hours ago.  It may be too soon to receive a response from that one.

This is P218 which everyone here thinks is a good agency.  Anyone got any ideas?

[China Shark]

Shaun I think you are the issue at hand {pardon the unintentional pun}. Seems to me you only want to meet her on your own terms, you are asking but seemingly given nothing back in return. The interest is waning because you are making up reasons why you can't visit instead of reasons why you cannot visit. If you are having surgery on your hand what better opportunity than to spend maybe a month getting to know her. Your mindset is that of a typical westerner, me me, me. A relationship is about mutual feelings not just how you think things should be. You unintentionaliy threw up the gauntlet and telling her there really is no chance for you as a couple. How would you react in her situation. Yes, she might have limited English profiency and be really reluctant to give you more personal information because she is losing faith in the words you say to her. Words are cheap, actions speak the langauge she will understand. In my eyes I can totally sympathize with her plight. You ask for so much yet are willing to do so little. Many of these women have been toyed with by some of these so called men on Chnlove, what is she supposed to think or trust. If you stepped up your game by pushing it to the next level maybe she would start back with the joking and wooing. Stating you can't come till Christmas yet you have 10 weeks vacation this summer is giving her the message that she takes the backseat to everything else in your life. If I was in your shoes I'de get the surgery and as soon as I was recovered {maybe 2 weeks} I'de be on the first plane to get to know her for at least 2-3 week to find out if it is real and do we have a chance. No half stepping here, this is your life and hers why are you procrastinating already. She is only responding back to the way you are approaching her. She sees it as lose lose so why waste her time if you aren't willing to put in the equal amount of effort.
China Shark Mike

[Chong]

Mr. China Shark ... Shaun did write that he's saving up for the trip and because of the hand surgery, what if there are complications ... he needs to stay in the USA during the summer.  We're not as fortuate as you to be able to live in China ... so lay off the personal guilt trip on Shaun. IMHO, their relationship needs to be more solidify before he goes over. They're only writing to each other 1-2 times a week. Right now, there are still some uncertainties. What Shaun is asking from her is not unreasonable. She's asking him to come over, he said during X-mas ... nothing wrong with that. They can continue to build their relationship up to that time. As with all relationships, things start to fizzle a bit after the initial contact hence the lack of wooing, jokes etc etc etc. Just restart them.

Shaun, I'm writing currently to a lady who owns a restaurant in Zhongshan. She also replies 1-2 times a week. She starts at 8 am, has a mid-day break, then she returns for the dinner rush and works until 1 am. Because of the competition and inexpensive prices, it's hard to make a fortune running a restaurant. Plus if you go over, she'll be at work for over 12 hours a day /  7 days a week. I grew up working in the restaurant industry for over 25 years, it's a hard business ... both mentally and physically. Ask her how much time she spends with her kid ... that'll give you an indication of the time available for you.

IMHO ... stay the course with EMFs, webcam if possible and assure her that you'll be there for X-mas.

[Jimmy]

I have not read the whole thread but what I have read it looks to me If the man said he would be there at christmas as long as he is there at christmas he is a man of his word. If he shows up sooner thats just a bonus for the both of them.
I think all of these women no matter when you tell them you can or will be in china to see them, they all want you to come sooner they get anxious and lose some patients. But it's understandable they are excited just as you are.

Stick to your guns be a man of your word and much respect you should receive for that. Dont get PW to quick lol

[China Shark]

Chong it has nothing to do about any type of personal guilt trip. It is my opinion and just as valid as anyone else's on here. Yes, you are a moderator on here yet have no right to dictate to others on how they should feel or speak. Your job is to monitor responses of the posts and not nercessarily interject your personal opinion. I will not get into a sparring match because that is not the point of my response. If you disagree with me that's fine yet don't feel you should try to set me straight, it's not your place.
China Shark Mike

[Chong]

And it's your place to set Shaun straight  Did I delete your post ? .... No

I have my right to state my personal opinion on your post ( just like you did for Shaun's post ) whether I'm a MOD or not. The fact that I'm a MOD has nothing to do with anything.

You're telling the guy to get his act together, what do you call that  Based on his one post, you know his entire story & situation to tell him to come to China sooner than he wants ... and that all he thinks is "me, me, me" and "give nothing back".  If you replied that to me, I would be offended.

[China Shark]

Well, therein lies our dilemma, everyone views things differently including Shaun, the girl, you and I. Each of us has our own perception of reality. That is to say none is wrong or right just not on the same page. If I came across  rude I apologize yet still stand by my words. I've obssessed enough over this thing and saw quite a few come and go by the wayside. If playing devil's advocate was wrong I will be the first person to come forward and admit I was wrong. I was simply viewing things from her perspective to try to figure this thing out. Hell, Chong how many have you been through and how many have I been through so far. Pretty sure you're at number 5 as well as I think I am. So there isn't an exact science to this thing. Yes, I have an advantage over you and also I deal with Chinese people everyday at work and when out with friends. This in itself gives me a better perspective than most westerners. I disagree that the joking and sweet words diminiss after time. I think the letters should be increasing in frequency and further serious talk about relationships should escalate not drop back. This woman is backing off because she feels it's not amounting to much. If anything I learned is you must keep progressing a little more as time passes. If the letters dropped back why is Shaun asking us for advice instead of asking her why. I would be addressing the translator as well as my girl once I started to feel bewildered on what was going on. If I was hard on him it was because I want him to succeed not fail. How many times did a westerner make these promises to her before. In her eyes she just wants some indication that it is possible and that it could happen. When I was sure about my girl I came over two months later like I said to prove I was the same man writing to her. No, you are right I do not know his entire situation yet I can read between the lines and have a pretty good idea of how Chinese women think. Young ones {23-27 yr olds} are generally unsure of what they want in life, {29-36 yr olds} are scrambling like there is no tommorrow to marry to get thier family off thier backs. These women that are over 30 do not have many options at this point in thier life's. One girl I was talking to whom I am very good friends with agreed and half jokingly said yes we should marry right away if it will only take a year to travel abroad with her. Another one from Chnlove asked if I knew anyone who would marry her friend as a means to an end to live in the states. I've been dating girls here and they really want a foreign husband yet they need to be sure he is really serious. If Shaun makes a real effort I'm sure he could turn this thing around in his favor. Pushing her into webcam and direct email or phone number is just not smart. In her time when she feels comfortable she will disclose all the necessary info. Who likes to be pressured reguardless of what's about.
China Shark   Mike

Incidently it is China Shark, Mike, or Michael.   Mr. Shark sounds kind of childish don't you think??  China Mike would even suffice.

[shaun]

Guys,

Keep talking and offering info, I am taking an occasionaly look just to see what the responses are.  I brought  the issue here because I wanted some insight other than my own.  There are not wrong answers at this point.  Don't worry about people hurting my feelings Chong all I need at this point is input.  Many of you are way past my novice experience and that is why I asked the question.

I will respond later once I see what the responses.  Good input so far.

Thanks!!!!!!

[Scottish_Rob]

Shaun, I've been in contact with my lady in Qingdao since Dec 24th.  
(1) I got her phone number, spoke maybe once or twice for about 5 minutes...  
(2) Won't do the web cam because it's against her agency rules, well she said she would be 'breaking her contract'....  
(3) Doesn't want to go to 'internet cafe', said it can be frightening.....
(4) have her email address we send email now and again, not long letters....
(5) have her Yahoo address but she never on it, have sent maybe one or two IM's to each other...
(6) Some Letters shorter
(7) I have asked her for agency translator for over the phone so I could call the agency and speak to her that way

The point I am trying to make is;  These may be HER real Reasons
#1.....Not good English
#2.... Don't want to get into trouble with the agency
#3.... Don't want to get into 'Frightening situations
#4....Still need translators help
#5.... No computer at home
#6....She knows about my financial situation, or maybe she's had a long day and is tired?
#7....Was told, the agency cannot do that

However the letters we send each other is not about quantity, it's about the quality of what we are talking about in the previous letters....In the 110 letters I have received from her only 2 were short, and in the same respect some (more than 2) have been quite short compared to the length I usually write.  What I want to do is 'SEE' her and 'TALK' to her, but if she don't feel ready then 'WHY' push it, I understand about the cost of Emf's guys, at the start I used to to send about 4/5 a week, now it's down to 3 one week and 2 the next.

I have 'felt' like asking the agency for these things, but as one member told me when I spoke to him through yahoo, you may make her 'lose' face by going behind her back, and as you people know, THAT is something that I would never want to do....

Oh and she knows that I cannot go there to see her until November this year, obviously wanted me there quicker, but understood why I couldn't..So in total that will have been 11 whole months of Emf's with no look see, or talk to, But because of the feelings we have for each other we are waiting, one more thing I will say, it is 'Bloody Hard'.

I hope this may take some of your thoughts and show you that 'she' maybe thinking about 'your' situation, sorry if I've got this wrong.

[shaun]

OK.  When I replied earlier I was in the middle of a project at home.  Done for now.

Mike.  Wow, I hadn't even considered the perspective you talked about.  You are more than likely dead on.  I went back and re-read most of the letters back and forth.  At first we discussed me visiting this summer and then I discovered a few things that will affect my finances as a result of the divorce and may affect the finances for a while.  It was at that point I made up my mind for December.  I really never spelled it out to Huaping. I simply told her that this summer was out and it would be after Christmas.  Prior to that, she asked me what Christianity was about, rather than trying to tell her via EMF I asked for her address and said I would send something to her.  Well, it hasn't even arrived here yet and I've said nothing to her about it.  So your right it looks very one sided to her.

Vince, I can be so narrow in looking at things sometimes.  Good grief, I have an extra digital camera sitting in my house and was wondering what I should do with it.  Second thought though it is used and does have a couple of small issues.  Your idea sound better; one with it's own printer.  I will check it out.

Chong, thank for the support but really everyone needs a Mike in their life.  He appears to be one of those kind of guys that see though the smoke an mirrors and see what the issue is and speak to the issue and calls it what it is.  He doesn't sugar coat it, he just tells it like it is.  I've read most of what he has said on this site.  About 99% of the time he is dead on.  If you read enough of what he says, you realize he has compassion and is considerate but when he speaks to an issue he simply speaks.  I was also able to glean some things for you also that will help.

Mike I wouldn't say you are rude, you are just a straight shooter and you call it like you see it.  That is a good thing.  I brought this issue up not expecting people to day poor old Shaun, and not because I want Huaping to woo me but because I do not want the relationship to end.  The only reason I mention the wooing was that I noticed the change in that first.  I know it can't always be that way.

If there was a way to go to China today I would do it but it is not financially possible right now.  I might be able to go before Christmas but the school system I work for really frowns on taking school days off for personal reasons and I think I should honor that if at all possible.  Somehow I do not think they would believe me if I called in sick every day for a couple of weeks from China.

And as I said when I first came to this site.  You guys are the ones with the knowledge and experience.  My job here right now is to listen and learn.  I am sure this will not be the only bump in the road.

Thanks for all of your insight.Scottish Rob, thanks for your reply.  The one thing I can say is that none of this is easy.  But it does have its merits. It is so different and most everyone I talk to here is against it.  So thanks for tell me, it takes a huge amount of patience and a lot of trust to walk though all of this.  Patience isn't something that comes easy for me.