Author Topic: How to stop being Chinese (in the most Chinese way)  (Read 4038 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Philip

  • Registered User
  • ***
  • Posts: 393
  • Reputation: 11
How to stop being Chinese (in the most Chinese way)
« on: April 03, 2013, 03:41:32 am »
My four-and-a-half month old son is in the process of becoming British. Well, he already is British, having me as a father, but not in the eyes of the Chinese government. Even though he is registered with the British consulate and he has a British passport, that cuts no ice with the Chinese. As far as they are concerned, he is Chinese three times over - born in China, Chinese mother, living in China. Plus, as they do not accept dual nationality, they do not recognize his passport. So, in order to become British and live in China as a British citizen, he must 1, apply for the renunciation of his Chinese nationality (a process which takes about 6 months), get an exit/entry permit to leave China, go to the UK, get a Chinese visa in his British passport, fly back to China, get the visa stamped, hope that the Chinese nationality has been renounced, so that he can apply for a residence permit. By the way, our son has no Hukou - this is deliberate - it makes the changing of nationalities easier, for one thing.
After a few months of PSB (Public Security Bureau) tennis, passing the buck between Chongqing (his place of birth), and Hunan (his mother's Hukou), we finally thought we had it confirmed that he could get both processes started in Hengyang, the nearest large city to my wife's Hukou. Armed with my trawling of blogs and reading of official websites plus my wife's subtle understanding of how local officials work, we embarked on a fact-finding mission to Hunan, to see if we could 1, apply for the renunciation of our son's Chinese nationality, and 2, apply for an exit/entry visa (we know that we can only apply for the visa to start 3 months before we return from our end-of-June to beginning-of-August England trip, but we wanted to get the info early, just in case there were problems. Lucky thing we did.
Last Friday, me, my wife, and our baby flew from Chongqing to Changsha. I love Changsha - it is not trendy enough to be Westernized and not small enough to suffer from too much petty corruption. Love the food, love the contrasts, the river, the people, my wife's interesting friends. It's a city, so you have to watch yourself, but I feel pretty safe there. We stayed there for a couple of nights in a hotel near the station we have been to before, basic, 138rmb a night, took a train to Hengyang on Sunday night, so we could be up bright and early for the PSB in Hengyang on Monday morning (April Fools Day!)
My wife thinks Hengyang is a den of thieves, taxi drivers lynching people who don't pay their extortionate fares, everyone on the make, restaurants short-changing people, pickpockets everywhere. She says they were going to have an international airport like Changsha, but so many people wanted a piece of the action, back-hander-wise, that the idea was scrapped and it went to a smaller Hunan city instead. That is typical. Anyway, it is a difficult place for a foreigner to wander round alone, especially at night. On Monday at 8, we went to the Exit/Entry Police Department to be told that we needed a letter from the little police station in the village close to my wife's home village, and she could take it to the bigger town, which could deal with immigration issues. This was not what we'd been told in those months of trying to get info, but we really shouldn't have been surprised. We only had 2 days before our flight back, so we acted fast. Checked out of the Hengyang hotel (7 Days Inn) at about 10.30, caught a town bus (25 minutes) to the out of town bus station, caught a bus to the big town closest to my wife's Hukou, and grabbed lunch (it was about 1.00 at this point). My wife negotiated a price for a taxi while I hid (this always happens), and we drove about 1 hour to the tiny village police station to get a signed and stamped letter confirming my wife's Hukou. Luckily, there was someone on duty, not sleeping or drinking, and my wife's idea of a 23rmb packet of cigarettes was a real Christmas-come-early for the policeman. We met one of my wife's multitude of cousins in the village, who cooed at the baby, invited us to her house (no time), gave us a bag of soya beans and tried to slip my wife a red envelope for the baby (she is very poor and cannot afford to give us money), so there was a short game of red envelope tossing in and out of the taxi window (my wife won). We rushed back to the town to get to the PSB office just after the afternoon opening, about 3. Not many people there, luckily. This is where the fun started.
In the last couple of years, there was one local officer who had helped my wife get visas to stay with me in Hong Kong. A combination of a meal out in a decent restaurant and some nice perfume and facial products made the difference between her expediting the visa in a few days versus 20 or 30 days. This time, we had another female officer. She was very nice and efficient, and at first, it seemed that she would be happy to just do the job she was paid for. This was the first time she, or anyone else there, had had to process a nationality renunciation before, so she had to read up on it as she was doing it. The clock was ticking, because we had to be out of there the next afternoon to get our early morning Changsha flight on Wednesday. From 3.00 to closing time at 6.30, many trees died, as we photocopied endless documents, the baby's, mine, my wife's, we fingerprinted, signed, discussed, and the police woman, who had been devoting herself exclusively to this Kafkaesque red tape orgy, broke her calm professional exterior with an angry outburst at about 6.15. We stopped at 6.30, hoping to finish quickly in the morning. We checked into the poshest hotel in town, and my wife composed a statement asserting her request for the renunciation of our son's nationality.
The next morning at 8, the police woman was obviously dragging her feet a little bit, and after helping us for the first hour or so, left abruptly, saying she was busy. I was the first one to suggest that she had been got to, probably by her husband the previous night. "What, you're doing all that work for these Americans, and they're not offering you anything?". My wife, having thought that the woman was happy to work for only her wage (because she had said "Don't worry, I'm just doing my job") had to agree that we needed to invite this woman to lunch if we wanted to get this finished by the afternoon. (The station closed for 2 and a half hours for lunch (12-2.30) She came to the restaurant above a cake shop, nicely scrubbed up in civvies, her hair down, looking relaxed and happy. My wife chatted with her about stuff, the woman's university days many years ago when she studied English (thankfully, she's forgotten most of it now). My wife fielded the inevitable question about my monthly wage, as usual pitching it as low as she thinks the person listening will believe. Then, at about 1pm, she got the security guard to open the shutters and we went behind the counter to expedite our application with significantly more speed than earlier on in the day. We wandered around the labyrinthine offices of the police station picking up various forms, then went upstairs to a little room, where it became obvious to my wife that it was time to offer 200rmb ("for you to have a foot massage, as my husband thinks your feet must be tired after helping us"). After more signing forms in quadruplicate, we went downstairs just before afternoon opening time, while she put on her uniform and started "work". She took some photos of the happy family, then we went back upstairs where her superior took photos in his office of all of us (her in the foreground, pen in hand, our little family in the background. ) That was it. We had finished the application. We rushed back on a bus to Hengyang, got a train to Changsha, speed ate a nice meal and collapsed on the hotel bed, ready for a 4am alarm call for the bus to the airport. My wife needs to return to the police woman next month for the exit/entry permit, but that should be much easier.
Small but important footnote: a not-insignificant reason for our success was our beautiful son himself. He will smile at anyone, and he has a wonderful smile, and he makes the most irresistible baby talk. I do not underestimate his influence in nudging things in the right direction. ;)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 04:02:33 am by Philip »

Vince G

  • Guest
Re: How to stop being Chinese (in the most Chinese way)
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2013, 08:30:46 am »
I think I would lose my mind and my patience having to do this. I don't know how you do it. Good luck

Offline Pineau

  • All things considered .....
  • Board Moderator
  • Registered User
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,324
  • Reputation: 21
  • God is great, beer is good, and people are Crazy
    • Youtube
Re: How to stop being Chinese (in the most Chinese way)
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2013, 09:19:46 am »
"that cuts no ice with the Chinese. As far as they are concerned, he is Chinese three times over - born in China, Chinese mother, living in China. Plus, as they do not accept dual nationality, they do not recognize his passport. Is this the LAW or just the opinion of some local creep?

This is a load of crap. He is your kid. He is British. Holds a British passport.  So who cares what the Chinese think? The British Consulate has nothing to say about this?   

 I guess I just don't understand. Why would the British consulate issue a passport to him if there was an issue. Are these "Chinese" immigration officials or just local assholes/trouble makers? Who are "THEY" and what authority do they carry?
Don’t give up when you still have something to give. Nothing is really over until the moment you stop trying.
https://chinaandfriends.shutterfly.com/pictures
http://www.youtube.com/user/gerrypineau/videos
http://youtu.be/zG4eoONlutE

Offline Neil

  • happily married, working on immigration
  • Registered User
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,000
  • Reputation: 5
  • Zhangping, Fujian bound.
Re: How to stop being Chinese (in the most Chinese way)
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2013, 09:29:12 am »
I don't really understand the significance either?  Why the need to force the issue?  I assume it can be done any time in his life, but if you stay in China, will he be able to attend Chinese school, etc? 
...as irresistible as chocolate

Offline Rhonald

  • Ziyan Zhou (Yan)
  • Registered User
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,550
  • Reputation: 11
Re: How to stop being Chinese (in the most Chinese way)
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2013, 01:31:45 pm »
China is a big bureaucracy (meaning all the i's need to be crossed & all the t's dotted), and yes Pineau, China does not accept dual Nationality. Neil I could see why Philip would wish to have his son as seen only as a British Citizen under China's view.

Master Nationality Rule:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/policyandlaw/nationalityinstructions/nisec2gensec/dualnationality?view=Binary

As a father, I too would wish for my son's status to be settled, the sooner the better. And I thank Alex for sharing his trail of trials & tribulations - almost feels like a spy noir - which begs the question: if your son could keep his dual nationality, could we not see that once he comes of age, he could take over for Daniel Craig - Home Office and all!

« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 02:01:53 pm by Rhonald »
Life....It's all about finding the Chicks and Balances

Offline Philip

  • Registered User
  • ***
  • Posts: 393
  • Reputation: 11
Re: How to stop being Chinese (in the most Chinese way)
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2013, 08:15:41 pm »
Is this the LAW or just the opinion of some local creep?

This is a load of crap. He is your kid. He is British. Holds a British passport.  So who cares what the Chinese think? The British Consulate has nothing to say about this?   

 I guess I just don't understand. Why would the British consulate issue a passport to him if there was an issue. Are these "Chinese" immigration officials or just local assholes/trouble makers? Who are "THEY" and what authority do they carry?
Gerry. It's the law. As far as British nationality law is concerned, he is automatically British by descent, and he will always be, because I was born in Britain. His children will not automatically be British, unless they are born there. Anyway, he can take advantage of that right anytime he likes. But that is completely separate from how the Chinese view nationality. My son is default Chinese, which does not cause any problems for him in China. But to leave China for any reason, there are only 2 options: 1. Get an exit/entry permit, which is a one-shot deal, and go through the process I am going through now with the British passport, visa and nationality renunciation or 2. get him a hukou, then a Chinese passport with a UK visa (if the authorities then found you had a British passport as well, they would ask for it to be destroyed).
Neil, school-wise, with the first option, my son has a free place in the international school I work for, so the lack of hukou won't be an issue. For healthcare, paying unsubsidised prices is still pretty inexpensive. For the 2nd option, he could go to a local school for little money, but I wouldn't recommend the Chinese school system.
But ultimately, I had to think about where our family will be living in a few years, as our son grows up, and plan accordingly. We will move to Britain in a few years (God help us!). It could be a wasteland by then, but I will have a little nest egg, he will have better educational and life opportunities there, I will be around will my aging parents, family and friends, and close to our beautiful French house. Also, my 2 stepchildren will be set up in China for university. As a side-note, the more occasions our family can visit the relatives in Britain, the more likelihood of my wife's settlement visa application being successful.
And Ron, this is not really a job for James Bond. This situation more closely resembles scenes from one of the 19th century novels by the French author, Balzac, provincial stories of petty greed and corruption. This is about the Chinese people and their tortuous relationship with money. Most of my wife's family are characters from a 19th century novel, probably by Dickens. I could write a book.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 08:53:48 pm by Philip »

Offline Willy The Londoner

  • Beyond The Dream in China
  • Board Moderator
  • Registered User
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,004
  • Reputation: 36
  • Hair today - gone tomorrow!!
Re: How to stop being Chinese (in the most Chinese way)
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2013, 09:57:04 pm »
You brought back distant memories of traveling around Hunan, especially Hemgyang to get things 'official' things down.  That was my wife's hukou until we bought a home in Zhongshan which thankfully is a bit more cosmopolitan than Hengyang.  But I fully understand the way of life in that province.

Willy
Willy The Lpndoner

Now in my 12th year living here,

Offline Pineau

  • All things considered .....
  • Board Moderator
  • Registered User
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,324
  • Reputation: 21
  • God is great, beer is good, and people are Crazy
    • Youtube
Re: How to stop being Chinese (in the most Chinese way)
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2013, 12:28:26 am »
Sorry I quest your motives. It just didn't make sense to me that the Chinese would overrule a British law.

As for Hunan, I am familiar with the goings on there as well. That is Where Jing is from . I know about and have had occasion to expedite business dealings, paperwork, and official approvals.  A couple cartons of cigarettes, a liter of fine alcohol and an expensive lunch goes a long way toward getting things done.  Swisher sweet Cigars are a favorite there. They are like candy. And it didn't hurt to have relatives in the police and Changsha government administration.
 Sorry for the interruption..... carry on. 
Don’t give up when you still have something to give. Nothing is really over until the moment you stop trying.
https://chinaandfriends.shutterfly.com/pictures
http://www.youtube.com/user/gerrypineau/videos
http://youtu.be/zG4eoONlutE

Offline Rhonald

  • Ziyan Zhou (Yan)
  • Registered User
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,550
  • Reputation: 11
Re: How to stop being Chinese (in the most Chinese way)
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2013, 12:57:14 am »
[And Ron, this is not really a job for James Bond. This situation more closely resembles scenes from one of the 19th century novels by the French author, Balzac, provincial stories of petty greed and corruption. This is about the Chinese people and their tortuous relationship with money. Most of my wife's family are characters from a 19th century novel, probably by Dickens. I could write a book.

Yes I can see the idea you suggest as more appropriate of a setting. My thinking was influenced by reading up upon the Master Nationality Law when one paragraph hinted at the spy scenario:

During the Cold War era, the United States signed consular agreements with certain Warsaw Pact countries providing that a U.S. citizen who entered that country with a U.S. passport and the appropriate visa would not be subsequently treated as a citizen of that country (and hence prevented from leaving).[3] The Warsaw Pact countries involved (notably Poland) wished to encourage tourism from emigrants and their descendants settled in the U.S. Since the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact in 1991, many of those countries have abolished visa requirements for U.S. citizens thus nullifying those provisions (for detailed discussion see under Dual citizenship of Poland).

We have a small town near Calgary called Balzac, and when I researched the name :

A Canadian Pacific Railway station began operating at Balzac in 1910. It was named by William Cornelius Van Horne, then president of the Canadian Pacific Railway, after one of his favourite authors, Honoré de Balzac (1799–1850) a noted French novelist.

You now have me intrigued Alex as I might peruse his prose. Now with my wife learning English, we frequent the library on a regular bases and it has kindled my interst in books. Since I recall Willy bring up the tour de France before in the sporting section, right now I am reading The Secret Race about Tyler Hamilton. A very enjoyable read, I must say about the world of spoke spooks  8)

Keep us in the loop Alex with your on going circut, and soon we hope your problems are resolved with you wearing the yellow Jersey.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 01:20:28 am by Rhonald »
Life....It's all about finding the Chicks and Balances

Offline shaun

  • Registered User
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,504
  • Reputation: 37
Re: How to stop being Chinese (in the most Chinese way)
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2013, 08:24:03 pm »
It's always something!!!!!  :-\