China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => The Campfire => Topic started by: brett on October 26, 2009, 02:39:26 pm
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Hi guys,
Wow, this morning my lady dropped a massive bombshell... her salary. It turns out she earns around 1000RMB a month. At first I couldn't believe this - I had to ask my fellow brothers in the shoutbox for confirmation. It turns out it is probably true.
I knew that average salaries in China were low, and that my lady has (in her words) a so-so job as an interior designer. But that salary is unbelievably low, given an average UK interior designer would be on around £19K.
I feel kind of bad now because I realise that her parents must have spent a significant sum on buying me some decent green tea and cooking a lavish feast. And even the cake my lady bought me as a gift must have cost a fair bit.
When I visited China I didn't think it was that cheap a country. By comparing prices of Coca-Cola, McDonalds, pot noodles, beer, train journeys and stuff I'd guess it is 3-4x cheaper than the UK. But I was surprised at the high prices in the swanky designer shopping malls - even I was put off by the prices of Jade jewellery. Hmm, the gulf between rich and poor is much larger than it is in the UK.
By comparing the amount of watermelons (10RMB in China, £3 in the UK) a person on an average salary earns it's clear the Chinese have a raw deal. My lady tells me that competition for jobs, be it shoe shiners or civil servants is severe.
Wow, my mind is truly blown. Even my little website business I run in my spare time earns 3-4x as much as my lady, so I could easily afford to employ her as a receptionist or something!
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I find that having been to a few countries within Asia. (not made it to Japan yet tho) I think the best way to describe the wealth situation, is a little like Dickensian England. Where you was rich if you was born into it, but if not, you was pretty much below the poverty level, and you'd pretty much had no chance of getting above the poverty level, unless you married into it.
Andy...
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In Taishan / Kaiping, Guangdong Province ...
Per Month ...
Accountant ... 3,000 RMB
Hotel ( 5 Star ) Restaurant Manager ... 6,000 RMB
Hotel Security Guard ... 1,800 RMB
Doctor / Dentist ... 4,000 RMB
Waiter ... 2,000 RMB
Fisherman ... 600 RMB
Everything's relative regarding cost of living compared with the West. When my 5-star hotel bill came out to 17,000 RMB for 68 days, my lady thought it was overly expensive ( 5 month's salary ). I thought it was cheap ( $ 38 / day ). Everytime I say something's cheap/inexpensive, my lady brings me back to earth and says it's not cheap by her standards of living. It's almost like an insult to their way of living.
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Brett, I know that feeling.
My good woman, in Wuhan, earns a similar amount to that, from teaching primary school age students.
I know some of the guys have had some bad experiences with gold diggers. But my experience is exactly the opposite.
The generousity of my good woman and her family, just shames me. When I was there, they wouldn't let me pay for anything: not the restaurants, not for the hotel room, not for the visits to the tourist sites, the bus fares, not anything.
I suppose it is has been said many a time, by Maxx and others . . . you go with expectations about how things will go and it always turns out much differently than you thought.
I know for most of us, when you are with someone who doesn't care much about you (like my woman from Zhuhai), you sort of get used to her not making any effort. Now with my woman from Wuhan, it's like night and day.
She was telling me how she went out and got her hair dyed when she knew I was coming and had a wave put through it, because she wanted a more "western" hairstyle.
And when we talk on Skype, her mother comes and brushes her hair while she talks to me so she will look good for me. It's only a small thing, but it makes me smile, and makes me feel all warm inside when I see it happen.
I really am a lucky guy *smiles*
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My wife earns the average of $75.00 per week or about 500 yuan, as a Registered Nurse with over 22 years of experience. She is also a physicians assistant in the OR. That is about 3900 USD per year. Now when she lives in her room attached to the hospital she only pays 200 yuan a month, it would normally cost about 2500 yuan a month. If she does not live there she does not get the per diem so you really cant count it as part of her salary. She also shares it with two other nurses. Here in the USA she would earn over $75k with the same job. The minimum wage in the US is $290 for 40 hours or $7.25 per hour. Now do you see why they think western men are all rich? A person working in a convenience store with no training makes 4 times more than my wife does with her College degree and as a registered nurse. Now price the food. You talk about a watermelon being 10 yuan that is .68 cents in US dollars. Here it is about 3 to 4 dollars depending on what store or if you buy from a road side vendor. That is 5 times more than there. Food is relatively cheap there, maybe not 5 times but at least 2 to 3 times more here. Housing is expensive there. Yes their salaries are low but their cost of living is also less for the basic items. Food and basic clothing. Like Chong said it is all relative. Where it gets them is in the extras. Computers, TV's, cable, internet, etc. My wife says the same thing, if I think it is cheap she says it is very expensive. I bought her a bike, $48 USD. She thought it was expensive and she did not want me to buy it, even though she really wanted it. She asked me at least 5 or 6 times if I really thought it was cheap enough to buy. I told her of course it is, so she let me buy it for her. You would have thought it was a Cadillac. Here that same bike goes for about $300. It is the kind that folds up to put it in the trunk of a car or taxi. She can even take it on the train to Wuhan when she goes. She just puts it in the storage closet on the train.
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This is where it can get very confusing trying to compare Chinese salaries and Chinese lifestyles with our Western model.
Those of us who have made the journey and lived among them know that their BASIC life is adequate...they can live, eat and afford the things for a good BASIC life.
What they dont have is the availability of disposable income...via cash or Credit Cards or easy Store Credit to indulge themselves in all the "needs and wants" that categorise our Western life.....cameras, slr's, vcr's, plasma tv's, new cars new phones, ipods, etc, etc, etc.
This is what is slowly emerging in their economy...the release of pent up demand for the consumer goods that are" essential" for a happy life..........although there are some that would challenge our Western view of what constitutes a happy life....maybe it is not measured by all the possessions we feel we must have.
Things like fridges, washing machines and more useful and labour saving gadgets are becoming more and more available. But the National psyche still avoids high debt levels at the individual level...but maybe they will get that bad habit from us...maybe not.
To make any comparisons between our lifestyle and theirs purely on relative wages is flawed. It IS possible to get a watermelon for 8 RMB....but in Aus it would cost $5. Here we CANNOT buy a house for less than $600,000, or an apartment for less than $350,000.
But our average wage is about $500 per week, and very few people earn this...99% earn far more. the average wage would impose the same restrictions on Aus folk as the average wage does in China...that is, you can live on it, but not much room left for any "indulgencies " or luxuries.....in any event we have grown used to haveing and being able to afford almost anything we "want"....usually via debt....and there must be some serious doubt whether much of what we "want" does a lot to improve the quality of our life. Easy for me to say that, I know...not so easy when you dont have some of the things we take for granted.
Please let us hope that the Chinese are forever smart enough to avoid this meaningless drive towards possessions at all costs.
That they have done so up 'till now is remarkable, and is but one of the reasons they retain some real qualities in life...thats why we look for Chinese partners...right ??
DavidE
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My two monthly pay examples..
Ling 1 - senior accountant (she has a team of junior accountants under her) 3000 RMB in Guangzhou
Ling 2 - manager in a telecoms company 4000-5000 RMB in Tianjin (depending on the amount of overtime she does, she works 6+ days a week most weeks from what I can gather)
These are both relatively senior positions but the wages just don't compare at all.
The gulf there is truly enormous, there are malls there that are extravagant by western standards with prices to match and then there is the rest. There is no Chinese middle class it seems - just hugely upper, much lower and even lower.
I expect over time this will change as the economy changes.
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I agree David. Things dont make you happy. First you have to know how to be happy with your basic life, then enhance it with "things". For example, when I am down, I get on my bike and take a ride. That cheers me up, just being on the motorcycle cruising. If I didnt have the bike, maybe watching a sunset from on top of the mountain. One of the happiest times we had was one night when I played a stupid Michael Jackson, doing his dances and singing his songs. No cost, nothing. It is the night that broke open Qingqing with me. She still comments on it. I think in this country we sometimes forget how to be happy with just ourselves. Staying home and reading a good book instead of camping in front of the 52" plasma TV. Or spending all night in front of the computer instead of going out and taking a walk. I am as guilty as anyone with that. When in China instead of watching tv, we went out for a walk after dinner. Enjoying the park and the people doing their things. I know some of the guys have commented on people out dancing in the park, I saw this in our apartment complex park and in a lot of parks, doing exercises. No cost, no "things" just people being together. The more affluent we get the more we tend to forget those kinds of things and focus on earning more money so we can have a bigger house, or car or whatever. George Carlin had a great routine about "stuff".
I have seen some of the changes in China already. Just look at the diminishing bicycles. Scooters and mopeds have become the thing now. The first time I went to China I asked a guy there why I did not see more bicycles. He said we now earn more money so we buy cars. Now I know they cannot afford to go out and pay cash for a car. Maybe they have saved enough for a scooter. A moped in Beijing started out at 1500 rmb. $220 USD. So they are becoming used to debt. I saw signs for credit cards. Even more the last time than the first time. That was just a year apart. I also noticed the difference in numbers of mopeds and scooters over bicycles in just one year. Now that is in Beijing and Wuhan. Mainly Beijing. So I believe debt is coming to them. They still have a sort of Debtors prison there, but that is passing also. I believe in 5 to 10 years the average Chinese will have learned how to put himself in debt. Not as large as here maybe but still big by their standards. Consumerism is on the rise there. Look at the number of computer stores, TV stores and appliance stores. Look at the number of malls, even upscale malls. I was in a China bank, we waited for over 30 minutes to get to a teller. There were 10 tellers plus officers in the back. From the looks of things most people there were getting loans. we could see them coming from the Loan officers to the tellers to get their money. All of them were younger adults. They are learning how to become middle class. Not with savings, but with debt.
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Jim,
You wouldn't believe how much China has changed since i first arrived on it's shores!!
It wasn't 20 years ago that Beijing was virtually dead before midnight, .....now it's like any western city, a 24/7 hive of activity. And that will now happen in every other minor city in the very near future.....
Salaries
As far as salaries goes, our Chinese junior Engineers were earning approx' 1800 RMB/month, and
our Chinese experienced Engineers were earning approx' 4100-4400RMB/month.
As for a hotel restaurant manager on 6000 RMB/month, .... it would have to be a hugely hugely successful establishment!!! Our accountants were on around 1600-1750 RMB/month...
Those expensive Malls are popping up everywhere these days, ... but i found many of the establishments within them, rarely lasted too long, maybe 12 months to 18 months. I've also seen a few of these Malls revert to regular type Malls but still retaining an up market feel about them, and seemed to become quite a lot more popular too....
David....
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The pace of change is utterly breathtaking.
Blink and you missed it. Its the industrial revolution on steroids there.
There is huge potential for money to be made by smart business men there as a result.
The only thing that could derail this juggernaut is Africa imho
Africa is the next cheapest place to do business, India -> China -> Africa...logical globalisation move.
A steady regime in an Africa country with tax breaks for western companies to set up could reap massive benefits and I have read that the Chinese government is investing there too - they want to be the w/eastern company that gains there.
Africa in general is one big mess. I deal with most African countries on a daily basis in work and I'm continually amazed how the whole edifice doesn't topple over such is the incompetency and apathy that people in positions of responsibility appear to have there in general..
Developing solar technologies also offer Saharan countries massive electricity exportation.
We are living in interesting times.
The next 10 years may see the world change as much as the last 100.
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A doctor with 16 years experience in both pharmacy and A& E earns 6500 rmb a month for a 8.30 - 5.30 5 day week.
Everyone where my lady works all do a 62 hour week for just 1000 rmb a month. They work a 13 day fortnight but is calculated by having every Sunday afternoon off - not a full day.
Now I have not yet seen signs of corruption here. People talk about being ripped of by the Chinese - not come across it here - it is is it is out of sight
Red envelope passing that is normal amongst the Chinese but that is only given the wealthy more.
But Africa is different. I was in the most corrupt country in the world other than Haiti, which was Nigeria ( not my opinion the United Nation's ) A department would get 10,000,000 to spend on redoing a section of road. The department head would authorise maybe 250,000 to patch up what was there and pocket the rest. A poor school teacher earning basic wages get elected to the city council - within one year he has a big house and car and a couple of servants!!
It was admitted by the government last year that of 125 billion dollars given in aid over 100 billion had just disappeared!!!!
In Nigeria corruption is visible on every street. But have not seen signs of it here.
Willy
I feel kind of bad now because I realise that her parents must have spent a significant sum on buying me some decent green tea and cooking a lavish feast. And even the cake my lady bought me as a gift must have cost a fair bit.
The other thing to learn Brett is that the Chinese are the most generous people that you will ever meet. They will often spend many days food money on entertaining a guest. Often money that they may not be able to afford.
Willy
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David E's commentary on the futility of comparing Chinese salaries and Chinese lifestyles with our Western model - and I would factor in to that our, so-called, Western values - is very well-put and extremely well-articulated. The paramount principle of course, is that in time we cease to own or control our possessions and they come to own and control us.
Let us all share David's hope "that the Chinese are forever smart enough to avoid this meaningless drive towards possessions at all cost."
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Very interesting discussion. I've come to learn that the world's, and especially the west's economy is all smoke and mirrors. The dollar has value because we believe it has value. This is why when the numbers for the Consumer Confidence rating comes out every month that the economists pay attention. This is what drives new home sales, orders for durable goods and all the other economic indicators. Yes the people in the US can buy lots of things in other countries for pennies on the dollar, but the real measure is ratio comparison. How much does it cost someone for rent or mortgage compared to their monthly income? Also you can compare the monthly income to how much you pay for groceries, and other necessities. It is true that a debt driven economy will have prices that are higher, thus requiring wages to increase, when wages increase people have more money to buy more stuff. It is a vicious cycle.
I think one of the key things David E hit on is contentment. I see the example in my own life. My father was self employed and realized the value of his income. I had an uncle who made a LOT less but his family was always happy, playing sports together, cards, and other things they did that didn't require money. We were all raised to understand it's not about stuff, but the people you surround yourself with. Because like in the Dickens stories, what good is money if you don't have people you love to share it with?
Just my thoughts. >smile<
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China's salary system has been reclassified into position rankings, whereby salary levels have been broken down into a basic salary, position salary, bonus salary and salary dependant on length of service, the calculating of pensions has also been revamped. This surprised me, it's from cri.com:-
Ninety-eight-year-old grandpa Du lives in an ordinary apartment building with his family in Qingdao, Shandong Province, in eastern China. Along with his son, daughter-in-law and his granddaughter, the three generations are sharing a quiet, idyllic life.As a worker in a local fuel company before retirement, grandpa Du now lives totally off his monthly pension. Talking about the changes in salaries, grandpa Du has a lot to say."Before the foundation of the People's Republic of China, people felt life was insecure. However, things were completely different after 1949. I retired in 1975, back then salaries were not high, like 70 to 80 yuan a month, but enough to live off.My pension has been raised a couple of times since my retirement. It has been raised to over 1,700 yuan a month and the services here are quite good"
There is also a housing security system in China, called the "housing provident fund" is composed of two parts. A certain percentage of money from an employee's monthly salary is set aside for housing. Meanwhile, their employer has to offer up the same amount of money, deposited into the same bank account. People can withdraw this amount of money for the purpose of purchasing, decorating or renting an apartment.So as always here it's not quite as it first appears! Governmental statistics state that the average Chinese workers salary is 13.5 percent higher than last year and according to the findings of the" 2008 Chinese happiness index"
Men feel as happy as women. People older than 60 feel happier than other people and people with higher education qualifications are happier than those with lower education qualifications. Although many people think "marriage is the tomb of love", married people are much happier than single people. Income is a factor that people can't shake off when they talk about happiness. In this survey, people with a monthly salary of 2,000-4,000 yuan are happier than those earning 6,000-8,000 yuan every month. However, people with an income of 15,000-20,000 yuan a month are happiest.
China, and its role in the world around it, defies simple categorisation. To look closely at the country is to realise how little you really comprehend it, in all its complexity and contradictions. It is of a vastness and singularity that defies casual understanding.You really do have to let go of all the things you think you know about China.
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Yes an interesting discussion here. I think my lady's salary is way to low, but she says that good (or even so-so) jobs are hard to come by in Yichang. I guess this is the same in the UK with most of the high paying jobs being in London (although it's less the case now than it was 10+ years ago).
One of her friends is studying to become a civil servant. I also know that if you have good English skills you're much better positioned for a better job.
I don't know what sort of income her parents live on. They are both retired now and I guess they have some sort of pension. Their apartment block is, er, old, but their apartment is very smart. They have a fridge/freezer and a flat screen TV. I guess they don't spend much on non-food stuff as their apartment is too small to accumulate stuff.
As to where China goes from here, well I'm not yet convinced their economy will continue to boom. There is an awful lot of speculative development, and a lot of near empty expensive shopping malls. China has largely got rich off the back of the Western consumer getting into debt to buy consumer goods, bigger houses etc. That has now gone, maybe forever, and I don't yet see Chinese internal demand taking over.
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Brett
Lets put some facts into the debate about the future of the Chinese economy shall we !
China has a population of 1.3 Billion, and even with their one -child-policy, the nett population growth for the forseeable future, correcting for deaths and natural attrition, will be over 200 million new people to feed, clothe, house and entertain EACH YEAR.
That represents one HELL of a new market for goods and services every year, on, and on and on !!
The West is in the grip of an economic downturn which has reduced the demand for Chinese (and every other ) goods into our markets. But the downturn has not ELIMINATED all demand, so there is still a market for the Chinese products....albeit at a reduced level.
Just as an interesting comparison, Australia is a prime supplier of many raw materials to China, and in the case of iron-ore, all of it comes from my State of Western Australia. Our biggest supplier of Iron-ore to the Chinese market used to ship 14 Bulk ships filled with iron -ore each month (at about 50,000 tonnes each).
Since the downturn, this shipping rate has dropped alarmingly...to 11 ships full !!!!!!!!
So to speak about economic downturns with regard to China gets a bit misleading, because their NETT annual population growth demands an equivalent increase in goods and services equivalent to 10 times the whole population of Australia and about equal to the total population of UK.
This is why in a "stand-still" mode, China will have a demand growth of 8 % per annum....not real bad !!!
What you see in the empty Malls, the idle factories is the pause in the "marginal costed" incremental Business that now waits for natural growth to take it up....admittedly, this will now take somewhat longer than pre-crisis.
But make no mistake...China is not any where near depression - practically or economically and never will be as far into the future as anyone can predict.
Women looking for Western husbands (generally, but there are exceptions of course) are not "economic refugees" looking to rip you off !! They may not have all the things that we covet, but they have a very adequate lifestyle and have a lot to lose by hitching up with a western man...but they also have a lot to gain...when they find their Prince in the West....so treat them carefully...they deserve it.
I apologise to all who are bored to tears with such a "dry" economic post, but it is one thing I am very qualified to comment about ...(wish I knew as much about Chinese Ladies...but i'm learning :icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:)
DavidE
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David this is all real interesting to me.I'm learning alot on this thread.
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Thanks Maxx !!
Now may i bore you all some more on another subject I am qualified to write about !!!
I note that for the first time Brett has raised the issue of Pre-nuptial Agreements in regard to a future Chinese wife.
So far as I am aware from reading everything over the past few months, this has never been raised in any post before.
So some Legal facts for you all to consider......
If anyone thinks that a Pre-nup is a mechanism for protecting yourself from a failed future marriage as way to avoid paying her any of your money...think again...and think carefully !!!!
The Legal purpose of a Pre-nup is to define the asset position of both parties BEFORE the marriage and to define the allocation of any ADDITIONAL assets in the event of a marriage failure.
Unless you are a Movie Star, a Football guru or a Pop-Star, a pre-nup for "normal people" will have no weight in Law.
Simply put...if your partner has no assets (likely so if she is Chinese) and you have assets (likely so if you have a home, superannuation and/or other assets), then the Divorce Courts will assess the division of those assets based on the division of labour inside the marriage. ie. she will claim part of your assets simply by being your wife and "looking after you " !!!
If there are children from the marriage...watch out...!!!! No Pre-nup can ever protect you at Law from being compelled to support your children in a divorce settlement.
If in these circumstances she gets a decent Lawyer, she will get up to 90% of your assets to help with child costs until the child is at least 16 (and maybe older )
The purpose of a pre-nup, that has weight in Law is to define the asset split IF YOU BOTH STARTED WITH ABOUT THE SAME ASSETS. If the difference in the beginning is large...then the pre-nup is worthless when it comes to family Law...Family Law can and will override ANY Pre-Nuptial Agreement...BE WARNED !!
You can pay up to $30,000 for a "good" pre-nup to be constructed by a Lawyer...but it will be worthless unless she brings assets into the marriage along with you.
So please Guys...dont ever think that you can sit safely behind a pre-nup and come out clean if it all goes pear-shaped !!
The moral here...........get it right........
DavidE
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David E. Please do not misunderstand what i ask. What are your qualifications for answering this? I am not being sarcastic or in any way derogatory. I am just curious as you said you were qualified.
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I'd also like to add.A pre nup is not a legal or binding document in China.If one of the signers of the prenup.Is a foriegnor.And a halfe descent divorce lawyer.Can get a prenup thrown out of most cases.If the lady is from another country.
Chong has looked into this real well.He is the guy to talk to about prenups.
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David E. Please do not misunderstand what i ask. What are your qualifications for answering this? I am not being sarcastic or in any way derogatory. I am just curious as you said you were qualified.
MBA (RMIT) LLB (Durham Uni) Bsc (Chem) ,
(LLB is "Licenciate Bachelorum...ie I have a law Degree but I dont work as a practising Lawyer. MBA is a Master Degree in Business Management). My BSc is in Organic Chemistry)
DavidE
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Ok, being a nosey nelly, what does the (RMIT) stand for in your masters? (some kind of Information Technology?).
Impressive qualifications, I bet you don't come cheap!
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Great thread gentlemen. Excellent information. Every time I read a thread like this about a country like China or Japan which I was fortunate to visit Japan a few years ago. They compete for jobs all jobs and when they get one they are glad and proud to have it. They take care of the old folks (Like we are all going to be someday).
Americans were similar A COUPLE CENTURYS ago. And now our gov is just made everyone greeedy and stupid.
After reading this I understand more things now, I sent Li pictures of the house, once her mom wanted to see where she might be living. I admit the place being here at the lake is very cool but the house itself is only like 1300ft 3bd 2 ba Typical rental for a big family we were 6 when I moved here.
And in the Pictures of the front of the house you could see my old Truck and Bass boat both over 20 yrs old sitting out there. And to hear what her Moms comments were you would think I was Rich. I thought she was kidding when she wanted to know if we were really the only family living in the house.
Now after reading all this I know she was serious and it appears most of these people work hard for very little and live a pretty good life.
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After reading this I understand more things now, I sent Li pictures of the house, once her mom wanted to see where she might be living. I admit the place being here at the lake is very cool but the house itself is only like 1300ft 3bd 2 ba Typical rental for a big family we were 6 when I moved here.
And in the Pictures of the front of the house you could see my old Truck and Bass boat both over 20 yrs old sitting out there. And to hear what her Moms comments were you would think I was Rich. I thought she was kidding when she wanted to know if we were really the only family living in the house.
Now after reading all this I know she was serious and it appears most of these people work hard for very little and live a pretty good life.
Jimmy, American houses are huge I think compared to most European standards, dunno about other places.
1300ft is a pretty decent sized house here..and its a detached single family home..by a lake with a boat and truck out front..think about 1 million USD minimum upwards to the sky for something like that here. I bet you actually have a garden that you can mow the lawn and the kids could play in too!
An Irish girl and I bet most UK ones would see $$$ when they saw that not kidding, now ramp that up to an average Chinese persons perspective and you get the picture.
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Ok, being a nosey nelly, what does the (RMIT) stand for in your masters? (some kind of Information Technology?).
Impressive qualifications, I bet you don't come cheap!
Haha...no I and my colleagues in my Business dont come cheap !!!....but we're worth it :):)
RMIT = Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology...which was where I got my Masters.
However...the best qualifications come from the School of Hard Knocks...LIfe !!!
DavidE
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Yep you are right. I have a 1350 Sq. Ft. condo, 2 Bdrm 2 ba. with walk in closets and a 1.5 car garage. You would think, according to Mrs. Burk that it was a palace. What cracked me up was the walk in closets. She asked me if that was the baby's room. The other one had all my clothes in it. Pretty full. She asked me how many other peoples clothes in there.
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Bravo David!
Absolutely brilliant exposition on the Chinese economy - and I for one was not in the least bit bored by your 'dry' economic post; in fact I was completely enthralled by your contribution to the debate.
I think it's worth adding that China is the ONLY major country in the world with an annual demand growth of 8% and, indeed was the only country to achieve that growth over the past year whilst other 'command economies' languished in recession, which, in some cases, is possibly creeping towards depression. So, "not real bad"!!! It's quite incredible - but I think that's what your exclamations were actually saying. Par excellennce! It was a pleasure to read it.
Similarly, your critique on Pre-nuptial agreements is completely spot-on; and I assure you this is a subject that I too am very well qualified to comment on and write about. Fortunately ,you have left me with little to write about as you have, as far as is necessary, written it all! However, I can say with perfect confidence that what you have written is how it is in law.
Again, two points, one to tighten up, the other to address the moral imperative:
Firstly, On the division of assets and: "she will claim part of your assets simply by being your wife and looking after you." The issue here is that "in looking after you" your wife has enabled you to be unfettered in seeking financial gain,reward or success. This is taken by the Courts to be an asset that is brought to the marriage and commands extremely high consideration when Courts make Orders on the division of assets in matrimonial matters.
Secondly, the moral imperative, and I stress that this is purely a personal and very deeply held belief. Marriage is sacred. I do not believe that you should even think about marrying someone who you do not love with all your heart and soul. It follows, therefore, that if you are in that 'state of grace' Pre-nuptial Agreements will not only be repugnant to your thoughts but redundant to your desires. I have never married but when I finally reach that moment, Pre-nuptial Agreement will not even flicker in the southern hemisphere of my mind.
Therefore, David, I say with the greatest of respect to you, that I do not think the moral of your piece is "get it right"; but do it right and do it with decency and compassion - especially where it concerns bringing a foreign woman to a country whose culture and customs she knows little of, and who probably feels afraid and isolated from her family and friends. In these circumstances, in my opinion, a Pre-nuptial Agreement is like having the sword of Damocles hanging over her head.
Lastly, I have gleaned from some of your posts that you consider yourself to be the Forum's cynic. And I say amen to that, and long may your cynicism light up the Forum's pages - I find your posts thought-provoking, educating and, in the case of these last two, quite awesome!
John
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John
Thanks for the kind words...I believe that knowlege is power and every scrap of knowlege we can all glean from each other demonstrates to our "Ladies" that we at least know something about her Country and her Culture and that we have given her the respect to take time and effort to learn such !
I take your point about the marriage situation and I for one, totally agree that the thought of a Pre-nup with the love of my life is completely out of the question...however, horses for courses, some other Bros here may feel different and I wanted them to know categorically that it was not a foolproof "get out of Jail freee card " !!!
There fore I am completely happy to change "get it right" into "do it right with sympathy and compassion"
Cheers
DavidE
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David
Not kind words but sincerely felt and meant words. I share your belief that knowledge is power; only a foolish person would fail to understand, or disagree with, that. I also share your views that we should demonstrate our respect to our ladies by by at least taking the time to learn something about their country, culture and customs. And in fact I'm doing that now with my princess (well, I hope she will be my princess one day) not to impress her but because I genuinely believe it's right and important to do so. And it's obvious that she likes the way I insert Chinese words and phrases in my letters to her - and she responds in the same way - and at the same time it gives me a better understanding of her language. I'm finding it a bit hard going though as Fei (my princess) doesn't think she is any good at writing letters and in fact agrees with me that she lacks confidence. I have tried giving her a few gentle tips: take your time, make a list of the things you want to say and the questions you would like to ask, that sort of thing. But her letters are still relatively short and always start "Dear John" and end "Yours sincerely" - prefaced by "Wish you happy every day!" Still, I far prefer that to some of the Admirer Mails that get posted here! Also, there isn't much warmth in her letters, I don't mean WoAi Ni stuff,but the only times when there have been (quasi) affectionate terms I, embarrassingly, discovered (after I had responded in a similar way!) that they were translator fluff. Oh well, I'll just have to persevere......................
I know where you were coming from on the marriage situation and the moral of your piece, as I sense that you are a 'sensitive' cynic. I just could not resist! Horses for courses for sure, and I'm sure some of the other bros will have a different opinion, I was simply taking the opportunity to state my opinion - in keeping with your Voltaire signature. What I can not comprehend is why anyone would want to bring their Chinese princess to another country, with all that entails, along with the sanctity of marriage, and have the insensitivity to even think about a Pre-nuptial agreement. It simply beggars belief!
I hope you did not misunderstand my intervention and I certainly meant no offence or disrespect to you. In fact, I have been meaning to thank you for the very good advice you gave me when I posted my angst about Fei's profile refresh. It really was extremely helpful, so my belated thanks for that. And, as I have already said, it's an awesome post!
Cheers to you too David.
John
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http://www.chnlove.info/showthread.php?tid=54
A 'pre-nup' thread was started back in April. Here's the link above ... The first post there has a section from the Family Relations law in China.
John wroted ...
What I can not comprehend is why anyone would want to bring their Chinese princess to another country, with all that entails, along with the sanctity of marriage, and have the insensitivity to even think about a Pre-nuptial agreement. It simply beggars belief!
First of all, I'm no lawyer. Thanks David & John for mentioning all those points in the above postings. Some of us brothers are bringing lots of assets into a relationship. In my case, these assets belongs to my Corporation. As a separate entity, I view it as a protection. Of course that's open to argument. It's not about insensitivity, it's about financial reality. If the 'shoe was on the other foot', you wouldn't mind signing a pre-nup if your lady asked you, ... or would you ???
Here's a court case where the ruling was on the man's side ( though he was a dickhead & insensitive ) ...
http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/capital_van_isl/story.html?id=57fd8079-d59d-4441-9ee1-54eb8d6acd9e&k=52332
Here's the Aug 8/2007 article ...
He wooed and married a woman in China but upon returning to Canada decided her immigration was taking too long -- and divorced her.
Joao Americo Serpa was granted his divorce scot-free. Under the judgment, released yesterday in Victoria, Serpa doesn't have to hand over any assets or pay support to his ex-wife, Huang Yueping, even though the judge called his behaviour at times "deplorable."
According to the judgment, Serpa, 63, wrote to Yueping, 52, in early 2003 indicating he was looking for a wife. The two communicated back and forth and in May 2004, Serpa visited her in China.
The two were married in December 2004 and lived together in China for 58 days until Serpa returned to Canada.
In July 2005, Serpa hired an immigration consultant to help Yueping join him in Canada, although he asserted at trial that he had concluded shortly after his return the marriage had been a mistake.
According to Yueping, Serpa told her from 2005 to 2006 that he was completing the paperwork for her to immigrate.
But in March 2006, Yueping learned from a letter sent by the consultant that her husband no longer intended to submit the application for her immigration.
The following month, Serpa himself wrote his wife to say when they married he thought she could "come to Canada soon (quickly) but that is not the case. I'm sorry, I can't wait any longer. I need someone to take care of me now."
In ruling on the case, Justice E. Robert A. Edwards characterized Serpa's lack of candour, particularly his failure to promptly tell Yueping the marriage was over, as lacking in decency, even "deplorable."
But Edwards wrote that the law, as written in the Divorce Act, prevents a court from taking into account misconduct in the marriage.
The Family Relations Act also states a spouse must have use of property for family purposes before it can be divided. Since Yueping never made it to Canada and had no prenuptial agreement, her claim on Serpa's assets was dismissed.
Finally, Yueping failed to provide any medical evidence from China to back up her claim the stress over the uncertainty of her marriage has left her unable to support herself since 2006. So her claim for spousal support was dismissed.
Neither Serpa nor Yueping nor their lawyers could be reached for comment.
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John
No offence taken, I hope we all can feel free to comment on any post without any such worries.
We all have views and opinions and it is up to us as individuals to sift out what we believe fits our own situations.
For me, I dont think I want to have a Pre-nup...it does not sit well with my view of marriage. But I surely concede that some others may have different ideas.
It seems that you are finding the same "minefields" that most of us do in your quest...the Translator "fluff", the difficulty to get to know exactly "who" is this lovely to whom you write. I guess there is no easy answer...just persevere and over time things will become clearer, especially if you can get on to QQ or some such face to face situation.
Before I found this Forum I dived in the deep end and went to China several times to meet Ladies with whom I had corresponded...with very sad results !! Now I am better prepared to do it again, having followed all the good advice I have read from many Bros who have been through the process !! But I concede that there is no guarantee, however good the preparation...because I still am convinced that only when you can experience the personal "chemistry" between each other can you eventually fall in love. I also know that others here have a different view to me on this and some have even proved me wrong and fallen in love at long range...and it worked for them. ...vive la difference !!!
Nevertheless, it is a journey filled with pleasant anticipation, because from this Forum, you can easily see that when you succeed..you have won a prize beyond price :):)
Chong
Thanks for the information about pre-nups.
I think you can see that the example you quote is somewhat bizarre....they never actually lived together, thus in the eyes of the Law did not quite have a "marriage", from which to trigger any joint property settlement. As the Judge rightly pointed out, the Law makes no moral judgement...only applies the Law as it is written. The guy was morally bankrupt, but the Law could not allow her a share of the assets.
Had they lived together for any time however...it could have been a different story.
I think that there is no right or wrong in how any of us want to deal with the property/asset situation, we must all do whatever we feel suits our own situation, financially and emotionally.
What i was only trying to point out is that a pre-nup should never be used as a mechanism to avoid any financial committment in a marriage to a Foreign lady on the basis of "what the hell, if it goes wrong, she cant get my money"...because it may not work that way in the final crunch !!!
DavidE
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To further David's point about financial committment ... I also believe that a pre-nup is to the lady's advantage also. There can be a clause inserted to guarantee her $$$ for spousal/child support in case the relationship doesn't work out. A pre-nup also forces the man to list all his personal assets for his wife's viewing consideration. Though others may disagree, I believe that a pre-nup actually enhances a relationship regarding trust. All it is ... is a future financial planning conversation between two mature adults/spouses. I'm also taking out a term life insurance policy to protect my wife's future care in case something happens to me.
Here in Southern China, ladies using "Auntie" personal match-makers are taught in advance that if they marry a foreigner ... expect to sign a pre-nup.
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Words well said David I have been married twice and lost a lot in both divorces.Each time I have pretty much started fresh.Mysel I still would not do a pre nup.If I was worried about losing anything I had better stay single and play the field .Mariage is about Faith you either have it when you decide the woman is for you or you dont.When I marry I believe in giving my everything heart soul and yes belongings.I f the lady I choose to marry decides to come to my country she has given her every thing up to be with me.Her belongings her family her heart and soul as well.That is how I look at it.What is mine will be hers .Good posts I am enjoying the reading and the answers as well.A very good place to learn.
Ron
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Had they lived together for any time however...it could have been a different story.
It's a moot point, but the article did say that they lived together for 58 days. David ... I agree with your views on this subject ... to each their own.
I wonder if the pre-nup laws are different in Australia as oppose to Canada ... or any other countries for that matter. Any thoughts ?? I was advised to have a pre-nup signed in China and again upon landing in Canada.
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Australia has some of the most rigid Family Laws in the World and they are ruthlessly applied...as any of the other Aussies here will tell you !!
The whole question about pre-nups in Aus is a very vexed issue. Broadly speaking, they are of zero value unless the partners bring more or less equal assets into the Marriage.
They also will have no legal weight if there are children resulting from the marriage.
If I might comment on the case of the Canadian man and the Chinese woman that you mentioned, the 58 days co-habitation would be viewed in Aus as a leagal "short" marriage and she would certainyl got some form of compensation, even for this short time.
But the Woman was not well served by her Legal advisers, as her case was at best flimsy, and at worst unsafe.
If I was to advise her, it would be to ignore the financial settlement as part of the divorce process and seek restitiution in a Civil Suit against him...this would be more likely to succeed on the basis of personal hurt, loss of expectation and even could be considered under the Ancient Statute of "Breach of Promise", which is still legitimate in any Court operating under the British Judicial system....which includes Canada.
I am unsure of the American system, so maybe some American Bros can comment here.
Truly guys, it is an important question we all need to address in our own way, because the consequences of not understanding the way this can all play out are extreme for mature guys who are "starting again"
Both Ron and Chong have different views about it, and they both need to do what suits them...and I think that we all will have our own views too.
There is a lot of merit in how Chong believes that his way will actually enhance his Lady's security, and that is his informed judgement. But the most important thing is that they have both given it some thought and come to their own informed conclusions...cant do much better than that !!!
DavidE
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Now I know that I am the living proof that my wife married me for love and not for the money..
She will leave a very good payed work, 10 000 Yuan per month, when she comes to live with me. She is a Manager for 25 Beauty Parlous in the Hunan Province.
To come to the point.. Chinese people try to invest their money in apartments and houses. This kind of property is their best way of making the money grow. We just bought a apartment in Changsha. The price was about 500 000 Yuan. 1 month later the price have gone up and now it would be 1 000 000 Yuan.... Talking abut making investments.. We will not sell this apartment because we will use it to trade for a better one later. We will have the apartment for renting until we get back..
The rent will be 300 Yuan for each apartment in the house. This is administration costs and some other minor costs.. Electricity and Internet we have to pay for and I don't know what it costs.. Included with the loan we will pay 2800 Yuan per month.. For this we get a 100 square meter big apartment on the 13 floor in a 22 floor big house quite close to the center of Changsha.. For this money I could only get a single room apartment, about 25 square meters big, in Sweden...
All this is made possible through knowing the right people and to have a good face. Face is all that matters in China when you need some good advice in different matters..
As I told you before I am a very lucky man who married a wealthy woman :icon_biggrin:
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Peter,
I know what your saying here about property investment in China, it is very lucrative if you make the investments at the right time. There are drawbacks to property investments, one being the 70 year ''give back'' policy that's presently in force.
The other thing of course, the property is only worth the money someone is prepared to pay for it.
There are several new developments that have been built and are not selling too well, there are many reasons for this, but a major one is that the developers become greedy and ask too much.
So keep an eye on the price of the properties within your apartment block development, you may find that the price will fall again, to a level where they again start selling.
A 100% profit in one month seems just too good to be true, and when somethings too good to be true, it normally isn't!! ...haha!!
The 300 RMB a month, your talking about, ....do you mean a communal charge, for keeping the communal areas clean and in good order along with a service agreement for maintaining the lifts in a safe and working order?? ....If so that is not a bad monthly charge.
Your so right about what that sort of money would get you in any major European countries cities.....
What you describe above, we call a ''bedsit'' lol!!
David....
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David...
I asked my lady what we had to pay for the apartment each month and she said 300 RMB will cover for the apartment. I was told that this is something that everyone who lives there are paying. I am not sure if this include the maintenance but I doubt it does..
Changsha is one of the cities in the "Economic development zone" among with some others. I guess this is why the prices on property have gone up like this. Our thought are to make an investment that we can use later. If the price on apartment will go down so is also the price on the next apartment we will buy. Our investment are for the future when I have retired ( 7 years from now I hope).. I am sure that my wife is doing the right thing about this and she got advices from some people who knows this business. They are also her friends so I don't think they will try to fool us. Anyway we still have a place to live in and it will be close to the Subway they are starting to build in Changsha (who know when this will happen).
A funny thing is that we own our apartment for 100 years.. I wasn't told what happens after 100 years but I will not be there to see :icon_cheesygrin:
Peter
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Peter,
Hahaha!!, so very true, you won't give a dam!! But i was thinking along the lines of inheritance for any children you have/may have!! ....haha!!
Yeah, your right to buy now Peter, your wife and her friends are right in what there telling you. One thing is for sure, the price will only increase, but only in line with what people will or are prepared to pay for that property. (which is all i was pointing out in my last post).
I still find the price increase you stated over the course of 1 month, more than a little hard to believe, ...but hey, i could be wrong.
Over the last 3 years, Lucy has steadily invested our savings into 4 properties in two different city suburbs. The idea being to sell them all in around 5 years or so, purchase a decent apartment for ourself, and invest the rest, that will bring in a decent enough income for us to live very comfortably. Will will then probably divide our time between China, UK and Cyprus. We are constantly looking for an actual house with a decent amount of ground around it to purchase in China, that i can renovate. If we do find one, then that will be our residence rather than an the planned apartment at the moment. But they are very few and far between and not easy to find!!
So as far as i'm conserned, your doing the right thing. One thing, keep an eye on the maintenance of the development, Property developments can go down hill very quickly in China, if there not maintained to a good standard. I think you will find that, that 300RMB a month is the community maintenance charge. If you think about it, that's an awful lot of money when all those 300RMB's are combined. More than enough to keep the community areas clean and tidy and a service contract on the lift installations.....
David....
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For me, I dont think I want to have a Pre-nup...it does not sit well with my view of marriage. But I surely concede that some others may have different ideas.
David
I agree. One has legal agreements as a defensive mechanism, to give you a formal way of sorting out disagreements. If you start out a marriage in this way what does that say about you? A marriage is a leap of faith. It is the triumph of hope and love, over your past experiences and your knowledge that many relationships fail, and fail miserably at that.
And besides it is hardly worth anything at all when it comes to a serious legal battle. The best way to sort out everything is to stay on good terms with the person you are divorcing and negotiate a fair and reasonable settlement. If the 24 hour rule applies to the beginning of relationships, it applies much more for the end of them.
Keep away from lawyers I say.
Danny
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And besides it is hardly worth anything at all when it comes to a serious legal battle. The best way to sort out everything is to stay on good terms with the person you are divorcing and negotiate a fair and reasonable settlement. If the 24 hour rule applies to the beginning of relationships, it applies much more for the end of them.
Keep away from lawyers I say.
Danny
Danny
Completely agree........
Hopefully the "other half" of the divorce can also keep away from smart Lawyers !!!
My Lawyers Bill from my divorce was into 6 figures...and this was AFTER I tried to make a very generous settlement between us. Problem was, she went to a very aggressive Divorce Lawyer who put stars in her eyes (and Bank Account) about what she could get if she REALLY took me to the cleaners. At that time, good relationships between us disappeared like smoke !!
DavidE
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Completely agree........
I get what you're saying.
Sometimes when you're angry with someone, it's better to hold it in. Letting it spill out often makes things worse.
Even if you have good reason to be angry with someone, it's often better to stay remain patient and calm in a difficult situation. It is in your financial and emotional interest, and it's right thing to do as well.
I think what some guys don't get (and I am sure you do) that losing what you own is one thing, but losing your soul is another. I've seen some guys after a divorce so obsessed and bitter about what had happened, that they were no longer the same person . . . so in some ways they had lost everything, outwards and inwards. It's very sad.
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On the other hand, salaries can get extreme. My brother (39 years old) who is working in China right now as an IT Manager/Management just found a job that pays 900K a year in Shanghai. His last job, working for Google, was paying around 400-500K a year. And before you ask, yes he's an expat in China. Raised in China, went to university in Canada, worked here several years and then went back.
Also, apartments are not as cheap as you think. A 120-150 square meter apartment (its all metric baby, no square feet) was looking at 2.0 to 2.2 million around the 4th Ring Road in Beijing (this was him looking a few months ago before finding the new job in Shanghai).
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My apartment in Zhongshan is quite large with two bedrooms andit cost 1200 rmb a calendar month.
I have no idea of the size. To me size doesn't matter it's what you do with it that counts - and I am talking about space.
Since moving in here last month the owner has already renewed the Washing machine and the TV.
Willy
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I see the example in my own life. My father was self employed and realized the value of his income. I had an uncle who made a LOT less but his family was always happy, playing sports together, cards, and other things they did that didn't require money. We were all raised to understand it's not about stuff, but the people you surround yourself with. Because like in the Dickens stories, what good is money if you don't have people you love to share it with?
Just my thoughts. >smile<
I agreed with it, And you can feel different feeling if you live in different cities in China. like my friends said she feel very satisfied about life when she lives in Xiamen, She lose the desire of shopping,it is not like when she lived in Shanghai. Now when she got the thousands of convertible paper which she can use in a shoppingmall,She donn't know what to buy and after shopping she didn't feel happy like before..I can understand her feeling,because you realize shopping is just one of way to find happy,All you do is want to be happy. If you find you can be more happy from another way or feel satified now , then you already know and got what's your chasing for life.
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I read recently that the give back policy was 60 years
still unsure of that one?? your kids just give it back to
the govt? or do they rebuy it at a higher price?
Ted
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I think your talking about property here aren't you Ted, I think you'll find that it's immaterial, as most of the properties won't last that long. You'll also find different areas different rules, the give back can be anything from 55years to 70 years.....
David.....
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Some years ago I use to do engineer planning for sometimes Brownstones in NYC. When the owner wanted a new face front on the building. One of the things I had to check was the erosion of the stones. Most of these buildings were anywhere from 60 to 100 years old. Acid rain doesn't help. Seeing photos of buildings in China, they don't take any care for them so they don't last.
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Vince really shoddy construction.Remeber the schools.That fell down in the last earthquake.I don't think any of there buildings would stand up to a strong earthquake.
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David,
yes your right the house my wife bought 9 years ago is in a buildiing that
is only 10 years old??? looks older than me and thats old.
Ted
It looks older than you and you WANT ME to visit!!!!!!
Must be second to only the Great Wall!!!!!!:icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:
The shopgirls in Zhongshan are missing my 'Baba' !!!!
Willy
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Willy,
very funny hahahaha but i still look good for my age :icon_cheesygrin:
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I just found out last night exactly how much Sophie earns each month. ??? A grand total of 1600 rmb per month :(
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Yes Rob , and that is why they are so thrifty , that is a wage that is quite often bandied about , a Chinese teacher on 2500 rmd a month is not unusual , but then Willy earns that every day ha ha .
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This is quite interesting to read. Almost makes it tempting to sell everything I got and go to China and live a rich guys life there haha. When my life is "only" good here.
But it would take someone special to share it with for me to do something like that. Just a silly thought I got hehe.
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Before you jump and move here make sure you discuss the money upfront in complete detail.
The almighty RMB is so much more important to some of these ladies that they sacrifice real
love for the sake of money.
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The Chinese teachers at my school get 2000rmb a month for full weeks work and they work hard for it too. My wife's daughter is a nurse just out of training and she gets 900rmb a month! ???
Yes Ted some Chinese women are like that but luckily not all. ;D. and I agree being honest and open with them is always the best way to go.
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And even then it still doesnt work out. When they get crazy ideas in their head.
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No of course I'm not gonna do that. But just a silly thought.
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This is quite interesting to read. Almost makes it tempting to sell everything I got and go to China and live a rich guys life there ha ha. When my life is "only" good here.
But it would take someone special to share it with for me to do something like that. Just a silly thought I got he he.
It's not a bad Idea if you are just moving as a young man want to see the world so to speak.
But if you have a Chinese wife before you do it. Pay close Attention to what ted has told you here.
Most Chinese people believe all men from the west are rich. Especially Americans.
I have in the past 2 years seen 3 marriages go down the tubes. Simply because the wife was led to believe something that was not true.
And the big problem is they all listen to their friends. And for some stupid reason, they will believe the friend that has never been out of town hardly, Instead of the husband that has lived in the country all his life. And they all want to out do each other. It is very sad but it happens.
If you want to check out living in China. First always make sure you have a ride home anything can happen. Second don't sell all your stuff, If after you get here and like it for a year or more then consider it. Third research everything before you go. Have a plan. Have job interviews in place before you leave home. Don't just pack up and go.
It sounds romantic and all but it is totally ignorant.
You know my story with my daughters and all. I promised them if they really need me. I will be home in 48 hours. It would cost a fortune, But that money will never be spent I hope. Be prepared for anything. And don't act on emotion think things through, And if your brain is out of whack as all of ours do from time to time. Use the 24 hour rule and ask some friends here, They have helped me in some really bad times.
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Well put Jimmy, you must give it some great thought and planning. But as you said they then listen to their idiot freinds
and tell them what it is really like in YOUR country but they havent been outside of the countryside all their life in China.
Its sad but they will believe a CHINESE person over you. I was once told that chinese people dont lie. It is bred into them
because of their poor status and poor country that for the most part many will lie, cheat and steal for the almighty RMB.
But you have to give them credit they have to do this because their country offers them nothing you either save to quit
working or you have to work all your life or the kids take care of them. Its pretty sad but thats China. So if you make this
journey put it all on the table. Then if you have to walk away you do it with your head held high and it soesnt matter what
the crazy lady says about you.
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No of course I'm not gonna do that. But just a silly thought.
I had that same silly thought in April 2009 and two months later fulfilled it and never regretted it once. The past 17 months have just slipped by so quickly. To quickly for me.
But then you really have to be prepared to accept the way things are here and not try to live here like a foreigner on holiday. Forget the Western Food.
Forget missing your home town, your friends and everything else you just have to settle to a new life here.
I get stared at - of course and I love it. In the UK I could walk past people in the street with a hatchet stuck in my chest and no one would notice me. Here I feel like a celebrity, everywhere I go people see and stare.
I have a good income but my wife still wants to work for 1200 rmb a month. It is just natural here. I save a good deal every month.
Another friend started a business whilst employed by a company. She earns 3500 a month from her day job and will not give it up because in 15 years she will get a pension of the same amount!!!! BUT her business has grown and she now has 8 shops, all with managers and her net profit last year was 400,000 rmb after tax but still she goes to work every day and does the shop business in her two hour lunch and after 6pm at night.
Willy
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Ted,"I was once told that Chinese people don't lie. It is bred into them because of their poor status and poor country that for the most part many will lie, cheat and steal for the almighty RMB."
The majority of the Chinese people I have met and the many I now count as friends are not like this at all and would be very offended at the idea of being called thieves or liars. I find them on the whole much more trustworthy than western people. One or two have been less than honest but that is a very very small minority when compared to the friendship and hospitality that the majority have shown to me here over the past year or so. I find the county neither "poor "or of "low status" but rich and vibrant. Just my observations...............
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I agree with Paul. Just walk around and see what is left outside shops all day. It that was in the UK and no doubt the USA the items would not last 5 minutes.
And what they did not want they would kick down the street just for a laugh.
That does not happen in the main in China. They have more respect for people and property than any other nationality I have ever come across. And I have been to nearly 50 countries in my lifetime.
Maybe Ted has had a different personal experience during his time in China.
Willy
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I agree with Paul. Just walk around and see what is left outside shops all day. It that was in the UK and no doubt the USA the items would not last 5 minutes.
And what they did not want they would kick down the street just for a laugh.
That does not happen in the main in China. They have more respect for people and property than any other nationality I have ever come across. And I have been to nearly 50 countries in my lifetime.
Maybe Ted has had a different personal experience during his time in China.
Willy
I don't know Willie seeing all those vending machines just sitting along side the road in the middle of nowhere and not be vandalized in Japan was pretty impressive.
Real similar to China just a lot cleaner.
And one of the things I have noticed in both countries. People do some jobs the western people would be insulted to take. And they are very proud to have them.
Where the westerner would rather be on welfare.
If you could take the best parts of each culture and put them together. Man what a great world it could be.