Author Topic: Inconsistencies in EMF messages  (Read 7351 times)

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David5o

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RE: Inconsistencies in EMF messages
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2009, 07:17:59 pm »
John,

Don't relax your guard at this stage of things, there is still a chance that your being scammed, or being led along right now by the translator. If i were you, i would be asking questions discreetly in your mails to her.... and see if the answers are freely forthcoming!!

3 hours does seem to be a quick turn around, but it all very much depends on what times your sending your EMF's, especially if she has use of a computer at work and/or at home. Perhaps you can make discrete enquires, about her work, and whether she has a home based computer or laptop. Maybe make a joke of how quickly she replies to your EMF's, and see if suddenly you start having to wait longer for her replies!! (a good indicator of translator writing the replies) If she has such access to computers, then all will be conducted over the internet between Fei and the translator, and is very feasible to have such quick replies. If contact between them is over the phone, then it's maybe, ....but it will also give the translator a greater scope to add the fluff into Fei's replies to you.

The feedback thing relates to the agency feedback from the men that have, or are using that agency to correspond with the ladies at that agency. If you go to chnlove and check a few profiles out from different agencies, you will see that at the bottom of the profile pages, they have an agency information section. It's there you will see the feedback percentage figures. I must say, 77% does seem on the low side, to be confident of this particular agency.

John, at this stage of things, nothing is sure, as you can imagine. So keep your eyes wide open and your wit's about you, until your sure in your own mind that everything between you is real.
Don't whatever you do, fall in love with a photo and translated words, that's about the worst thing you can let yourself do in these internet based relationships.

David....

Offline Johnboy

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RE: Inconsistencies in EMF messages
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2009, 07:25:25 pm »
Hi Brett,

I'm quite sure that it doesn't matter at all where the lady is from, although I think I would be rather cautious to begin with if she was from Shangai - from what I've read here about 'Shangai Princesses' (smile!).  Thanks for your suggestion that I ask her if she has lived in her province all her life and where her family came from; I think it's a great question to ask too.  Why don't I think of these things?

Unfortunately I'm an IT 'geek' though I use it daily for work and am reasonably computer literate; so you are streets ahead of me there, and it's an added bonus that you and your lady both work in IT and are therefore able to progress your relationship outside of the EMF's restrictive practices.  The thing I dislike about that most is having three people in the relationship.

I don't possess your skills in data analysis either, but just one look at Fei and I was lost!  I know it sounds crazy, but then, so is life.  I don't mean to sound personal, but did you ask your lady to send her address in an EMF or did she just do it?  The feeling I have with Fei at the moment, is that if I asked for her address or email she would politely say no, or it's too early, or something like that.  I'm cool with that, I like people to do what they want to do and not to feel compelled to do it.  I would be happy to pay for the address but I would not do it behind Fei's back, so to speak.  And going upfront about it and asking Fei if I could buy it would, I think, elicit the same no response.  Guess I'll just have to leave that one for a little later down the line.  But hey, putting the Mandarin phrases in my letter certaily seems to have got Fei onside, so I'm indebted to you for that!

Actually, the more I look at Fei's photos and read her profile and the letters she sends me, the more convinced I am that she has had a bad experience; unrequited love, been badly hurt/burned, I don't know but there's definitely something there - and Proteus picked up on that too with his melacholic comment and his thoughts between the lines.  Perhaps that's why Fei is treating me cautiously.  Or perhaps she just doesn't want to get involved with an ugly bugger?  only joking I think I can say without (what is that Mandarin word for conceit?), that I am reasonably attractive.  My female friends tell me I am and Fei wrote in her first letter to me that she was attracted at first sight to my photo.  Damn! I've just realised, that was probably the translator.  Oh no, here we go again, back on the merrygoround!!

Keep those suggestions coming please Brett - I'm on a mission to win my lady's heart!

Best ones, John
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to say nothing.  (Edmund Burke)

Offline Brian Mc

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RE: Inconsistencies in EMF messages
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2009, 08:12:53 pm »
Quote from: 'David5o' pid='19322' dateline='1254957479'

John,

Don't relax your guard at this stage of things, there is still a chance that your being scammed, or being led along right now by the translator. If i were you, i would be asking questions discreetly in your mails to her.... and see if the answers are freely forthcoming!!

3 hours does seem to be a quick turn around, but it all very much depends on what times your sending your EMF's, especially if she has use of a computer at work and/or at home. Perhaps you can make discrete enquires, about her work, and whether she has a home based computer or laptop. Maybe make a joke of how quickly she replies to your EMF's, and see if suddenly you start having to wait longer for her replies!! (a good indicator of translator writing the replies) If she has such access to computers, then all will be conducted over the internet between Fei and the translator, and is very feasible to have such quick replies. If contact between them is over the phone, then it's maybe, ....but it will also give the translator a greater scope to add the fluff into Fei's replies to you.

The feedback thing relates to the agency feedback from the men that have, or are using that agency to correspond with the ladies at that agency. If you go to chnlove and check a few profiles out from different agencies, you will see that at the bottom of the profile pages, they have an agency information section. It's there you will see the feedback percentage figures. I must say, 77% does seem on the low side, to be confident of this particular agency.

John, at this stage of things, nothing is sure, as you can imagine. So keep your eyes wide open and your wit's about you, until your sure in your own mind that everything between you is real.
Don't whatever you do, fall in love with a photo and translated words, that's about the worst thing you can let yourself do in these internet based relationships.

David....


Greetings again Brothers,

Just a thought from Davids post, and by the way David is that little voice in your head that tries its best to keep you on the straight and narrow, or at least he was for me hehe.  By and large David and I are at the opposite end of the dating online spectrum.  I am a dyed in the wool romantic and David is more of a use your head and dont do anything stupid kinda guy.  No offence David you know how much I value your little voice in MY head.

Anyway on to the point.I do not know what agency you are using with Fei but perhaps they are a relatively new one.  If that is the case it would be easy to see how their rating is somewhat low.  Also perhaps they have a translator or two who are as yet inexperienced with translating love letters back and forth between two totally different languages and cultures and are still working out the kinks.  ALso keep in mind its really easy for one upset man to rate down an agency just because he got upset with the words that the lady may have said to him.

There are many different types of personalities involved here, the men, the ladies, and the translators.  If a man for instance was being somewhat abusive or pushy, ( yes I have heard of this happening) or including sexual references, inuendo (yes I have that first hand info also),etc. and was rebuffed by the lady and or the translator a low rating could easily result.

From some of the stories I heard from Zhen's friends when I was with her and them in China its absolutely amazing what some guys write to these ladies.  I have also heard of guys who drop the lady cold if they dont progress from emf's within 3 or 4 letters.

Since many of these lades do not have home computers, their english is as bad as our Mandarin and they are by and large not comfortable speaking english on the phome you can easily see how nonemf contact is resisted.

While I agree with the accepted wisdom that you need to get to alternate methods of communication and to get real life unshopped photos, please remember that each lady is different in her comfort level with this process, online dating in general, and her ability to reach the trust level where she will do these things.

Again for Zhen and I we exchanged all contact info , phone address email etc rather quickly, and did a 2 1/2 hour webcam very shortly thereafter ( with the help of the agency owner i might add), not everyone can accomplish the same that fast.

Remember also what has been said several times that most pictures on the profiles are heavily shopped and not alway to the delight of the ladies.  So some may be somewhat scared to suddenly reveal their true likeness to you before haveing a chance for you both to get to know you better.  I am sure many ladies have had guys run for the hills when the guy sees that her true beauty is not the playboy centerfold he thought she was.

Zhens profile pictures portray her as being closer to mid twenties than her actual age of 42, however after seeing her on the webcam the first time and then again in person and getting adjusted to her true look she is so much more beautiful than her shopped pictures could ever portray.  Unfortunately many men bail out at the sudden change in look and dont give the lady's true beauty a chance to shine through and capture his heart.  Very bad mistake in my opinion but then thats what is is , my opinion.

As for Davids very valid point about not falling in love with a picture and some emf love letters well here David and I agree to disagree.  Zhen and I reached the commit stage very quickly in our relationship.  We are both disgustingly romantic people and our letters were and are filled with the luvy duvy stuff that makes clear headed people cringe and their teeth ache from the sweetnes hehe.  However when I went over on sept 6th to meet her it was like a total continuation of our emfs.  You would almost think it was a script for a hollywood romance movie.  We clicked instantly and their was no doubt that the chemistry was there on a massive scale. We were fated to be together and so we are.

However I am definitely not saying you will find the same as Zhen and I.  I do believe we are the exception to just about every online dating rule imaginable.  All I advise is to keep your mind and heart open and try to no be too analytical and witholding.  If your lady doesnt feel the trust and the geniune effort to progress the relationship it will die just as fast as if you went nuts on her with weird demands or went romantic on her before she is ready.

A wide open mind and heart tempered with that not so common sense and a willingness to trust and allow trust will see you through.  Remember the golden rules, Maxx's 24 hour rule is vital as is remembering the basic different culture different rules and also language differences and translations can kill your relationship.  Add in a solid dose of advice from the brothers and you should be fine.

Regards, to all

Zhen and Brian

Offline Johnboy

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RE: Inconsistencies in EMF messages
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2009, 09:13:13 pm »
Greetings to you and Zhen Brian,

Wow! You really are a heavyweight and one of my hero's too - I read so many of your postings too when I first joined the Brotherhood; mind you, that doesn't say much as I've got so many hero's on this site - and noooo I am not naming names haha.  Seriously Brian, thank you so much for the in-depth insight you have given me in your long exposition on Chnlove, the ladies, the agencies, the translators and just about everything else to do with internet relationships.  Absolutely brilliant! I am extremely grateful.  

I won't respond to all the points you make, unless you've got a week to spare (and I get the feeling Zhen might take exception to that!), but I will absorb EVERYTHING that you have written and learn from it, because it is all so valuable, particularly the explanation about how EMF's and translation works, or often doesn't, as you so ably point out.  Yes, you are quite right I was becoming slightly paranoid and caught up with the negative view of refreshed profiles, but I think I've finally surmounted that now and feel much better and calmer.  The thing is Brian, if I did not care for Fei so much (or even care for her at all ie game player) none of it would bother me at all.  It is because I DO care so much for Fei that the frustration and negative thoughts get to me.  I don't think I have articulated that very well but I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from. And from what you have written about yourself and Zhen  I understand where you are coming from - and it's where I long to be!  I want to be in the happiest guy in the world club too!  This is said seriously Brian there are no ha ha's.

Yes, I understand it's a tough road to take, and I've already learnt that it is fraught with frustration, confusion and annoyance (fortunately I haven't had to experience grief - yet) and I've just learned that it's even tougher than I thought.  But that does not daunt me Brian, as long as Fei allows me to, and hopefully begins to encourage me to, I will be there.  My friends and work colleagues tell me that I am the most perseverant person they have ever know (not being- what is that Mandarin word for...) and I'm sure you have heard that old adage 'perseverance is the enemy of failure'.  The only thing that would turn me away is if Fei categorically and truthfully told me she did not want me or she wasn't intersted in me.  And from what I know of her thus far she is very straigh-forward and honest and perfectly able to say those words in a polite way.  Here I go again down that hill called negativity.  I'm not normally a negative person Brian, I'm positive and I have a very optimistic outlook.  But somehow I have let this get to me.  Cooler and calmer now though, and if it is to be it will be.  I am a strong believer in fate.

As regards your PS: I'm not really sure you are quite right about Fei not waiting for someone else to come along whilst she is writing to me - and there would be nothing terribly wrong if she was.  Obviously I would hope that she would be decent about it and tell me sooner rather than later, and yes, I would be heartbroken! It's only natural for her to want her Mr 100% (Brett's term) if she can find him, I can empathise with that.  I want my Miss 100%, it just happens to be her.  You and Zhen have got your Mr and Mrs 100%, each other.  It's perfectly understandable, and to some degree, acceptable, as long as it's premised in a decent, honest, unhurtful way - as much as possible; and therein lies the dillemna.......

Brian, you know far more about all of this than I will ever know and I am eternally grateful to you for sharing your wisdom and experience with me - as well as your utter and absolute happiness in being with Zhen, which leaps off the page!  I shall revisit your words time and again, absorb them and digest them and, most important of all, I shall learn from them!!

My sincere thanks,

And my good thoughts and wishes to Zhen and you....................It's soooo wonderful to see two people in love.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to say nothing.  (Edmund Burke)

Offline Proteus

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RE: Inconsistencies in EMF messages
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2009, 10:55:52 pm »
Morning Boys,

Are you in bed now, John? I'm 8 hours ahead of Greenwich.

After reading your words above and re-checked Fei's profile, I assume I know a little more of you both. Am I right to say you are a relatively sensitive man with a soft heart and care more of other people's feeling than your own? Your nature is inclined to be reigned by logic yet in love your heart speaks louder than mind?

As to Fei, the information I have only permits me to make some deduction about her life rather than personality. With a college certificate, she is probably computer literate and either has one of her own or has regular access to use. After all, Chongqing is a leading city in mid-western China with its competitor Chengdu. Clerk is a blurred word in describing profession. And from her profile, she seems to be a little naive still with the absolute romantic dream of love and her Prince. The word "perfect" in her profile caught my attention. It sounds a little inexperiencied so I assume she has not many stories to tell about her past romance.

I understand real pictures mean a lot to you and I think they should come as naturally as QQ and MSN. Request to direct communication may place pressure on ladies' confidence of their English yet request to "Real" photos suggests doubts on their profile photos. You may try some techniques to get your request fulfilled such as chatting about National Day vacation and asking her if she has had some trips then drawing the photo topic naturally.

About your situation, my brain is on David's side yet heart on Brian's. So I try to give you some advice that would apply in either situation. Please do bear in mind that particular words or phrases carries much less meaning than the whole letter so don't get into them deeply. You can find the translator's English level already in Fei's profile, right? As to her "find more things", I guess it means "find if there are chance between you two". At this stage of communication to this lady in her mid-20s, I suggest you try to find out what she really wants and tell her what you want. It's wise to engourage her long letters because I hope true love can breed between your further communication. My point is here, if someone can fall in love to only pictures our of his control, someday that love might leave out of his control.

As to the agency, it's a vetaran one starting coperation with chnlove as early as in March 2005. And its newest lady has the number P***490 but only 124 ladies available currently. Now two questions concerns me. 1. why such an experienced agency has such low rating? 2. where has the other 366 ladies gone? The fact that it recruits 490 ladies implies good local reputation but it contradicts with the low rating score. About the 366 off ladies, I assume they had their profiles taken down because of contract expiration. During the first year from 2005.3 to 2006.3, it recruits 250+ ladies, the second year 80, third year, 100, fourth year and a half 90. So I present here a bold deduction that its service quality is deteriorating.

Not very up-lifting researching result, but I hope it won't dampen your feeling to Fei. The agency is only a pool, it's your courage and perseverance that will help you find out whether she's lotus or swan. Looking forward to your next chapter of love story.

Offline Johnboy

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RE: Inconsistencies in EMF messages
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2009, 04:20:59 am »
Good Morning Proteus!

I am afraid that 'bed' is a distant relative to me these days, so much work to do.  Thank you, thank you so much for your incredible research and analysis. But how do you know so much about me? You are so right in what you say. Amazing! I believe I can truthfully say I am a sensitive man, who cares about others feelings more than my own and I care deeply about those who suffer poverty, deprivation and social injustice.  And, yes, my heart does rule my head - I make no excuses or apologies for that.

Your deductions about Fei's life sit completely with my opinions and the word "perfect" in her profile caught my eye too.  She is definitely searching for her Prince and her romantic dream of love.  But Proteus, I also see a sadness in her eyes and sense that she has suffered some past hurt; perhaps unrequited love, lost love, hurt in love - something of that nature.  This 'sadness' also occasionally appears in her letters and I have the impression she is being cautious about me; not because of me as an individual but because of something else correlated to what I have already written ie unrequited love etc.  It is as though she is afraid or very wary of involvement.  Trust me Proteus, my intentions are pure and I would never dream of writing anything offensive or suggestive to Fei, and I genuinely believe she knows and feels that.  She comments in her letters that I am gentle and kind and that I bring happiness to her. So I know that her reservations are not about my character or personality.  But still there is something else.  I really regret having to write in this way and almost feel that I am betraying Fei's confidence, but I know no other way to express my thoughts and feelings, so I shall leave this point here.

Returning to your analysis of Fei's life: she tells me in her letters that she is an assistant to the general manager of an insurance company, so I presume clerk would fit that description.  From what I have gleaned from her last two letters she is computer literate and I believe she has or would have access to a computer.  She was actually playing Devil's Advocate about the role of Internet and online relationships in her last but one letter and there was a strong sense of irony in what she wrote.  So, again, you are correct.

I have not even considered broaching QQ or SMN at this point in our relationship, partly because I sense that Fei does not want me to but mainly because I would rather she moved naturally to talking (writing) about doing that.  I can certainly 'steer' her gently in that direction but I want her to feel comfortable about it.  I most certainly do NOT want her to feel embarrassed or that she has to do it.  I make no demands of her, and at this time I am just seeing where our relationship is going to on issues such as that.  I respect others' feelings and needs and I'm a very tolerant person.  But I am also very perseverant, not in a 'pushy' or autocratic way but in being there, if that makes sense?

The 'real' photos are another matter: I asked her very gently (no demands) if she could send me some of her enjoying the sun, shopping with friends, that sort of thing, and she sent them with her next letter.  Oh, joyous day! She is even more beautiful than her heavily photoshopped profile pictures.  She has the most wonderful long, black hair, which is 'chopped' in her photoshopped pictures, and in her natural form she is utterly beautiful - and I told her so in my return letter - not exactly in those words because I didn't want her to think that I was being 'mushy' or fluffy, I leave that to the translators. Oh, I beg your pardon Proteus, present company excepted of course!  The moral of this is that with gentleness and consideration and trust, other goals may be attained, QQ, MSN etc.  Trust, Proteus, is the most important quality to Fei; she mentions it in her every letter, phrases such as "I wish you trust me", "trust and honesty are very important in relationships", "first we must have trust and build from there".  These words are engraved on my heart and mind, and are another reason why I think Fei has suffered a hurtful romance - although, in my book, hurtful and romance do not sit well together; indeed, they are the enemies of each other.  I may of course be wrong, but I am very susceptible to the feelings of others, especially those I feel affection for. I also hasten to add that trust is a vital requirement for me in a relationship too, along with honesty and faithfulness and mutual respect.

Incidentally, Fei and I have chatted about her National Day vacation. she went on a trip to Chengdu with her family, so your suggestion gives me another idea for one of your 'cunning plans',  Thank you Proteus, I am beginning to like you enormously! And do not fret Proteus I am not so naive, nor so baseless as to fall in love with a picture.  But I grasp the moral behind your narrative, and it is well-put.

Your Brian/David, heart/mind advise has really opened my eyes and I take your point regarding the relevance of particular words or phrases carrying much less meaning than the whole letter.  I had in fact been doing the opposite until Mike MPO advised me to concentrate on the 'meat' of the letter; I did this with my last exchange of letters with Fei and it turned out to be fabulous advice - our best letters yet! It does help though when the translator isn't popping their fluffy bits in.  How can I put a complete stop to that? Footnote saying: "Hey translator stop putting the fluffy stuff in or I'll get Vince and his little friend (enormous dog, have you seen it?) to pay you a visit"?  Seriously, the fluffy stuff has been getting in the way and causing problems, and anyway, when or if the the occasion arises, I like to express my own terms of affection and endearment. Advice on this gratefully received (NOT on the terms of affection etc!).

Returning to your advice. Your point about finding out what Fei wants from life and telling her what I want from life is astutely aposite (in fact Brett has already suggested I should do this).  The problem is that Fei tells me she is not good at writing, so it may be difficult, without making her feel uncomfortable, to encourage her to write longer letters as you suggest and I want to avoid embarrassing her at all costs.  I have been encouraging her with small compliments such as telling her that she is a good writer but she is not convinced; this leaves me with the conundrum of what to do, what to see, where to go.  It also leads me to think that Fei lacks confidence, whereas I have bags of the stuff (what is that Mandarin phrase for not being ...?).  Again, any advice about this would be gratefully received!  Yet again, another device that I found incredibly helpful, as an ice-breaker, was Brett's brilliant suggestion that I put the occasional Mandarin word or phrase in my letters to Fei.  I did this in my last letter and it worked wonderfully and provoked a similar response from Fei who seemed to be delighted that I had done it.  So, yes you have guessed, the whole of the next letter is going to be in Mandarin!

Your understanding of the meaning of Fei's words: "find more thing", is of great comfort to me because I was viewing them from a negative aspect.  But reading your thoughts I think you may very well be right. I do hope so.  Morover, I have fathomed the translator's level of English, both from Fei's profile and her letters; I will leave my comments at that, save to ask, do these people realize what grief and confusion they cause, whether intentionally or not?

Similarly, your research of Fei's agency is prodigious, how do you do it?  And no, they are not very uplifting results at all.  And no, it does not dampen my feelings for Fei by one iota.  And on your last point dear Proteus I am lost, for I can not for the life of me fathom your very enigmatic maxim of my courage and perseverance and and my discovery of whether Fei is a lotus or a swan. Given that both are beautiful and, in different ways, desirable I am lost as to the rationale of your thinking.  I understand the "agency is only a pool" part, does that correlate with the swan eating the lotus floating on the pool?  Please tell me, I might be tested on this one in a letter from Fei!

I am sorry if this is overlong, it was longer, but a large piece of my text suddenly disappeared, which I am sure will please you immesely!

I thank you again from my heart Proteus for bearing with me and giving me such insight in to matters of which I have no knowledge - I am indeed an innocent abroad.  But, like you, I looks forward to the next chapter of this contining love story - only from a different perspective......

Ni rang wo kai xin

Ah, I have it Proteus.  A lotus is a flower of beauty that captures the eye but once it has bloomed will wither and die,  A swan is a thing of beauty and grace that mates for life and is faithful to its mate.  It is which of these two that I choose from the agency pool that will determine my fate.  You are a very clever man Proteus and I bow to your intellect.  I, on the other hand, am a very perseverant man, and perseverance is the enemy of failure.  You may rest assured that I have the courage and perseverance to find my swan and pursue my fate.

Trust me!
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 12:04:35 am by Johnboy »
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to say nothing.  (Edmund Burke)