China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => Ask An Experienced Member => Topic started by: David E on November 19, 2009, 04:29:08 am
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Despite the large BUMP we had when we had one go at trying to make some sense out of any sort of rule that would help Bros to better understand the point at which the use of EMF's was getting to the Red-flag stage and maybe even in to scam, we never got to explore enough viewpoints to seriously address the issue.
I am sure that we all know it is one of the big ticket questions that get asked time and time again..."am I being scammed......when should I get off EMF's"
So with your permission I would like to re-open the question and get as much feedback as possible...maybe there is a rule here, maybe not...but the subject is worth exploring.
In summary from where we got to last time:
We seem to agree, at some point in time there is a PROBABILITY (not a certainty) that we are being taken for a ride with endless exchanges of EMF's that are going nowhere.
We seem to think that it is difficult to put a time frame on a relationship that is developing.
We seem to think that to put a number on the EMF quantity is fraught with the same difficulty.
We have enough evidence to know that the practise of "gouging" us with EMF's that are fake/fluffed/ does happen with some Agencies.
We have enough evidence to know that there is a strong resistance to getting natural photos and QQ or face-to-face time with some Agencies/Ladies
On the other hand.........
There are some Bros who have managed their whole relationship from first contact to happily married entirely on EMF's
There are some Agencies that seem to be very easily disposed to use QQ or such...and many who resist it.
So I would ask for opinions as to whether or not there seems to be a need for a rule, or something tangible that Newbies (and Oldies) can use as a guide as to when to begin to get suspicious about the length of the EMF correspondence.
Can I please ask that we dont get hostile about this question...it is only meant for some research and to make our Forum more valuable.
So dont jump all over me this time...........because you all know it is a very topical question and gets asked a lot...and we dont have any where near as good a reply to it as , for instance, we have with the Maxx 24 hour rule.
Acknowlegement to Ronan who thought of the concept...and thanks in advance for all the replies that will arrive.
DavidE
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When to get off EMFs? My opinion is that when you are sufficiently interested in one lady you will stop talking to others. That is a good time to move away from EMFs being the sole means of communication. It took me about 5 EMFs to realise my lady was special. After that a Skype session established that she looked like her photos and what her voice sounded like, her level of English, and QQ established a lot about her personality.
Of course this may not suit everyone - plenty of guys keep several ladies on the go but this really would melt my brain.
I think our problem is also that agencies have wildly different operating practices. In my case our agency is great, and my lady offered her contact details without me having to buy them through chnlove. Not all agencies would do this.
Beyond that there are so many variables (lady's English level, lady's job, computer literacy of man and lady, lady's discomfort with not knowing English, lady's comfort with the EMF system etc. etc. etc.) that a cast iron rule is difficult.
Finally I'd just like to add that a girl in work knows a guy who got his Thai wife simply through sending letters to each other. They'd never met in person before they married and yet they've been together for years :icon_cheesygrin:.
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I am the last person to vent on here...
However I can see merits in what David is trying to achieve. As with what you say Brett about all the variables, this too I can totally understand.
But I also believe that there should be some sort of 'time' limit. As you know I suffered as well as others through this system of just Emf's. I can I suppose take some of the blame as I have already said, I saw the red flags and either choose or was blind to them?
If I was now starting over in Chinalove, and remember I read everything before starting (I would again), then I WOULD definately set my self some time limit, be it 2 months or 5 months, which by any streach of the imagination is time enough for 2 people to get to know each other. This is not because I have already been ther, IT is because it's well documented that it HAPPENS
I am going to give you an example of something here. I was in touch with a lady in Lionning for 2 months before Keren. Within a MONTH WE KNEW (possibly) everything we could about each other. We had spoken about a webcam visit with each other and she was agreeable This lady I must give her, her just dues, she approached her father on the 8th week and I got the same result as I got with Keren (who kept telling me 'not ready, can't go to internet cafe, not safe'. Cost to me a bit of money, well about 40 emf's worth? Cost with Keren a fortune. To someone who does not earn much (and I mean Much), that is not fine. But also, how can you 'cost' the emotional disappointment and hurt you feel when it happens after so long?
Don't get me wrong I very probably will do this again, because I'm stupid... but also... because some people just don't learn. i mentioned something in a post many months ago, and I said that Chnlove should have it in their contracts with the ladies, that they MUST do some other form of contact. Unfortunately this cannot be done because it may be hard to implament, but I STILL believe that if a company as large as Chnlove is serious about making money, then I am positive they would get a lot more people...More people, more revenue, simple stats prove this theory...
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Greetings Brothers,
Well David E you are either a glutton for punishment or a very persistent soul ( yes I am messing with you).
I think a guide or reference would be a good idea. For many the problem is that the issues remain from the first go round. Every man and every lady is different. Each has a different tolerance level for what they can commit to or put up with . Add in shady agencies and translators, men who demand to much too soon and scare the ladies, or ladies who jump to the marriage before the first date, and it becomes extremely difficult to set anything down firmly. Also each man here and lady too for that matter is going to base things on their own perceptions and experiences, and as we all know what works for one may not work for the next.
Also our comfort level with the english language and also that of your lady and even teh translator can seriously affect the outcome. Yes a webcam makes it much easier to see who your lady is, what she looks like some body and facial language etc, but in the end its still a translator interpreting both way s for the lady. If your translator is honest and has good english skills a webcam can be a wonderful thing, however if the translator is not skilled or is working from a different agenda a webcam can be a difficult painful process.
Also lets not forget the time difference.When a webcam was convenient for Zhen at 8:30 pm it was most certainly inconvenient for me at 6:30am alberta time or 5:30am BC time. For the lady she probably has t go to the agency to do it and that adds more incovenience for her. So again until she feels enough commitment from the emf she may resist the inconvenience of doing the webcam.
All in all I support the idea of some kind of guide or reference, the only issue is making it relevant for enough and general enough for it to be a valid exercise.
Sincerely,
Zhen and Brian
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Greetings Brothers,
Well David E you are either a glutton for punishment or a very persistent soul ( yes I am messing with you).
Haha...no, Brian, I am not a glutton for punishment, but I think I can claim a tad of persistence.....in the face of daunting odds !!!!
I only have one objective and that is to find out all I can to make the search for a Chinese Bride as painless and rewarding as possible.
I only began to understand something about the "tricks and traps" after finding this Forum.
I got to thinking recently that the mountain of information here from hundreds of Bros and thousands of posts can cut both ways...yes, it is all good, but it is all so fragmented and random.......thats what we do, it is a free and open debate and discussion platform.
To a Newbie, we basically advise "go and read everything here and give it a go" !!
Firstly, to read everything here is a monumental task and would take weeks now with the sheer size of the Forum. Secondly, you would come away after such a read with a giant headache and a sense of utter confusion as to what to do now.
About the only DEFINITIVE advice on this Forum is the Maxx 24 hour rule...something you can see. feel and touch...so to speak.
If , for instance, a Newbie read only the "Brian and Zhen" posts., then he would be led to believe that the whole process was a walk in the Park and so easy.
If , on the other hand he reads the "Scottish Rob and Keren" posts, or the experiences of Sameldrum, he would be left in complete shock/horror about how impossibly difficult the whole thing is.
And if he reads Willy's posts he would be left with the impression that what you need to do is to get 3 suitcases of Viagra, go to live in China, bonk half the female population and then find your beloved !!
And there are a multitude of variations on these extremes.
And we all know that the average truth wil lie somewhere in between...after you get through the minefield of EMF's, Fluff, QQ and on and on and on.
If all of us here are at all interested in A) Finding our life partner and B) Helping others to do the same, then we have some responsibility to become a bit more professional as to how we go about achieving this objective, If all we need from this Forum is a place to randomly post anything and everything without any structure, then we will eventually wither and die and cease to be a useful place because the information base becomes too huge and fragmented.....especially for those who come for a look-see.
My thoughts were that there are some critical issues that need a consolidated or consensus view so that we can offer a precise, punchy and responsible "Rule" for general consumption...hence this survey.
If the Group decision is negative...so be it, we had a try.
But if there is some merit in trying to lift our game, then we should make the effort.
For my Career, I make a lot of money and spend most of my time getting large, diverse Management Groups in Busines and Commerce to get together and "pull on the same end of the rope" for the greater good
Our Forum behaves more and more like a bloody good Business, that has a bloody good product but has not got a clue about marketing !!!!
My 2 cents worth
DavidE
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Hoorah David. I'm behind your efforts and you are headed a direction I think is good.
Thank you for taking this on again. I am thinking about what input I might have.
Shaun
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David,
maybe instead of rules, we should talk about risk.
Maxx's rule is a rule, because it is applicable in so many situations.
A high risk may be writing a lot of EMFs to a bad agency, where the woman is 20 years younger than you, when you have no direct contact, when you haven't visited your lady in China, or maybe haven't visited China at all. It could work, but there is a high risk that it won't.
A low risk would be where you have visited your lady, you have regular direct contact with her, and you may be using EMFs occasionally, or not at all. It could be a scam, but it is a low risk.
Defining high risk and low risk does not mean you can make a rule that applies in every situation, but it can provide a guide to newbies (and oldies)
A rule would have too many exceptions. A risk is a guide.
What do you think?
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What we need to figure out here.Is how to.Stop the other members from being blinded by.The eys candy.And the flowery words from the translaters.
We have all read the sad stories.Most of you know what this feels like when it happens.So how do we stop.The new members being dragged down this road?
Alex keep going.I think you are on to something here.
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Ok...we seem to have sparked a litle interest :):)
Brett...we are not talking about "cast iron" rules...only critical guidelines in defined areas of the "chase".
For instance, you mentioned that you were convinced after 5 EMF's
Others have written hundreds !!!
It seems that for those "lucky" enough to find someone who they want to go further with, within a few EMF's dont have any problem at all....and that is good.....this maybe a combination of Him/Her/A Good Agency who facilitates the whole process.
What we are looking for is a moment in time where you should be thinking very hard about where a particular relationship is going.
In terms of advice we can offer to Newbies...something in the order of " When you have shared enough information in EMF's to feel that you wish to take the relationship to another level, it is important to positively make an effort to get onto a face-to-face situation via QQ, or MSN or similar"
Reluctance on her part at this stage should be regarded with some concern.
BTW...Brett......I know that the friend of my Cousins, milkmans' , Aunties', next door neighbors' hairdresser was found a wife by his parents and married her without question..................he was Indian and that is OK in his culture...........but I dont think many of us here want to go down that track !!!
Keep it coming folks...(as the Bishop said to the Actress !!!!)
DavidE
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My first trip, like many others, was a high risk, and it didn't work out.
If we define high risk and low risk and medium risk, we come up with a continuum of risk. Then each member can do a risk assessment of where they are on that continuum. Then, using the power of free choice, they can make an informed decision about whether they are happy to live with that risk, or they want to change something. Personally, after my first experience, I didn't want to live with that risk, so I told the four ladies I was writing to, that if they didn't want to go to direct contact after the exchange of 10 EMFs, then, regrettably, I would have to cease contact. 1 dropped out immediately, 3 remained. I chose 1. That was my risk assessment. Others will make a different decision with that level of risk.
So, if this is a good idea, all we have to do is come up with examples of high, medium and low risk.
Then we have Maxx's rule and David's risks
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Yep Alex
Your thoughts add another relevant dimension to this critical issue...
Something like an advisory that says :
Low risk:
Small Age difference
Aknowleged good Agency
EMF content and quality
Natural photos supplied
etc etc etc
High risk:
Big age difference
Suspect Agency
EMF's generic, not answering questions
Photos not natural
Refuses natural photo exchange
etc etc etc
If we can get far enough down this track so the most of us here can get enthusiastic about how it is developing, then we can ask the Mods to start a locked thread along the lines of:
"How to begin "??
or
"Critical risks"
or whatever
Thanks for that
Jim
Can we think about getting serious about naming the "bad" Agencies...we know for sure Changsha Love Bridge would head up the list...any others come to mind ??
We need to be careful here because we could fall into the trap of condemming an Agency based on somebodys single bad experience. But it is very worth exploring
DavidE
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Low risk:
Small Age difference
Aknowleged good Agency
EMF content and quality
Natural photos supplied
etc etc etc
High risk:
Big age difference
Suspect Agency
EMF's generic, not answering questions
Photos not natural
Refuses natural photo exchange
etc etc etc
I like the idea of risk rating. Also perhaps a list of questions to ask yourself, if you answer "yes" to more then XX number of the XX following questions you might be in a high risk situation.. etc.
There are just things that are challenging to the long distance relationship thing. I've not gone to China to meet a lady yet, but I have done the internet dating thing here in the US with Western women. Now before we get into a long tangent about Western women, the reason I bring this up is that there are some givens in any aspect of a relationship when you use this medium as the launching point.
Some of the things I learned on this board are:
- "Make a commitment that this is what you are going to do."
- You aren't going to be successful in this on the cheap"
- Read, read, and read some more and learn what you can from other brothers experiences. (both good and bad)
- Understand that there are also risks for the ladies on their end and be understanding that this is a two way street.
Also keep things in perspective. How much are you paying in EMF's to get to know a lady over six months time compared to how much you would spend on a lady in your home town buying dinners, paying to sit for two hours holding her hand while watching flickering pictures on the wall...
Ok, I think I'm getting a little long winded here, but the bottom line is follow your gut, and get advice from brothers before making a huge decision.
There might not be a way to make this into a "RULE" but I am sure that a good general board posting that would give new brothers valuable insight can be developed here.
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David, prepare for debate please, I love your thought-provoking thread.
In my opinion, it's already a concession to take burden to worry about the time limit of EMFs. Ideally, EMF is a product male and female members are using together. And the decision as to whether and when to use it should be mutually made. Even though it is paid only by one side, let's consider the example of income tax, both employers and employees are actually under the burden. So like Brain said, particular time limits should depend on individual couple if we can trust the system.
And your concern is mainly about the scams of EMFs and your effort is mainly for brothers to sort out them. My ideally best solution to this problem would always be to make Chnlove thoroughly more credible. It is possible but perhaps needs overall effort of a lot more people than members we have on this forum. So an expedient solution seems necessary for those who are aware of the risk yet still wants to make a try.
Now to the EMF issue, I will discuss it in two situations. The first is where you are almost sure of a prospective future between you and the lady. The best time-line, considering the interest of the lady, is after your first in person meeting. Meeting itself is more important than any amount of EMFs. Only when you propose to meet her, the lady feels your true sincerity. The sense of keeping EMFs going before meeting lies here, the money you paid is another sign of your commitment, and perhaps devotion (It's understandable for ladies to guess, with free communications a man could have much more choices than with EMFs) .
When you have an uncertain feeling of the EMFs, situations are more complicated. The difficulty of drafting a rule similar to that of Maxx is the tradeoff. The worst outcome of following Maxx's rule is gaining nothing but you will not lose anything. But if we are going to set a time limit of EMFs going, I feel the duty to point out the risk of sorting out true love seeds as well as scams. Before going on, I want to quote a sentence you wrote in which you said you want to help brothers to find a more painless and rewarding way to find a China bride. It's indeed an efficient idea and echoes within many brothers' hearts I believe. More interestingly, it coincides with the fact that many Chinese women want to find a western husband painlessly and rewardingly. The only problem is, what if these two wishes confront each other?
Similar to your drafting risk rating system, I believe there are already some risk rating systems formed by ladies and agencies together, perhaps not in written form but in practical use for long.
Low risk:
stable and frequent EMFs exchange,
high quality EMF writing,
eagerness for meeting,
confirmed air-tickets before meeting ( to make sure the man is coming only for her),
etc
High risk,
met or dated chinese women before,
infrequent EMFs exchange,
eagerness to get off EMFs,
reluctant or evasive when discussing meeting,
no confirmation of air-tickets
etc
It is possible when we are trying to sort out risks, we ourselves are appearing a risk.
But I fear the percentage of scam letters greatly outnumbers genuine but insufficiently "warm" ones, so the more urgent mission, I agree with you, is to give people advice to distinguish them. As to how? I believe as soon as one has enough stuff to suspect, he has very little to worry, because the relationship will probably break.
PS, You are very wise to be aware of the possible unfair condemnation of agencies out of individual experiences. I just want to point out possibility of opposite situations, and moreover, if our forum does get that influential, possibile undercover lobbyists from agencies.
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Proteus I have to agree almost wholeheartedly with David on this...
There is ONE MAJOR FLAW TO YOUR ARGUEMENT and it comes from your OWN mouth.
"...If we can trust the system..." You are a FORMER ( I think, or still working with them I'm not sure) translator. You know in your heart that the system cannot be trusted... At least be honest with us !!!
Not only that, there are a possible few others. Please read on...
WE can not do this wholeheartedly because the members who are being scammed far out weigh the ones who are not... If this persists there will be (I'm assuming) more members quit in disgust. The only way around this is for the Chnlove membership worldwide was to stand up and be counted in a defient "NO MORE" But thinking about it how can this be achieved?
Point one. You also mentioned the ladies low risk and high risk scenarios. In my situation, as I'm sure with others, 'WE HAVE BEEN IN THE LADIES LOW RISK" yet we still get scammed so there goes one of your arguments out the window.
Point number two. The eagerness to get off Emf's, does not hold water, because, SURELY the lady can see the benefit to her, if the MAN does not have to spend all the money on letters. She would gain and the reason for this is, Chinese ladies are FRUGAL with money...
Point three. Which in your point system is a low risk. High quality letters. I am sure that MOST men here send almost the entire allocation of words to the ladies, I believe you will find, if you care to check, that it is the Ladies/Translators who do not reply with high quality letters. They are, and this again COMES from your mouth, Fluffed up...Maybe that wasn't the word you used, nonetheless, it meant the same...
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Rob ... three excellent point's there . One can NOT argue with those . Who knows better then yourself ?
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Seems to me, that the onus of being seen as serious and wanting a lasting relationship and doing all the running (so to speak) to make the relationship work, has been put squarely on the the side of the man. Now i may be a little old fashioned in my outlook here, but shouldn't that also be the ladies aim too. If that being the case, then like the men here, the ladies should be wanting and doing everything possible to further enrich and progress there relationship, by using every means possible, that's open to them. In other words, they should be giving just as much energy, and showing just as much interest as there man is giving to the relationship.
I'm afraid, in the majority of cases, that just doesn't seem to be happening!!!
David......
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Proteus, it is rather disingenous to bring in the risk of agencies and to equate them with the ladies.
We will get nowhere if we consider everyone's level of risk! What next? Translator's level of risk? No, this is about the men on this forum, and particularly the newbies. We have to start from the assumption that the majority of men on this forum are looking for a genuine, serious relationship. So, we wouldn't even come in under the radar of the high-risk for the ladies.
I work with disabled children. Every time we go on a trip, however short, we make a risk assessment for them. There are many risks. Does that mean we don't go? Of course not. But we are aware of the risks and we plan what we do if those risks become reality. This is all I'm suggesting. EMFs represent a risk. Fact. Sustained EMFs without direct contact represent a higher risk. This is borne out by experience. For anyone new coming to this site, to hear that guys like Arnold and Brian found their soulmates via EMF does not conflict with a handy guide to ther kind of risks to watch out for. We talk about red flags because we can see them. But EMFs by their very nature have just as much potential to scupper a relationship, precisely because their are so many conflicting agendas at work.
Let me use a hypothetical example: I am new to this site. I have been writing to my lady for 6 months purely via EMF and I have booked my flight to see her in a month's time. It would be of limited benefit to tell me to read all the posts. More useful would be if someone pointed me towards a thread which outlined the levels of risk. Forewarned is forearmed. I would see that my situation was at the higher risk end and I would make my own decision based on that information. Maybe I would ignore it. Maybe I would politely push for a natural photo or a webcam. But it would be an informed decision.
There could be a short statement at the beginning saying that some guys have found their love after using only EMFs, and there are many guys who have gone all the way to China and found they have been scammed.
There are a number of reasons why it doesn't work first time for many guys: lack of understanding about Chinese culture, unrealistic expectations, too large an age difference, parental disapproval, etc. But I bet the biggest reason is something to do with the imbalance caused by the agencies' control of the relationship largely as a result of the EMFs.
To me, the question isn't 'why do it?' Rather, it's 'Why not do it?'
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Excellent debate now...there is some "gold-plated" ideas and viewpoints coming through !!
Key point....dont forget it :
We are CHNLove's clients...despite other words previously written here...WE. repeat WE are CNLove's clients...not their Ladies. Without US, CHNLove would not have a Business.
But Bros here are NOT the mainstream Dick-Heads and loonies and pervs who start up a correspondence with Chinese Women. We are a tiny percentage of the overall EMF cash flow for CHNlove and its Agencies. To be part of this Forum is to demonstrate a level of sincerity about the task ahead...our Mods and the Bros do a great job of keeping the Forum clean of Pervs etc.
We are suffering in the overall "descent to mediocrity" that CHNLove tolerates and probably encourages.
We can see NO logical or realistic reason why any Lady we correspond with over time, does not wish to move the relationship to another level...personal emails, QQ etc...either the lady is a fraud (??) or the Agency is driving this to keep EMF's going. Either way...lack of personal contact is a HIGH risk situation.
If the only way we can demonstrate that we are serious is to buy an air ticket.......that is HIGH risk for us, without knowing exactly WHO we are going to meet.
David50 makes the point...why should ALL the responsibility be on our shoulders to make this work..does not the Lady have some responsibility to share the journey ?? Again, the notion that we do all the work is putting us into HIGH risk area.
That we are all judged as pervs until we buy an air ticket is fundamentally flawed and again puts ALL the risk on us.
Proteus....
You suggest that there is an informal risk assessment situation now used by Agencies/Ladies and it is interesting to see what categories you consider in the High risk area.
I am surprised that prior visits and meetings with other Ladies can be seen a high risk ??...High committment ...wrong lady I think is more appropriate.
And why do you consider eagerness to get off EMF's and on to personal communication a high risk...do you mean high risk to CHNLove revenue !!!!! I would think this shows committment again, to move the relationship to another level.
And finally, why is a reluctance to confirm air tickets seen as high risk. If we cant get open and honest communications, with a lady who we KNOW is real and through letters that we KNOW are not modified by Agencies...then why would WE take the risk of wasting an air fare...but more important, getting emotionally slammed when we take all this expense, time and trouble to meet someone WHO IS NOT WHAT WE WERE LED TO BELIEVE. ???
And I am led to believe that the purchase of an air ticket is a trigger point in the Ladies Contract with her Agency ?...it triggers a payment by her to the Agency..........is that why you suggest an early purchase of a ticket is low risk ???????????
In summary, all that you suggest as risk assesment for the Agencies/Ladies is exactly in reverse to the risk assessment we have to consider...and WE are the clients...our risk must prevail.
I dont want to get off track, but my OWN personal experiences reinforce where we are at in the HIGH risk arena.
Before I found this Forum, I communicated with 4 ladies from CHNLove.....(one at a time by the way). I am a reasonable writer and I truly think my EMF's were interesting, articulate and comprehensive. I wrote daily and never did the expense of EMF's stop me diligently writing on this daily basis. And I sent lots of REAL photos of me, my home, my City and my family.
In due course, I made the decision to go to China to meet her...this after at least 4 months of EMF's....so I was not "jumping the gun" and I thought that was enough time to get to know each other prior to the visit.
On my arrival...the Lady was NOTHING like the photos, the photos were a travesty of the real woman..her height was wrong, her weight was wrong, her age was wrong...........despite her profile saying she was "learning English", she had not one word of English. The translator came with her to meet me at the airport and when I challenged the "fraud"..I got fobbed off with embarrassed smiles and excuses about "but she really is a lovely woman" ETC ETC ETC....I felt betrayed and angry and humiliated.
Thinking that I had had one bad experience, I came home, licked my wounds and began again...with a different Agency.
To cut a long story short....with exactly the same result. !!!
Being as I am persistent as well as stupid, I tried for the third time...yep, you guessed it !!!
Now, each of the 3 women (I wont go into the fourth because she was an out an out gold-digger) would have married me..no problem..because I presented EXACTLY as I had described in my letters and photos.
So who was at risk...ME. The only risk they and the Agency had was to feel my anger. I paid all the money in good faith, I entered the relationship with honesty and integrity, and I got the practical and emotional blast when it came to reality.
So, Proteus..there is NO risk for the Ladies...either they meet a Man who will marry them, or they dont, but they can just go ahead with the next bloke on the list. The Agency has got all the money, both from me and her..so they have NO risk.
So who got shafted here..me , the Ladies or the Agencies ?????? Who took all the risks and who paid all the price for taking too many HIGH risk decisions....??? Your response is awaited with interest.
Quod erat demonstrandum !!!!!!!!
DavidE
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Just to add my piece on this. Recently I actually met one of the ladies that I had originally been in contact with on emf.
Having gone through the forums and bearing in mind the comments I decided that she was too good to be true.
How wrong I was - she was as beautiful as she looked on the website. Her level of English was good and the flowery words that I put down to the translator following advice gleaned from these pages, were in facts her own as she used this style of English in everyday speech.
Although I am happy with the lady I have been seeing for the past three months there was of course - the 'what if' thought that crossed my mind.
This lady is now in regular correspondence to an Englishman from another site so I cannot introduce her to anyone here but are the members fears giving a negative impact to newbies to this site?
Willy
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Willy
Fully agree with your caution....we tread a fine line here now between informed decisions and sheer fright !!
Newbies could well be thinking that the whole thing is an impossibility, too complex for anybody to make work.
I hope we can get the balance right, where the issue of definition of risk does not squash the whole idea of finding a Chinese Bride...but rather points out that it is not so simple as may be thought by reading CHNLoves "blurb" !!
On the evidence of Bros like yourself and many others who have got through all this and found your Beloveds....we can easily present the other side of the coin...despite the risks, it is very possible
Thanks
davidE
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We need both sides. Both the happy endings and thr failures. Both the stories of great ladies and honest agencies and those of BS ladies and fraud agencies. The thing about stories like David E's is that it makes at least me question my relation to my lady based on David's experiences. Maybe that is an entirely good thing because none of us should live in a fantasy world here, go to China and get ripped like that. None of us deserve that kind of behavior after all the energy, time, effort and money we have put into this. To cut it short: I'd rather be suspicious and careful than naive and foolish. We should calculate with the possibility of complete failure. So one of the rules should be: Hope for the best and plan for the worst when you go. That is my plan for December at least.
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Thank you everyone. You made me realise the untimeliness of my opinions. I'm trying to sell umbrellas on a brightly sunny day, while risk of scams are obvious and major, and risks of losing a real lady is only potential and minor. But please allow me to stick to my stubborn idea. Repairing the atmosphere will help us avoid ultraviolate ray while wearing sun glasses can do less. So I perversely hope the thread started by Peter (pr1969) can win more popularity than it has now.
Jim, your topic is beyond my wisdom of love to discuss. To advance or to withdraw is a very subtle decision to make at some equally subtle points of a love affair. And you are being too tolerant to translators. They are doing much more than overlooking.
Alex, about risk rating. I just want to point out one word, interactive. I will explain it later more detailed when replying David.
Rob and David, first I want to discuss the topic of effort you all mentioned. You and the ladies are on equal status since you are both clients to some business orginisations, on your side, Chnlove, on the ladies' side, different agencies. Yet the peculiar mechanism of chnlove determines efforts are not equally laid upon each side, otherwise the fees of EMFs would have been paid by both sides, such as in the case of match.com. This seemingly unfair effort distribution is successful so far with chnlove and a lot other sites, such as cherryblossom, comes from this fact, it is generally accepted for men to pay more, in terms of money, in trying to build a relationship with a lady. But at least we can expect women to devote equally as we do in some aspects with no concern of money, such as prompt and decent response of EMFs, genuine interest in establishing direct contact? Surely they should. It is when they plan to pursue an overseas relationship painlessly and rewardingly, they fail to do so. The most seemingly painless and rewarding way for a woman, is to keep two or three men on her hook at the same time and meet them one after one to choose the best. I am not sure how often this method is practiced, but after stunned by your unfortunate experience David, I think I can let my speculation go a little wilder and say, more often than not. It is dishonest but indeed logical a way. Most women who joined an agency would as least be mentioned about it, I suppose. If on our side, we are keeping driving on this "painless and rewarding" road, what an end will we head for? Of course I'm sure our moral overrunning governor will function soundly. Just another untimely warning.
Now let's come to risk. I managed to find something to illustrate the rating system I mentioned before. I found some stuff from 14 articles which experienced colleagues of my agency wrote to ladies and new translators to read (by the way, Rob, I no longer work there or in this trade since mid-June).
In one article,
Types of different foreign men.
a?????
b??????????
c????????????????????????????
d???????????????????????????????????????
e?????????????????????????????????????
f?????
a. gentleman,
b. naive, very casual and even careless,
c. men with frenzy for love
d. interested but unable, in other words, poor or not willing enough to overcome the barriers between languages, distance and cultures.
e. men with a lot of doubts, in other words, he doubts motivation of the lady, doubts the possibility of maintaining a long distance relationship and has other specific doubts in every letter.
f. arbitrary men
The woman who wrote these concluded that the former three types are low risk targets, and the later high risk and should be tested as early as possible or simplly given up.
In another article, another woman further listed some types of men to be warned against.
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?????????????????
???????“???”???????
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???40?????????????
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1. business men
2. men with great bias of China
3. men not legally divorced or just divorced
4. men who jump into intimate topics too soon
5. men who say love too soon
6. men with a lot of doubts
7. men with little self-confidence
8. very self-oriented men
9. men who have never married when they are already over 40
10. men who are unable to visit China
11. very busy men
Some of the options make sense and some not. We can also see the two lists overlap in some options, especially that of doubts. On the whole, I myself disagree with them as much as or perhaps even more than you do. Ironically, the absurdity of their criterion comes from their own doubts. I only want to point out that, if we let our risk rating system be filled with many doubts too, ours might seem as ridiculous to ladies or bystanders.
Now I would like to return to the word interactive. A major difficulty of finding a satisfactory product from chnlove is its difference from a second car market. In the later one, we can bargain bargain and bargain, with shrewdness to win a trophy, perhaps despite even slight resent of the car dealer. But here, in most cases, to offer is a gesture to proceed and to start bargain untimely may serve an opposite aim to what we expect.
About your claim that much more risks, if not entirely, are placed upon men, I agree with you generally, otherwise I should have devoted more effort in helping ladies. But as long as ladies don't agree with us, our opinions make little sense. To let you have a glimpse of their psychology. In their opinion, their age is a diminishing value while men's is less likely; they are more vulnerable after moving to a totally strange country and if being abused, little can they do with little legal knowledge or kinship support, etc.
So let me ask this bold question, especially to you, David. Why still chnlove? I feel as much humiliated as you do for some people of my country have some such loathy deeds to you. Do Chinese women really possess that irresistible attractiveness? I understand and totally support your willingness to do something after endured such misdeeds. But what is the best policy to us? No certain answer comes to my mind easily.
Again, I insist in my opinion, the effort we are making so far to sort out scams will be very effective, maybe too effective, to serve its aim. But as to help us find a true love, I am not sure of its efficiency. Let me make another bold warning, start a chnlove adventure armed with a lot of caution and doubts may be a costly hide and seek game with no truly rewarding trophy at last. Using chnlove with more or less information from here means little. It’s like lottery rather than a chess game. Discouraging thought it might sound, luck is the most important. And my hope it to bring virtue and effort back to the top position.
It sounds harsh, whenever you try to think of some method, I pour cold water, yet I myself cannot propose a better idea. I feel most guilty for this impotence. This sense of impotence and guilty makes my thoughts fragmented. But I come to realise my words as a jigsaw piece of the whole picture. Now matter how tiny it is, I hope to contribute to the grand plan for more happiness and less sorrow.
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Willy
Fully agree with your caution....we tread a fine line here now between informed decisions and sheer fright !!
Newbies could well be thinking that the whole thing is an impossibility, too complex for anybody to make work.
On the evidence of Bros like yourself and many others who have got through all this and found your Beloveds....we can easily present the other side of the coin...despite the risks, it is very possible
Whenever trying to navigate uncharted waters, we will always collide with unkown rapids. The only safe way to avoid high risk is to stay on known rivers. Unfortunately, just the thought of finding a new love in such a strange environment shows that we will sometimes throw caution to the winds. I am not saying that we should always burn our boats as Cortez did, after all his bold gamble did topple a nation, and some of our bretheren are florishing in their new lives in China; but our decision to find True Love in China is to live with that Risk. We need to embrace it if we ever wish to climb the heights.
After reading Freakonomics, and now SuperFreakonomics; the jest of the Authors' message is that Economics is not the study of the scarciety of resources, but rather Incentives. There will be dishonest Agencies, women, and men because there is a cent to be made - ie Incentive.
As to Risk - sure at first term we are the ones at risk because of the financial burden because of the immigration rules inplace that requires us to do the travelling to China for the 1st meeting. But even after this, your woman could be the golden egg. But once married and arrived, maybe the egg will crack to reveal a different omelette. So the risk never ends.
Man has been the Hunter bringing home the protein(bacon) while woman have been the forager. The act of the Hunt entails increased risk to aquire the entrails. High risk = High reward. This is how I view Chnlove and any long distance match making service.
The women also suffer from high risk. Maybe not short term as you pointed out, but once moved from their country and family, they run the risk of maybe a fake Romeo. I often hear stories of exploited foreign workers hired as nannies. I am sure some new brides have suffered similar affairs, just as many men have had gold diggers empty their pockets.
No, the Risk will never go away. With my first marrage I thought I played safe, but still got burned. Even when technology gets so good that we can craft the perfect wife, some hi-tech company will find a way to use threaded fasteners on us because they have an incentive to take our pennies.
Just my two cents worth :idea:
It is dishonest but indeed logical a way.
Yes they have an Incentive so very logical but as you pointed out Harsh.
Great post Proteus and thanks for the information, although it is easier reading from my side since I have found my diamond while others still have yet to find theirs. And without realising it, you were posting your reply to David as I was penning my response. I see a similar response, especially in regards to your metaphor of a used car lot. "The Undercover Economist" by Tim Harford had a chapter dealing with why it is hard to buy a decent used car. I know guys - yes I have been reading many Economist books lately
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Proteus, you have no need to feel impotent. In my opinion the excellent information contained in your post adds to our awareness, so it is a good thing.
We can have a philosophical debate about whether using EMFs at all is a good thing, considering the different agendas of the parties concerned.
But the simple advice for guys going to China has been to read the posts, keep your eyes and your expectations open, watch for red flags, have a plan B and have the time of your life. Oh, and remember Maxx's rule. Coming up with a risk guide does not conflict with this good advice. Does this mean we should go with a lot of caution and doubts? Well, that is largely down to attitude. I had some caution, (well, I'm a cautious person). I had a few doubts (Well, you do, if you haven't met the person yet). But the most important things I took with me on both visits were (in no particular order) 1. a sense of adventure, 2. flexibility, 3. my faith and trust in people, 4. my positive attitude and 5. advice (positive and negative) from this forum. The main difference between the 1st and 2nd visits was I had better advice about the risks second time. Not more caution and doubts, just better advice.
Personally, I have no intention of getting interactive with some of the strange risks attached by translators to foreign men. It's interesting to know about them. It's all good information. But I would prefer to deal with the risks I can have some control over.
Like:
Get to direct contact as soon as you can.
Get some natural photos of you lady.
Find out about her family and their feelings about Western husbands
Find out about Chinese customs and culture.
Do all the above with subtlety, not like a bull in a china shop
I'm not saying anything radical with the above. We all know this. It's not rocket science. But, for a newbie, having these suggestions in one place might be a GOOD THING. And it can be put in a way that doesn't have them running for the hills with mountains of caution and doubts.
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. Rob ...You and the ladies are on equal status since you are both clients to some business orginisations, on your side, Chnlove, on the ladies' side, different agencies.
Proteus
I am only going to take this one point up (at the moment) seeing as you CANNOT SEEM to answer any full question put to you...
I will start with this quote above....Equal status...THIS is totally FALSE.
Chnlove is on ONLY the ladies side. And here is WHY!!!
Out of the people that has been MISUSED OR SCAMMED...HOW many have been REIMBURST FULLY BY CHNLOVE?....I would stake MY life on it, there has never BEEN ONE.
The reason Chnlove IS on the ladies side is VIA the agencies, the lady pays a joining fee, some of which, I do NOT know the percentage...WILL go into the coffers of Chnlove. The reason this is so. Is because Chnlove would not open an agency without getting a CUT OF THE TAKINGS. So that brings me to the AGENCIES, who are of course going to be on the ladies side.
To ME that is 2 for the ladies and NONE for the gentlemen. TALK your way out of that point.
The reason I am using capital letters is twofold.
Firstly, in this thread you have NOT addresss my POINTS.
Secondly, in your original thread, you AGAIN did NOT answer my VALID points
"...An agency is expected to fulfill a certain amount of credits for chnlove and themselves per month, with monetary encouragement ( about 11 HK$ per credit).
Then a translator is expected to fulfill a certain amount credits for agency and him/herself, with more pressure than encouragement, by all means..."
Does this statement from your own mouth, NOT tell you that this is BOTH agency and Chnlove being in cohorts against the gentlemen...
This question I want you to answer in one word................... YES ....... or......... NO...
No fluff, no explanation, yes or no??? It can do you NO harm, you no longer work for any agencies...
.......................ARE CHNLOVE FRUADULANT ???....................YES ....... or......... NO..
I await with interest your comments.
Mods please keep this in. I am not trying to offend him with capitals Letters which make me seem angry. BUT he has to take the good posts with the bad ones, after all he was the one who came to us in suspicious circumstances...
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Lessons learned over the years have brought me to the chinese women. I was never one for flowery wording. I've always been a straight to the point kind of guy. Wife number one? I was young and stupid. Thought I was changing the world? I only screwed up my own. Second marriage I thought I was smart enough not to be conned? Covered everything, checked everything twice and still? Got screwed. Not in a good way. :dodgy: :icon_biggrin:
The reason I turned to the chinese women was for the way they are. I see everyday here women doing things they shouldn't be doing. The thing that gets me the most is some women remind me of men? Doing things that were for men to do. Tattoo's, beer drinking, bed hopping, you all know it. What's the chance of meeting a woman here that acts and lives like a lady? I mean without having to pay her for it?
So I believe this is what many of us here see and want to get away from. OK There are some women there that have been practicing the western ways. I do believe in the old tale of you don't know them till you live with them? I for one trend lightly when telling any of these guys here what to do. I only read one side of the story. The easiest part is when a woman wants money. That's a big wall to run into. You know somethings wrong from that.
We know most agencies are greedy. I don't understand it and never will. Getting the EMF's flowing is pocket change to the amount they can make letting the relationships actually happen. I don't know if it's a generation thing? But it's throughout all business practices everywhere.
Make a course and stay with it. Find what you want and don't change to accommodate another.
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I am sure we dont want to stop any meaningful input here....there has been some real serious and fundamental stuff raised.
But Proteus, we are getting very esoteric and theoretical and the key objective of this thread was to try to develop something as a fairly simple guidline for newbies to consider.
The issue of risk seems to me to be a good concept...but us guys want to see it in a more definitive sense, reference to our own decision process, as we embark on this "journey"
In many ways , for us, it should be VERY simple......
After we have shared a lot of information with a lady, and decided that the relationship is worthwhile to move to another dimension, we will go to China and meet her...and fingers crossed...marry her. At the same time, if she has learned the same about us, then she will be at that stage too !!
If we had complete, accurate and realistic information about her, and her about us....... appearance, attitude, personality and everything else, 90% of the job is already done and we go to China in the positive hope that the personal chemistry when we meet, confirms for BOTH of us, that we should be together.
It is that simple...period.
The flaw in the model is the artificiality...and even the deception, that CHNLove and/or the Agency introduces into the free exchange of Accurate information between the couple.
Hence we are saying here...get off EMF's and on to real life communication as a method of minimising the risk to BOTH parties prior to a meeting.
However long the EMF correspondence lasts, whether it is 5 EMF's or 500...........it is the most risky stage....prone to errors and misleading/false information from poor inputs/outputs.
If BOTH parties, during the EMF exchanges feel that there is something good happening, surely BOTH parties will want to move ahead.....but surely that can only happen when more and more understanding is developed between them......thus the next step MUST be to get off EMF's...and get more personal..........this results in reduced risk for BOTH.....before the air ticket gets to be the logical final step in the process.
We know that this "getting more personal" next step is strongly resisted, in the main, and we dont know why....nobody has satisfactorily told us why this simple and logical step is as difficult (mainly) as pulling teeth !!
We feel uncomfortable, in the main, to jump straight from EMF's to an air ticket, because we are still in HIGH risk.
The information we want to give to anybody contemplating this wonderful adventure is also relatively simple:
"If you rely solely on EMF's as your mechanism to get to know each other...it is a high risk situation".
"If you are comfortable to go to China with this risk...then do so.
"If you are able to get onto a more personal communication prior to your visit...this will reduce the risk".
"If your Lady will not agree to a more personal communication...for whatever reason..then you remain in a high risk situation".
At this point, all we have done is to give the opportunity for an informed decision for BOTH parties.......this is NOT complex, it is NOT daunting and it is NOT scary...it IS fact.
Our concern always is that CHNLove in particular seem not to be able to recognise the value to them in the long term to assist in the reduction of these known risks.....the quicker they can facilitate a mariage, the quicker they get their fees.
Whatever category, by your definitions, the Man (and the Woman) fall into...that is irrelevant...all we want to do is to make the risk to both parties as small as possible....knowing full-well that the risk can never be Zero.
And you ask...why CHNLove still........because the "free" sites add a LOT more risk from gold-diggers, predatory Agencies, identity theft, financial scamming...the whole nine yards.
Generally in life...you get what you pay for. The free Agencies cost almost nothing, you get almost nothing.
When you pay for a service, you should get your money's worth. CHNLove tread a fine line here...and we know it !!
DavidE
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Quoting Proteus for the ladies the low risks are:
stable and frequent EMFs exchange,
high quality EMF writing,
eagerness for meeting,
confirmed air-tickets before meeting ( to make sure the man is coming only for her),
Each of those is a positive income for the agency. So low risk for ladies is the same as more money for the agency.
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Quoting Proteus for the ladies the low risks are:
stable and frequent EMFs exchange,
high quality EMF writing,
eagerness for meeting,
confirmed air-tickets before meeting ( to make sure the man is coming only for her),
Each of those is a positive income for the agency. So low risk for ladies is the same as more money for the agency.
Are you thinking what I'm thinking ?????:icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:
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Quoting Proteus for the ladies the low risks are:
stable and frequent EMFs exchange,
high quality EMF writing,
eagerness for meeting,
confirmed air-tickets before meeting ( to make sure the man is coming only for her),
Each of those is a positive income for the agency. So low risk for ladies is the same as more money for the agency.
Are you thinking what I'm thinking ?????:icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:
Please read between the lines of POST 29...:huh:
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Quoting Proteus for the ladies the low risks are:
stable and frequent EMFs exchange,
high quality EMF writing,
eagerness for meeting,
confirmed air-tickets before meeting ( to make sure the man is coming only for her),
Each of those is a positive income for the agency. So low risk for ladies is the same as more money for the agency.
Are you thinking what I'm thinking ?????:icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:
Sorry guys but am I missing something here? I understand that these statements from Proteus is pointing others into thinking about being scammed because the agency will make more money.
But any corporation will try to maximize profit. Most corporations will cut corners if they can. So yes the list Proteus mentioned will increase Chnlove's profit. Success and fraud both will make money. The agencies want to make money - we all have no doubt about this. But is the attitude here that we think the agencies do not care for success?
I think most agencies wish for the mutual success of profits and marriages as successful marriages drive their business. And I can also see the value of Proteus's statement in regards to the women's view of the man writing her. She wants and needs some sign of commitment from the man. Proteus is not saying to stay on EMF's for ever he is just pointing the general direction of the women's that instills confidence.
So somewhere in between her wishing a sign of commitment and our need for validity lies the answer into how soon to not use EMF's. I can tell you that once invented, a universal translator such as seen in Star Trek, or that fish we put in our ear (The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy) will we finally do away with the need for EMF's.
You can tell I am pro Translator, and yes I was one of the lucky ones, but I always got a kick out of the lovely prose that Cyrano de Bergerac scripted and I became dear friends with my translator. Maybe he did add some fluff to my letters, but then again, do you guys not think that I did not do the same? :angel:
Sorry to once again bring economics to the disscussion, but I remember reading how statistics point to Realtors holding onto their own homes on average for 10 days longer to make a couple of thousand dollars more. It was shown that even though they supposedly worked for us, it was in their better interest to entice us into a quicker sale. Because the extra amount they would make in commission did not warrant their extra time. So once again it comes down to Incentive. If we can understand the incentive then we will not always only see - fraud.
So I agree totaly with Proteus. Chnlove is not a chess match (at least I have some skill in this), but rather a luck of the roll. I got lucky while others played that other game Craps and did not.
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I just don't believe, that people need to be mislead(agency/translator) in this venture! And there is a HUGE difference between fluff and lies!!!
I totally agree with this and the rest BB posted. Wouldn't it be better to let the man know the woman isn't interested and send profiles from that agency (so they still have the man's interest?). It's the same thing they do when you are there and find the woman has no interest.
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Vince, Jim,
The agency will not let a paying punter off the hook that easily, if the lady is not interested in writing to the guy, the translator will do it for her, while also sending out more Ad mails to other prospective men for the lady.....
But you are both quite right, it's just that the Chinese view on business is not the same as ours. They will always chase that last RMB out of any situation. Tomorrow is another day in there business outlook, this goes for the major companies right down to the local stall holder....
This is one of the more important items that needs consideration when defining your proposed rules.......
David.....
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We are talking of the same thing here. I may be wrong here but I view business as business no matter what country or culture there is. The bate and switch always pissed me off, and mostly I would back away from any such deal. Letting them know of my disappointment with some choice words. But that's me. I walk into a car dealership to buy a car, the first thing I tell them is "Lets not start off with any BS. I want what I want and lets take it from there."
I've altered my life just to show some insurance company they aren't going to screw me over. I'm not running the topic off track with a ME thing. I'm just trying to get across how I view everything. So seeing these agencies do business in this off handed way doesn't make business sense to me.
Simply, (and I hope they are reading this) if a woman you have an interest in does not feel the same for whatever reason? It is a kind of bate and switch but a different kind. If the lady isn't interested they should offer others that may match. After all it is a Match Maker business isn't it? If done correctly you would stay with the agency writing those EMF's. Instead they hide behind the monitor acting out relationships? Only to find this out when you go half way around the world to meet such a woman. THEN they offer others? I think this will piss off any guy more then doing it in the beginning.
There real money maker is a real meeting with a woman. Not the EMF pocket change. What is more of an income? Making the 30-40000 RMB with the EMF income or making a few hundred just on EMF's?
Maybe my view on business practices is rare these days but maybe this is why I always did one job and got calls for two more and it keeps coming in this way till there is a mountain of customers happily giving references. It's all pretty simple, this is the price and this is what I will do for it. If I can't do it this way I will do this. No Games.
Lets say I am going to do a job for $2000. USD. I take a deposit of $100.00 and disappear? Yes, I made a $100. but I could have made $1900. more if I did the job? This is the business practices I can't understand? If the agencies want to make money, do the job.
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As I read this, I need to ask, one question. What happened to truth and honesty? This is to everybodys benefit! This is the #1, biggest problem, everybody is having!
Truth and Honesty is a nice idea. But this is how we wish the world to be. Economics studies how the world really is. There has to be an incentive. For most situations we can understand that truth and honesty can benifit us. Since not all use truth and honesty, then economist try to dig deep and see what benifit the people have when they pursue certain strategies.
As an example they told of a daycare service in Israel that had on average 6 sets of parents picking up their children late every week. To correct this they sent a letter to the guardians saying that for now on a $5.00 late fee would be charged each time a child was picked up late. They thought that with this penalty, it would fix the problem.
But to the dismay of the agency, and the 3 daycares they had implimented the late fee, now on average they had 20 sets of parents collecting their children late. What was the incentive for the parents? Well by studying the situation it was found out that guilt made a lot of parents gather their childeren on time. But now by having to pay a penalty it removed the guilt. Also the penalty fee was low enough that paying a babysitter was comparable to the penalty.
So the word of caution was to be carefull of what incentive you set because you never know how people will respond.
I find it will be difficult to set rules to control for this. In chess certain principles will allow you to be a better player (develope your pieces, control the center) even Poker has some principals that can be applied to increase your odds. But these are games that we play against other competitors. Games like slot machines are a crap shoot. The house wins with these games. So if we think Chnlove is like a slot machine, then my advice is don't play.
In our game called Chnlove, we have 5 players. And their Standard possible Incentives:
Player 1 Us - To find our soul mate (or Sole mate when hunting for red shoes :icon_biggrin:)
Player 2 The Lady in Red - To find her man
Player 3 The Agency - Their big payoff is the marriage contract fee. The small stream of EMF's cash is nice but the big payoff is the contract fee. So they would want speedy results.
Player 4 Chnlove - They get money from store gifts purchases and multiple EMF's streams. Their best interest is for longterm letter exchanges
Player 5 The Translator - Keep his job
Now with any one of the 5 players or combination we could have a slight collusion of alterior motives. For these motives, there would need to be an incentive. And don't be so narrow minded to just think it is only about the Money. Money is a great incentive but other things can motivate anyone of the players to be playing an other type of game.
But I do understand that the jest of this thread is to establish rules. The number one rule of any game is to understand that we are in a game. And the Economist would say that rule number 2 would be to identify the players and establish their motives. So please don't scream FRAUD when this unfortunate strategy is part of the game. I don't like it either, but then I also detest Christiano Ronaldo when he takes a dive from a puff of wind (although he is my favorite player to watch)
As a side note: If a reader from Pfishy came here to read this posting - I bet at no time he would hint that maybe I was being paid by Chnlove to preach the gospel.
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Rhonald,
Very good point! I understand this, completely...the sad fact: they tread on hearts! Even, as we write these things, these agency's DON'T CARE! So, by my guess, this thread is pointless...just use common sense caution, when dealing with these leaches! :idea:
Jim
I agree with you but it doesn't just end with "These Agencies". Any corporation during good times have smiles on their faces, but during economic downtimes - when the axe swings - they are ruthless. Common sense and caution is what life should be dealt with and not just here. But common sense has a price that is not always measured in cents. Thanks for sharring with your wisdom - it is after all priceless :icon_biggrin:
Just finished reading the Mr Anonymous in Changsha thread and now leaning the other way. Yes when our hearts are on a string it doesn't take much of a snip
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OK David,
after a lot of discussion about how unscrupulous some of the agencies are and a few other issues that we have known for a long time and are beyond our control, I suggest you go ahead and do a draft of the guide. I'm sure you'll find the right words and the right tone. Then if it needs tweaking, we can all have a look at it.
Then we can have a useful guide for newbies and others to the potential risks and pitfalls that may face them, especially going to China for the first time. People can use this to work out what it is in their control to do, rather than try and explain the business rationale of the agencies.
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Rhonald,
Very good point! I understand this, completely...the sad fact: they tread on hearts! Even, as we write these things, these agency's DON'T CARE! So, by my guess, this thread is pointless...just use common sense caution, when dealing with these leaches! :idea:
Jim
Jim
Are you saying that the thread, to try to put something in writing to help Newbies make informed decisions, is pointless ??
If you are, and it is a common view from Bros, then I can save myself a lot of typing :):):)
Yes "they" appear to tread on hearts, but that is our opinion because it is our hearts that got trod on !!!...."they" wouldn't see it that way !!
Rhonald
Probably not the place for us to debate Economic Theory and the Marketing Matrix....but it gets a bit hazy if we recognise here that the "product" is not tangible...and has an almost infinite variation on the "value for money" outcome. The perception of value is not a clear definition, in every case.......(as it would be if we are buying a TV (product) or a meal in a restaraunt (product and service) or getting a tooth fixed (service)).
However, I will "ave a go at a draft"......but there is one more step:
Would every bro who is interested...and please Guys...lets have a big percentage of members contribute here.......do the following
Please post ONE key point in Your opinion that is important to consider when you begin your search for your Chinese Princess.
No more than 12 words each point !!!
David
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David,
I can't keep to 12 words, but here goes my contribution.
DON'T HIDE UNDER THE BED! If things go wrong, get out of the hotel, be pro-active, contact an agency, meet people
(This was the most useful piece of advice anyone gave me.)
Alex
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Be kind hearted, honest and unafraid to love. This is what you will meet :icon_biggrin:
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24 hour rule live it love it learn it.
Back up plan name adress telephone number of agency in city you will be visiting.
if you dont have plans to go to China in 4 months.Don't write the ladies.
Heads up eyes open all the time
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Be outgoing and friendly
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Different country different customs.
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Be open to the woman about your inner thoughts, including your doubts.
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A few brief awareness's that come to mind.....
1/ Be aware, all that is written in EMF'S is not always what your lady has written.
2/ Don't fall in love with photo's and words on paper (or screen).
3/ Don't let your heart rule your head until you have at least met face to face.
4/ Don't rely on EMF's alone, Some form of direct contact is a MUST!!
5/ Always have some form of back-up plan in place on first trips to China.
6/ Use all your commonsense and your life experiences to help you guide yourself
through your journey to finding that special lady.
David.....
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Oh, Rob, thank God I didn't miss your post before going to bed. I’ll address your concern first in this post. Thank you for your simple and straightforward question. It's always what I appreciate to easily understand and answer. To your question, my answer is yes. And I resigned partly for saying this yes with no moral hesitation. I also appreciate you showdown of emotion. After all, our forum is entitled china love, a very emotional one. Although this particular emotion is not so comfortable, in my opinion, for both of us to start some personal friendship because I fail to regard myself a qualified target and I have no appropriate one to return, I am willing to wait for other chances. But anyways, I love the beating sound of your highland heart.
About some details, especially your speculation that "The reason Chnlove IS on the ladies side is VIA the agencies, the lady pays a joining fee, some of which, I do NOT know the percentage...WILL go into the coffers of Chnlove." I have to admit it never came to my mind before you mentioned. Might I be too bold to say it's another doubt that our imagination creates? About the relationship between agencies and chnlove, my knowledge can only provide something as I wrote in Neil's "new spin on EMF" post.
I quote part of it here.
"Buy saying that many agencies are shortsighted and a restored virtue of honesty throughout chnlove will make their business thrive, you have a comrade of opinion, Michael the China Shark whom I miss a lot. But I am not that optimistic. The barrier, in my opinion, lies in the scarcity of resource, or more plainly, the relationship between price and demand.
Since the only revenue chnlove generates is from credits, they have every reason to expect agencies to produce as many credits as possible, and meanwhile obey their rules. The public announcement of three agencies deprived authorization due to poor performance, which I think we could justifiably explain as low credits input; and the absence of any public punishment or even criticism on scam letters or other conducts, may have well suggested chnlove's emphasis. Surely it should be noted that chnlove is taking measures gradually to eliminate dishonesty in EMFs (such as the text message system).
So the ideal agency a chnlove administrator would envision is one like this, an agency that has plenty of employees to translator each letter between gentlemen and ladies, send ladies every cupid notes to respond and help them send out admiral letters. While from the aspect of revenue of an agency boss, these duties are much less important than recruiting new ladies, making phone call to them periodically reporting progress, meeting them when they come to agencies for information or merely gossip. After all, ladies are their immediate clients.
If an agency were to fulfill all the duties mentioned above ideally to satisfy both chnlove and its boss, its employees, I dare to predict again, would at least need to be doubled. And who's going to pay for the extra expense of labour? Agency bosses. I have no knowledge of financial condition of any chnlove agency, but I suspect a doubled pay bill will render most agencies into nearly no profit if not bankruptcy.
Since the extra need of employees cannot be afforded, the burden passes on. One translator is expected to do double amount of work if she's going to be a dutiful translator according to chnlove rules. But the problem is, very unfortunately, most translators do not happen to possess double amount of talent or energy or skills to fulfill the expected duty, such as the one who is writing now. So the choice is laid in front of one, it is a simple choice. Since one's scarce ability permits only fulfilling either duty levied by her boss or by chnlove, any since her pay come from her boss's pocket, I believe every one can predict her rational although pathetic decision."
So Vince, I hope it gives you some information too. To further explain, although a success generates much more revenue than EMFs, it is much more difficult to control than EMF going. In other words, it's a kind of high risk revenue and to keep merely EMF going is low risk, that is too say, easy money.
And Jim, your question about honesty is much more profound and I have some thoughts to share now. This trade of international marriage in China is actually in an embarrassing position. It is at least discouraged, if not forbidden, both by government also conventional concepts. Because although namely international marriage, it is almost a sheer women output without any women input (forgive me using this term). In your country attitudes are different obviously (consider the story of Sabine women). So no firm is sure of its long-term prosperity in this political and cultural atmosphere. Moreover, when most agencies care only short-term revenues, to give up the slice of cake in front of you and pursue a bigger but later one means high risk with no certain return. To put it simply, in this trade, "skilled" ones are to survive, honest ones are not.
Now David, your eloquent and coherent words give as much joy as insights in reading. I've managed to understand till where our opinions stand together and from where divide. Not only you and me, all of us and even the ladies want a relationship or at least a correspondence developed with the principle of simple and real. Then one of your paragraph lit my eyes and my brain although you didn't capitalise it, "We know that this "getting more personal" next step is strongly resisted, in the main, and we don’t know why....nobody has satisfactorily told us why this simple and logical step is as difficult (mainly) as pulling teeth !!"
You don't understand it because you are a gentleman who present exactly as you describe yourself, who wrote every lady one on one. You believe in fair-play, while who behaves otherwise believes in taking advantage of more coming information and less revealed information of oneself.
To be a little self-defeating and to contribute to the stock of doubts, I here quote some speculations other brothers have already offered to explain the resistance. The most possible one, surely is that the lady knows not you and all EMFs are from hands of translators. The second most possible one, the lady is very much different from her profile. The third most possible one, the lady's interest in you is not enough to proceed to personal contact, in which case, a lot of EMFs concent can be attributed to translators again.
If you play fairly, your surely want your opponent obey the same rule. It is here our opinions begin to divide. You plan to act as a judge partly while staying in the field since you've completely lost faith in the judge deployed; I plan to force the judge to fulfill his duty or simply quit playing and do something else with as little faith in the judge as you have. And if I have to make a choice of advice between the two, quit playing might be the one I prefer. This is why I ask you the question "Why still Chnlove?"
I am making my proposition according to some conventional wisdom such as "a man cannot spin and reel at the same time", or perhaps in this specific context, "a man cannot love and doubt at the same time." But as every conventional wisdom has an opposite one, I understand my opinion is only a jigsaw piece. But one thing for sure, I will stick to my effort, perhaps only orally so far, to let chnlove behave more honestly.
Two ideas come to my mind so far to serve this end. One is for individual member, which is to ask the translator for Chinese versions of every coming and going EMFs with excuses created by your own wisdom. If the correspondence is genuine, the translator has no reason to deny your request. If you are denied or evaded, no further investment needed. Another advantage of this method is that it does disturb the lady. The other idea is to start a campaign to force Chnlove to further implement a regulation they are very slowly and insufficiently carrying out. I've discussed something about it before in the thread started by Peter (pr1969). Here's a part,
"Chnlove has launched a "text message informing" system about 3 or 4 months ago, whose function is to inform the lady a new EMF has reached her account by sending a text message to her cell phone. Now more than 95% ladies have cell phone so the system meets no technical barriers. The only pullback is that Chnlove is not implementing it thoroughly. Only new joining ladies after the date when this system is launched are required to link their cell phone number to their EMF account, older ladies are not required to. And the sending of text messages are via translators, meaning by them clicking a button on the page of coming EMF to finish the action of sending, which action most translators ignore because there's no pressure on them."
Today I come up with a third idea, inspired by fyeba. For those who have suspicion of your EMFs, would you please put them in one thread. If one day we see there are 4 or 5 members related to one agency and the suspicious cases happen within, say, half a year (so the agency cannot put off accusation by saying data are no longer preserved after too long time), we may start a collective demand for evidence of genuineness of the whole EMFs, the amount of which cannot be bulk faked overnight.
I surely understand all these methods contain difficulty to carry out while I am even not sure what benefit they will bring to who try them. But at least they are a try.
So please forgive me to repeat your mistake in your first marriage, Vince. Dear new friends, rather than advice, I want to give you a better Chnlove.
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Proteus, thank you for being truthful...
You ARE an intelligent person, you know it, I know it, and every member on this site knows it... So why do you say this statement to me???
"...Might I be too bold to say it's another doubt that our imagination creates?..."
As an intelligent person, who knows the ins and outs of running a business, you 'KNOW' that in ANY business from bottom to top, the person above the other will get so much money/bonus for their contribution.
For example,
The translator will be paid a wage...Yes?
They will then get paid for an amount OVER their quota?...Yes?
The Agency bosses will get a wage, and bonus if the Agency does well?...Yes?
Now all this will come from Chnlove...Yes?
So we can SEE that Chnlove are the real bosses...BECAUSE they pay the wages?...Yes?
SO, there can be NO DOUBT that ANY money going into the Agency will be passed UPSTAIRS...SURELY this is not unreasonable to think?
So my question to you is...WHERE is the DOUBT in this statement..."it's another doubt that our imagination creates?..." .
Your post #26... I intended ripping it to shreads, which I will still do...There were many, many faults within it, that makes ME BELIEVE you are a PLANT for CHNLOVE... But I said I would only ask 1 question at a time.
All we want is the truth...NO going in depth, or avoiding the question which YOU ARE AN EXPERT IN... I AM ALSO an intelligent person, I may not have the eloquance of using wording like David E etc. But PLEASE DO me the curtoursy of not playing me for a FOOl...
However, thank you for your suggestion concerning 'suspicions of Emf's...
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Back again!
Alex, I think we share same opinions about doubts and risks. Some adequate extent of doubts, or in other words, questions, are necessary. And it is only when they are clarified, a relationship proceeds ahead. Please let me defent myself a little here. To reach this balanced point, I am drawing the extreme of excessive doubts while most are drawing the extreme of zero doubts, to let them two to meet. Merely doubting and guarding oneself against everything means little. It is how much to ask and how to ask and confirm, that matters. But how much is enough?
"Get to direct contact as soon as you can.
Get some natural photos of you lady.
Find out about her family and their feelings about Western husbands
Find out about Chinese customs and culture.
Do all the above with subtlety, not like a bull in a china shop"
What you listed is a good start. I want to add "how her past relationship broke, if she had before", "what is she willing to and capable of doing when move to a new environment"
With these two questions, I don't regard myself more doubtful than you. But if I add "how many men she is contacting now", "how can I confirm all her answers to those questions", I am human but doing nothing productive to myself. To the latter two questions, no definete answers can be believed.
Say we webcam everyday for one hour, what is she doing in the other 23 hours? She told me in QQ her parents consented her moving abroad, how much do they know me till now, what will they say in person if I appear in front of them? She said she loves me, which part and how much on earth? ...
So if we really want something happen, the line between excessive and adequate must be drawn.
And Rhonald, I believe economics is a such science. The more samples it caculates, the more correct it funtions. I try not to apply it in individual cases because human minds are made up of different values. It is revealed in this thread clearly enough.
It is only a pity that people like you, Martin, Paul and Brian can only call yourselves lucky ones. Usually in a business, modes of success are what we follow, but here, they are usually advised against. And for those who are not so lucky, we surely want some changes. But with the highly varied uncertainty, we can only try something that can be universally applied in all situations, from extremly bad to extremly good.
So dear new friends, if you want something to follow, make sure if can apply in all situations, neither too oppotimistic in negtive ones, nor to pessimstic in positive ones.
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Proteus,
I think that all of the considerations mentioned by members so far are valid and can be applied in all situations, apart from your one about why her last relationship broke. While it is valid to discuss what she is willing and able to do in a new situation, I don't consider it a universal consideration, when you are getting to know someone, to ask why a previous relationship went wrong.
For people like me, my priority is getting this relationship right. Conducting a post-mortem on a former relationship, like asking how many lovers she has had, can be a reductive exercise, especially if you haven't met and are communicating through the rather fuzzy and error-strewn medium of EMFs and translations. If she wants to discuss former relationships, I am happy to talk about this when the relationship is established, and when it comes up. I don't know if I'm the only one who feels this way, but even if I am, does this really have more chance of eliciting a more believeable response than, 'How many men are you writing to'?
I think that for the purposes of this thread, it is better to focus on providing a pragmatic and useful guide to guys writing to and visiting Chinese women - an at-a-glance set of guidelines, so that when you are stuck in EMF purgatory or stuck in a hotel room on your own in China, you can take some positive action.
Speculating on who is the bigger bad guy, Chnlove or the agencies, is an interesting, but separate, discussion. While it is always good to know your enemy, this kind of speculation can make you go round in circles and detract from the practical realities when you need to act in a given situation.
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Oh, sorry Rob, I fail to understand your true point which has been so clearly expressed. In answering so many post, I was a little careless.
When I say the "doubt created by our imagination". I mean the doubt that Chnlove shares part of agencies' initial fees from ladies. As to this specific question, my answer would be "very unlikely", because if so, profits left for agencies will not be enough to encourage them to start. And if Chnlove want a bigger bite, it can simply give less of every EMF revenue to agencies. And the most possible reason, Chnlove wants never get involved into any disputes or responsibilities bound by any forms of contract with ladies. And if they share part of the initial fees, they can't be immune.
Surely your point is, no matter in forms of fees from ladies or from men, concerning revenue, agencies are on the same side with chnlove.
Before answering it, I have to declare again I am only a former translator of one agency. So you may have a rough conjecture how much information I should have.
The relationship between chnlove and agencies nowadays, I think is like an autocrat and his corrupted officials.
Let me explain it further. It is true that generally, their interests are on the same side, but not a noble and stable one. There are still some differences.
Chnlove on the whole, cares you male members' benefits more than individual agencies. Like in a country of dictatorship or monarchy, the highest rules cares the benefits of all his subjects because they need to sustain at least a meager living to support his reign. It is reasonable. Chnlove has started business since 1998 and it's almost and established brand, so it cannot close and start other business overnight like many agencies. It is provable. In the past year, chnlove has taken several methods to protect benefit of male members. 1. make it invisible from a man's profile whether he has credits left on his account (otherwise any woman/translator who have written with him can send new letters despite his neglection to steal his credits until he block her). 2. start the text message system I have explained before 3. start the feedback system.
Surely all these regulations place pressure on agencies like anti-corruption laws against officials, and are poorly carried out as we can expect (except the first one). At least Chnlove is doing something, better than agencies. But how much can we expect Chnlove to do by itself? As much as we can expect a dictator to do for his countrymen.
Some other differences might interest you less. An official may not be loyal to his boss but to some potential rivals. Many agencies work not only with Chnlove. Half of the ladies who succeeded in marrying abroad from our agency are through Match.com. An official may secretly plan a coup. Many agencies are starting their own sites similar to chnlove. (it must be doen secretly, two agencies were fired by chnlove when their secrets were exposed).
Chnlove itself is in a dilemma. It's customer care department speaks with one voice, and financial one speaks with another (passed down to us by our boss). In the new year announcement given by chnlove customer care manager who supervises our agency. She demanded (I quote by memory),
"Arrange direct contact with ladies and gentlemen as soon as possible to build gentlemen's confidence in chnlove service and deepen their relationship. Suggest ladies to webcam gentlemen regularly in agency, perhaps with a newly printed letter of them held in hand. Remind ladies to send regards to gentlemen on western festivals and their birthdays or other important days. etc."
Mind you, there is even a written rule in chnlove handbook dilivered by them to forbide translators tell ladies if the man she is writing has other correspondents then. I myself have been asked by her to pass some requests to ladies which nearly amounts to insult. Some customer care staff of chnlove is very humble, perhaps too humble, in front of men. But how loud do they speak?
The one who supervises our agency has enough evidence to shut it down but all of her power can only postpone new applications of ladies and ban admiral letters sending for merely a week.
Her limited power shows the emphasis of chnlove decision making. Chnlove bosses know this reality, if chnlove does implement strict tules to make sure every EMF is translated and answered by ladies, at least 80% agencies will go out of business, just like 80% officials of a corrupted admistration would be fired. So they are doing as much as a dictator can do.
On the other hand, it is some of you brothers here I think bear a little responsibility. Your tolerance indulges them. Perphas bargaining with someone you already deemed loathy might seem a little disgraceful. But please bear in mind, you are not doing only for yourself. The more complaints chnlove receives, the more pressure they feel.
So Rob, let me be honest. I feel you haven't stepped out of the shadow of Keren. Would you please take into consideration my suggestion to join a thread gathering suspicuos EMFs? If you have any other ideas to let your mood return calm confined with this specific case? I think all of us are willing to devote some mentality.
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I was fortunate i didnt meet my wife on CHNLOVE. You see i realized the translator
did more talking in the beginning than the lady. And i found out by asking the lady or
i should say talking with her that she knew nothing about the few previous letters topics.
But this leads me to this------- Doesnt China regulate these agencies?? Maybe a member
who gets decieved could write or email that govt agency who grants the liscence to operate.
I read in the paper here in guangzhou were they shut down a few agencies for this reason as
they were just trying to generate money and not actually trying to get people together.
I dont know just a thought maybe.
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Phew....that's something of a mountain of information to climb over !!!!
So how do we best summarise all the words from and to Proteus and Co. on this very vital topic ?
Very little of what was said is unknown to us, we are fully aware that CHNLove and Agencies may well have differing agendas....and they are not always in OUR best interests.
I get the view that the reluctance to move to another level with relationships, via personal emails or QQ etc is very much a red-flag...in the situations Proteus describes...it aint good for us !!
I think this confirms what we have all said here before....if you cant get on to this next level of communications after an "appropriate" time...then move on !!
Jim...trust and honesty is a worthy goal...but it becomes clear that this is ONE thing we can never be sure to get...until we actually go to China...and even then, there is no guarantee that we will get what/who we think we are getting.
The significant disconnect here is that we are NEVER going to get to the situation where we can be ABSOLUTELY sure that all the words we get FROM her are real, and that all the words we send TO her are accurately and faithfully passed on......in the EMF stage.
Nothing that Proteus has said gives me any confidence that A) CHNLove is prepared to rigidly police the ethics of it's Agencies, and B) The Agencies themselves will voluntarily come to their own realisation that they must be honest with us.
In the final crunch, our only option is to go to China and find out the real truth...which may well be a high risk strategy...so be it !!.....we want to make this an "informed decision"
Lastly Proteus...in further answer to your "why CHNLove" ??
Maybe I for one, and many others have lost faith in the "Judge", but we also KNOW that despite ALL the impediments created by those parts of CHNLove and its less honourable Agencies, many Bros here have had excellent service and help from the Honourable Agencies that DO exist.
So the rest of us keep going so that we can eventually hit the same jackpot as they did....the Lady of our choice, found within an honest and honourable Agency........it is very easy to give up and walk away, that is what the "players" will do. But here, we are the Bros, of all people wanting to find their partner in China, we are serious, and we will ultimately win...because we are serious !!!
DavidE
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Maybe I for one, and many others have lost faith in the "Judge", but we also KNOW that despite ALL the impediments created by those parts of CHNLove and its less honourable Agencies, many Bros here have had excellent service and help from the Honourable Agencies that DO exist.
So the rest of us keep going so that we can eventually hit the same jackpot as they did....the Lady of our choice, found within an honest and honourable Agency........it is very easy to give up and walk away, that is what the "players" will do. But here, we are the Bros, of all people wanting to find their partner in China, we are serious, and we will ultimately win...because we are serious !!!
DavidE
Great conclusion David and I salute your fortitude - I do hope you become one of the lucky ones :icon_biggrin:
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Maybe I for one, and many others have lost faith in the "Judge", but we also KNOW that despite ALL the impediments created by those parts of CHNLove and its less honourable Agencies, many Bros here have had excellent service and help from the Honourable Agencies that DO exist.
So the rest of us keep going so that we can eventually hit the same jackpot as they did....the Lady of our choice, found within an honest and honourable Agency........it is very easy to give up and walk away, that is what the "players" will do. But here, we are the Bros, of all people wanting to find their partner in China, we are serious, and we will ultimately win...because we are serious !!!
DavidE
Great conclusion David and I salute your fortitude - I do hope you become one of the lucky ones :icon_biggrin:
Thank you O Master Storyteller :):)....I will win, it wont be luck, but will be because of persistence, and the knowlege from those who have gone before...and won :):)
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Bravo DavidE!
You have undertaken a gigantic and complex task and I applaud and deeply thank you for doing so. There is no doubt in my mind that the issue of fake EMF's, fake and photoshopped photos and ladies who are nothing like what we expect them to be when we arrive at the airport in China, lies at the very heart of the problems we experience with Chnlove and (some of) its agencies in preventing and perverting true relationships and loving relationships from developing, blossoming and coming to fruition. In my opinion, this one issue is fundamental and essential when we seek to surmount the abject dishonesty and cynicism of some of Chnlove's agencies, because it is through the EMF system that most corrupt practices occur; the others all spring from it. The most blatant form of this dishonesty and cynicism is perpetuated by the agencies facilitating and encouraging the two-way flow of EMF correspondence with a lady who, at best, is disinterested or uninterested and who, at worst, does not even know that you exist. It is a self-evident truth, therefore, that EMF's are at the very heart of the problems we are faced with when seeking to build a trustworthy and meaningful relationship with a lady in China.
I do not pretend to even begin to know the answer to this problem or how to proceed to address or redress it. That resides with those who possess a sharper insight and keener intellect than I. However, I am inspired and excited by the excellent quality of the many posts that different members have made on this subject and I believe that therein, in due course, given the right commitment, will the answer be found.
I have not posted on this topic before now because I have had some very urgent and pressing work issues to deal with; in short, I employ people and some of them are threatened with redundancy due to the continuing recession that is apace in the UK. They have families and mortgages and my first loyalty has had to be with them and not my own heart and its China-sought desires. I have however been coming-and-going on the Forum and reading all the fantastic thought-provoking views and opinions that have been posted. That said, I would like to take this oppportunity to comment on them and to add my simple contribution.
Firstly, as I understand it, this debate is about whether there should be a 'rule' for when members depart from using EMF's - and what the variables, givens and principles that drive and govern that rule are. There have been many opinions expressed about this, particularly in correlation to Maxx's 24 hour golden rule. My own opinion is, that with an issue of this nature, it is virtually impossible to impose or formulate a 'rule' that accommodates all the many excellent views and thoughts that have 'been brought to the table'; and I prefer to think of it as a guiding principle (or principles) or guiding advice. However, if the majority view is for a 'rule' on this topic, I am comfortable with that, as I am more concerned with achieving the outcome than I am with the semantics of the proposition.
On this, I am in total greement with Shaun's point that: "Most of us want to chart our own territory", and would add to that - in our own good way and time. For me that is another fundamental that can not be interfered with, on the premise that what works for some may not work for others. Moreover, it is almost impossible to put a time-frame on a developing relationship, as each individual relationship develops in its own way and has a life of its own. Just as it is extremely difficult to put a number on how many EMF's are written/received before concluding that the arriving correspondence is dishonest or that, at the very least, something is wrong.
Conversely, I completely disagree with Maxx that: If you are not going to visit the lady you are writing to in 3/4 months then don't write the letters." Just as I disagree with his imperative that: "When I did it that was the rule", ie going to China to meet the lady after 2/3 months. That is only his personal opinion of what worked for him; it may not work for others. I, for example, could not possibly go to China for some while, even if my heart was crying out to do so - largely for reasons that I have explained above - but also because I hold a position of resposibility and trust and people rely upon me; the only way I could follow what my heart dictates, is to abandon all of that. From my reading of this thread, I see that Vince is in the same position and can not go to China for personal reasons either. I am therefore not on my own and suspect there are many others who face similar dillemnas.
On the question of 'risk strategy': I believe that going to China to find out the real truth, without first being convinced that it is the truth, or at least bears a close resemblance to the truth, before going, is the highest risk strategy of all! And, David, on this, I would particularly refer to your #Post 22, which says it all! Furthermore, on the question of agency ladies' high and low risks; I found Proteus' post on this to be very enlightening but not something that should distract from the main objective for establishing the criteria of how to deal with the agencies panorama of duplicity and dishonesty in relation to EMF's and the criterion at hand for when to cease using them - interesting and useful though the ladies' risk assessment information may be.
On Proteus' contribution. Rob, I, unequivocally, do not believe for one moment that Proteus is a "Chnlove plant." How could he be when he has given us such priceless information and advice, as has been testified to by so many members of this Forum? I respect you Rob, and you know from our PM's that I respect you, and, like Proteus, I admire your Scottish lion heart. But I do really think you have got this wrong. In fact, I believe the problem arises from different conceptions: we function with a Western perception of intellect, whereas Proteus has an Oriental intellectuality, and I am convinced that many of his analogies and metaphors are misunderstood. He is undoubtedly a highly intelligent and sensitive man, and if he were indeed a Chnlove plant, he would have conducted his business on this Forum in an entirely different and deceitful way. It is, however, an incontrovertible fact that much of what we know about Chnlove agency practices and duplicity, particularly in relation to EMF's, has been given to us, gold-plated and gift-wrapped, by Proteus. And, as he is a former agency translator - and was an agency translator at the time of giving us these gems of information - his information is invaluable. Consequently, his kneck was also on the block should his true identity and the agency he worked for have been discovered and maliciously (by whoever and for whatever reason) conveyed to Chnlove. I know you have been deeply hurt and have every reason and justification to feel very aggrieved about Chnlove, and believe me, I really do feel for you. But credit where it's due Rob?
Ah, Jim (Mr Big), I am perhaps the fish in your metaphorical post, and much has been written here about using common sense and life-experience in our search for true love. Unfortunately, I had neither as I had never been on an Internet dating or marriage site in my life and stumbled on Chnlove when I was surfing the net one night. And it was just as you described it, pages of beautiful, exotic women - and then, out of all those thousands, my eyes fell on one woman who, to me, was utterly beautiful and I was totally captivated. I was not in love with the photo, but I was absolutely infatuated! And the rest is history, as they say. But enough of that, as I am in danger of going off-topic, so I won't go there... ....well, that's my excuse anyway. I merely make this point to confirm that you are completely correct in what you write, but also to make the point that when I started out I had neither life-experience or common sense in matters of this nature; now I have a fair degree of both, but only since becoming a member of this Forum. That fact alone exemplifies the value of DavidE's Rule 2 thread and why we need an overarching guiding priciple, guiding advice or 'rule' in relation to EMF correspondence.
Similarly, David50, posites the advice of using common sense and life-experience to guide us through our journey to find that special one. And my response is the same: unless you have gathered that life-experience and formed that common sense from involvement with something like Chnlove, you just have not got a clue about how to go about things and how to avoid the pitfalls and heartbreak - unless you are extremely fortunate enough to discover a Forum such as this. However, I do not think that I could add to David50's other 5 points of excellent advice.
Again, as with Rob, I think Alex has misunderstood the point Proteus was trying to make about asking a lady why her past relationship failed, or how many men she was writing to. I think this was posed by Proteus to try to establish some idea of if she was a 'mulitple writer' or 'player' who had little or no interest in forming a lasting relationship but was merely being deployed to fill the agency's coffers with EMF revenue. I may be wrong about this and I'm sure Proteus will correct me if I am. However, I completely agree with Alex that these are virtually impossible questions to ask and, apart from the potential damage they would cause to a genuine fledgling relationship, there is almost no way of knowing if the answers are true! I also totally empaphise with Alex on the other thorny aspect of this in that, like him, I have no interest in previous relationship postmortems and I firmly believe that two people's history starts when they become involved with each other; what happened, was said, or done before, is of little concern or interest to me - unless she wants to tell me about it, and I will be a generous and patient listener. More to the point, I find Alex's posts enthralling and full of 'must take' advice and in my frequent coming-and-going I have absorbed and assimilated many of his valuable and worthy thoughts.
I also think that Ted has made some excellent points, and I believe his suggested route is one that we should be taking. I have actually posted previously that, in my opinion, the thing Chnlove fears most (along with its conglomerate agencies) is bad publicity - and plenty of it! Chnlove and its agencies are inured to the complaints made about EMF's, fake ladies and translator scams, but they do not like their dirty washing being aired in public! Perhaps we should give some thought to appointing a press officer for press releases? I have frequently read posts here where it is said that our membership is too small to make a difference or to worry Chnlove, but I do not buy in to that on the premise that any bad publicity is unwanted publicity and tends to focus the attention of those receiving it. Also, there is a different perception about the morality of dating/mariage agencies in China to that of the Western world, and I think the Chinese authorities would be reluctant to catch some of Chnlove's bad publicity fall-out. Just a thought to be considered.
Lastly David, I would personally dismiss out of hand any suggestion that this thread is pointless, a waste of time or a hopeless cause. It is none of those disingenuous negatives. it is unbelievably empowering! And I believe that what comes from this thread will become one of the most valuable weapons in the Brotherhood's armoury for surmounting chnlove and the agencies dishonest practices - especially for newbies like me, who arrive disheartened, bewildered and fractured and suddenly find that there is life and hope and an impossible dream to dream after all!!!
I can not begin to thank you, and all those who have given their time, thoughts, experience and aspirations here, enough. I believe you have enough. And let your guiding advice be: "If she is interested, she can not wait to meet you too." (Chen Yan)
Avanti! And go well!
Johnboy
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Johnboy.....Masterful !!!!
In fact I for one, am so completely impressed by the quality of the info. from so many Bros on this "thorny" subject that I am overwhelmed by the amount of detail to sift through to get to a draft stage for all to critique in whatever way they see fit.
I dont want to comment in detail on your post...it is self evident, but on one point i do think we have all agreed so far......the word "Rule" is not appropriate. The only situation we have so far where a RULE applies is the Maxx 24 hour rule...and that is for an entirely different set of circumstances.
So Alex has provided a better theme...that of "risk management" and I believe this is the right approach.
I was ploughing through everything constructing a draft when Proteus popped up with yet more information, so I will go back to the drawing board and do some changes to my draft.
What I plan to do tomorrow is to take everything that all the Bros have done and give it to one of my analysts and ask the question..."what does it all mean, what does it all say, and what should we do to put it into neat language that does not confuse and does not read like the Encyclopedia Brittanica !!!"
This analyst will look at it all with unbiased eyes and with no knowlege of the humongous history behind all the words...so we will get an objective opinion.
So, guys, if you want to have a say, be quick..........
Watch this space :):):)
DavidE
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Wow, David, you are so swift with your drafting work. I hope I arrived in time.
After some reflection, I realised another difference that leads to our divided opinions.
It is with the unfolding with this thread, that I realised your persistence in finding your true love in China. Surely with it, you'll have much stronger motivation to carry on your adventure, than me and perhaps many new friends do. As to me, when I want to find a Chinese wife, I don't need Chnlove. :icon_cheesygrin: So it is so easy for me to suggest quit from Chnlove. When I put myself in your position, I realised you need something different.
Our opinions meet again when you say,
"The significant disconnect here is that we are NEVER going to get to the situation where we can be ABSOLUTELY sure that all the words we get FROM her are real, and that all the words we send TO her are accurately and faithfully passed on......in the EMF stage. "
I already explained our different methods under this circumstance in the judge metaphor. And now I realise you'll stick to yours. I hope mine could be taken into consideration by whom with less persistence than you do. And to those who want to carry on the game like you, I sincerely wish you good luck!
With regard to your hope for an honourable translator or agency, I agree with you more when you say,
"Most of us here will be convinced that almost all Agencies (or the Translators) will add "spin" or "fluff" to the EMF's you get from the Women with whom you correspond.
Most Agencies tread a very fine line between ethics, honesty and reality....the hard part is deciding which !!
For this reason, we think the best way to go is to get away from EMF's as early as possible and get on to more personal communication with QQ and similar face-to-face communication."
in the thread of Peter (pr1969).
I just have a request. When we carry on our effort, with the mental contribution from ttwjr32 and John and a lot others, would you please share your wisdom a little? We are fighting different battles, but we are all in the same war.
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I just have a request. When we carry on our effort, with the mental contribution from ttwjr32 and John and a lot others, would you please share your wisdom a little? We are fighting different battles, but we are all in the same war.
Proteus
I am not sure what exactly you mean by the above words.
I have no wisdom here.....only I have the experience of my own and that which many, many Brothers have shared with me openly and honestly from a lot of their own experience...good and bad !!!
I have agreed to take all the words here....from all the Brothers and try to put them into one place, as a very important guide for all Newbies and all the thousands of Men who look at our Forum but dont sign up. We here want all Men from our Western World to know something about how this system works....if we can save some financial and emotional pain for them, then our job will be worthy !!
DavidE
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Thank you sir, praise indeed from the master!
David, I overlooked to include my key points and do so now. Some will replicate those of others but I think this in itself is useful, perhaps even important, in showing a concensus of thought. My apologies for being unable to keep to your 12 word maximum.
1) Personal and willing contact of some nature after 10 EMF's. Based on 1 EMF per week each way.
2) Devoted to writing to you only whilst relationship continues.
3) Prompt and willingness to provide ordinary photos.
4) Answers your questions and asks her own questions of you.
5) Hides her profile as relationship progresses or volunteers good, credible reasons for not doing so.
6) Writes more long EMF's than short ones.
7)Find out if she has told her parents about you and what they think.
8) Be very wary about flowery, passionate language if used by her in early correspondence.
9) Discover after no more than 10 EMF's if she wants you to visit her in China. Based on 1 EMF a week each way.
10) Be open, honest, sincere and gentle - and trusting, until you know otherwise.
I hope this is of some help in the quest for the impossible dream!?
Respect!
Johnboy
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Most Agencies tread a very fine line between ethics, honesty and reality....the hard part is deciding which !!
Tread a fine ???- who are you kidding Proteus - the majority of agencies stomp all over that so called fine line.
Willy
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Most Agencies tread a very fine line between ethics, honesty and reality....the hard part is deciding which !!
Tread a fine ???- who are you kidding Proteus - the majority of agencies stomp all over that so called fine line.
Willy
Thanks Willy...right between the eyes as usual...you the man !! :):)
David
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Most Agencies tread a very fine line between ethics, honesty and reality....the hard part is deciding which !!
Tread a fine ???- who are you kidding Proteus - the majority of agencies stomp all over that so called fine line.
Willy
Thanks Willy...right between the eyes as usual...you the man !! :):)
David
Proteus I apologise unreservedly.. :blush:
And yes credit where credit is due as Johnboy mentioned...
Guy's.... Am I the only one reading between the lines of Proteus????
Please tell me and I will take a step back...honestly...
He has NOT told US anything that we already didn't know... He will half answer a question then go on a tangient about something else, or as I would say 'Bluff' his way out of it by all the mixed colocualisms...
The only TRUTHFUL answer I a have heard him say...AND WE KNEW THIS was that CHNLOVE are Fraudulant....
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Rob
It takes a good man to aplogize, so big respect for that! And no, you are obviously not the only man reading between the lines of Proteus' posts. But, as I attempted to explain in my previous long post, different perceptions of Western and Oriental intellect; and sometimes I find it really hard to understand the points that Proteus is making, and often it appears that he has not answered a question when in fact he has. There have been many times when I have 'taken a step back' and then revisited in order to make sense of what Proteus is saying. In a previous thread he set me a conundrum about a lotus and a swan and I'm still not sure to this day if I managed to unravel it or grasp the meaning behind his words as, sadly, he never replied to tell me. Proteus, if at any time you read this, I would dearly love to know the answer!
I have to say though Rob, that I disagree with you that Proteus has not told us anything we did not already know. He has been a veritable gold mine of information about Chnlove and the agencies. In fact I truly believe that we have only got to the point where DavidE is able to put this thread together so coherently and cogently because of many of the things that Proteus has made us aware of. That is not to take anything away from David, whose work on this thread has been phenomenally fantastic and evokes complete admiration on my part.
I am utterly convinced that Proteus is completely genuine and on our side. And Rob, I'm sure you do not think that I am in cahoots with a Chnlove plant! Not with the views I hold about Chnlove and its agencies.......which do not seem to differ much from Proteus', apart from the fact that he knows far, far more than I do about them!
You are a decent man Rob, I respect and admire you for that.
Stay cool!
Johnboy
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David,
One thing that might be considered her is; Is the woman really interested in you? This may be another issue why a translator is writing you instead of the woman in question.
I have been concerned about Peggy's need for reassurance all of the time. This morning as we were talking it hit me, yes they do need the re-assurance but if the are not asking if you love them while writing EMF's or they were asking and now they have stopped then something is wrong. I would suggest they are not interested in you. I am not an expert on women in China and do not profess to be since I have talked with just a small handful of women. If a woman is not asking for re-assurance in an EMF regularly I would say that you are not talking with the woman but the translator.
This could be another tool for seeing who you are talking to.
Shaun
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Johnboy
Thanks for that...
Maybe as Proteus says I am still under a cloud about Keren.. This however, I in my heart don't believe. BUT, it could still (and very probably is) be playing on my mind because I am here.. I at the moment have so much going around it that it feels like bursting...
So in future I will take a step back...Maybe I am just not reading the posts right:huh: hehe
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Okay, I'll say this. (and I've been here a lot this last few days -- one of my friends is in the hospital and in critical condition)
Everything Proteus told us falls into the following categories (1 of them):
1) what we already know
2) no way we can verify
An example of 1) is that translators sometimes lie; an example of 2) is that chnlove is making all the new woman have cell phones and SMS..
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Okay, I'll say this. (and I've been here a lot this last few days -- one of my friends is in the hospital and in critical condition)
Everything Proteus told us falls into the following categories (1 of them):
1) what we already know
2) no way we can verify
An example of 1) is that translators sometimes lie; an example of 2) is that chnlove is making all the new woman have cell phones and SMS..
Regnis....sorry about your friend...I am sure all of us wish him/her the best for a speedy recovery.
Lets not shoot the messenger, it is so important that this thread seeks and gets all and any opinions. Proteus has a point of view and we should listen and make our own decisions about how it all stacks up.
We must be close to the knowlege that very little in this journey to find a Chinese Bride can be totally verified...hence we are trying to get these guidelines established.......to be of some better help to everybody in the loop
David
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Thank you sir, praise indeed from the master!
David, I overlooked to include my key points and do so now. Some will replicate those of others but I think this in itself is useful, perhaps even important, in showing a concensus of thought. My apologies for being unable to keep to your 12 word maximum.
1) Personal and willing contact of some nature after 10 EMF's. Based on 1 EMF per week each way.
2) Devoted to writing to you only whilst relationship continues.
3) Prompt and willingness to provide ordinary photos.
4) Answers your questions and asks her own questions of you.
5) Hides her profile as relationship progresses or volunteers good, credible reasons for not doing so.
6) Writes more long EMF's than short ones.
7)Find out if she has told her parents about you and what they think.
8) Be very wary about flowery, passionate language if used by her in early correspondence.
9) Discover after no more than 10 EMF's if she wants you to visit her in China. Based on 1 EMF a week each way.
10) Be open, honest, sincere and gentle - and trusting, until you know otherwise.
I hope this is of some help in the quest for the impossible dream!?
Respect!
Johnboy
greetings brothers,
Ok here we go again hehe. as always Zhen and I seem to be the thorn in the paw of reason and logic, so using Johnboy's list i will show the examples and David E can go from there,
point one, personal contact after 10 emf's. Zhen and I would do at least one full 6000character letter each way per day. We exchanged personal contact info whenever it came up. I do not recall the exact time frame but it was really early in our relationship. SO I agree some form of alternate contact offered is reasonable but remember some of these ladies have been hurt before so may be more reluctant to disclose this info early.
point 2 writing exclusively to you, while I agree in principal I go back to point one whereby some of these ladies have been hurt before and may be reluctant to do that until more comittment is shown. Only the parties writing the letters will be able to judge the best time for this.
point 3 willingness to provide natural photos.. ok here we start to diverge. The first natural unshopped non professional photos i received of Zhen were the ones I took myself when I went to vist her in September. She did send me non chnlove pictures and i still have two of them in my wallet but they are professional photos and therefore shopped. So some ladies may not have pictures they are willing to give you.
point 4 Answer and ask questions... yes Zhen wrote me an admirer letter in which she mentioned specific things about my profile. Every letter since then was a give and take of answers and questions. However keep in mind the translators can do this too so not necessarily a good indication until you can verify it without going through the translator, QQ in person etc.
point 5 hides her profile.. Zhen hid hers as soon as I asked her. Some do some dont. Again it goes back to how often they have been burned in the past.
point 6 writes long letters... well this I agree on heheh Zhen always wrote full length letters sometimes 2 per day, and yes much of them was romance and love and not vital stats, but every topic than we should cover in letters was covered in depth. Everything from politics to kids, where to live to religion all covered.
pont 7 Does the family know.. yes Zhen told all her family and friends about me early in our relationship. I can think of no logical reason for a chinese lady to seek a foreign husband and not tell teh family when it appears she has found one who is serious, unless she is waiting for the flight details to be sure you are serious and committed. Keep in mind they know as well as we do that it may not work out face to face so may be reluctant to tell the parents until they have at least that part out of the way.
pont 8 flowery language used early.. OK here I really disagree. Zhen and I used very flowery romantic luvy duvvy language from about letter 3 or 4 onward and never stopped... wait a sec ... we still havent stopped. Some people just express themselves like this. Read the threads about first letters and the one where i posted excerpts from our letters to get the idea of our language. For Zhen and I it was just a natural thing to do, your mileage may vary.
point 9 wants you to visit.. while I agree with the point I disagree with the timeline. for instance ladies I wrote to before Zhen both wanted me to visit but not before my divorce was final. This took more than 10 emf's to discover. Some ladies may not even discuss this seriously until they are sure of your committment to them.
point 10 be open honest trusting etc... absolutely! This I think is the core point in the whole thing. To often it seems from the posts that we are quick to assume scam and translator misdeeds and mistrust of the lady. While i agree there are bad ladies and traslators and also men if you go looking for the scam or the doubt or the lie you will convince yourself that any irregularty is exactly that.. a scam or a lie. You have to give the benefit of the doubt until you can prove otherwise. If everything looks like a scam then perhaps online long distance dating/retationships are not for you.
Summary: so we can see from Johnboys list and my responses that perhaps Zhen and I are not so much the exception to the rule as we might think. Perhaps we were just lucky in that we were both open and honest and trusting right from the start and we had an excellent agency and translator to work with. So maybe the trust and openess and willingness to bent are the most important thing here instead of looking for discrepancies or reluctance or falsehood try looking for the good and the nice and the love, you may just surprise yourself and find that one special lady. Or if that doesnt work look up the agency from Handan Hebei province ( agency 329) and write to one of their ladies. I know for a fact the agency is excellent and many of the ladies are beautiful since I have seen them with my own eyes.
So there you have it my $2.50 worth of thoughts on this issue. hopefully David E can come up with somethig from this mass of information and opinion. I think a decent guideline will go a long way to reducing the have I been scammed posts and maybe even get people out of their own head long enough to see if what they have is real or not.
The bottom line is only the people involved in the relationship can truly say if its real or not.
Sincerely,
Zhen and Brian
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Brian
From your summary, am I right in saying that your advice is to find a woman from the Handan Agency and let the good will of all concerned lead you to a marriage ???
My problem is that I dont work that way.....I suspect that many people here "browse" the profiles until they find a Lady that appeals and then begin the correspondence etc etc etc.
What Agency she comes from should not make a difference...should it ?
Except that we know that we must be careful of CLBA. and maybe others...but to be restricted to only the few Known good Agencies almost removes our choices ??...what if I dont fancy any of the Ladies from your Agency ??
David
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David,
Yes CLBA is an agency to watch but we also need to be wary of the individual translator. Unfortunately the names they give us will be impossible to trace as the give us English names. I am talking with a translator at P218 right now trying to figure out what is going on there and how deep the deception is a the agency. I asked her if she knew Melody and she tells me that she does not know the name so I am sifting through all the letters and trying to find her Chinese name. I know she gave it to me at one time but I realize that could be wrong too.
I also realize that the translator I am talking with could be lying through her teeth.
All that to say there must be a way to figure out which translators are dishonest too.
Jim,
I think the flowery language thing they are talking about is when you get it and then suddenly it stops. This is what happened to me. You can believe it got my attention being a novice. It kept me there much longer than I should have stayed and caused a lot of grief as I tried to figure things out.
If yours started and continues to this day then it does not fit the parameters that we are talking about. We all know you got a winner. What we are talking about is newbies and forgetful oldbies who meet new women and have a tendency to think with the wrong head at times.
It would be impossible for David to build a document that included everyones case including successful men who finds the perfect woman and marries her. At best it will be a general guideline for men to look at and weigh their options. Will is solve all of the problems? Not only no but hell no. There will still be guys that will be taken advantage of. I see two categories. 1. Those who fall under the spell of a masterful translator in snaring men with innuendo. (thinking with the wrong head) 2. New techniques to snare men with.
Shaun
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There are so many loops, ups and downs, hurdles and everything else to go through to have a "List" of what should happen. in the relationship. It's not possible. Everyone is different including us, the women, the translator and the agency. There are to many variables. For the newbies reading this they may take the points as a timing and relinquish a relationship for not enough or to much love talk in the time alloted. It's crazy. Everyones personality is different and there can't be a set thing to happen at a set time.
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Vince you may be right here. My lady is so totally unlike anybody else's lady that I am not even sure the men are from mars, women are from venus rule even applies :s.
Like today I find out that due to a presumed Google mis-translation I have been repeatedly asking my lady a horribly embarrassing question about a personal matter. Today I got some very bad emoticons and it was clear my lady was very cross indeed when I asked her again. But why on earth didn't she tell me last week, instead of fuming about it for all those days I will never know :huh:.
Having a set time limit wouldn't work either - some ladies get busy at certain times of the year. And be prepared for life's little (and big) incidents. For example, my lady's mother is very unwell, and I am having to take a back seat while my lady deals with it.
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Brian
From your summary, am I right in saying that your advice is to find a woman from the Handan Agency and let the good will of all concerned lead you to a marriage ???
My problem is that I dont work that way.....I suspect that many people here "browse" the profiles until they find a Lady that appeals and then begin the correspondence etc etc etc.
What Agency she comes from should not make a difference...should it ?
Except that we know that we must be careful of CLBA. and maybe others...but to be restricted to only the few Known good Agencies almost removes our choices ??...what if I dont fancy any of the Ladies from your Agency ??
David
Greetings Brothers,
David E,No I would not presume to suggest that everyone go to the Handan agency to find their lady. There are after all over 8000 ladies on chnlove and the handan agency has about 150 of them so not enough to go around heh. What I am saying is if one of them tickles your fancy and you want to deal with a good agency then that one is certainly a good option.
The bottom line is we all must decide for ourselves who we are attracted to and what we will do to find teh woman we will live our life with.
Ayway Zhen is thowing me off teh table so I will respond later hehe
Zhen and brian
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Sorry for being so vague, despite the risk of oversimplication, let me summarize my points into plain words.
1. To an ordinariy man with moderate interest in finding a wife from China, Chnlove is not a worthy try.
2. To those who do want to have a try, being innocent or being cautious makes no big difference to the possibility of finding you a wife.
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Thank you John, you are wise to point out the difference between Western and Oriental ways of thinking and writing. Usually in Chinese, we put emphasis in the end of an essay. This is why in many of my posts, I ended with suggestions for changing chnlove. It's what I care most.
No Rob, you don't need to apologize more than I should. I have been often misunderstood even in communication with my fellow Chinese countrymen. I'll try to improve my expression in the future. I only hope after all these posts, my intentions can be understood at least. I know my intentions are different from many other members here, and I guess sometimes this difference is the root of a lot others.
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Brian
From your summary, am I right in saying that your advice is to find a woman from the Handan Agency and let the good will of all concerned lead you to a marriage ???
My problem is that I dont work that way.....I suspect that many people here "browse" the profiles until they find a Lady that appeals and then begin the correspondence etc etc etc.
What Agency she comes from should not make a difference...should it ?
Except that we know that we must be careful of CLBA. and maybe others...but to be restricted to only the few Known good Agencies almost removes our choices ??...what if I dont fancy any of the Ladies from your Agency ??
David
Greetings Brothers,
David E,No I would not presume to suggest that everyone go to the Handan agency to find their lady. There are after all over 8000 ladies on chnlove and the handan agency has about 150 of them so not enough to go around heh. What I am saying is if one of them tickles your fancy and you want to deal with a good agency then that one is certainly a good option.
The bottom line is we all must decide for ourselves who we are attracted to and what we will do to find teh woman we will live our life with.
Ayway Zhen is thowing me off teh table so I will respond later hehe
Zhen and brian
Greetings Brothers,
Sorry about the above note, Zhen had made lunch and needed the table I was using with the computer so I had to get off and eat hehe.
Anyway as last stated no David I am not saying everyone should go through the Handan agency that would not be realistic. Lets face it with over 8000 ladies on chnlove and only about 150 from Handan agency its not likely that most of us would find their love in Handan. However if one of the brothers is tired of getting scammed or the run around then perhaps its worth it to check out that agency and see if any of the ladies there catches their eye.
I have spoken at length with Daniel and Echo the couple who run the agency and their priority is to help the ladies in their quest. Yes of course they are in it to make a living also but they are not grubbing for every last yuan and the ladies all know it. There is more of a family relationship there than a business one and all the ladies that I have seen there and chatted with have all seemed very happy with the service.
All I am suggesting is that is a decent agency and may be worth a shot for those of us who have been burned too often.
As for the rest of your quest to provide some decent guidelines or solid direction for the new brothers or even the long time ones I fully support your cause. It would be so nice to see more positive reports here instead of all the am I being scammed stuff. We need to have the positives outweigh the negatives or some folks will never be able to free themselves from the destructive thoughts and feelings that appear quite often in threads.
People need to get out of their own heads and have some trust and honety from all sides, but you will never find this if you dont open yourself up to the possibility that it is out there. If you expect scam and dishonesty then you will convince yourself that this what you found. Granted we must all use our heads and be aware but dont start right out thinking something is wrong. Remember all the things people have said about different cultures language ways of doing things and that at least three people are involved in the emf process. You, the lady, and the translator. Many things can prevent the lady from doing what you ask, not the least of which is she is afraid to also get burned again. Perhaps instead of rushing to get off emfs and save a few bucks the guys should instead work at building the relationship and gradually trying to get personal contact and webcam. If you can set up a webcam early through the agency and everything works out well then getting the rest of the things we want like pictures and non agency contact etc will be easier. Also dont forget the lady will have things that she wants as well, it is a two way street so we need to be willing to give as well as receive.
Anyway this has all been said before so I am sure we dont need me to say it again. David keep up with this task you have taken on it is worthwhile if we can come up with something usable but at the same time not too specific.
Good Luck,
Zhen and Brian