If you need advice and help from an in-service chnlove agency translator

[Arnold]

Toon , first .. I want to tell you , that this Letter tell's me so much of this Woman , I could fill a whole page .
It might look like not much to you , but being married for 30 year's to the same Woman and understanding chinese Women somewhat , I think there is obsolutely nothing wrong with this Profile .

I also understand your point , of what happened to you , which was sickening and more so seeing it happen to other's here too .

Even what happened to you , stay positive moving on to the next Lady , remember she has nothing to do with the Bad one .
Good Luck Toon , we wish all our member's the SAME happiness .

[Spruik]

I can see that she is a sensitive and romantic person... in a very special way, but  I would like to have some idea if she might (and I say "might") fit in with me and my environment.

I have a real (private) forest to offer (off course she is not liturally speaking), but maybe she wants to live in the city close to a Chinese community...

I am sure some would play table-tennis, which I would appreciate. But I would have to ask. I would probably go through a significant number to find one who does.

Well, maybe I am just dumb... :-/

[Arnold]

Hey , that is a Word I don't like to hear anybody calling himself !!!
Nobody is Dumb for asking any questions including dumb one , which this is in no way one of them .

[China Shark]

Proteus, let me explain a few things to you then I expect legitimate replies back and not candy coated corporate nonsense that Chnlove likes to spew when cornered. First off many of us have been flimflammed here and we are getting sick and tired of the doubletalk. First and foremost why is that you guys generically dress up the girls profile knowing about 70% or more is just what we want to hear. Give you an excellent example. My ex that I was writing to claimed to not smoke or drink, and said she frequented the gym regulary. All three of these things were complete outright lies. How do you or the agency justify this type of deception? It is not a cultural difference either, lying is lying and theft will always be theft. No amout of justification or rationalization will make it acceptable practice. We are being sold a bill of goods that is based on lies. I have complained numerous times to Chnlove for being taken advantage of my the agencies and translators and as a result I stopped getting admirer letters altogether because I surmise I was blackballed and this was mearly a retalitory strike against me. In fact I know that Chnlove is aware of these discrepencies because they have been refunding credits to many of us on here. Your 10 policy is crap because if fraudulent behavior is going on why should we have to pay through the nose first only to find out that we are being deceived. I am still getting fake letters as responses to my cupid notes I have been sending lately. In fact I live in China yet the responses are stating I live in Australia or that I'm living so far away from them. I truly would like to know your motives. Yes, you are very clever and imagine quite educated. I must play devil's advocate because I am not buying this altruistic benevolent posture you are taking on here. Love and helping thy fellow man, think not. I think you are a plant working public relations for Chnlove as well as the agencies. There are too many inconsistenies occurring within the agencies as well as Chnlove. Some people want you to be real yet I need some more specific answers to our nitty gritty questions. We do not even know if you are male or female, why should we trust you at all. In any relationship there is give and take and comprimise to reach an equitable cohesive middle ground. We are giving to you yet you come back we generic answers we already know. We are not a bunch of school boys. Most of us on here are degreed professionals from all walks of life. Give up something that we really don't know about therefore giving us reason to trust you. I am to the point of requesting direct contact in the first letter because number one I live in Nashan, Shenzhen therefore I can meet them anytime I want to. The one girl I met outside of emfs the agency called her immediately to try to get 3,000 rmbs out of her for us meeting one another. These agencies are scum and need to start being accountable for this disreputable behavior. If I have direct contact at least I have control over how much they can truly steal from me. The agencies and translators are to blame for this and Chnlove for turning a blind eye to it. But now we have organized just like the women and are fighting back. I am sure the revenues have dropped dramatically since all of the information lately has made all of us aware and what to look for. The days are numbered for these people. Also, the comment about contacting the police or govt. agencies is a joke because first off the curruption, second they could care less about westerners getting fleeced. They probaly find it quite amusing I would imagine. Bring it on Proteus show us what you got. Put on your game face or leave the room.
China Shark Mike

[Proteus]

Hi Martin, I re-readed some posts and found I missed a question you asked, sorry. Before this forum started, I sometimes visited the official forum of chnlove and read in a thread your planning to start a forum of you own. I never posted a a word on their offcial forum because I know their censorship. I found your forum by accident on google. Then I am here.

Hi Toon, thank you for asking. The standard form of a lady's profile is made up of her self-introduction and expectation of men. I understand your complaint but in the name of fair play, I can offer no help. You pay to chnlove and ladies pay to agencies so no side is superior to the other. You've read profile unsatisfactory. On my side, I've sometimes come across profiles of men badly or insulting (with obscene words mostly) written. If there will be a regulation on profile writing, I hope it will protect both sides.

Hi Mike and Ed, thank you for your thoughts. With this thread growing, I already felt the title of my beginning post was a little hasty. If I left you a false impression that all the questions you asked with or without basic respect would be answered with humbleness and patience to your satisfaction, as you expected from a customer care worker, I apologize.

Mike, as to the specific reason why your ex-girlfriend turned out a different woman she claimed in her profile, only she and her agency can give you the answer. But I admit there is a tendency for such things to happen more than individual cases. Fake advertizement is a thread in all trades. Maybe you can try to find out if your qulification as a teacher and background information are completely consistent with that your employers introduce to your students.

You are absolutely right to say "they could care less about westerners getting fleeced". I've no idea of chnlove.But the generally accepted morality for an agency is, ladies first, credits second, men last. The place of first and second might exchange positions, but never the last. I think Vince has already found some answer to the functioning of an agency with his wisdom and logical deduction (in Chong's thread of extreme caution).

An agency is expected to fulfill a certain amount of credits for chnlove and themselves per month, with monetary encouragement ( about 11 HK$ per credit).
Then a translator is expected to fulfill a certain amount credits for agency and him/herself, with more pressure than encouragement, by all means
This is why the same translator can bring a couple to a happy end and at the same time do the opposite.

Mike, you situation is particular. Thank you for showing up. I admit at the beginning I didn't pay enough attention to you guys who are experienced. You are old hands and too clever and alert to be cheated. I care for the men newly joined mostly because they are most innocent and vulnerable to cheats and hurt. I carefully select my words because I fear to pass them a pessimistic impression of chnlove and of chinese women. Now I begin to know you who have already been cheated and have fury in your heart. You want justice and it's absolutely a justified demand. But I have one heartfelt piece of advice, try not to spread your doubt and anger to others, especially the other chinese women you are going to meet in the future, who are innocent. Every relationship is a give and take, doubt is definetely a poison growing more and more fatal in every give and take. I know I still failed to answer some of your questions but I've done all that I can.

[China Shark]

Proteus, you know nothing about me so do not assume to character assissinate me for disagreeing with you. I am not bitter or angry like you seem to think. First off I have a lot of gratitude towards Chnlove for pointing my life in a new positive direction. I love everything about my new life here. Before you sent this response you should have read through my old posts going back to October to get a better idea of my mindset and who I am. I  moved to China to embrace the culture and the people. If you perceive me as bitter why am I still here working and enjoying my life. Yes, it is because I truly want to be here. Like before your answers were once again generic politically correct nonsense which failed to actually address the questions posed. You are quite effective with scematics and seem to have charisma to have been accepted so readily by other members. Yes, I am cynical and suspicious and for good reason. I'm getting tired of seeing these guys on here getting taken to the cleaners. You failed to answer one of the most crucial questions I asked. How do you justify or rationalize outright theft or deception. In my case my girl's profile was completely fictious in everyway. If I had known her real personality I would have never pursued it further. I am okay with maybe the first one or two emfs being from the translators but you have agencies sending out complete fabrications of fictious profiles for extended periods at a time. Are you working as a public relations specialist for Chnlove or the agencies? Are you the owner of one of the agencies that has been victimizing the brotherhood as of late. These questions I am posing could be reasons why you chose to come on here when you did. You see I do not believe in coincidences at all. Everything happens for a very specific reason. No accidents in life. Which brings up the timing of your arrival. Right after Martin sent in that petition about the agencies to Chnlove. Coincidence or calculated move? Your arrival also followed some major negative press about all the bad agencies. If I were a betting man I would say you are working with them. Before you responded to my post you should have went back to October on Chnlove to read my posts from the beginning to try to understand where I am coming from before making judgements on my character. Guys on here know what kind of person I am. For one I say it like I see it whether it be negative or positive. I do not hide or attempt in anyway to mislead people by spouting meaningless rhetoric. I will publicy apologize if you show us some way to trust what you are telling us. Right now as it stands you have not told us anything so far that we didn't already uncover ourselves. Are you a man or a woman. I suspect a man by the prose of your writing and directness. Before you respond back do some research on me and they pose your questions. I read all your postings prior to actually posting on this thread.
China Shark Mike

[China Shark]

Good job with Spruik Proteus.

[Rhonald]

You failed to answer one of the most crucial questions I asked. How do you justify or rationalize outright theft or deception.  

Mike you asked him a question that unless he was the actual translator deceiving you, he could not rightfully answer. If you ask a person who did you no wrong, he will say he was honest. If you ask a dishonest person if he did you wrong, his answer would be the same. So why base your belief on a persons integrity upon answering a fundamentally flawed question. Please do not take my statement in believing that Proteus is just a translator. My gut instincts say he was encouraged by Chnlove to participate on this form. In either case, he is not the person who can wave a magic wand and make everything better. It is up to us, and also thanks to you for being on the front lines overseas, in taking care of the brotherhood.

Proteus even admitted to this by saying that us men come last. So it is up to us to be on guard. But if we are the suppliers for the agencies, it seems that the long-term effects of dishing us will backfire on them.

Mike, I meet you in person and I think you are a great guy to hang out with. On line you tend to follow the common western tact of being up front and in your face attitude. Even in warfare us westerners have always wished for the dramatic showdown to resolve our issues once and for all. I hope Paul Todd, who seems to have a vast knowledge of the Eastern mentality, can support me here: but the Eastern concept in business and war is to take a more indirect approach. That is why they like to discuss business over meals and take some time to reach a consensus.

Spruik, I have worked in a bank and in a sporting goods store. In both places I was strongly encouraged to sell certain products and services over others. They would sometimes put quotoes on us to meet. Sometimes, as in the sporting good market, there were incentives if certain products were sold. I tried never to let these influence my support of the customer in picking the right product. Does this mean that I should stop banking or purchasing any sports supplies?

It seems that Proteus is being dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't. When he doesn't answer our questions directly he gets called to the carpet. When he admits to dishonesty in agencies he is held personally responsible.

Proteus, I have to comment on an error in one of your responses. You stated that Chnlove is our protection towards the agencies. The Chnlove website says that it is for serious minded woman looking to marry. If the legal age to marry in China is 20, then Chnlove should not have any women's profiles that are under that age. Since they do have underage profiles - this conflicts directly with their statement.

[Paul Todd]

Hi Proteus,
I have a question about the lady's at the agency you work for.I understand you can not speak for other agency's but in your experience what is the main method of recruiting these fine lady's. Do you use newspaper add's? I understand that not all of them have computers in their homes so the internet would not be that successful,maybe word of mouth? You seem to have many lady's on your books so you must have a strategy and a good one at that! Thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions.

[davidaquincy]

Here is my question.

I sent an emf to my lady one day. I thought I messed something up in the letter after I sent. Went to retrieve the letter 10 seconds later in my sent box  and wow. Delivered?? How does that happen. Makes me think something fishy going on.

[Proteus]

Hi Everyone, old lad Protous back again. Last night is hard, with lightenings and thunders, maybe heaven is crying for this sad day for my country, but I forgot to check the weather of Beijing. :exclamation:

Hi davidaquincy, sorry I don't know how the emf system works on the side of you men. Does it work like hotmail or yahoo? For your case, my suggestion is to draft your letter in Word before sending it.

Hi Paul, internet and mouth to mouth are major ways. International marriage is a trade not very supported by government and public opinion, so few newspapers will help them to put on ads. The speed of computer and internet spreading in China may succeed your speculation. More and more agencies are making more effort to put on ads on internet.

Hi Rhonald, about the age issue. I guess we need to take the difference of legal marital ages of different countries into consideration. I am willing to make another post to describe the methods chnlove take to protect you, if you would like.

Hi sameldrum1, thank you for your thonghts. Unlike you, I feel no commitment to chnlove but I still would like to help improve their service. Your concern is typical and the major one I am trying to take care of here.

Hi Mike, thank you for this better drafted post with clearer stateing of your questions. I am naturally more responsive to questions than complaints. I can't read your heart but I can read logical words. Thank you for your invitation for me to read your other posts and telling me you have read all my posts. Sorry I refuse to accept the assumption that one can make comment of another only after reading all remarks and witnessing all actions of them, time is precious to everyone, I choose to make discreet comment with reading and witnessing part. But if one day I come across your other posts, I will surely read them with more interests. Thank you for your comment and speculation on my identity, I stick to the answer I have given.

I find this highlight sentence "How do you justify or rationalize outright theft or deception." with joy as if I found a diamond in sands. That's what meaningful expression is!

There is no way to justify or ratinalize theft or deception, is my answer. Does it sound helpful? I don't want to quote the impossibility of utopia to perform cynicism. I want to concentrate on two points. How to help those who have been cheated to get justice? How to help those innocent new members avoid being cheated? To the first question, the only way comes into my mind is complaining to chnlove customer care. I want to talk more about the second.

My suggestion is for you to give pressure to chnlove and have them take more effective methods which includes three (coming to my mind so far).

1. Select letters to check if agencies do the translation properly with a certain frequency.
2. Make it compulsory for agencies to inform ladies then they receive a letter.
3. Apart from rating scores, add success stories to the background information of agencies for men to judge their service.

As I have realized and said, doubt is never a good foundation to start a relationship. The aim I am trying to achieve is to make chnlove a more relible and transparant service where members can find their spouse with an innocent and pure presumption instead of playing hide and seek in every letter.

Thank you, see you later!

[China Shark]

Proteus, your answers are getting better. With that credibilty and trust will soon follow. I'm not the bad guy just the guy trying to protect the brotherhood's interest. You are showing the newbies the pitfalls and appreciate the effort put forth. In in fact you are working with us I welcome you to our forum. Before I even discovered Chnlove I was played online by a scammer and ended up losing a mere $360 but that wasn't the difficult part. It was learning to trust people once again, especially an overseas dating service. I know of at least one other member who suffered this fate prior to joining Chnlove also. I overcame the trust issues once I fully embraced Chnlove until as of late. We are all generally guys with good hearts just trying to find our place in the world. All we ask is that we are treated fairly and with respect. Hope to hear more and more things from you Proteus. One thing I have to say whatever your reasoning I have respect for you because it takes a lot of guts to be the odd man out. Yes, you will take the brunt of complaints from members that feel slighted whether legitimate or not. Perception is reality to each and every individual. It might appear to be a scam because the chemistry wasn't there or the lady just wasn't the right fit. As a somewhat objective individual maybe you can bring some more clarity to our situation.
China Shark Mike

[Proteus]

Hi Everyone, Good evening, my evening!

About the age issue (females under 20 you found on chnlove), I did some further investigation and here's the outcome.

In Chinese Constitution, a citizen above 18 has the right of voting. In Civil Law, 18 has full capacity for private rights. In Marriage Law, 20 for women and 22 for men are the minimum age for marriage.

Then I tried to register into some famous domestic Chinese marrige and dating sites and found their entrance ages are both 18. I attach the links here (Chinese characters may be unintelligible to you but the figure 18 would be easily spotted I suppos).

http://search.zhenai.com/register/serverrule.jsp
http://www.jiayuan.com/register/clause.php

So I guess signing up to chnlove is a conduct which should comply with Civil Law, and marriage different.

[Proteus]

Sorry Gautam, I didn't find your private message until today. Sorry for my carelessness. I found Mike's message together with yours today. I suggest anyone who has questions ask publicly here. No problem if you still send me a message and I will answer them all here.

Hi Vince, it's an interesting question. Answer to this question might help you better understand my motive. I care for the ladies because we are from the same country, I care for you because we are the same gender. With this fact revealed, I hope to make a requst. Indeed this forum has its particular aim and welcomes particular members, but it's open to the whole world. Chinese men and western women all have rights to as least view our posts. When our remarks involve them, let our brains run faster than our keyboards, ok?

Mike, I don't know if I should say thank you or something else. Your words started a war in my heart, my guilt for impotence against my conscience to pursue something right. One choice for me is to stand out and reveal everything I know (actually you already know 90% of what I know, the addition I can add is evidence), as preparation for a lawsuit against chnlove and rotten agencies, which will probably bring the bankruptcy of the agency I work in, unemployment of my colleagues and hatred from my boss and colleagues. Since my evidence cannot affect other agencies, some who are more qualified for punishment would be spared. I am too coward to choose this way.

But still I will thank for your showing up to let me understand different needs from this diverse brotherhood. Some of you find your love on chnlove and feel as least some extent of gratitude to it, some are cheated or even hurt and feel disappointed and even angry, some are new and trying to find how to use the service in a best way. Now I have to sadly admit my limitation. I cannot help all of you who are in need of help to an ideal extent.

There is constantly an instinct in my heart to emerge which lures me to reveal the possibility of cheat from women themselves and other international dating sites, to justify the defects of chnlove. But it will only make the vision of internation marriage and dreams of some members here dimmer. Yet I know dishonesty happens every day to those unlucky. I feel my heart a little twisted.

Sometimes I envy my female colleagues, they share the same montherland and same gender with ladies, therefore care much less for the opposite gender. Meanwhile they have a far looser defination of justice and honesty because they seldom, if not never, get interested in how a man feels.

I know I am a little off the topic. Mike, with regard to your situation, my ability to help is meager. But I still hope to give you some advice, no matter wise or blind, they are at least heartfelt. Since you are already in China, chnlove is the last choice suitable to you. Forgive my honesty, a majority females on it want a husband together with an instant green card. Learn a little Chinese and try to make friends firstly with Chinese boys. The willingness to learn Chinese shows you want to treat your lady equally in the most important aspect, communication. The willingness to make friends with boys shows your are interested in whole Chinese people. I wish you good luck!

So far for today, good night, good morning, good afternoon, good day!

[Martin]

This was a very good post Proteus.  I look forward to future posts from you.  Welcome to the brotherhood.