Becoming British (part 1963)

[Philip]

For those of you who have been following my 21 month-old son's journey towards the official Chinese recognition of my son's British citizenship, you may be interested to know that we are on the last leg.

My son, Erwan, was born in November 2012, here in Chongqing. Because I am British, my son is automatically British according to the UK authorities.  But because he was born in China to a Chinese mother, and lives in China, this makes him default Chinese nationality 3 times over, according to the Chinese authorities. It has taken the best part of 2 years to make him British in Chinese eyes. As you may know, China does not accept dual nationality, so you have to be one thing or the other. My wife and I chose British nationality for him mainly because we would prefer him to be educated in the UK. The Chinese education system does not encourage critical thinking, creativity or independent learning skills.
The process of making him British in Chinese eyes has been tortuous, to say the least. After months of bureaucracy, bribery, bemusement, bafflement, and bloody-minded determination (described in another thread), we have finally reached the last hurdle.
In June, we went to the UK to apply for an S1 (family visit) Chinese visa in Erwan's UK passport. It was the first time the visa officer had ever seen a document renouncing Chinese nationality, and he wasn't sure if the Chinese embassy in London would grant my son a visa. If they hadn't we would have been royally fucked. It would have meant my son couldn't have returned to China. My wife would have had to return to China, and I would have to give up my Chinese job to stay in the UK with my son.
With immense relief, he was granted the visa, and now we are just waiting for the local Public Security Bureau in Chongqing to convert his visa to a residence permit, so his status will be just like mine. The residence permit works just like a one year multi-entry visa, which just gets renewed every year, and can be done here, without leaving China.
So all is well. My family has moved to a bigger apartment (rent paid by my school). My job is fulfilling and rewarding. I have just bought a new car (impossible to do before on UK wages, taxes and bills). And people are more accepting of babies than has been my experience in the UK.

[Willy The Londoner]

Well Alex, Things have certainly moved on since we had that dinner in London 5 years ago!

One more hurdle down and I am pleased for you and your family.

They should soon to be able to increase the residence permit to at least two years a time.

I hope things do go smoothly from now on.

Willy

[maxx]

Good Job Alex. I would of thought that the U.K. would of granted your boy citizenship just because of your citizenship. And China wouldn't raise a fuss. It looks like you have it all figured out.So good luck and best wishes.

[David E]

My wife and I chose British nationality for him mainly because we would prefer him to be educated in the UK. The Chinese education system does not encourage critical thinking, creativity or independent learning skills.

Alex

Congrats on finally wading through the beaurocracy and winning your battle !!

I can fully understand and endorse your wish to have your Son educated outside of the Chinese system. I have a living, working model in my pesky step-son as to why the Chinese system is severely broken.
He has "achieved" a High School leaving Certificate, with marks in all his subjects in the mid to high 90% 's...so by their standard he would be reasonably well educated to this stage of his life...and he boasts of getting this result as if he is some sort of budding genius.

But...by our standards here, he has no real ability to learn, has no critical thinking ability and has no motivation, drive or curiosity to explore learning. His achievements to date have been all by rote learning, learning whole text books by heart and thus being able to answer the specific questions posed in these texts. Move a millimetre outside of this and he totally flounders, he has not the sligtest intrinsic understanding of that which he has learned.

The tests he is forced to undertake here to certify where he is at within the Aussie education system puts him way, way down into Primary School !!!

His natural arrogance and his slavish belief that he knows everything will work heavily against him when (and if) he enters the Aussie education system.....other than that, I can see a productive career awaits him washing dishes in a Chinese Restaraunt !!!!!!!!!!!

[CypherDragon]

But...by our standards here, he has no real ability to learn, has no critical thinking ability and has no motivation, drive or curiosity to explore learning. His achievements to date have been all by rote learning, learning whole text books by heart and thus being able to answer the specific questions posed in these texts. Move a millimetre outside of this and he totally flounders, he has not the sligtest intrinsic understanding of that which he has learned.

Sadly, the US system is becoming the same way...teaching to the test, not teaching how to learn and think critically, or applying what you have learned. It's sad really, since it's happening so fast I can see it.

Oh and on-topic, congrats Philip!

[JohnB]

DavidE,
I think it safe to say, many of the world's young people eagerly pursue a
university education outside their native country.

I was enjoying the merits of a German beer garden in Freising Germany and
one of the conversations was about American education. Given the issues we
Americans think we have with our K12 schools (too insular), our universities are a highly sought 
education that pursue critical thinking.

What I say is that I think there is hope for your step- son. If he opens his eyes & lets
some light into his mind.
 

[maxx]

I think it is UCLA  in California,60% of the student population is Asian. Fort Lewis college in Durango Colorado. is probably about 5% Asian. Fort Lewis is just a small reginal college but it draws students from all over the world.

The little hick town I live in. Is covered with weeds and sand. Where drugs and alcohol addiction run rampant. Yet they have one of the highest rated school system in the nation. My oldest son graduated high school in Ozark Ark. He earned a  full ride scholershipe to a university in Ark. So did my only daughter, In my son's graduating class of 300 students. They had 11 valor Victorians.

You all make fun of my spelling and punctuation. I graduated high school in 1986.In a school system that was only interested in passing the student without helping them. Times have changed.3 of my kids are honor students. The other 2 don't go to school yet.

I think the school system in the states has gotten better. Because before they were just looking for a paycheck. Now the parents and students demand better. And they have gotten better teachers. Who give a shit and are not there just to collect a paycheck.

I think that is why America draws more international students. Because the individual student is not a number anymore. Just for the sake of a argument. I have talked to a few international students. I have talked to more then a few who went to school in England.So that tells me. That England has also upped there game.

[Willy The Londoner]

I had a very scant education.  I was intelligent enough to stay in the top level in each year at school but that intelligence stopped when at 15 years and one day of age I walked out of school on a Friday and started my first job on the following Monday.

I had no idea how 'important' examine results were!  These were neither things discussed in our family and I never heard anything in their favour from teachers. My parents main concern was struggling to supply the needs of 5 growing children.  Going to University was never an option for us working class kids!   The highest echelons in my days was going to Grammar School. 

But when I look back 57 years to that day then what would I have done with examination results that I have not done in my life.  In honesty probably less.   I have traveled the World and seen and done things that I probably would never have done.  My life has been interesting to say the least.

With examine under my belt  I would have probably found a a good job and settled down with a wife and family at an early age and the life that I have experienced would not have been.

I do not down cry higher education but my ambitions at a young age were self reliance. I have no idea about parents wanting their kids to do well as I never had any to fret over  but judging by my nieces and nephews and friend's reaction to their children's education it seems that the 'bragging rights' could be more important that the education itself!

It seems that education anywhere is more the parents concern that the child's.

The ramblings of an old man may!

Willy

[maxx]

The thing when you have kids is you want them to do better then you. The key to that now is a education. I grew up in a working class family. My father had a sixth grade education. He thought as soon as you were old enough to walk. You were old enough to work. And we did. At 4 I was working pigs. At 7 I was hauling firewood down the mountains. At 9 he stuck a shovel in my hand. And I shoveled sawdust from dawn to dusk. At 17 I left home and have never ben back. He was always broke.at 8 years old they shut the water off.AT 9 years old they shut the gas off.

In the 1970s and 1980s in the U.S it was real easy to get a job. You didn't need a good education. But what you did need was enough education to know. That you need money to start your own business.

It is now 2014. And a good education is the key to a good job. I look at the job boards about every other day here. So lets say out of the 100 jobs I look at. Maybe ten of them don't require a degree of some kind.4 of the jobs I'm qualified for. Require A commercial drivers License. Witch I can't get in the state of New Mexico. Because of my age of 46.If I had kept my commercial License current when I had it at 28 I would of ben ok. But I let it lapse. Because it is expensive in New Mexico to keep it current every 2 years. The other 6 jobs pay minnumum wage. And every high school drop out grabs those jobs quick.

So go back to school get a degree. While I'm getting a degree. Who is going to pay the bills.

Kids do way you down. Clothes med, dental, food ,housing, Stuff to further there education. If your thinking about making a life changing move. You have to think about them. In the U.S the government will give you 1,500 per year per kid up to three kids. Then it drops to a grand. It doesn't come close to covering the expenses of one kid for a year. The payback for having kids is them. They remined you every day how much. They bring to your life.

[maxx]

Sorry man computer thing again. So Willy I think that you have missed out on the greatest adventure in life Kids. They make you mad. You want to sell them every other day. They smell funny. They scream and holler. They through fits in public. Bad enough to make you want to just walk away and tell people that they are not your kids.

Then one day you come into the house. And here comes the little monsters. All smiles and gigells. They tell you of there  acomplishments for the day. They show you really bad art. That you know that they tried there hardest on. You see the joy in there faces. with the simpelest act of kindness from somebody. You see the joy as they figure something out. Kids tell great stories with grand adventures. As long as there is somebody who will listen

I have been to most of Asia. I told my stories of what I did and what I seen to my kids and wife. It was ok. Doing it by myself. It is much better having the kids and my wife along so that they can see what I see. And do the things that I have done.

My stories and adventure have inspired my older kids. My daughter wanted to look at all the stuff I had from Thailand. My oldest son spent a month in France and Italy.

In America you need the degree to get anywhere now. There is no tramp steamers, There is no higher paying jobs. Without a degree. Minnumum wage is not enough to even pay the bills. And that is about the only jobs you can get without a degree. Unless you have a rich relative or know someone who owns a company and they can give you a job.

[Philip]

University education is not for everyone, but many Western countries seem to believe that the more people who get a degree the better. So there are more unemployed graduates than ever before saddled with crippling debts. And there are many employers using lazy recruiting techniques, employing people who have reached a certain educational level as an indicator of quality. They fail to use their common sense and any people skills to get a sense of whether a person will be right for the job.
In the UK, there used to be more of a path for apprenticeships for students who wanted to follow certain careers, e.g carpenters, builders, masons, electricians, etc. But even these have become infected by academic requirements, which put many people off.
Now most careers require higher and higher levels of English and stress the need for academic skills, seemingly nothing to do with a person's ability to do a job.
Two of my sisters are nurses, and they are required to complete degree-level studies to advance in their career.
Everyone has their strengths, some are good with their hands, some are good with people, some are good with their brains. There should be a career path for everyone. But, as you say Maxx, there is now this blanket requirement for a degree. Sad, really. When I look at someone who is good at what they do, I am full of admiration, whether it be a writer, a fork-lift truck driver, a stone mason, an artist, a teacher, a carpenter, a musician, a gardener, a decorator, whatever.
I hope that there is a change in this drive towards degrees. It devalues the qualification itself, and it deprives a significant amount of people of the opportunity to make a living from their abilities, experience and talents.

[Willy The Londoner]

I hear what you say Maxx. 

The trouble is that so many marriages do not go the distance.  Then what happens to the kids?  They get to see one parent regularly who may well find the job quite tiring.  The other parent, if the children are lucky, get to see the kids ones a week.

I realised a long while ago that that was not for me.  I do not envy you the pleasure or the pain that results in bringing children into this world.  It is just not for me.

Willy

[David E]

DavidE,
I think it safe to say, many of the world's young people eagerly pursue a
university education outside their native country.

What I say is that I think there is hope for your step- son. If he opens his eyes & lets
some light into his mind.

I cant argue with your points here, you are dead right.

But the majority of Foreign Students in Aus come here for their Uni education because they ultimately see this as the only way to migrate here permanently. I cant speak for other Countries, but Australian Immigration will usually grant a resident Visa to anybody paying for and completing a Uni degree here. So it becomes yet another pathway to short cut the standard Immigration process...albeit not an easy way and not a cheap way, but nevertheless a short cut of sorts !!

Recent changes after the new Liberal Government changed the Policy means that this short cut is now closed...if you want to come here...get in the queue.

As for my Step-Son opening his eyes and letting light into his mind....that is precisely his problem. So far he has convincingly proved that his culture/background/personality (or whatever) has prevented any of this enlightenment penetrating his mind !! He has been handed a Permanent Resident Visa because his Mum married me...he has a wonderful opportunity to make a good life in Aus and I told him on day one...

" You need to make a decision for your future here, you can be a Chinese person who lives in Australia or you can become an Australian person who was borne in China." If you chose the first option, you will place some limits on what you can be or do. If you embrace the second choice, then you can be all you want to be and more.

Naturally, The Little Emperor chose the former option...and there we parted company !!!!

[CypherDragon]

The trouble is that so many marriages do not go the distance.  Then what happens to the kids?  They get to see one parent regularly who may well find the job quite tiring.  The other parent, if the children are lucky, get to see the kids ones a week.

I can't remember what I was watching, but it had some interesting facts on marriage. Now this is all US-centric, of course, but from what I was watching 1 in 3 new (first) marriages fail within 5 years. 1 in 2 (half!) of all marriages fail in the same time frame. As a divorcee with kids, your point is absolutely true - as much as I love my son, there are times that I wish I would have put my ex-wife off when she was insisting on having another child.

One point that you forgot to mention, once the divorce is over the custodial parent (the one the kid(s) are with most of the time) can use them as a weapon against the other parent. I'm not saying that all people will do this, but mine certainly has. In my state, the standard visitation is every other weekend (1st, 3rd, and 5th Friday to be technical) and changing that to accommodate non-standard work schedules is almost impossible. I work nights, and my days off are Friday and Saturday. During the school year, I am also supposed to have him on Thursday nights...which since I work at night presents a bit of a problem. I will say that I see him more now than I did before the divorce, but it's still very difficult to spend much time with him since I'm always either working, or trying to catch up on housework that I can't do during the week. I also have to find ways to afford an overnight nanny/sitter to stay with him while I'm working. All this because my ex-wife decided that I wasn't worth talking with, and she could use my son to get at me emotionally...seems she doesn't like the fact that I haven't come crawling back to her. [/rant over]

I think the school system in the states has gotten better. Because before they were just looking for a paycheck. Now the parents and students demand better. And they have gotten better teachers. Who give a shit and are not there just to collect a paycheck.

At least here in my state, that's because teacher pay is really, really low. Seriously, what we pay our teachers is almost criminally low IMO, especially given the tax rates here. The only people you have doing it now are people that do it because of their passion for teaching, not for the tiny paycheck.

*Snipped for length*

Here in the US, there is still a need and paths for skilled tradesmen/women for various jobs. The problem is that the university system has pushed the idea that a degree is everything so hard, especially with HR staff, that now everyone thinks they need a degree when they actually don't (probably). Most of my peers around my age think that a degree is their path to untold riches and wealth, and an easy job where they can just collect a paycheck. I personally did not attend university, and have earned my education the old-fashioned way: I found what I like to do, and taught myself what I needed to know. I'm now a Senior Systems Administrator, making a pretty good wage, with only about $10k in education debt that I'm paying off as I can, and didn't really need in the first place. I got suckered into a training program that I could have done myself, but at least I was able to leverage it in to some industry certifications. Most of my peers are just finishing their degrees, or finished them only a few years ago, and are making half or less of what I do now.

The lack of a degree does hold me back a little bit, because HR staff don't know what IT entails, so they just go looking to check boxes before forwarding my resume/CV on to the hiring manager. Since I don't have a degree, I can't check that box, and don't get forwarded very much...but every once in awhile I get lucky and have a hiring manager that doesn't care. I'm far from alone in my field like this, but most people aren't willing to put in the hard work and self-education needed to be able to do what I've done. Which I don't really mind, since it means demand for my skillset is almost always there, and I've never been out of work for more than a couple of weeks.

So, the long and short of it, in the US at least, is that these career paths are still there. You just have to look for it, be willing to put in the work required, and be persistent in chasing your dream. That is the major stumbling block, most people don't have the fortitude anymore to do what needs to be done, they just want it handed to them. One of my favorite minor celebrities, Mike Rowe, has actually started a foundation to help folks that want to learn a skilled trade, because there is such a shortage of skilled tradesmen here. Not to try and shill for him, but check it out: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/foundation/