My thoughts are with Connecticut

[maxx]

Vince exactly The doors weren't locked down like they were supposed to be.Security Guards.Every school in Farmington New Mexico has them.In Farmington.They have regular police officers assigned to the schools.They are not rent a cops.

Willy yes it is possible.But not probable.It would happen probably the way Shaun posted.The U.S military has ben keeping records of how many solders will shoot at the enemy since WW 1.The report said.In a high stress situation 7 out of twelve men will fire there weapons.While the other five will hide behind whatever.What I found entersting about the report.Was that of the 5 that didn't fire the first time.They Will use them the second time they get a chance.And of the original seven that used there weapons.Only 3 of them will.Return fire the second time.

The point I was trying to make earlier.Is if somebody knows.That the others around them can and will protect themselves it is a big deterrent.Take Vince and Robert for example.Lets say I'm going to break into there houses.And steal whatever they have.We all three live in states where the law says that you must own a gun.As a professional thief.Or a junkie.I know that it isn't a good idea to break into a house that I don't know.It is especially dangerous for me.When I know the occupants of the house.Have a loaded firearm.And they have ben to the safety classes and are well versed in the use of a handgun.It is a no win situation for me.I'll go someplace else to do my stealing.Where my odds are better.That the owners of the houses I'm going to rob are not armed.

The key word here is deterrent.

[Willy The Londoner]

Sorry Shaun but you are wrong.  Americans keep letting these things happen.  You allow your lawmakers to be in the pockets of the NRA and others.  People got on the street about Wall Street but what about saving the life's of others.  Your President is right enough is enough - 4 times he has been to place in his tenures for similar events.  You cannot blame the Government for the situation that the people have created.   Get on the streets and demand action!

 And if the principal had a gun would she have shot the man? - I tell you it is not easy to pull that trigger the first time when pointing it at someone.  Or should she had hidden and evaluated the situation? 

So your answer is to put more guns in the hands of ordinary workers.  It that is the answer then all I can say is 'What a great country you have'.
 
And Maxx  you want more armed security guards in SCHOOLS!  It was an armed security guard that killed so many in MacDonalds. Putting Cops into schools - wow that is such a good enviroment to bring up children.  So how long would it be before a stressed up teacher or security guards guns down the pupils.

Security Guards in Schools, security guards in MacDonalds, etc etc.  What a great place to live. God Bless America - perhaps that should be God Help America.

Willy

[Jason B]

This guy has gotten so much more publicity since this sad and tragic incident than anyone deserves.  I read a quote supposedly from Morgan Freeman "It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

 CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

 You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

Makes you think....
But I have to ask if you already have security guards everywhere to try and prevent these crimes from happening is it already too late?  There I have said my piece and will say no more.  I like America, not all of her values etc. but in general I think you have a lot of good in you, affirmative action will make you great.

[Scottish_Robbie]

ANOTHER DUNBLANE...when is it all going to stop !!!!

[Vince G]

Maxx, I am not sure what "doors" you are referring? That school's principle implemented locked entrance doors where you had to get buzzed in, if they didn't know you you have to show a photo ID. They didn't let him in so he shot out a window. Or did you mean class room doors? Every place I know they are not locked unless there is a Lockdown of the school. Here in FL schools are lockdown all the time. The school in Conn. didn't have locks on the classroom doors. What happen was someone hit the PA mic on and the commotion was heard throughout the school so the teaches knew there was a problem from that.

The NRA? My "opinion" of them (not trying to agitate anyone so it's my opinion) they are just exaggerators with false promotions. I was a member. At the time the gov. was putting in place the Brady law (a 7 day wait) the NRA flooded my mail box with "it's just a ploy for the gov. to take all your guns" as this wasn't the case at all. So I said bye bye to the NRA.

I take the media with a grain of salt. I have seen to many of the news reports falsely covered. An example would be the town of the shootings. It's Sandy Hook, Newtown is a larger town next to it but the proceed to say they are in Newtown though they are not. 

[Rhonald]

Security Guards in Schools, security guards in MacDonalds, etc etc.  What a great place to live. God Bless America - perhaps that should be God Help America.

Willy

I think that looking at gun violence is short sighted and does not tell the true tale for America's cultural body count. Besides America's obsession with guns, it is also known to love cars. In 2002 the USA had about 287 million people while the UK had almost 50 million. So the USA has about 5.75 more people than England. For 2002 from my searching, in the USA 42,821 people died from car accidents compared to 3,431 fatalities on England roads. That's a 12.5 ratio of car related deaths or twice as much as the population vetween the USA & UK. So we have in America more guns & more cars which both in turn results in higher mortality rates then the UK.

I believe it is something deeper in the American Psyche that drives this self destructive behaviour. Now certain European countries also have high mortality rates linked to car accidents, but like death by firearms in developed countries, the USA leads in death by car accidents. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_mot_veh_dea-health-motor-vehicle-deaths

So

Willy Americans didn't create this mess, the American government did in their efforts have equal opportunity for everyone and to make a safe environment for everyone.

This is just another fine example as to how our government is failing the American people and trying to put a band aid on the wrong wound.

Shaun I see this so called blaming once again that it is the government's fault for the violence we see in America's society. No - I disagree with you. Just look at Hollywood and how it portrays the American gangster. They romanticise them and make them to be some how battling against the system.  America has stricter regulation on nudity in movies and television then it does for violence.

America was built upon a pioneering spirit, of the strength of the individual against the wilderness. This in turn has made the mantra we hear from too many groups championing of the ones personal rights are more important then the collective.

[maxx]

Vince schools must be set up different in the east then they are out here.Here 9 out of 10 schools have hollow steal doors.The make them that way because of the abuse the door takes everyday.And they are cheaper then a wooden door with glass in them.And they do lock them down.The news report I heard was that the keepper of the door keys.Hadn't botherd to lock the doors.If they had.Like you said it wouldn't of made any difference.With a glass and wooden door.

Jason Morgan Freemen didn't write it.Some guy on facebook wrote it.And it was so well written.That it went viral.And some where along the line.Morgan Freeman got credit for it.He is such a respected guy in the U.S. That everybody assumed it came from him.I have read the article a couple of time.And I tend to agree with what the guy had to say about the media.I was listening to the news today.While i was working.They were talking about the article.And maybe they had gone overboard with the coverage.Then the next news story.The media was standing outside the cemetery where they buried a couple of those kids today.And was trying to interview the kids.American media hypocrisy never stops amazing me.

Willy what do you think those guys wondering around the schools and the McDonald's in China are doing.Didn't there uniforms give you a clue.Maybe if they had bobbies on every corner in England.They could of stopped the school shooting in Scotland in 2003.Or maybe they could of stopped people from blowing up city blocks in London.Or wrecking business everytime some soccer team losses a game.Or maybe they could of stopped.That I.R.A. guy unloading a automatic weapon.On a bus fool of nuns and Children.The world had already seen what the blacks and browns were capable of.All they did was beat the shit out of people and create more resentment.

Willy since you don't like my idea.Of leveling the playing field.Though this has ben a tried and true practice threw out history.What do you think the world should do.Because this does happen in every country in the world.And like Rhonald posted.There is allot more people in the states then there is in Jolly old England.

Robert if you get a chance can you do me a favor? I seen you posted a couple of pictures on your facebook the other day.I'm talking about the picture of the Israel teacher and her students.And the one right bellow it.That had the statistics on it.Thank you I appreciate it.

[Robertt S]

[Willy The Londoner]

I think Rhonald has come close to it.

In the UK. In the years from 1999 to 2008 there were 32,298 fatalities on the roads of UK. That is an average of 7 a day.  But the US figures for just one year were over 42,000!  And the UK population is just 1/5 of that of the USA.  It all goes down to attitude.

Maxx yes those in the banks and major stores here are security guards but with no guns.  They are there for show more then anything. The only time I have seen Guns here is when they deliver money to the banks or ATMs. 

There was no way at that time to stop Dunblane from happening. But the action taken by all parties in the Government was fairly swift.  All semi automatic and pump action guns were banned. But they also banned any person having a firearm.  There was no gun culture in the UK as the USA but the 200,000 who owned registered firearms had to hand them in. With police follow ups if they did not. 

Of course criminal in the UK had illegally held guns and still have, but in general they are used to put fear into those who are in their criminal circles and not to members of the general public.   The public in the UK are not in fear of Gun Crime. They fear other forms of attack on the streets at night but not gun crimes.

Cars and guns are heavily featured in the US Movies. People firing off guns willy nilly. Bad guys and good guys driving through the street so badly that they leave havoc behind. The good guys want to catch someone who has murdered another.  Good in theory but how many people would they caused the deaths of in those chases if it was in reality. But trouble is reality is what some people take them to be. 

I am saying that Americans CAN change things.  People can change attitudes. 

Public attitude in America change the Smokers world.  When I was last there I was surprised as to how many places were non smoking.  Smokers became the bad guys.  Why because people realized that other peoples smoking was killing them and their kids AND they did something about it.

Since Dunblane crimes involving guns in the UK dropped 44%.  In the USA that would represent a lot of lives.

I cannot change the attitudes to guns in the USA but the people of the USA can and now is the time to do it.

Robertt S.  Israeli's are NOT taking these measures to protect the people from their OWN people.They live in an almost permanent war zone.  Plus teachers in Israel have probably been fully trained in using firearms as all, men and women, are required to serve in the military for a set time and are then on reserve for years after.

Willy

[Willy The Londoner]

I think our Australia colleagues really do have something to be proud of.  They put in a place a law banning semi automatic guns 14 years ago.

They have not suffered one mass shooting since.  In the 18 years before they put in this new law there were 13 mass shootings.

It has certainly saved a number of lives there.   In the UK there has been no such mass shooting since Dunblane although one person, in 2010,  did travel around for 8 hours and shot a total of 12 people some randomly but others he knew.

Again he shot himself when cornered.

Willy

[Scottish_Robbie]

To be honest the only two times I have seen people carrying guns were at John Lennon (Liverpool) Airport and Beijing Airport, when coming home the last time..

Gt to admit the first time (Liverpool) it put the fear of God into me...

[Vince G]

Before anyone goes off the deep end with thoughts of people here in the US all carry guns. Where I live there are 1,780,172+ people. There are shootings everyday (holdups, etc) more south in Miami. Yet, no one I know except for two friends that is 400 miles away has any guns. Except for law enforcement I never see a gun carried.

[Rhonald]

Robert if you get a chance can you do me a favor? I seen you posted a couple of pictures on your facebook the other day.I'm talking about the picture of the Israel teacher and her students.And the one right bellow it.That had the statistics on it.Thank you I appreciate it.

Now I understand your reason for posting that picture of the statistics Maxx, as it is very compelling. But I am trying to find statitcs that show how many inoccent people are killed by being caught in the crossfire of gang wars, and in turn, how many average, armed citizens came to the defence of those being pinned down.

Sure it is good when a citizen stops rampage killers, but if the statistics show that more guns lead to more inoccent crossfire deaths then stopping of rampage killers, then the poster argument is mote. But I believe that that will be to difficult to come to a fair analysis. I think, in reflection, that an armed citizen is good at defending against random acts of violence ie; rampage killers, rape, robbery, & home invasion; but fail to affect area crime as in turf wars.

[shaun]

Interesting article.  I know it was an off duty cop working security but what if they didn't have a gun to stop them?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/san-antonio-movie-theater-shooting_n_2315139.html

All of the arguments have to many what if's for me.

The other things that concern me is the attitude toward America and our way of life.  It seems that others on this site take great delight in pronouncing judgement on us because of our basic beliefs while holding their own as a greater moral compass.  I don't see other countries being attacked for their fundamental belief.  I think that maybe it is time to draw back some of the boundaries that made this site what it is or was.  It has been a general rule to allow other the latitude of their belief system unless it is the American belief of self protection.

nuf said.

[Robertt S]

These thugs deserve every ounce of lead that grandpa gave them.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2175170/Harrowing-moment-elderly-internet-cafe-goer-guns-robbers-chases-door.html