My search

[Martin]

and the card ( in case I just wanted to go to Canada)

Why wouldnt you want to come to Canada??? I am surprised that everyone doesnt have a passport just for this occasion.

I am one of those that Maxx was talking about. I got married on my first trip over. Succesfully married, succesfully brought to Canada, and succesfully divorced a very short time after. Everything always looks good in theory, but reality is something very different.

[Willy The Londoner]

Chinese women on the whole marry for security when it comes to foreigners.  Love often comes second but it comes then what a second that is. 

I was fortunate in that I was able to come to China for 6 weeks and with a week I had established a base and had rented an apartment.  I was in a position where I did not have to converse by any other mean than face to face.  I was able to meet and build a relationship with my now wife over several months before we finally married.

Long distance romances are very difficult that is something you will have to adjust to.  Your first thought of your lady going to the USA on a fiance visa has now gone by the board. She will only marry you in China before leaving.  That means that like others you need to be prepared for anything up to two years for her to obtain a visa to join you in the USA.  A large percentage from the USA on this forum have gone that way and there will be lots of advice along the way.

As Maxx said, think twice about getting married on your first trip. The record for those rushing from plane to marriage office is not very good.

The most important thing is do not tell a Chinese lady that you have more than you have, Do not exaggerate your wealth , your job prospects, your home prospects. If  you live in rented accommodation then do not say you own it. ( I have met men here who have told women they have thousands in there pocket when they have just a few dollars there). The women want you to be honest with them.

They find out later that your lied or your job is not as secure as you say then you could join the list of failed relationships.

On other thing.  I believe that when you came on here  first I seem to recall you mentioned they were with an agency. If that is the case have you discussed with her any possible payment to the agency of any success fee?

Willy

[Rhonald]

The most important thing is do not tell a Chinese lady that you have more than you have, Do not exaggerate your wealth , your job prospects, your home prospects. If  you live in rented accommodation then do not say you own it...... The women want you to be honest with them.

Willy

And even being Honest with them is not totally fail safe. A common mentality of many Chinese on the weakness of being Honest has to be accounted for. My coworker, 60 years old from main land China, has been living here for 5 years, mentioned how it took him 3 years to understand the Western concept on Honesty compared to his Chinese view.

During my 6 months writting to my wife I was open with how my finaces were, and the state of dealing with the house I lived in when it came time to resolve my divorce to my 1st wife. Once married and my subsequent trips I explained how things stood. For 3 years sending money monthly & taking a couple of trips every year, my debt increased and all was explained.

Once she came here, we have had a couple of times were money and other issues have come up. Her typical response when confronted with my answer is, " No believing you."

If TRUST is an issue, then I feel marriage is on shaky ground. Thus feeling hurt, I would talk with my Chinese coworker for him to help mediate. He told me that the Chinese view is that you never tell the whole truth. It is almost like playing poker were bluff is part of the game. He also mentioned that for the Chinese to tell someone that they do not believe them (ie: lying) is not as big of an issue as we would view it.For them - everyone lies sometimes, so why the big deal. Just as common as they are in telling someone - you are fat, they will also say - I no believing you.

Maybe this mentality comes part and parcel with a bargaining society where no price is fixed and no revelled truth is what is claimed as. It would be intersting to here what other long time married members have experienced in this. At least it allows me to better understand my wife, doesn't make it easy, but at least I don't jump the gun too early when I am told she does not believe me.

[David E]

Gee Ron...

I think it would take 10 pages just to scratch the surface of the relationship between truth and fiction and face when it comes to the Chinese Cultural makeup...!!

My take on it...and it is ONLY my opinion, gleaned from nearly 3 years of marriage and from watching and participating in the interactions of Ming and her friends and aquaintances.

Truth to my Wife is an elastic commodity...it can stretch and shrink at will, dependant on the situation. Most importantly, the absolute, honest truth MUST be avoided at all times where there is an issue of "face" involved.

After all, once you have spoken the truth on an issue, you have nowhere to go...in her mind she then is trapped forever and cannot escape any consquences of that truth if ultimately it leads to a loss of face.

I am convinced that much of what she says and hears from all around with her Chinese mates is the constant weaving of partial truths into normal reality, without exposing herself...and everybody else is playing the same game, so nobody gets upset !!!

Contrast this with the "Western" model where truth is a recognised and important commodity and there you have a potential for Cultural conflict. I used to get infuriated by this apparent inability of Chinese people to actually tell things in black or white...not infinite shades of grey. But then I slowly got to understand that it is simply their way of trying to get by with a version of the truth that leaves them the ability to preserve face whatever happens down the line. This is normal for them and from Ming's perspective she was always puzzled whrn I challenged her on the "half-truths" that get bandied around her circle of friends...and occasionally with me...

Of course, there are some things that cannot be supported in a downright lie...as was mentioned by Willy...to tell an abolute lie about your income/assets/prospects will eventually lead to her finding out about it (inevitable) and thus lead to a loss of face on your part (terminal).  Husbands can NEVER lose face....she will move Heaven and Earth to avoid this outcome...but if you are stupid enough to put your head in that noose of deception, it wont only be an arguement that results when you are exposed (as it would be in a more conventional Western relationship), it will be a real disaster when her Husband loses face by being found out in a whopping lie to her...because she in turn will lose face with her family/friends/aquaintances when they find out about it....because she will have passed many versions of the facts about you on to all these people....thats what gave her the face in the first place...and now you have taken it away with the lies....everybody loses........watch out !!!!!!!!!!

[RobertBfrom aust]

David E , I concur with your brief  summary of the rules to play with , as I think most will agree what is to be done tomorrow can change right up until the 12 th hour whether it be girlfriend or wife , how boring it would be to actually plan and do something on the planned day ha ha , but if one goes with the flow it means happy wife = happy life , regards Sujuan and Robert .

[Martin]

David E, I love what you wrote. I hope everyone will read this, to show just one of many different ways that culturally, we are very different from those we intend to marry. It takes a lot of patience and understanding from both sides to make a marriage work.

From my personal experience, there were little white lies, and then bigger lies. What disturbed me, was the ease to which lying happened. Maybe it was to save face, but in my opinion, when I know that she was lying to me, didn't this take face away from her?  Maybe she thought she was saving face, but to me, it looked sneaky, deceptive, and showed little regard for me and what I thought. Or maybe, I shouldn't even say anything, because maybe my situation was more unique.

Anyways, while I do get what you are saying, the Chinese woman should also be realizing that lying is not always a great practice, and while we, the western men are trying to accept things like this as part of her culture, she should also be trying to learn that it is not a part of ours.

[David E]

Now...The other side of that coin !!!!.....

In trying to understand how the "average" Chinese mind works via my observation of Ming/freinds/family etc on the issue of Truth, I cannot say I was or am really comfortable with the undercurrent of deception that her Culture promotes.

We have had several stormy debates on the issue of truth, and I am slowly making headway with getting her to change. I feel that this change in her is important and necessary....not only for my sake, but to ensure that SHE makes some changes that will better fit the Western or "Aussie" model...it makes for an easier life for all !!! After all, she has chosen to live here with me and she has to make some Cultural changes as I and the rest of us have had to make in trying to assist her integration. I was not happy to simply have a Chinese wife who totally retained all of her Chinese characteristics whilst those around her had to change their attitudes and perceptions...thats not equitable or reasonable.

However, teaching Chinese people about compromise, changing and adoption of different mindsets is not an easy job !!! They are a very intractable bunch and we see all around us in Perth the results of that intractability....enclaves of Chinese people who wont/dont want to integrate fully into Aussie society. And that aint good....

Most of Mings friends dont like/have NOT tried Western food and yet they say it is awful.. They dont like/have not tried to make Western friends and yet openly criticise Western ways of dealing with life...especially truth and money !!!

I have made it clear to Ming that being married to me, and living in Aus is a 2 way Street....I will go out of my way at all times to help her integrate and enjoy her life here, but I wont tolerate her simply remaining as a Chinese person who happens to live in Perth.

At least I can speak with some authority on this subject, because there are many Brit migrants here who will never integrate, they simply are British people who live in Perth...I am a British Migrant and I did not wish to forever live outside of the real Aussie Culture...so I changed...and so can she !!!

We will see....

[David E]

Martin

If I can make an attempt to answer your specific question about lying...here is my take on it.

If your wife tells you a little/middle/big lie, she will do it to either put you off the trail of the real issue (deception), hope the lie answers your question without rocking the boat (rationalisation), tells a lie to shut you up (contempt) or tells a lie because she dare not tell the truth (fear of consequence)

Whatever the situation she is safe UNTIL she is found out. This is where loss of face gets serious. But she is able to recover from this situation by yet further lies...and so it goes on and on. Until the whole package gets to the "blow-up-in-your-face" mode then the charade can continue. Once it gets to massive confrontation, face is blasted and often it is a terminal outcome

get my drift

Cheers...David

[fivetrout]

It seems to me that I will have two approaches if this is the case with most Chinese women.
 "Yes dear" or "haha, that's a good one!" Maybe even..."you're so cute when you fib".

[Willy The Londoner]

At least I can speak with some authority on this subject, because there are many Brit migrants here who will never integrate, they simply are British people who live in Perth...I am a British Migrant and I did not wish to forever live outside of the real Aussie Culture...so I changed...and so can she !!!

We will see....

I think I must get to Perth to see this.

David E running around with corks dangling from his hat. Blowing on his 'didjery do' all day and maybe hunting the odd crocodile.

But even my imagination cannot get round him 'Waltzing Matilda' and watching his 'Billy Bong Boil'.

Willy

[maxx]

I guess I had better step into this.As far as I know.My wife has never lied to me.She is straight up about anything and everything.She is not afraid to say what is on her mind.Even if somebodies feelings are going to get hurt.When we First got together.She wouldn't tell me the whole story.But that changed withen a couple of months.

I've watched my wife around other Chinese people here in the states.It takes her awhile to make friends.She has to talk to other Chinese for months before.They know anything about her.Or her family.

When me and my wife started this thing.She would be talking to another Chinese person.And they would start off telling her.How bad I was going to treat her.It happened on a train in China.The airport in San Fransisco.And a Chinese restaurant in NM.When none of the bad things these people said would happen.She started distancing herself from them.So that maybe why.She never tells me lies.And why she is so closed off to other Chinese.

I know 2 Chinese woman.That own different Chinese restaurants.They are both married to Chinese men.And both have kids.The restaurant owner in bloomfield NM.It took her about 3 weeks to talk to me.We go to her restraint every Saturday.The first time we walked into the restaurant.The owner came to the table.And started talking to my wife.They talk and giggle all the time.The other women and her husband own a restaurant in Albuquerque NM.It took her 5 years.To talk to me without saying something nasty.Now she acts like my best friend.We go to Albuquerque about once a month.

So in short I think it is just a integration thing.My wife doesn't see me act like a Chinese guy.So she doesn't act like a Chinese woman.And since I have proved to her so called friends here in the states.And in China.That I don't act like a Chinese person.They don't have anything bad to say anymore.

Just my 2 cents on this.I've never experienced it.So I mite be in left field on this.

[David E]

Yep...saw that one coming William !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can tell the dyed-in-the-wool Poms here quite easily, they walk around in brown leather sandals with socks......and continually complain about the quality of the fish and chips...and how awful it is that they cant get a pint of warm bitter.... and that everything in UK is better than Aus.

Why the Hell they stay I dont know, maybe its the endless sunshine, $3000 per week wages, blue skies and white beaches...but I wouldnt know about that.

I just did not want to be in that club, so I don my cork hat, blow on the old didgeridoo and what I do with my Bong is none of your business,,,

[RobertBfrom aust]

Willy , the trick in Perth is to walk around with a spade in your hand , in the countryside [ you have to drive about 20 km ] dig a hole and retire on your findings , could be oil , gas , gold , iron ore ,uranium , diamonds or if you are really lucky sand , we have all the water on the East side ha ha .

David E , me tinks that Sujuan and Ming are both workaholics , whilst we try to relax and wait for the next surprise , regards Robert .

[David E]

Yes Robert, it is a real problem for us here. I have stopped bushwalking a long time ago...I was fed up with stubbing my toe on those pesky gold nuggets lying around.

And if the nuggets dont get you, the Red-backs, Huntsmans, Fire ants, Snakes, Scorpions and crazed Poms in sandals will 

However, bit difficult to get excited about gold nuggets and diamonds when you are dying of thirst.
Typically, you Eastern Staters pinched all our water and grow fat on our Mining Royalties....come the revolution !!!!!!

Cheers...David AKA Sandgroper.,

[JustJim]

Getting back to the subject at hand.....   my search.....

I am making tentative plans to go to China.  I am thinking that two weeks is too long and that one week is not long enough and that ten days doesn't work because I won't be able to fly in and out on the cheap days....Tues, Wed, Thurs...

I have come up with Tues Sept 24 and then returning on Thursday Oct 3.  My flight in will arrive Thursday morning and then next week it will leave Thursday evening.  That gives me an actual week in China.

That also means two weeks off from work.  Any longer in China and I will have to take more time off. 

One whole week seems like enough.  Any thoughts?   My idea is that if everything goes well I will try to get back as soon as possible.  Trying to accomplish everything in two weeks just doesn't seem like it will happen.

I have more questions...like how much money I should have for a week long stay?  I do not plan on doing any shopping.  That's not me.  I am sure that I will attempt to treat someone to dinner - whether or not they will let me is another subject.  Your thoughts?