Denied

[Martin]

Sly, I believe SHE meant the woman conducting the interview.  That was how I understood it.

[Sylvain D]

That is what i can think too but i can not really understand why she said that :s

[David K]

Neil, I don't know how it is in Canada, but I do have experience at being denied
visitor visas by NZ Immigration. It might be relevant to your situation.

Firstly, as the other posters note, don't give up.
You may have lost the battle, but you can still win the war :-)
And in my experience, it was the battles that proved that the
ties between us were no passing fancy.. Handy to know :-)
Sometimes I wonder whether Immigration don't "stress test: a relationship
to see if its genuine. But that would be crediting them with more intelligence
than I think is warranted.

Secondly plan the operation like a military campaign. Hidden deeply in the
Immigration Website was a complaints process, and also we have an
"Official Information" act like the US FOI. After the first rejection, I asked
for all the details of the complaint process and ALL the documentation of
the first rejection INCLUDING ALL DOCUMENTS NOT IN ENGLISH.  This gave
INZ notice that We were not going to go away, and that the application
would be subject to close scrutiny. (Cost approx $120)

Thirdly, "take the fight to the enemy". Wherever we went, I took a camera
and pictures. I then assembled a timeline portfolio by month. 18 months,
2-3 pages per month, 130 pics in all. This we sent off to INZ and then followed
up with updates every two months until they asked us to "cease and desist"
At that time I figured we were ahead. :-)
WE finally got just a letter in the mail saying "residency approved" - no
further questions, interviews or anysuch.

So I took 2 tacks:
1: is that these dudes are overworked, and if you can make it easy for them
to tick the Yes boxes on their computer screens, and hard for them to click on the
No boxes, you are headed well on the road to a successful outcome. These guys
are assessed on applications processed per week / month. If your case is easy
and it helps their brownies points they are more likely to approve.
2: I made it clear that we had competent legal advice and were talking to the
local electorate Member of Parliament.. ie that there were consequences to
an incorrect decision. Consequences are not common for civil servants, and
it tends to make them actually reasonable

Good Luck
David K

[Neil]

Thanks David.  I really am trying to appeal the decision.  The appeal was mailed, but typically, they have not responded, or even acknowledged that they received my letter.  It is very frustrating. 

My wife is constantly looking for confirmation that I have not given up or changed my mind.  And you're right, it really has strengthened our relationship.  She has taken a keen interest in everything Canadian - we spent a few days sending pictures back and forth from google earth.  She knows where I live - down to the building.  She knows where my family lives.  She has contacted my youngest daughter on qq, though they are almost exactly on opposite sides of the planet, which makes it difficult for them to chat. 

It really sucks.  My wife is 15 hours away from me (in time zones) and my daughters are 4 hours away in the opposite direction.  I'm stuck in the middle, working my ass off. 

Everyone says I should hire a lawyer.  One lawyer told me he couldn't help with an appeal, but if I drop the appeal, he could help with a new immigration case.  I think that's a load of crap.  I don't know what a lawyer can really do to help, beyond giving us a list of questions and answers.  I'm preparing for the appeal.  What really stinks is that everything I say at an appeal could have been said at the interview in Hong Kong, had they let me in the room. 

I feel lucky that I have a good job, not a lot of expenses and a lot of free time to chat with my wife.  I really wish she was here - everything I do, I imagine her here with me.  I'm thinking about buying a house (I rent now), but it will cut into my ability to return to China as often as I have. 

[David K]

Hi Neil...
Theres obviously a huge variation in opinion about the value of a lawyer.
Typically they seem to make whatever topic you bring to them mysterious
complex and beyond the comprehension of mere mortals. This then allows
them to take charge, tell you what they are doing ( this part is called
taking instructions) and then charge a substantial  fortune for going down
dead alleys that you would never have ventured near.

I took a different approach - I found a competent lawyer who was willing to
let me call the shots, do the running around, draft out letters etc - ie manufacture
the ammunition.
He ( and his firms letterhead) checked the ammunition and fired the gun.
This turned out really handy when I had to make representations to our
local Member of Parliament, who then had words to the associate Minister of
Immigration, who then instructed Immigration to issue a Visa.
The whole exercise took about 18 months and cost me $1500. Very reasonable, and
in my view money well spent.

It also gave me confidence that it is possible to go up against a bureaucracy and
prevail - so the next phase (residency) I did myself, and did successfully.
That took another 12 months.

I guess Canada is complicated by the State/Federal divide. My daughter and her
partner tried for a work permit in Canada, with job offer in hand. State was
enthusiastic, federal was like walking in a tar pit. They returned to NZ to apply from here.
So I guess thats another argument for a GOOD immigration lawyer who acts on
behalf of you and your good lady to secure the outcome you want at the least
possible cost ( in both time and money)

So persevere.
Its not the size of the dog in the fight; its the size of the fight in the dog.
And extend my wife's good wishes to yours. 
We persevered, prevailed, and could not be happier. 
As she says "YiQi Kuaile"

:-) David K

[Martin]

David...this is really great advice!  I am going to "sticky" this thread, so that it is near the top always...because this kind of advice can help so many people.  Thank you.

[David K]

An Aside: A Trap for young ( or in my case, not so young) players.
I logged on, read a few threads, and then settled down to give Neil
some more encouragement. Wrote quite a bit, and then hit [Post].
It came up [denied], because the interval in which I was writing
exceeded 60 minutes, and the system had silently logged me off. :-(

From memory it was about the strategy of appeal, which is mostly the strategy
of paperwork.

Get onto their case and find out who is deciding the appeal (Case Officer??)
and where they can be contacted.
Then keep in contact on a regular basis. The squeaky wheel gets the oil :-)

Keep in mind that this Dude is going to peruse your file, with a view to making a decision
So the trick is to make it easy for him to see things your way.
Even thought you might feel like choking the living daylights out of him, or feel
outraged at being unfairly treated, bear in mind the words of the good book:
" A Soft answer turneth away wrath"
So your letters should be short, clear and emotionally neutral.

Here in NZ the operations manual states right up front:
"All immigration officers must act on the principles of fairness and natural justice when
deciding an application". So I always mention being guides by the principles of
fairness and natural justice in the first paragraph. The rest of the letter is a
one page summary of the detail that follows ( i.e attached are Yahoo logs etc )
so the guy (or guyette ) does not switch off

What I finally did was assemble all my correspondence as a series of linked Word documents
that I burned to CD, compleat with a nicely formatted lightscibe label. So reviewing
the case became point and click, easy peasy, and where's that big Approved stamp.

I also made it clear (politely) that I was not going to go away, and was quite prepared
for a war of attrition ( which is what transpired).
Regrettably there is also the potential for covert racism. Most of the case officers in
Hong Kong are not native english speakers, and are a touch adverse to what they perceive
as interference in their patch. Whether it was memories of the Boxer rebellion or the Opium wars
O don'y know, but I had a distinct underlying feeling of "Kung Fu to you Mr BigNose".
Things improved once we transferred to debate "Onshore" to NZ

So there you go:
Good luck, Keep persevering and keep us updated with the results


Peace
David K

[Smaug]

Any updates Neil? I hope you are silent because you are together now.

[Neil]

I contacted an immigration lawyer the other day.  As I figured, at this point in our case, he can't do much more than is already done.  He has no better ways to contact immigration than I do.  Apparently he has as much difficulty communicating with a human being in the immigration appeal division as I do.  He suggested I continue to send faxes requesting the status of my case until someone contacts me.  It's been 6 months since my interview and still no decision has been made.

I'm tempted to start looking for offshore work, or head to the oil fields, if we are denied again.  I could probably find a camp job that runs two or three weeks in, one or two weeks out that would facilitate me travelling back and forth to China more often.  I'm an industrial electrician, but I don't have a whole lot of experience yet.  I've been a journeyman for 3 years.