Just when........

[LP]

I too will stay out of the religious aspect of all of this and remind all of you to remember what happen to JOHN1964 and his wife..I too have had some problems with my soon to be wife and I have done what Maxx has said about the  needing a intervention.And I know she will probably get it from her family when she goes back to China.My soon to be mother in-law helps me out on the problems I have with Sammy...I am a black man on the forum and the problem I have with some Chinese people is that they tend to believe all the things they are told without checking it out them self. Try this For Example all black are violent people and drug dealer,they are not good English teachers etc etc.They see this on TV and movies and think we all are the same.Sammy have hear this from day one of us being together.Yes we have heard stories of the lady being told things behind her husband's back that aren't true, usually by some other broken Chinese woman.The thing I love about Sammy is if some Chinese person tell her something bad about me she come and tell me everything that was said and boy she is every mad at that person and want to do something about it.I remember one time she hear a women in the supermarket call me the N word in Chinese, she stop what she was doing and said to me this woman call you the N word.She was going to  fight her right there.I said to her let it go, it's not worth it.David you have religious,people are using to take the two of you apart I have being black...How can we guard against something like these? Is there any answer?Yes!!!talk,talk, and more talking to them.From what I hear you are one of the more highly educated ones on this forum..This should be a cake walk for you...

[Pineau]

I really want to jump in here and give your lady a good verbal lashing. But because I am super sensitive  over what a woman can do to a man I don't think I could control myself.  She may profess to love you until the end of time but it is really until the end of the marriage is in sight. And if she is listening to her friends now just wait until they start advising her about divorce settlements. Maybe you think I am sill and cold hearted about this but I have watched a good wife of 10 years turn into a vampire at the mention of divorce.

You are way to old to start over and be sentimental. This marriage has been slowly disintegrating  for the past few months.  Sorry pal but protect yourself. I hope I am all wrong/.

[fivetrout]

David, I'm on the fence with this one. Usually I'm a hardliner and will put up with no crap, thanks to previous manipulating women in my life. Life's lessons well learned and scars earned. Hong would cite culture and traditions to make her points. I would counter with reason and sensibility as most of the world functions. But you have 3 years invested, and you should know each other very well by now. Sure some of Hong's friends are feeding her garbage, but she trusts her husband, fueled by love. So far she has always stood by me. Your wife's bizarre behavior is of great concern. How's does one counter punch when left flat footed? She is your wife, friend, and intimate partner...and you get dumbfounded this way? You should be close enough to talk about anything.

[David E]

Hi Guys

Thanks for all the words of consolation and advice...all have been taken on-board 

I guess part of the problem centres around her dilemma (compounded by difficulty in verbalising such a complex issue with still-limited language resource) in trying to contemplate religious debates with an Aethiest !!!!....I do empathise with her on that point, but I have never interferred with her Buddhist practices because it is a very benevolent path to follow, in fact before she had her license I would drive her to her Temple every week and wait for her to do what she needed to do. It never was an issue for me. In fact, she would not even use fly spray for flies and mossies, I had to do all that, even take the snails from the garden and release them in the local Park !!!!

And it is not difficult to imagine that the powerful skills of these Born again nutters, intensely schooled by the Church Principals, wreaking poweful and evocative emotions in a fellow Chinese person. To her, the issue quickly became an "us or them", and "black or white". Possibly if I was say a Protestant, or even an Agnostic she would have found it easier to get me involved much more early in the "Brainwashing"...with a better chance of gently getting common sense to prevail.

I have calmly and gently advised her on the REAL consequences of her decision....facts which were never canvassed by the scaleys.

Her Son is scheduled to come to Aus to do University as a Foreign Student...which costs a squillion...that now goes out the window, because she can only get  a low paid job in her own right. So he will be condemmed to a low quality life for evermore....also, how can she continue to provide the money that I send to him every month so he can continue his schooling in China...his Bio-father wants nothing to do with him, he is too busy with his new Child-Bride !!!........she went very pale when THAT subject came up in our discussion !!!!!!

The Australian Family law provides for my protection as there are no biological children involved and she has made no financial contribution to the assets and cash flow in the Legally short marriage...quite the contrary. So she cant have 50% of my assets to continue the good life.....she will just get a nominal lump sum for "companionship and household duties" ...and whatever this sum is assessed at, I will fight it in the Courts with vigour...as is my right. Probably take at least 5 years to resolve. Meanwhile she has to get an apartment...not cheap, a job, not easy, other than the most menial and low paid stuff that no Aussie will do...as most of the Scaleys have found out already.

Pineau, I dont know if our basic mariage has been disintegrating for a while...at least I did not get this view. But maybe you are right, but it alters little about the scenario as it exists today.

Let me just say that in my experience (shared evidently by some of the comments here ) jealousy is alive and rampant amongst Chinese people, maybe the scaleys were uber-jealous and this is their way of bringing her down to their level on the fraudulent promise of a wonderful life in the hereafter, compared to eternal hell fire if she stays with me ?

Her flight leaves Perth on Tuesday at 1.05 am......we will see what transpires between now and then.

Cheers...David

[Martin]

It's none of my business really, and if you don't want to answer, I respect that, but if she goes to China, and realizes the error of her ways, would you be willing to take her back?

[Willy The Londoner]

I think that we all admire you David for the way that you have dealt with this is a methodical and clear manner.  You have set out quite clearly here what you have done and said since this problem came to light.

I am not a Catholic but think that if she had spoken to an experienced Parish Priest that he would have put her right on the matter.  The problem is she has been got at by newly fledged Christians in college and even in the Bible these are described as the worst kind to give advice and that they should refrain from doing so. Simply because they do more harm than good. 

I have never been married before now and having only been married for 4 years I am a fledgeling myself when it comes to marriage advice but I see one problem ahead and I have no doubt that you have thought about it long and hard. That is if she does have second thoughts about getting on that plane then you will always have the nagging doubt that it was for the elevated lifestyle she has enjoyed since getting to Aus and the other financial facts rather than wanting to be with you in a loving relationship.

No doubt you have already made an educated decision on this.

You know that we are all here for you as a listening post for any rants or rages or anything else you wish to impart.

Willy

[Arnold]

David, as I see your marriage... you have endured several low blows not only from your Wife but also her Son too. You have done what most Men would have done with a "New" bride, stick it out. Now you have reached (or been pushed to) the end of an (could have been) wonderful Life for both (3) of you. Any Man has his limit's and I feel you have come to an certain point, you don't want/deserve such treatment after giving her all you got to give. Qing and I talked about your situation, you know what she firstly mentioned... that she "Must" be one of little education (thus easy to influence by others) to see the great Life (if you are the great/nice Man we see here) you can and will provide not only for her, but also her Son. Qing also said, it is the Culture imprinted into her and it will not/never change. Only if it's too late and she had time (lots of it) will she see what she's lost. Kind of Childish really on her part, so I might give her one more chance (even an Ultimatum if necessary)... you have done your part period!

[JustJim]

I wish I had words of wisdom to add to all the great comments given here, but I can't come up with anything.  I just want you to know that I am thinking about your situation and that I hope it resolves for you in a way which is good for you.

[Vince G]

I am not sure if I can give advice to David? We seem to have the same way of thinking. I am going through a similar situation. On a date site that has blogs & chats. A few months ago I met a Indonesian woman. She started it, I was minding my business. We talk everyday, always in touch and have gotten very close. What pops up every now and then is something troublesome.. she is Muslim. She has asked a few times if I would convert? for it seems it is a sin to be with or marry a non-muslim?

First let me say as a little side note. She is 18 yrs younger then I and very beautiful as well as educated and business owner. Other men have told her they would convert? But I have stood my ground and gave my feelings on it. I had told her (David take note) Do you want me to Lie to you and betray our relationship and convert? I won't do it.

So David, I would make these points to the wife. If she's still not listening then leave her a letter to read. Points being if you jumped off that cliff into the water how would she be saved by this? You jumping into the water to die when she is still alive? This is suicide and a sin in the catholic religion. Abandoning the husband is also a sin. And then if she wants you to lie and deceive her? Say you won't. Tell her you will keep her safe from harm and care for her for her life and that is why you feel she is doing wrong by converting.

Wish you luck

[JohnB]

Vince “.. she is Muslim. She has asked a few times if I would convert? for it seems it is a sin to be with or marry a non-muslim? 
First let me say as a little side note. She is 18 yrs younger then I and very beautiful as well as educated and business owner. Other men have told her they would convert? But I have stood my ground and gave my feelings on it. I had told her (David take note) Do you want me to Lie to you and betray our relationship and convert? I won't do it.” 

Vince, I'd do it; likewise, not convert. Florida must be very boring compared to Indonesia. I think your life would become very, very interesting. Something of new cannon fodder for this forum. I do not think a Muslim wife is of mention of anyone but you.

[JohnB]

When Jing 1st arrived in the States, I introduced her to the near- by Spokane Chinese community...a few hundred that meet every 2nd Sunday
of each month, in a Church. In retrospect, I was of the assumption based much on the wordage of this forum that Chinese have an easy time
integrating with their own. Anywhere. It never dawned on me that this would have the opposite affect on Jing. In addition to this once- a- month
meeting there are the usual get togethers of much smaller groups of Chinese. It was like maybe at the 3rd go or so, it didn't take long, that Jing
was accosted by a few of these women. Christian soldiers. In Mandarin. It shook Jing to her core.
In my opinion, brow beating evangelists/ fundamentalists are the ilk of the civilized world.
Does not matter if they are Christian or Muslim.

Back to Jing. She is unwilling to change for change's sake. Unwilling to adapt so readily, I think the local Chinese community impatient with their new
recalcitrant prospects, or maybe Jing is a slow learner afterall.
In retrospect, think of it this way, the only Western man close to Chinese assimilation is Willy. Still, he has not shaved his head, dressed in orange robes
and white sneakers, or drives a taxi. Well, I suppose his mandarin is improving. Western men do not do...assimilate. Or maybe, Willy is 'difficult'.

I think China must have been built on consensus. Any hope of an independent thinking wife may be a few years down the road.
Jing does not think selfish Chinese any longer. Jing realizes she is a very proud China woman but understands not all things China are good. So time on
experience is my ally with Jing.
It is a long & frustrating road to navigate but I will not change a thing. Just my perseverance as it stretches itself out.

QQ is Jing's bible to the western world. Amazing what QQ influence has on Jing. It can be brutal or can be good. It depends on which forum she is
plugged into. For us, as their Western husbands/ boyfriends, whatever, for us to sit at the computer & try as best we can...it is a difficult scenario to present,
of just what are our wife's thoughts, based on what we, as foreign husbands think. There is no cookie cutter approach to problem resolution.

[Vince G]

Florida is boring and part of the "Bible Belt". Which mean every weekend you get a different christian social group knocking at the door. Here they target the Hispanics for some reason?  I have thought of checking Indonesia but it is  a far cry from my way of living? So maybe just a visit. I have seen some chinese women have Muslim listed as their religion. Not sure how well they are now after the car bomb in T-sq? Besides I can't see dropping a relationship over religion. It's not a sin with God. It's a man made rule. All of it is in every religion.

Just hope David's wife doesn't realize the mistake after it's to late.

[David E]

Thanks again Guys for the help and advice.

There have been many good points canvassed, and much for me to contemplate.

There have been new developments in the last few days, but first let me respond to those of you who have been kind enough to get involved in MY little problem.....a special thanks to those PM's (you know who you are) offering help and advice....you all cannot imagine how it feels at this time to have so many people in my corner 

I guess, in summary, I am old enough to have lived a life full of wonderful things, and full of various crisis along the way...its a function of growing old. There is very little in the way of crisis that will unhinge me..........hurt, yes, disappointed, yes, angry, yes...but destroyed...NEVER !!

Vince.......changing religion must only be done from dep wothin our heart...never to satisfy an external condition, in that I agree with you. I cannot see me changing my "religion" just to stop a woman leaving...that would betray one of the rocks on which I have built my life. And to even contemplate changing from an Aethiest (just as important to me as your various religions are to all of you) would be similar to the thought of removing my testicles without anaesthetics with a rusty razor-blade) !!!!!!!!! To change from a Aethiest to a Muslim...well I have no words to describe this...it defies the definition of madness.

Having said that, I CAN contemplate the thought of living with and loving a woman who had a different religious view to mine.....been there , done that...Mings Buddhism was never and issue and if she truly and passionately wants to be a Catholic, then I could deal with it in turn, provided that her conversion did not include me as a condition, which is NOT the case put forcibly to her by the Scaleys.

To Arnold and Quing...Ming is highly qualified...by Chinese standards...she has a Degree from Beijing Uni in Electrical Engineering....a 4 year degre no less. However, I also did a lot of Physics and Engineering stuff as part of my first degree which was in Chemistry and I was surprised to discover that Ming could not explain Ohms Law, or Faraday's or any other fundamental fact on which Electrical Engineering is based. So I dont think her qualification is worth diddly in Aus (neither does the Aus Education system...hence her need to go back to College to update...which was where she met the Scaleys)

So I concede, like most Chinese women she is really street-smart where money and daily living stuff is concerned, but has a very limited knowlege or interest in more fundamental life situations requiring deep levels of self- analysis and interaction with different and unique external perspectives....but I knew that and was ready for it....I was not looking for a female version of Einstein...just a warm, happy and loving woman...I was happy to handle all the other hard stuff !!!

Addded to that (which has been so correctly stated in this thread)...QQ and all opinions coming from Chinese persons are ALWAYS true...even when they are rubbish and totally contradictive of what I or any Western Person might say.....and that is probably the biggest problem we all face in this situation...it takes a loooooong time to overcome this basic frustration.

Enough rambling........down to reality ....

I asked her to tell me the name of the Church so that we could both go along to see the Head Priest and get the view "from the top" as to what he (and the Pope) thought about Catholics convertees who had an existing husband with no religion....was it acceptable, would she burn in hell....I hoped that he would bring a more rational perspective to the whole issue ( mmmmm ...that's an oxymoron...a rational catholic Priest). I learned that she was dealing with a Private Church (did you ever hear of such a thing) and that she had to communicate directly with these Scaleys...and get this...MONEY had changed hands for her to buy a "Platinum" ticket to heaven................followed by a promotion to a "Diamond" ticket if she got me to convert and also pay some more MONEY.

Now I am busily engaged on a vigorous, vicious, balls to the wall, no holds barred pursuit of these SCAMMERS...I will make their life a living Hell for evermore..........they have no idea what horror is coming up the slope.

Watch this space.......

[Arnold]

  Ticket's to Heaven? I heard of one way tickets to Mars, but this takes the Cake without question!
Man, if I was near your City.. I'd join you to kick some ass with these Bastards. Fight one Scam and here comes the next...

[shaun]

You might check to see if the roots of this religion leads to Ada, Michigan.   It sounds more like Amway than a religion.


Calling them scam artists rather than Christians would be more accurate.  One can't buy their way to heaven via Platinum, Diamond, or a good lager.