Is talking difficult?

[Sylvain D]

Well, so long time that I didn't post here, sorry for that.
My life with Liyan is still going on, after our wedding last year.
Recently, I noticed that she was talking to some of her friends about her and me, and that she may met some "problems" about working in France, and also, about her and me, that I didn't really help her to learn french language, that I "preferred" to do anything else.
Well..
I will try to explain it the best way I can, so that, maybe some of you could also give some advices or try to understand if I am right or if I am totally wrong... sometimes, I just think that "patience" is a easy word to say, but to use.... sometimes seems to be a little bit "difficult" one.

As most of you know, Liyan is learning french language, and now, she is in a better classroom to learn it. Only french language, with videos, talkings, papers and some other stuffs...
At first, Liyan asked me to teach her french language. So I did it. I told her, but most of times, when repeating two times or three times the same world, she then said me "honey, what you say is not what I hear". And when my daughter talked to her, she then  said a little bit later "honey, your daughter teaches me better french than you".... Ok for one time about that comment. So I said that I know that most of times, I maybe talk quickly or don't "end up" my words (for example I can say "Christma" instead that "Christmas", even if I try to be careful about Liyan, anyway, I know that most of the french people talk sometimes quickly and also don't end up most of the words beeing said.
The problem is, another time, she told me again that my daughter could teach her better french than me. .. Well, of course, I fed up quickly because I was "bored" that she could say a comment about that. As I said "at first, I am not meant to be a teacher, but I also do my best to help you, the best way I can, whatever it is about learning french or anything else"...
I think she didn't really "understand", because later, when talking to her friends, and also to some people in a church where we usually go for her (because chinese people go there and also, because of her religion too), she let them know that I was most of time facing my computer or that I didn't want to teach her french language instead that doing my best about that...
Well...
I just feel very angy at those moments. Because I felt guilty for other people, even if I tried to explain Liyan many things. She also told it to her family... :/
Wow... of course, man would not go in China to see the family again with a happy face, saying "eh, guess what! you know that I don't wanna help your daughter, but it's wrong, you must trust me"....
No, I just feel a little bit like "confused"... most of time, when I come back from work, I see my wife facing her computer, I then talk to her and ask news about her day, how good was the lesson.... but then, she doesn't say too much about that, and later, she also says me that I could talk to her more....
when she is talking to her friends on QQ for example, I also let her facing her computer and I also play on my computer or talk to some friends, too.
But most of time, I just feel that she let me guess I am sometimes "bad guy" and that she is a "good woman"....
Well..
As I said to her earlier, man can not find a job easily in France if not talking the french language, at first. And also, it is not so easy.
About the papers, I also think I did my best to help Lliyan to come in France and also to have a long visa journey... that we need to renew in 2 months.
I showed her many processes but it just seems sometimes that it is not enough.

Even when I said to Liyan that I could teach her more french if she wanted, then she replied "no no, it's ok, don't teach me, I will learn alone"....
I know that because of the language barrier, sometimes it is not that easy...
Even talking about holidays in south of france, she told me that she didn'tn enjoy so much that, because she preferred the warm weather in Gz...

Also yesterday, she felt that I was a bit angry on few things and maybe she noticed that I don't feel fine about what she can think about myself and what she can say to her friends and family about me....
I also guess that when facing her family once again in October, I would better be like "shy" or "confused" instead that being there with a big smile on my face...

I also tried to talk about it to Liyan... but well, i don't really understand what she can think about it, and why she talked first to her friends about that, and not to me firstly.

Maybe some "other thing" to be mentionned. I know that I don't learn chinese language at home and that also, when she is talking to her friends, I look about news in the world and do some other things, and maybe she feels that I am "free" to do anything I want, instead of studying..But as I said, I can also look for some little jobs for her, but which may mean "free money".. talking about some jobs in restaurants or just carry some packages from one point to another one, because as she told me "she doesn't want to think too much when working"...

Anyway, in less than 10 montsh, she REALLY improved her french language, most of my family and my friends noticed that... but to her, she just let me know it is just "so basic" and feels angry about that. I mean, she wants to be able to talk it very good, even if the french language is maybe one of the most difficult languages to be talken because of the "time verbs" to be used, and for many other things too. (using yesterday, before yesterday, one year ago, tomorrow, after tomorrow, "i would have liked..." and so on..."
I try to explain Liyan many things about that... I just feel she's fed up and just wants working...

Well...
Does anyone have some idea/comment ?
I also try to talk to Liyan and to say what is good or not when talking together, because I think it is just like some "little" problem that could be solved quickly...

[shaun]

HI Sly, welcome back.   I've been wondering about you and your wife.

It is funny because I have talked with a few local friends who have been through some of the same issue.  I live in a city where there are many retired military and I have made friends with several with wives from different countries mostly from Korea, the Philippines and Germany.  Let me share some of the observations they have made about marriages like yours.

1. Quite often the expectations from both the husband and the wife are too high.  Because they are in love they think everything will be perfect and easy.

2.  Quite often because of these high expectations not being met frustration and anger build leading to ignoring each other only making matters worse.

3.  Once the honeymoon is over, some say between 3 and 6 months people really begin to find out who the other person really is and often they are disappointed especially in marriages from differing cultures.

Sly, most of the people have told me that the first two years are critical.  The relationship is going to change and there is not getting around that and sometimes we don't want it to change.  But a marriage between two different culture matures more slowly the first couple of years because of the difficulties in blending the two cultures.

I was told to hold onto the initial quality of the relationship.  For example; learning the other persons native language.  With Peggy and me, I work with her diligently to pronounce the words perfectly.  She makes mistakes and we laugh about it but we keep working at it.  But the interesting thing is that it is relationship building time too.  She knows that I am there for her.  We can say we are but if you remember these women look at what we do more than what we say.  Just as important that your wife learns French it is important that you learn Chinese too.  You didn't just marry her but her family too and they want to be able to communicate with you so you need to put in the effort to learn it.  Later much later she can learn the conversational French you use.

So Sly she may be angry with you and she may be telling others what is going on but you need to get over it and get past it.  What is the point in getting upset about it?  Step up and be the man.  Get back in there and teach her correct French, the words precisely as they are suppose to be said without frustration and like you have the rest of your life to teach her one word.  Relax and laugh with her and then ask her to teach you the same word in Chinese.  Laugh when you mess it up.  Get that original feeling back.  It won't last the rest of your life but it will at least get you through the next couple of years until you are both comfortable to the natural changes that will happen in your relationship.

I hope this helps.

Shaun

 

[Philip]

Sylvain, thank you for sharing your experiences so honestly. I am sorry about the difficulties you and your wife are facing. My guess is that she is feeling isolated, and probably upset and frustrated that her French is not improving as quickly as she would like. My wife is teaching herself English with a book and CDs. She scribbles all over the book with Chinese pronunciations of English words, and she checks them with me afterwards, when I get home from work. She also thinks that her English is not good, but she has made a lot of progress since October last year. It is my job to be positive and to tell her how well she is doing. Friends and relatives in China can say what they like (and they do), but I know how hard she is working to learn a language which is difficult for her.
My wife feels isolated too, and she does not like to go out on her own in the daytime, here in Hong Kong, though when she is in China, she is happy to go anywhere, with or without me. Though, when we are together, we go everywhere together.
I am not an expert, this is only my first marriage, but I would advise making some special trips together, whenever you can manage it. Make time for each other when neither of you uses the computer. Get out of the house. Do something active and fun which does not require you to be talking all the time. My wife really got into growing vegetables in the garden. We have been on a few trips to see places in Hong Kong on the weekend.
I think your wife is probably missing her family and friends, and the easy communication she has with them. She also wants to work, so that she can have some purpose and self-worth. But it will be some time before she will be able to work, so she needs positive encouragement and patient love.
The computer is great, because it is a way for her to connect with her family and friends, but in other ways, it is not a friend to your relationship. You don't want to have your back to each other, you want to face each other.
I'm sure you will get through this tough time. Stop thinking about how the relatives may view you when you go to China. Just focus on now. Make each other laugh. Go places. Don't be so hard on yourself. Most of all, stay positive.
By the way, whereabouts are you in France? My wife and I will be driving down to the South-West of France from Calais via the Vosges at the end of July for 3 weeks. Any chance of a meet-up？

[Vince G]

The different language can be frustrating for all involved. I still have a bit more of a New York accent even living the south for some years now.When talking I try not to slur my words. When I was on the phone to a woman in China, she wanted to hear the words spoken so she learns faster this way. I had to explain the different accents which I believe all languages have. So I found slowing down the talking (words) helped and gave her time to process it.

Unlike westerners chinese cut right to the chase. They don't use kinder words to express something. Most westerners would say.. you put on a little weight? Where chinese would say Oh u fat. So you have to expect this. When she talks to others she may sound to you like bad mouthing you? It's how they express them selves. It is up to you to keep yourself from anger. Remind yourself why you love her and push aside the bad feelings rising. Have her do this too. Give her a kiss for trying. She will calm down. 

[john1964]

I totally agree with you word for word Vince, Well said, I have been caught many times with the misunderstanding of translation, My wife says it how it is and this i have to accept.

[Sylvain D]

Wow.
So many replies, as usual, and so many advices, too.
Many thanks for your answers, helpful ones !
I know why I love her, but maybe also because of some differences between our cultures, I can quickly become angry or "confused" when man says something that "sounds" "bad" to me. And she also told me that, even if she can be angry quickly, she does say nothing about it but let it wait and can let express herself later...
I know I don't study chinese as much as Liyan is learning french, then, I would maybe say that it is something I need to face if I want her to see that not only I can wort at day, but plus, when back home, I can also study more?
About visiting monuments, some places going somewhere, meeting friends, family, that can happen quite "often", but well, if we can not talk together in french, then... we can chose the english language. But i try to do my best by now to talk only in french, even if it is "difficult".

I will update that thread in a few days, so that man can see how things are doing.

Philip, we live in Chilly-Mazarin, about 20 mins from Paris by car and we will have holidays from July, 23, to August, 13, going to Carmaux, south of France (80 kms from Toulouse).
So, if we can meet, no problem, just let us know

Anyway, thanks again for all your comments, much appreciated !

[RobertBfrom aust]

Hi Sylvain , nice to read posts from you again , do not worry be happy , Sujuan said what Liyan says about learning from your daughter would be true as unless you wear very tight underpants the pitch of your voice would take some getting used to tone wise , whereas your daughter tones would be more [ audible ] acceptable to Liyans ear .
Sujuan although she can yabber on in English she finds listening to her female friends speaking English she picks up more words then she repeats them to me asking what the harder ones mean .
As our boarder speaks beautiful English complete with an American twang ha ha . I am waiting for Sujuan to start with the accent also , regards Sujuan and Robert .

[lfputman3]

Sly,
As Robert hinted, it is easier to learn a language from listening to children than to adults. Children do not have our accents or speech mannerisms. As for the speed issue in conversation. It is a concern for me here. Most people in Michigan can speak with a clip and if you throw in a thick accent which you find a bit farther north. It is total chaos. I remember talking to some people in China and they told me they had not problem understanding me. Well, I was in the army, like some of Shaun's friends, I know how to speak broken English, which I habitually do when I encounter it. Same thing when I travel south, I used to live in Savannah, so I slow down a lot.

Take your time, focus on her. Let her know you care about her. That goes for any woman from any country, basic Venus/Mars type psychobabble, but it is true. One of the things I was scolded for on my first trip to China was my lack of Chinese. There was no mercy even though while I was having dinner with the family, my father was in the ICU here stateside.

Don't just get her off the computer, get yourself off the computer.

Lloyd

[Jason B]

Sly, one thing I have noticed as well is that no matter what the language as natural speakers we have our own intereptation, slang, interpritations, inuendos and ways of saying things that are not learnt or taught when teaching a language, they are just picked up and we instantly understand what they mean.  But this is not the case for someone trying to learn a language.  I think that we talk in a more conversational way as apposed to a teaching formal way and this is where things may be causing some problems.  I know sometimes when speaking to Xia that she does not comprehend what I am saying due to it being said in a totally unique (in this case Australian) way.  This is nobodies fault just the way that we talk in a conversation manner.  Maybe a way forward is to try and formalise things a little bit and then once grasped to explain that another way of saying ****** is by saying ***** but they mean exactly the same thing but the way I just said ***** is a lot less formal and more conversational.

Just my observations that I have noticed while talking to Xia and she understands English very well.

[Chong]

Hey Sly,

As you wrote, learn Mandarin at the same time.

Buy your wife a French-Chinese/Chinese-French dictionary ( if you haven't already ).

Take walks and enjoy the fresh air and practice together.

[Arnold]

It's nice to have you back Sly , but of course .. we don't like to see you having this kind of problem with Liyan .. which by the way is quite understandable in these kind relationships and to be expected sooner or later at some point .

Anyway , I mostly agree with what Shaun had to say . Looking at how I have dealt with my Wife so far , is like this . As Shaun has mentioned that , ones the Honeymoon is over .. now this is something Qing and I ( as you might know ) are still very much in that Honeymoon stage and like to keep it just like that if we can . This can only be done , when both of you click on the same Cylinder and the Timing is right on all the time .
1: Love and respect ech other like from day one
2: Listen carefully what the other is saying when problem or no problem is at hand
3: Patience / able to adjust in all situations .. regarding how hard that might seem and come out even more in Love each time .. having it handled right and a loving way
4: If one takes time ( personal/closeness ) away from the other , like the Computer .. make sure it's for a "GOOD" reason .. NOT playing or goofing off . Chinese hate to "WASTE" time for NO reason
5: Last , I must admit .. I too have done this and now cut my time on the PC down to when she is at Work and I have down time to spend . When she's Home , it's always quality time .. if it's work or pleasure in or out of the House .

I also see , you and Liyan are under pressure for her to find work .. not only for extra Money .. but to keep her from going in crazy or feeling so helpless and not distributing into the marriage enough to make HER feel comfortable . This can of course drag on for some time ( one year/two years ) before learning a new language well enough to get a Job . She needs in this case more Patience and look at the distant Picture now and not just in short term . You on the other Hand , need to support Liyan and never let her even think .. that she's alone in this and letting her think .. that she maybe made a mistake going into this Bi-Culture Relationship .

Sorry , as we can only help with words of advice from a distance .. we do try our best as you know .. thats all we are able to do for you Sly . Start to look forward to October together and make this your "HAPPY" spot to go to when the going get's tough .

[halfpint]

Lots of good advice here that I won't repeat.  I just want to add this.  Good marriages dont just happen, it's something you need to work at.  Show respect to each other, listen to each other, understand what each other needs.  I believe the 2nd year of any relationship is the hardest.  You see all the good things in the 1st year, the 2nd year you start to pay more attention to the negative things, the 3rd year you find your balance.

Be patient, and work at making it good.  All the best to you.

[Hajo]

Hi Sylvain,

As I told you on Facebook, I am facing similar problems. But luckily my wife is not that harsh with me. Many of the things that have been said here are exceptionally true.

My wife tells me many times that the Danish language is difficult. Well, she is right, but Chinese is not easy too. As native German I had to learn it myself when I moved to Denmark a long time ago. It took me about three years to learn the Danish language. After that time I could communicate on a daily basis.

In some ways the Danish language is comparable with French. We have many silent letters in the words. From Germany I was used to that all letters in the word would be pronounced. But in my experience this is different in Danish and in French. When I hear a French word, it is not easy for me to write. And it is even worse for our wife’s as the do not have the same alphabet as we have.

For example, the word for water – eau – for me it sounds like you guys say “O”. Or take the word “vouz”, I think many of the French people say “vu”. That’s is not easy to understand for a foreigner.
 
It’s hard to say for me, but maybe your wife expects you to show an effort too. I learn Chinese for my part. My progress is slow but it makes her glad and it motivates my wife to learn more Danish. It also shows her, that learning a different language is not easy. When I listen to the Chinese lessons on the Internet, my wife takes her books and learns Danish. Those evenings when I do not study, my wife does not study too. I never told my wife about this observation. It is like, if you work, I work. I think it shows her that her family and her country mean something to me too. That is just what I think. But my wife gives me great credit this and she gets a lot of credit from her friends because I try to learn their language.

As it has been said before, Chinese are more direct in their way of expressing their meaning, as we understand it. It may sound harsh, but it makes it easier to understand too. There is no doubt what they mean. 2 more months and my wife will have her 2nd anniversary in Denmark. But it was only two month ago that her language skills began to improve seriously. Now we can communicate together without translators most of the time. Sometimes we look up words in the Danish – Chinese dictionary.

It needs a lot of patience and work from both. My wife did also tell me from the beginning that she wanted to work as soon as possible. She thought, that she just could go to any company and get a lousy paid job. Like they do in China. But here in Denmark, you cannot. You need to speak the language and we have the workers union system. The employers have to pay a minimum wage and therefore the take the best people they can get. It took my wife a couple of weeks to accept this. She talked also with Chinese friends at school, who told her the same. That helped.

As pointed out before, both of you will need patience. And when you are patient with each other, it needs more patience! Learning the language is not easy and you have to help her wherever possible. She told you that you are hard to understand. Well, the others might be right, you speak in your daily life pronunciation to her; it might be difficult for her to understand. But it could also be the “frequency” of your pronunciation. For example my new son (my wife’s boy) is difficult to understand for me. He is mumbling and does not speak out very loud when speaking Danish. I keep telling him, speak loud and clear. Otherwise it is not to understand.
So maybe it is not bad meant when you wife tells you, she cannot understand you. Try to imagine, what you would expect from her, if you were in China and you had to learn Chinese.

It’s a long and sometimes difficult journey to paradise, but it’s definitely worth it.

[Sylvain D]

Hi guys, many thanks again for all your comments and advices.
Hajo, you are right many words in french use silent letters and it may also be difficult for foreigners to guess how to spell it or to write it, (as for "belle", "jolie", and other words, the "e" at the end is not being said, and some other words like "eau" sound like "o", yes. But about that, Liyan understands it, by now
She got some friends that also gave her some advices and she also have a french/chinese dictionnary so that is really helpful for her.
Of course, I would also say that when getting married, man must be prepared to say that nothing is won in the new life to be shared and can easily come back home and have a happy life each day with his wife. I mean that we must go on to do all our best to get that happy life, and also, that each of us needs not only to show respect and love but also, some help and understanding, too. If man doesn't put sometime some "effort", so, something wrong can happen...

I've been thinking about all that and of course, that also let me "confused" for the first time I am with Liyan since we got married.
Talking more to her in english because we can better understand each other in that common language, helped me to understand her feelings about the french lessons with the "teacher".
She told me that the teacher at school, just said most of time to the students to work, 2 on a computer, and to listen some videos on a specific french url and then, to fullfil some questions on a paper.
It also seems that he doesn't help so much Liyan, to improver her french. Most of the students seem to be from Africa, so, as the french language is mostly spoken there, they don't have so many "problems" to talk it.
As I've been also talking to my parents about it (eh, they also have experience of life), we both agreed that maybe Liyan can find some "loosy jobs?" to work sometimes and getting some little money... as she told me that she didn't want a job like she got in China, she doesn't want "thinking too much", just having a job as carrying some bags from one place to another one, or something like that.
I also told Liyan that it is also difficult for me to see that she doesn't really like the lessons, but because she "changed" about the school (thanks to the OFII, which help foreigners to "integrate" the life in France and to be able to get a french ID card later, and also, help to have french lessons in France for foreigners, including a diploma at the end and a way to get a long visa id... I told Liyan that she should go on and I will spend maybe one hour to teach her each day some words that she can easily remember. She told me that learning too much is not good, but 2 or 3 words each day would be ok....
However, as said earlier in my thread, her french really improved, but maybe is she "confused" sometimes and maybe as the cultures are different, she maybe thinks different when learning, or maybe she doesn't know that she really improved.

Today, it seems that all's better and she also excused herself for the way she was a few days ago when I just came back from my company.
Thanks again to the brotherhood, I'll go on my other thread to give some more news about Liyan and me

[Jimmy]

My Daughter is teaching my wife English just because they like to sit and talk while at the same time she is learning Chinese. My 9 year old speaks Chinese as well as I do already. And since she is only in the 3rd grade it helps my wife to do her homework with her too. She is learning to read write and speak English from a 3rd grader. But then believe it or not I have a Chinese wife that is rotten at math. So they both get a lot done there too. I'm pretty much just the teacher that helps them both out when they get stuck. I love the way all of it is working. I love learning Chinese and my family unit just gets tighter and tighter. And because they know they are all helping each other, thier confidence levels are soaring. And all 3 of them really needed that.
All of us that have married Chinese women have a pretty unique situation, Just like the 24 hour rule, Never let testosterone or anything else  cause you problems. Stop, think, relax, and it will all come together