China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => The Campfire => Topic started by: wilsbrough on December 29, 2009, 06:21:25 am
-
http://web.orange.co.uk/article/news/china_court_approves_brit_s_death_sentence
Just wondered what my fellow brothers thought about this? I am not saying that the guy was innocent, but there are many other factors to take in regarding this case, and from what i hear asking if the man was mentally ill as opposed to having a medical evaluation sounds a little wrong to me, any thoughts? Right or wrong? Did he deserve to die when you read all the facts? He clearly was a little soft in the head, did you see his 'Music video'?
Andy.....
-
Is it not strange just how many druggies and even murderers are said to be sick in some way after being caught , do not see to many people being upset at the number of people disposed of in other parts of the world including the U.S.A , Singapore and in other countries we do not even hear about , Brown is only crowing to cover up his other financial woes and jobless figures , regards Ying and Robert .
-
I am with Robert on this one.
He was not soft in the head enough to get to Urimqi which is not the easiest places to get to and it would have meant at least one change of flight maybe 2.
Urimqi at the time of his arrest was not a good place to be as borne out a little later when several hundred innocent people, going about their everyday business were slaughtered in street attacks. Some perpetrators probably high on drugs.
As I see it no one is saying he was innocent just that he was mentally wrong in the head. Was he was he not.
It matters not as far as I am concerned. It is strange how they always find some excuse for someone's bad behaviour. Was Hitler wrong in the head? Would he have still been hung if he had survived the war? Of course he would. Bigger crime but same principal.
What this man did could have brought misery to more families than effected by 9/11. 4 kgs is a lot of heroin and China did not bring in the law just to deal with him it has been there as long of the PLA.
To have reprieved him would have opened the flood gates to foreigners bringing in the shit by the bucketful. Sad as it is for his family it will make any other think twice before setting out on this path as the publicity has gone world wide.
Willy
-
I have to say something here. I was talking about this last night with a friend. Although I think a execution is real harsh, it shows they aren't playing.
We were talking about the airline bomber and how he will get a lawyer (for free) that will come up with "He has a mental condition" or some other excuse and he'll get a slap on the wrist. This is when I told about this drug smuggler. He knew what he was doing. They came up with the same excuse for this guy.
"As for his possible mental illness which has been much talked about, there apparently has been no previous medical record."
The embassy statement said there was strong support in China for the death penalty for drug smugglers.
"The amount of heroin he brought into China was 4,030g, enough to cause 26,800 deaths, threatening numerous families," it said
The US courts are being to lenient to such people.
-
I do not approve of the drugs trade and have had a few friends who's lives have ben ruined by heroin, and in some cases i think people deserve the sentences they get, like the UK girl caught with heroin strapped to her body in Indonesia i think it was, the one who became 'pregnant' to escape the death penalty. She should have been left to rot there as far as i'm concerned.
The thing is, i'm not condoning the death penalty, in fact i support it, i think it should be re-introduced in the UK as there are murderers, rapists, and paedophiles that do not deserve to live, but i also think that you need to be 200% certain of that person guilt, i know this guy was guilty of having the drugs in his bags, but did he put them there? Is he mentally ill? I just feel there were too many unanswered questions left out before the execution was carried out.
In the reports i have read, reading this guys letters, he was clearly delusional, and hearing the prosecution did not carry out tests regarding his mental health, would that not have been the best route to take before the execution? If they find nothing, then fine give him the punishment he deserves, but If he is mentally ill and was duped into taking the drugs into China, then is he not now another victim of the drugs trade, whilst the real criminals who orchestrated it still free walking the streets, shipping the stuff to other countries?
Andy...
-
did they ever try to figure out were it came from
and who else was also involved?
-
I'm totally with Vince on this too . I wish the US would start doing the same with those Guy's and not waste anybody's time and our Tax Dollar's and get it done quickly not over several year's . Just think of Richard Ramirez ... death Penalty and he is still around enjoying live in Prison . US Court's suck big time .
-
My feeling about this is, he was not mentally disturbed enough from planning and making a long distance trip to China and to what is not an easy area to reach. He was Guilty of importing A class drugs (Heroin) so to my mind, no great loss, except maybe to his family. But then, where was this caring family when he informed them he was planning a trip to China, them knowing about his mental disturbance and all??? Just don't come together for me!!!
What is really annoying me these days, is that every time they say a Britain is involved in this or that overseas, and then when they eventually give out his/her name 9 times out of ten, it's obvious his not British at all, ...but yet another immigrant that's managed to get a British passport!!! This has got to be giving Britain a bad name and reputation around the world.....
David.....
-
I'm going to have to agree with everybody else.There was no mental health issues the guy knew what he was doing.He took the chance he got caught.
-
Here is a useful summary of arguments against capital punishment:
The most important one is the virtual certainty that genuinely innocent people will be executed and that there is no possible way of compensating them for this miscarriage of justice. There is also another significant but much less realised danger here. The person convicted of the murder may have actually killed the victim and may even admit having done so but does not agree that the killing was murder. Often the only people who know what really happened are the accused and the deceased. It then comes down to the skill of the prosecution and defence lawyers as to whether there will be a conviction for murder or for manslaughter. It is thus highly probable that people are convicted of murder when they should really have only been convicted of manslaughter. Have a look at the cases of James McNicol and Edith Thompson and see what you think.
A second reason, that is often overlooked, is the hell the innocent family and friends of criminals must also go through in the time leading up to and during the execution and which will often cause them serious trauma for years afterwards. It is often very difficult for people to come to terms with the fact that their loved one could be guilty of a serious crime and no doubt even more difficult to come to terms with their death in this form. However strongly you may support capital punishment, two wrongs do not make one right. One cannot and should not deny the suffering of the victim's family in a murder case but the suffering of the murderer's family is surely valid too.
There must always be the concern that the state can administer the death penalty justly, most countries have a very poor record on this. In America, a prisoner can be on death row for many years (on average 11 years {2004 figure}) awaiting the outcome of numerous appeals and their chances of escaping execution are better if they are wealthy and/or white rather than poor and/or black irrespective of the actual crimes they have committed which may have been largely forgotten by the time the final decision is taken. Although racism is claimed in the administration of the death penalty in America, statistics show that white prisoners are more liable to be sentenced to death on conviction for first degree murder and are also less likely to have their sentences commuted than black defendants.
It must be remembered that criminals are real people too who have life and with it the capacity to feel pain, fear and the loss of their loved ones, and all the other emotions that the rest of us are capable of feeling. It is easier to put this thought on one side when discussing the most awful multiple murderers but less so when discussing, say, an 18 year old girl convicted of drug trafficking. (Singapore hanged two girls for this crime in 1995 who were both only 18 at the time of their offences and China shot an 18 year old girl for the same offence in 1998.)
There is no such thing as a humane method of putting a person to death irrespective of what the state may claim (see later). Every form of execution causes the prisoner suffering, some methods perhaps cause less than others, but be in no doubt that being executed is a terrifying and gruesome ordeal for the criminal. What is also often overlooked is the mental suffering that the criminal suffers in the time leading up to the execution. How would you feel knowing that you were going to die tomorrow morning at 8.00 a.m.?
There may be a brutalising effect upon society by carrying out executions - this was apparent in this country during the 17th and 18th centuries when people turned out to enjoy the spectacle of public hanging. They still do today in those countries where executions are carried out in public. It is hard to prove this one way or the other - people stop and look at car crashes but it doesn't make them go and have an accident to see what it is like. It would seem that there is a natural voyeurism in most people.
The death penalty is the bluntest of "blunt instruments," it removes the individual's humanity and with it any chance of rehabilitation and their giving something back to society. In the case of the worst criminals, this may be acceptable but is more questionable in the case of less awful crimes.
-
I'm not a big fan of the mental illness loop-hole. Some guy goes and runs his car into a crowd of people or shots a bunch of strangers at random and they say he's not responsible for his actions because he's sick in the head. Well DUUH!!! no sane person would do those things, so of course he's sick in the head!! I still say they deserve to be punished.
Life isn't fair. Most of the time the right thing gets done, for those few occasions where there are exceptions I think they are tragic. But like they say in the old west movies. We'll let you work it out with your maker. Alluding to the fact that perhaps the judgment here on this planet is not the last time they might be accountable for their actions.
-
This particular man was not told of his impending execution until 24 hours before he was executed. The news of his possible execution only came to be news about 7 days earlier.
What has happened in the previous 2 years since he was found carrying a dangerous drug? Had his family forgotten him until now. Will this Sunday's newspaper all have' My Life with my executed father' or 'My Cousin the Chinese Drug Scapegoat' headlines having sold their stories for thousands.
Max Clifford must be rubbing his hands again.
You can in English law say what you like about a dead person true or untrue, as they cannot be libelled after they are dead.
Willy
-
Wonder what the penility is for smuggling Viagra....lol
If he was that stupid to get talked into herion smuggling, what's to stop an idiot like that from being talked into strapping a bomb to his ass and blowing others up?
-
We have a saying here: "what goes around, comes around". The way you treat the most unworthy of people has a way of changing you. We should aim to treat people better than they deserve, not only because this is the right thing to do, but because of what it does for the society as a whole.
I've edited this post to remove an inflammatory sentence.
-
I can only think of that you have to live according to the laws in the country you are visiting.
I know that going to prison in Russia, Ukraine and some other eastern Europe countries is like having a death punishment. There is a 90 % chance to get tuberculosis that have no treatment so you will die anyway after 5 years or coughing..
-
But did he maxx who,s to say what state of mind he was in when he did it,no one really knows but him.Willy i know what your saying about his family forgotten him until now but he,s there blood so they bound to say he did not do it i think we all would becase we remember them befor they may have gone off the railes so no matter wich way its cut its crap,but dont get me wrong i do belive peeps should pay for what they have done but i would not like to be the one who desides who is to die just my pennys worth.
-
Wonder what the penalty is for smuggling Viagra....lol
Well do this and you can really claim insanity. There is more of that available across the counter than a good chocolate bar.:icon_cheesygrin:
Lets face it - 75% of our family members think we are mad to go to China for love!!!!
Willy
-
I have seen many videos mostly taken from police car cams that had a guy running with a gun or shooting at, whatever and after they get him he or his family on the same video saying he didn't do it, he never had a gun, it wasn't him? Ahh! it's on video....
-
The sentence was harsh, but anyone who smuggles drugs into Asia knows the risks.
What I thought was interesting was the fact that the Chinese authorities stood up to the UK on this issue. China does not now need the West as much as the West needs China. I am certain that this is going to be a big theme in the coming decade.
Let's hope this case doesn't affect relations between the UK and China, as we don't need extra hassle over getting Visas etc.
-
It was a harsh sentence but my guess is they have it to deter someone from doing it? I don't believe he had a mental condition. It would have to be severe for someone to talk him into traveling and smuggling drugs and there was no sign of it, until he was caught? I can only think that unless Greed is a mental condition?
-
he wasnt all there but he was able to comprehend
so thats what did him in it was for some money
and thinking it would all fly thru
-
dont get me wrong i do belive peeps should pay for what they have done but i would not like to be the one who desides who is to die just my pennys worth.
I agree with you, victor. There are people who are deserving of death who manage to avoid it. And there are others who are deserving of mercy and who do not receive that. I am not sure that there is anyone but God who has the wisdom to make decisions about who should live and who should die.
-
Given the undeniable evidence of guilt, and an individual showing no sign of remorse for what they have done or even attempted to do. I would have no problem whatsoever signing a death warrant for such a person, none whatsoever!!
Saying that, i am generally talking here about the new breed of Islamic terrorists. They are, in my mind not your everyday normal criminals, and should never be thought of or treated as such. Most seem to want to die and become a martyr anyway, so i would be more than pleased to help them on there way....
As for sentencing general criminal types to death, I would need to be 200% sure that the individual(s) involved, was indeed guilty, and that his/her deeds deserved the death warrant. Under normal (if you can call it normal) circumstances, straight forward 1st degree murder, i would consider to be a life sentence without possibility of parole etc!!
David.....
-
Very interesting here is one to thank about.A 25 year old Chinese woman was picked up at the Beijing airport.For transportation of cocaine in 2007.When Chinese customs opend her bag.There was no cocaine.Just some residue.And that was what the drug sniffing dog picked up.So I want to know what you guy's think happend to the Chinese lady?
-
Well, i do not want to get too political regarding China here, but when you look into their human rights record, i would doubt the outcome would be too favorable on the lady. I know Thailand also has a zero drugs tolerance policy, there was an 18yr old English girl who spent over a month in a Thai prison, (i would hate to spend 1 night there...) because she was caught passing a joint from one person to another....Not the best way to spend your vacation..! Regarding the Chinese lady I assume she is still in prison, or even worse. But i could be wrong Maxx, so what happened?
Andy...
-
She was executed, (zero tolerance) if it's the same girl that i read about, while i was still in China!! But then the Chinese were executing around 2500 a year. Now they have removed the ordering of the death penalty from the lower courts around the country, but still seem to be executing around the 1500 mark since that time!! At one time the executions were carried out immediately, just taken from the courtroom to a basement room and shot in the back of the head with a low power round. (they don't like the mess a normal round can create)
The Chinese do not mess around, Frankly i'm surprised that the guy that was executed yesterday was convicted 2 years ago.... that's an awful long time to wait in China and not common!!!
David
-
Maxx, I don't know the story of the girl but if it was residue? Then there wasn't any amount, the other guy had kilo's, a big difference.
The story of the girl passing the joint reminded me of another story. A guy in Michigan (US), his story was he was hanging out and a undercover cop came up to him asking for some cocaine. He said he didn't have but ask (and pointed to) that guy over there. They arrested him and he got Life in Prison. For having knowledge of. It took like five years for him to get an appeal after much publicity, which is how I heard about it. He got out.
Here in Florida they have the death penalty. I don't know how many they do but you'll hear about one about once a year.
-
The Chinese lady was executed.Like David said 0 tolerence.If you guys get a Chance watch broke down palace.It is based on a true story about getting caught running drugs in Thailand.And Vince Vaughan did a movie a few years ago.About the same thing.It was set in Malaysia and it is based on a true story.
The leson these people learned the hard way was do not transport drugs threw Asia.
David I have heard of stays of executions in China.Any where from 6 months to 2 years.I don't know if it is true.I read it on the enternet somewhere.I don't really know why they would stop the executions.From what I read.You were still going to get executed after the time was up.You wern't going to get a new trial.There wasn't going to be new evedince brought forward.So it didn't make much sence to me.
-
As for sentencing general criminal types to death, I would need to be 200% sure that the individual(s) involved, was indeed guilty, and that his/her deeds deserved the death warrant. Under normal (if you can call it normal) circumstances, straight forward 1st degree murder, i would consider to be a life sentence without possibility of parole etc!!
David.....
But then in the UK we would need different styles of prisons where these people came into direct contact with no one - either prisoner or prison officer. Because a sentence to life without parole would make then very difficult to deal with as no matter what they do or do not do they are not going to be released. So they could simply kill every person they came into contact with and they could not be punished any more than they have been. So do we make a law to say - kill a second time and we kill you? And when does that second time start - immediately after they killed one person or after they have been convicted?
Willy
-
Well no matter what your feelings on the subject are, look at it this way, it does deter drug smuggling and drugs in china. After a while with the threat of the death sentence hanging over your head, they quit using drugs...but from what I have heard here and on the net, china has a whole bunch of healthy people because of it.
-
My two bobs worth...
The World is spending countless trillions of dollars on support programmes to try to rescue millions of ordinary people, mostly youngsters from the awful results of drug addictions caused by the totally non-defensible actions of the producers, importers and pushers of this pestilence.
There will never be an end to this treadmill until the World gets TOUGH with the source.
The death penalty is too good for most of these people....I have no sympathy whatsoever for those "poor unfortunate people" who were duped into being couriers for the "Mr Bigs"...they were not doing it for free....they all were into making money from the miserable suffering that their traffic inflicts on countless people.
In Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand and China there are BIG, repeat BIG notices everywhere in airports and public places that say "Drug dealing and/or importation will be treated as a Capital Offence and will attract a Death Sentence...you have been warned"
If anyone wants to take their chances...."do the crime, get the time".
DavidE
-
I think some of you know that I am working as a detective at the police in my hometown. I do all sort of investigations but mostly robbery and thefts but also some cases about possession of drug. I can say that about 90 to 95 % of all the cases are related to drugs in some way. Either the suspect is on drugs when he commit the crime or he needs money to buy his drugs.
I think that we have about 7000 cases of thefts and 1000 cases of robbery every year. You can understand why I hate drugs and those who make money on it. Drugs only make everyones life a misery and is to no good at all. I all of my years (34) as a policeman I only have meet 2 people that could quit the use of heroin. Everyone else are only making the society loose money when they go through every program that is trying to quit. Every day a program for stopping the use of drugs cost about 200 Euro.
The natural way to stop using heroin or other heavy drugs is to die and we see that quite often...
-
90% of the heroin in the world comes from Afghanistan says a world heath report for 09. The UN say it brought 428million US into the countries economy last year. Now according to US figures $1,673.45 is spent by the government each and every second of every day in the fight against drugs . What percentage of this is spent specifically against heroin I don't know, but I bet its a fair bit especially if you take into account the eradication costs.
In England alone,out of 207,000 problem drug users who were in treatment last year [70% of whom where heroin abusers] the official data show that just 4,600 managed to access a residential rehab bed. Meanwhile, the number of heroin users in England prescribed methadone and other substitute drugs has gone up to a record 147,500. Official figures state that it costs between 500 & 1500 pounds per week for someone to get treatment. That adds up to roughly last year alone to between 2 to 6 million a week for the lucky 4,600 who managed to get a bed and that's just England. Multiply that across Europe alone and that's a lot of money.
What I'm trying to point out here is the vast amount of money that is spent trying to control and treat the people using this drug I'm not including the cost of all the crime that is committed because or it either or the amount of money flowing into the hands of criminals. So why don't we just buy all the raw opium from the farmers in Afghanistan and stop it at its souse. Seems like a good deal to me! As a plus we would not be alienating the farmers to the point where they start shooting for a start, or having them pay the Taliban protection money. We have all the logistic's we need there right now. Put it all in one big pile all 6,900 tons of it and burn it and if production moves elsewhere we should buy that too! As a side note there was a shortage of morphine in the world year because of a lck of "medical" heroin to process.
Why don't they do this I don't know, I mean its got to be cost affective and what about all the suffering it would save! I wrote to the House of Parliament about this and I got a reply that said that it was not that simple and the farmers might not want to sell it to us. If the price was right I'm sure we could make a deal or is there another agenda at work here?
-
How long has NATO been in Afghanistan now?? You can't tell me that they don't know where this stuff is being produced, so why aren't they destroying it at source??
They can pay these farmers a fair price, but make it compulsory purchase!! They can even section off an area for legitimate production, for the worlds medical needs. It' doesn't take rocket science to sort this out while NATO is in Afghanistan, just the will to make it happen!!
Which makes you wonder WHY it's not been happening these past years!!!!
Same sort of thing goes for Cocaine, that's produced mainly in the South American countries. If there was a genuine desire to eradicate this production, it would have been done and dusted by now. And cocaine is far worse for destroying lives than Heroin, especially when it's been processed into Crack Cocaine..... For some reason, and it just has to be Money, the US and other Western countries just haven't the will or grit to carry this through!!...
David....
-
Living here in Florida, the once drug import to the US. Smuggling drugs in is an everyday thing. There are reports of large amounts of Pot and Coke being found in ship hull's and other ways. I still wonder how much comes in for there doesn't seem to be any storage. On the Pot, there are reports of homes rented and the entire home is for pot growing. More times they fine it from a house fire. The Fire Dept. goes to put out a fire and fines nothing but Pot. Meth labs are sprung up in wooded areas and the producers are living in tents. It's a hard fight.
-
I have no problem with pot, it's no more harmful than tobacco, and probably a lot less so.
As for the Meth', compared with the market for Cocaine and Heroin, there output is miniscule, but none the less, needs to be jumped on like all the other A class drugs. If ever these 2 main drugs are eventually brought under control then these Meth labs will start going into hypo production to make-up the shortfall!! .....Not Good!!!
David......
-
De-criminalise ALL drugs, make them available thru' Doctors and Pharmacy's at prices that compare with standard medicines.
Make every user who buys from Doctor or Chemist fill in an "addict registration"
Make every "wanna have a try" person who goes to purchase drugs from legal sources have a certificate of validity signed by at least 3 responsible Adults including parents and also at least one Police Officer.
The cost of drugs through this system would be peanuts, the list of addicts would be known, the criminals exit the scene because there is no money in it. Would you ads an addict spend $500 on a "hit" from a dealer...or go to your pharmacist and get it legal for $10 ????
Governments buy up all source drugs at whatever cost is necessary.
Once existing addicts can get their fix without the criminal element, their habit is sustainable without crime and they can also be enrolled in re-hab.
The producers would get the same returns, because poppy and pot farmers get tiny money for their products anyway....its the Mr Bigs who make all the dough !!
I was once told that the cocaine smuggling trade into US from S.America is so profitable that the dealers figure on losing one twin engine delivery aircraft and its cargoe out of 5...and still make squillions !!
-
You forget that once government gets the drugs they will tax it into oblivion. The will always be a market for the illegal because of taxes.
No one has been able to explain to me how decriminalizing will help when there are those who go nuts on others like police trying to subdue a crack addict. Even if a hit of heroine that costs $10.00 will soon cost $30.00 with taxes. Heroine addicts do not use mess they increase until they overdose.
-
Common sense still reigns in the China courts. They don't let lawyers get away with rationalizations.
Try suing McDonalds over spilled hot coffee in the China courts. The court would dismiss it in a New York minute, and tell the lawyer "your wasting our time get out of here".
-
If you bothered to watch Natl Geographic in the last few days, they showed where the drug dealers are not only building high tech, stealth boats, but sub's as well. But the planes spot the sub's every now and then, but they carry up to 6 tons of cocain or heron. It showed them finding all kinds of subs on land and stealth boats designed to travel for weeks at a time to get the drugs to market. They were building them deep in the Amazon forest then brought down the river during heavy rains. You had to see it, it was amazing how they were doing it and where, like in the most weirdest places in the jungle.:dodgy:
-
6 tons?? now thats a lot as it is probably pure at that stage
and needs to be cut.