China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => The Campfire => Topic started by: Paul Todd on January 14, 2010, 08:56:04 pm
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This is from the "London Evening Standard".
Front page headline.....Don't listen to the whingers - London needs immigrants.
The results in London, and especially for middle-class Londoners, have been highly positive. It's not simply a question of foreign nannies, cleaners and gardeners - although frankly it's hard to see how the capital could function without them.Their place certainly wouldn't be taken by unemployed BNP voters from Barking or Burnley - fascist au pair, anyone? Immigrants are everywhere and in all sorts of jobs, many of them skilled.
It is so much more international now than, say, 15 years ago, and so much more heterogeneous than most of the provinces, that it's pretty much unimaginable for us to go back either to the past or the sticks. Of course we're too small a country to afford an open door - but, by the same token, if the immigrants dry up, this city and this country will become a much poorer and less interesting place.
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Paul,
I must be a Whinger then!!! Because we need Indian sub continent immigrants like we need a hole in our heads!!!!! Most are not skilled in anything, and if they are, there certificates and degree's are almost all fake!!
London doesn't need these immigrants, these so-called middle class set needs them, because there not prepared to pay the minimum wage demanded by law....
I have nothing against immigration as a whole, but i am totally 110% against immigrants coming to UK, and going straight to the Social Security Office demanding money and a place to live!!
Let them prove that they have a genuine boni fide job, and a genuine salary/wage checked by authorities ''BEFORE'' they are allowed in the country. Same as every other country demands....
If on the other hand an immigrant has bona fide skills that are needed, then no problem as far as i'm concerned. but lets start using a little commonsense, and start getting things in order. A good start is listing the skills that are needed in the UK and if an applicant doesn't have them, then it's a pointless exercise granting that person entry.
I love these newspaper articles, that come out with all this crap about Immigration of these people is good for the country. Perhaps they should do a little more checking on just how much they cost the country in unemployment benifit, housing benifit, medical care, and all the other stuff they claim for......
Try immigrating yourself to another country (any country) and see just how far you will get, if you can't support yourself. One things for sure, they ain't gonna be giving you money, they ain't gonna give you a place to live, and they ain't gonna be providing your medical needs.....
One last point here, Au Pairs and overseas Nannies has been going on for years, ALL are on temporary 12 month Visa's, renewable for a further year. So you cannot include these foreign nationals as immigrants. Most of these, are Young adult women, coming to see/experience Britain, while taking extra studies to improve there English.
David
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David,
Let'e nail some of these myth's right now. Ever since I was fighting the NF[That was a political party that had a blatantly racist policy that organised marches through Indian/Pakistani housing area's ] in the streets of London in the 1970's I've heard these arguments . They where not true then and there not true now. Just to be clear I'm not calling you a racist by any means. Ok so:
Illegal immigrants are entitled to no benefits, medical treatment, housing, nothing. They can't even demand the minimum wage.
Legal immigrants have to have been in the country for a set amount of time, and earned the right to claim any sort of help or benefits,they get very little support...just enough to stop them from starving in the streets.
Refugees are entitled to bed and board, and have some rights regarding education - it depends on what sort of status they've been granted. However, they make up a tiny percentage of the people who come into this country and they are not a 'threat' to jobs and housing.
Foreign nationals do not get any sort of preferential treatment regarding jobs or housing, and many areas such as teaching and nursing would collapse were the UK to get rid of all foreign workers.
In 2007-2008, migrants in the UK contributed £31.2 billion in taxes and consumed £28.8 billion in benefits and state services. After rounding, this amounted to a net fiscal contribution of £2.5 billion. A number of assumptions were made to arrive at this
estimate but the main characteristics driving the effect were a smaller proportion of people over 65 in the migrant population and a larger percentage of migrants of working age than in the native born population. Further, although at that time a greater proportion of migrants were unemployed than was the case for the native population, a higher percentage were employed in professional and other high-skilled occupations.
The calculations relate to 2007-2008, when the government budget was in surplus overall. As a result, the average fiscal contribution of both natives and migrants was positive. Nonetheless, whilst the UK-born population was estimated to have paid almost 5 per cent more in taxes than it received in terms of public services and welfare benefits, migrants were estimated to have paid 10 per cent more than they received.
Between 2003-2004 and 2007-2008 it is estimated that revenue from migrants grew by 22 per cent in real terms as opposed to 6 per cent for the UK-born population.
The above extracts are taken form THE ECONOMIC AND FISCAL IMPACT OF IMMIGRATION: A Cross-Departmental Submission to the House of Lords Select Committee on Economic Affairs Presented to Parliament
by the Secretary of State.
Another one I hear a lot is, "Well were only a small island and they were not always here in such significant numbers there is no room left" This despite immigration into the UK dropping 44% last year and the number of people seeking Asylum dropping hugely since 2001. So let's get it straight:These figures are from the office for national statistics,
The number of people leaving the UK reached a record high in 2008, with an estimated 427,000 people emigrating. This was up from 341,000 in 2007 and 398,000 in 2006. This rise was as a result of a 50 per cent increase in
non-British citizens emigrating from 169,000 in 2007 to 255,000 in 2008. Just over half of the 86,000 increase were citizens of the
A8 Accession countries which joined the EU in 2004.
An estimated 590,000 people arrived to live in the UK in 2008, the second highest figure on record after 596,000 in 2006. This compared with 574,000 in 2007 and represents a continuation of the level of immigration seen since 2004. Of all immigrants 505,000 (86 per cent) were non-British citizens in 2008.
Net migration, the difference between immigration and emigration, decreased from 233,000 in 2007 to 163,000 as a result of increased emigration. Not a huge amount of people considering the Uk population is 61.4 million. Hardly a large burden to bear for the 10th richest democracy in the world, and the"We were better off when there were less immigrants" fails to pay attention to the fact that the nature of Britain's economy has change considerably over the last 100 years - what used to be acceptable in how "the colonies" were treated and exploited, no longer is. I've lived for long periods of my life in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and even Israel and no I've never tried to collect any kind of state benifit. I believe in earning my living just the same as most other migrants do. It's one world, the days of "we must protect what we have against the outsiders" should be long past.
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Paul,
Your right, i'm not a racist. Although i live in Cyprus, i still have many concerns towards my country of origin, and keep up (as much as possible) with it's current affairs. I, like yourself have spent most of my working life living and working overseas. So i too have worked in and around the Indian sub continent, as well as the Middle East and Asia etc.... It doesn't mean anything, apart from perhaps an insight of the general populations of those countries i've spent time in....
Lets clear one thing up straight away, in my last post i was not talking about ''illegal immigrants'' but Legal immigrants. Refugee's are yet another matter, and one that i outlined my opinions on in a previous post, save to say that over 90% of these so-called refugees are not genuine and do not meet the criteria of being a refugee, They are, to all intents-ant purposes ''economic refugees''
I'm glad you brought up that Parliamentary report, There was a lot of discussion on it within the media at the time. I can remember a guy representing the report on special BBC's Question time, and it turns out that there were so many holes in it, it really wasn't worth the paper it was written on. I think they called it ''creative accounting'' where they missed or left out significant areas where the tax payer was footing the bills. The guy that was taking the flack, couldn't or wouldn't answer specific questions put to him, and was unable or reluctant to confirm or reject other panelists figures and assessments. I am almost certain that, that report was later to dropped and deferred to a further report due summer of 2010....
You tend to put a lot of faith in reports and articles going by your threads here. I, on the other hand do not, i've found over the years that many of these reports and articles only tell you what others want you to know, or are leaning towards the authors views on the subject matter. Another thing i've learned over the years, figures can be made to reflect whatever you want them to say, ...i know that one, because i've had to use that ploy myself on many projects...lol!!
Now i will give you some facts relayed to me by two family members that hold manergerial positions in Essex County Councils Social Security departments one of whom is very high up the ladder. Refugees ''DO'' in fact get priority housing (paid for by Social Security Housing benefits Including , but not limited to deemed necessary furniture and white goods, Refugee's and Immigrants Do get substantial payments from Social Security, They all have leave to use the National Heath System, and there children are all receiving Education, including higher education.
I'm not sure if you were in the UK when the Bosnian refugee's hit Britain? Well if you can remember them, ....Surprise, surprise there still there in the UK, years after the conflict has ended, and still living in the Council houses provided for them, so still denying those houses that are basically there for the local community. .....Who knows, perhaps they too now have British passports!!!
My main point to the last post i made was towards the immigrants from the Indian sub-continent. Probably of all the immigrants we now have in the UK, have the least tendency to integrate into the British way of life, preferring instead to create there own areas within towns and cities, many of which have been turned into ghettos. Most couldn't speak English when they came and still can't now, and have no intention to learn either. They rely on there children for translation. Sure there are some high flyer's from that area of the world that have immigrated to UK and made a success, but the vast majority came to UK with no education at all, which is why the congregate into there own areas, ....at least they can communicate with there own!! One things for sure, they might not speak, write, or understand English, ...but they sure know there way around the Social Security system, and they know there rights down to the last letter, .....when it suits them!!!
As i said before, any immigrant that has a skill that is required in the UK, That has a work offer in that field and is not going to be a burden to the country, is fine by me, ... no matter what his colour or creed maybe. And lets be fair about it too, if that person can't speak a word of English what possible use is he going to be to an employer???
I could go on and on here, but i'm not, i just can't be arsed. I've witnessed things for myself, the local schools, the hospitals including the big named London hospitals and the decline of certain parts of my past local areas and parts of London. ....I'm not impressed!!! Are they the sole reason of that decline, i dare say there not, but there certainly a contributing factor, and it's a factor we can well do without....
David....
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Well said, Paul. I'm glad you you have the good sense not to subscribe to the Daily Mail-type of scapegoating of a whole nation of people, who somehow get labelled as being responsible for all the ills of the world. The National Front confuses itself by blaming immigrants for taking our jobs, then blames them for not having jobs and sponging off the state. Make up your mind.
I happen to teach in a school in East London. Many of my colleagues are of Bangladeshi origin. They are hard-working, pay taxes like the rest of us, contribute a lot to the community, do not live in a ghetto as far as I am aware, and many of them I count as good friends. I do not lump them all together and generalise about them. I visited Bangladesh last year, visiting schools in some of the rural areas and, while I saw some extreme poverty, I also saw an incredible work ethic and a respect and commitment to the value of education.
It's funny how those who are quick to castigate a whole nation or an ethnic group are slow to recognize the enormous economic benefit that they bring to a country. I, for one, am happy to live in a tolerant, multi-cultural city, where you can hear many languages spoken every day and where you are not judged solely on what you look like or where you come from, but on what you do.
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Philip,
I thought that was the whole point of the above posts, the economics of the influx of immigrants! So prey tell me where this ''Enormous economic benifit'' is, because i'm dammed sure i haven't seen any of it on my visits back to Blighty??.
The Daily Mail?? i always regarded that rag as mainly a woman's paper!!... haha!!
Why is it that anytime anyone has anything to say about immigration topics, your suddenly classed as either a member of the NF or your a racialist or even worse?? For the record, i'm neither, and i can't say i can ever remember reading the Daily Mail. But i do have my views on the matter, and those views are based on what i see with my own eyes and my own experiences. I have no truck with this Political correctness crap, i speak as i find. I don't have a closed mind either, in fact i would say it's a lot more open than many that spurt out this new wave political correctness.... One day that political correctness is going to turn round and bite many on backside!!
Now i know the East End of London, and your not going to tell me that, that isn't one of the area's of London that is now predominantly an Asian area these days. and your not going to tell me either that it's gone noticeably downhill over the last 20/25 years or so, as the Asian community has moved in. What i'm pointing out here, is exactly what i was saying above, the Asian community does not integrate, ...instead they congregate and thus draw attention to themselves and to the areas they live!!
How can you not generalise about the Asian community Philip, do you have to name them country by country?? I've lived and worked in Bangladesh, so i know exactly where and what the Bangladesh's have come from. What i don't want to see, is that life being brought to the UK... I don't mind at all hearing multi-national languages in my old City, but then i do expect them to speak and understand English too. Not for my benifit, but for there's and the countries benifit.
Have you been to the London Hospital in Aldgate recently?? Where the notice board in the foyer has not one single notice in English, were the receptionist is accompanied by a translator and the majority of the doctors have to have translators too. When i last took my late mother to the London hospital for her yearly check-up, apart from one other English guy the patients waiting area was all, of Asian decent. So Who's paying all these translators, for maybe half a dozen different Asian dialects/languages?? Just another hidden cost to the health system that no-one thinks about, until you start multiplying the different departments, then multiplying across all the London hospitals and beyond!! Starts looking a bit more serious then doesn't it??
But hey!!, i mustn't say anything, i mustn't have any thoughts on the matter, i have to follow those that wish to deny what they too can see, .....Or do they walk around with there eyes closed??
Well not me i'm afraid, ...Sorry if i offend anyone here, but if i think something is wrong i will say so, until of course i'm proved wrong. Never been frightened to speak my mind and never been frightened to admit when i'm wrong either.....
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David,
Phillip is right.The UK is a multicultural society now, there's no going back. It's not Uganda under Idi, what are you going to do send them all "home?". A great number of our Indian brothers and sisters came over in the 50's and now we have second and third generations who where born and raised here, they are as English as you and I. The integration debate is an interesting one, I love the Indian area's of our cities like I love China town and my personal favorites are the West Indian/Jamaican "Ghetto's" When you took your mother to hospital in London and I do hope she's in good heath by the way,how many doctors and nurses where of Asian decent? quite a few I'll bet.
I think people are now questioning more than ever whether multi-culturalism instead of bringing us all together actually encourages separateness, But this has to be driven to some extent by the underlying roots of discrimination and racism faced by many black and ethnic minority communities. Then you have the debate over faith based schools. Its a very complex situation.We have a strong tradition of tolerance in the UK ,look back in the Victorian era for example. Britain welcomed the most radical thinkers in Europe,most of the barred from there own country. In the home of capitalism Marx wrote Das Capital, Lenin walked the streets of east London and Bakunin and Peter Kropotkin formulated the beginnings of anarchist theory. Much later at the turn of the century French intelligence service called the capital Lononistan because of how free radical Islamists were to set up camp here. There's a lot more at stake here than first meets the eye so lets not throw the baby out with the bath water..
You correct when you say I like reports and surveys and when I post stuff here I do try to give reasons why I have said something I think its better than repeating something a friends uncles aunt who has a brother who works for whoever said. Surveys like anything else can be manipulated so I for one only use them for guidance,I suspect we are the same when we read anything like this we check to see who published it first ! There is a fine line between pointing somthing out that you see is wrong and simply whinging about it.
The Uk now has a points based immigration system like Australia, which is something I;ve advocated for a long time so at least where moving in a positive direction. I still believe these people enrich our society keep it vibrant and alive in the 21st century. I personally don't long for some long past idyllic view of middle England. In fact truth be told I find it a miserable little island full of Daily mail/Telegraph readers. so I can quite understand why you live in Cyprus and sit by your pool.
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The reason I do not generalise and make unfounded assumptions is because the majority of the asian community in my area are from Bangladesh (there are, of course quite a few Chinese asians in my area too.) But the vast majority are Bangladeshi. More than that, they are mostly from the Sylhet region of Bangladesh. Do you see how you can be specific if you actually know the people? It will be a surprise for my Bangladeshi friends to hear that they don't mix and that they and their families keep themselves to themselves. They will have a good laugh about that one. They will also be curious to discover that their community has been responsible for the decline of the East End.
The East End has a disenfranchised white working class. Again, I work with many people who remember the East End as it used to be. Their homes have been knocked down and replaced by yuppie apartments for rich people who work in Canary wharf. Although it would be easy for those hard-working white men and women to scapegoat another disenfranchised group, they are wise enough to resist such pat generalisations.
Yes, I do know that hospital. Many of the children in my school have complex medical conditions (they have learning difficulties) and they spend a lot of time in that hospital. There are many asian doctors there and they help save lives, rather than ruin livelihoods. My brother and his wife had a baby at that hospital two weeks ago and I don't think they received an inferior service for being white. I have a lovely healthy nephew.
What are these half a dozen dialects and languages? In the Sylhet region of Bangladesh, they speak Sylheti and they read standard Bengali. - end of story. When I go to China, despite my efforts to learn the language, I am certainly grateful to have a translator while I am struggling (electronic or human)
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Paul, Philip,
Your both making assumptions about my views on immigration. For the record i haven't said or implied that i want to take the UK back 50 years or whatever. I also have no problem with multi cultural society in UK. So instead of making unfounded assumptions, why not answer the points i've raised here. No, ...instead you bypass, and go off in another direction, widening the field as you go.
If you noticed, i didn't say that the treatment of patients at the London Hospital was inferior or bad, i was asking/stating the point about the cost of all these translators that seemed to be everywhere. Is that not a drain on the health system in the UK, and one we could well do without??
Also i'm sure there are Asian nurses within that hospital, but i would say there are far more Caribbean nurses than Asian.
Philip, i have no idea what part of the East End of London you live and work in, but i know that there are a lot more communities than just Bangladeshis in the East End. Frankly i'm not going name each and every country, region, and sect and religion. Quite honestly there is absolutly no need for being that specific in this discussion.
You did make me laugh though Philip, when you stated/implied that indigenous white folk of the East End had no-problems with the amount of Asian communities now established in the East End, because they ''DO'' ...and are more than vocal about it when ever the subject is broached. Many have reluctantly moved out of the area for that very reason, ...So again your making assumptions that suit your belief and not based on fact.
i'm going to cut this short now, ...Basically what i originally started off saying and still believe that London and basically the whole of UK needs more Asian immigrants like we need a hole in the head.
Immigration has an overall debt cost to the country/taxpayers and don't let anyone fool you into thinking otherwise. Refugee's/Asylum seekers are basically economic illegal immigrants, that have traveled thousands of miles through countless countries to reach Britain, where they know they can get free everything, and money in there pocket. Now if the UK can come up with a system that works, where Immigration doesn't cost the country money, then great that's fine by me, until then, my views on this subject remain the same.
Two last points, .... Philip, whatever translation method you go for in China, YOU will be paying for it, it don't come free...Right??
Yes, i do live in Cyprus Paul, i've worked all my life to have what i enjoy now, it has nothing to do with immigration in the UK whatsoever!!! This what my late wife and i had planned for years.
Believe it or not, even this little Island of Cyprus is now experiencing an influx of Asians, ...Thank God, they don't give them Passports here. they get 2 years and then they have to GO!!! But hey!! they are trying the asylum thing too, funny, ....just before they have to go home!!!
David....
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David,
Where do you get these idea's from? Here are some facts not here say or rumours whipped up by the press. Please have a close look at them. Thanks:
The facts to undermine the racist myths,
There is no such person as an 'illegal asylum seeker'. By law, anyone has the right to enter Britain and apply for asylum, and to stay until a final decision has been made. The government is not allowed to penalise a refugee or asylum seeker for having false papers or ID - the 1951 Convention to which Britain is a signatory recognises the difficulty of gathering the correct papers when fleeing war or persecution.
Three out of four asylum seekers are fleeing countries in conflict: Iraq, Somalia and Afghanistan have been in the top five sources of refugees for the last three years. In 2006 23 percent of asylum applications were granted, and one in five appeals went in favour of the applicant.
In 2006 there were 1,396,000 overseas workers in Britain and 49,370 asylum applications.
The largest group of people who come to Britain to work are European - 517,000 - and a third of those are Irish. 87,000 Australians and New Zealanders are happily residing here; yet the headlines in the Sun and the Express never reflect this. Ask yourself why?
A Mori poll in 2006 found that respondents believed 23 percent of the world's refugees came to Britain. In reality Asia hosted half of all refugees, asylum seekers and internally displaced persons, with Iran hosting most refugees (1.3 million out of a total 10 million). Britain hosted 270,000 refugees - just 2.8 percent of the total and 0.4 percent of the British population. Yes 0.4%,spongers everywhere?
Asylum seekers cannot claim mainstream benefits. A single adult must survive on just 38.96 per week - 70 percent of basic income support. A report by Oxfam and the Refugee Council found that 85 percent of asylum seekers experience hunger, 95 percent cannot afford to buy clothes and 80 percent cannot maintain good health. Asylum seekers make up just 0.5 percent of those receiving benefits in Britain. Not a great amount is it!
A Home Office report shows that people born outside the UK contribute 10 percent more to the economy in taxes than they consume in benefits and public services - equivalent to 2.5 billion a year. Looks like a benifit to the country to me!
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The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain.
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Hehe hehe point taken Shaun :icon_cheesygrin:
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No worries Paul. I am in one of those messing with people moods tonight. It was all in fun.:icon_cheesygrin:
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All I want to say is that Phillip lives in a part of London that I know well - In my lifetime it has changed from being a mainly Jewish area to one where the Bangladeshis have really settled in.
Where I used to live in North London is a massive Turkish/Kurdish element and going up to Tottenham and Edmonton Africans are prominent.
In Southall there is a enormous Indian population. In N and NW london the Poles and other nationalities are widespread. Different parts of London have their own proportion of immigrants from one country or another.
I have no idea whether they contribute positively or not to the economy - all I know is that London as a city has changed so much in the last 30 years that I do not recognise it as the place it once was. The same can be said of Manchester, Birmingham and some other cities.
Whether it is a good or bad thing I no longer care as I never intend to go back there to live. The people of the UK have made their choice and they have to live with it, usually egg on by the middle class do gooders who live far far outside of the city centres and really have a blinkered approach to what it is like to actually live in a modern day Inner City. Even some MPs who represent London Boroughs generally live outside of London or in the leafy suburbs.
Ok so i am an immigrant now in China. But I can truly say that I have brought with me the higher level of behaviour than is now clearly not evident in London.
But what is happening in cities in UK, is probably happening in USA and most other so-called liberal westerm democracies BUT will not happen in China in my lifetime. It will not be allowed to happen.
Immigrants now refuse to accept housing association accommodation and only want to move into directly owned council property so that they have a RIGHT TO BUY!!
Met Police has a large but special unit for solely dealing with Black on Black killings.
85% of young people jailed for murdering other teenagers in the past five years have been from immigrant familes.
The list goes on and I no longer have an answer but just one question WHY?
Willy
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because we coddle everyone and allow it to go on
in theory because we dont want to offend
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Paul,
Your still wrapping yourself up warm in figures that have already been called to question as to there accuracy.
My reason behind the statement about Refugee's/Asylum seekers is that, Why are they there in UK in the first place?? They cross scores of countries that are more than able to accommodate them, but NO, they come to the UK. So as far as i'm concerned they are basically illegal economic immigrants trying to get in the back door. Is that clear enough??
You can spout reports and figures from now to next year, I've already expressed my thoughts on government figures etc, there there for a purpose, and it's certainly not telling you the full picture. And there certainly not ''Facts'' Like so many in the UK your being treated like mushrooms, ...Kept in the dark and fed plenty of shit!!
You or Philip have yet to answer any questions that i've put in these posts, instead you spout of meaningless figures, and divert off into other areas widening the subject, i first commented on. If you want to widen, i can widen as far as you want. I don't walk around when back in the UK with blinkers on. I can see with my own eyes what's happening back home. For you and Philip, to come out and tell me i'm wrong and that everything in the garden is rosy, ...just beggars belief!!
I was home during the major influx of the Bosnian refugee and asylum seekers. They were given hundreds of pounds each on arrival, they WERE given priority on housing, and they were and still are getting more than 38 quid a week. ....either that, or there subsidising there income thru there illegal activities like the thieving and pimping they seem to have made there trademark in my old area. So, why are these so called refugees still in the UK, the conflict in that area has long since passed??
Paul there are so many hidden costs to immigration, and especially Asian immigrants. Language is a big hidden cost, like Special teachers at schools, Translation services at every National and local authority public service level, (from the inland revenue thru to Social services and everywhere in between and beyond) Medical and psychiatric services is another big cost ticket, and that's apart from the additional strains put on those services. So i reiterate once again, Immigration has a debt cost to the country and don't be fooled into thinking otherwise.... That Home Office report, was as i remember a part of the dropped Parliamentary Report you were quoting in an earlier post, ....It's only a comfort to those that WANT to believe they generate a surplus....
Seems to me, that anyone that does not agree on many of the current immigration issues are quickly labeled racists, and were nothing of the kind, we are people that can see what has happened and is still happening to our country and our society. And quite frankly we don't want it to continue,...enough is enough!! Contrary to what we are all given to believe, Thru the media officialdom, and the TV, the general population that have had enough are not in the minority, we are in the majority. But are browbeaten to say nothing, because at the end of the day it only causes trouble for us.
I have read what Willy had to say here, and frankly that is a genuine typical Londoner reaction. Unlike Willy, many have tried to move out into the suburbs or into adjoining County's in the past, only to find a few years later the same thing happening there too. Willy is now in the right place as he's now the immigrant, but an immigrant that has no cost to his new country, and that's exactly how it should be in the UK .....ZERO cost!!
Paul, ...You, Philip or anyone else for that matter isn't going to convince me that what i see with my own eyes and what i have personally witnessed is WRONG, and that conceived reports and creative accountancy along with your personal suportive views are RIGHT!!, there NOT, ...not for me!!....
David.....
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David,
I have no need to wrap myself in warm figures, and by whom are they being called into question ? You say you do not trust Government statistics but a lot of the reports I quoted where not by any government body but by mori polls and Oxfam. The government reports that I did include where backed by Amnesty International, Oxfam, the Refugee council and more.
I total agree that the system we have in the UK is by no means perfect but it is being reformed and in the correct way I believe.
To class all asylum seekers as economic migrants is crass and dangerous thing to do. I know how much you dislike research and reports but here is another one released today by the Refugee council in conjunction with Swansea university { not a government stooges} and states:
January 2010
Independent research published by the Refugee Council today has revealed refugees have little, if any, choice over which country they claim asylum in, and that few know what to expect before they arrive in the UK. The groundbreaking report ‘Chance or Choice: Understanding why asylum seekers come to the UK’, by Professor Heaven Crawley of Swansea University, also shows that harsh policies which make the lives of asylum seekers tougher after their arrival in the UK have no demonstrable influence over whether people claim asylum in the UK.
In-depth interviews with asylum seekers and refugees revealed that:
•Over two thirds did not choose to come to the UK.
•Most only discovered they were going to the UK after leaving their country of origin.
•The primary objective for all those interviewed was reaching a place of safety.
•Around three quarters had no knowledge of welfare benefits and support before coming to the UK – most had no expectation they would be given financial support.
•90% were working in their country of origin and very few were aware they would not be allowed to work when they arrived in the UK.
The majority of the interviewees explained their lives were in danger and that they had to leave their home countries very quickly– within a few days or weeks – leaving them little time to plan or pick their destination. In addition, most were helped to leave by an external party or agent, who made the key decisions about their destination and helped facilitate their journey to safety.
While none of those interviewed came to the UK in order to seek work, they fully expected to have to work to support themselves, and were not anticipating being given money by the government to live on. The single biggest area of British life they were familiar with was football.
In the 1990s, the inflow of irregular migrants to meet strong labour demand reached levels that wrecked the refugee system. In the popular mind, the adjective "bogus" became indissolubly cemented to the noun "asylum-seeker". I agree that there are many people coming to our shores in the hope of a better life and are piggy backing on the genuine refugee's. No one can deny this as the figures that you so easily dismiss prove. Roughly two thirds of all applications are refused they are kept in camps and returned home. I will not widen the debate to include this as you seem to think this to be a narrow subject. I at no time said that everything was Rosy in the garden and to infer that from my posts is misleading. Once again I agree that there are many hidden costs to immigration if you want to focus on the negative side be my guest.
Myself I think as a modern Christian democracy we have a duty not only to shelter people who are in danger form tyrannical governments and illegal regimes but to set an example for others to follow. How can we as a country turn our backs on such people. If the cost of this is that a lot of unscrupulous people try to work the system well that's just human nature. For some perspective on the whole question here some more of those figures you dislike and mistrust so much David. This time from the UNHCR and not our government:
The UK is home to less than 2% of the world’s refugees – out of 16 million worldwide. (UNHCR, 2007 Global Trends: Refugees, Asylum seekers, Returnees, Internally displaced and Stateless Persons, 2008)
•Over 520,000 refugees have fled the conflict in Sudan to neighbouring countries, yet only 265 Sudanese people applied for asylum in the UK in 2007 (UNHCR 2007: Global Trends; and Home Office Statistical Bulletin: Asylum Statistics United Kingdom 2007, 2008)
•About 80% of the world’s refugees are living in developing countries, often in camps. Africa and Asia host more than three quarters of the world’s refugees between them. Europe looks after just 14%. (UNHCR, 2007 Global Trends: Refugees, Asylum seekers, Returnees, Internally displaced and Stateless Persons, 2008)
•In 2008, the UK was ranked 17th in the league table of industrialised countries for the number of asylum applications per head of population. (UNHCR Asylum levels and trends in industrialised countries 2007 and 2008 )
Do you believe that this small number of people reresent such a large threat to the English way of life as to lump them all together and turn your back on them? What for economic resons!
I have some simpathy with Willy's view as we get older we notice the changes all around us an in some respect long for the things to remain constant. Before I moved to China I took a trip back to my old home town, couldn't regognise much of it and in my view the majority of changes where not for the better. Makes me wonder what the Victorians and even before that thought about the successive waves of foreign immigration into London, The Huguenot refugees in Spitalfields in the 17th century who were followed by Irish weavers then Ashkenazi Jews and, in the 20th century, Bangladeshis. I'm sure they spoke the same words....I remember when.....:icon_cheesygrin:
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Jezzz can we get a truce here soon? I am gratified for all the knowledge and for not stooping low into name calling. Amen! :-/
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But Paul why by your figure are there approx 320,000 ayslum seekers in the UK.
You should claim asylum in the first country you arrive at. To GB that mean people from Ireland and France, Netherland and Belgium, Portugal and Spain and maybe a few other countries can reasonably apply for ayslum in the unlikely event that their lifes were in danger if sent back to these countries.
So 2/3rds did not choose to come to Britain. Are you telling me that they have been drugged and suddenly wake up outside the social security office after travelling thousands of miles in many cases.
I am with David on this one. The figure quoted as official are a load of rubbish, being involved with Black Churches in London I know just how many illigal immigrants there are - these are condoned by the majority of pastors - why because of money- they pay 'tithes' to churches from whatever they can illegally obtain.
Just see what happens when the Border Agency sts up at Stratford Staion the word soon goes round and you see the hundreds going off to work reduced to a trickle as hundreds turn round and go home waiting for th execisae to finish.
Unless someone gets off a plane having travelled from the Country they are running from AND SHOW travel documents from that country then they should be sent right back.
Those coming across the channel have no rights. Even those who have attained their citizenship the hard way are saying enough is enough.
Willy
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Vince,
This maybe a heated discussion, but i bear no malice towards Paul or Philip, and i hope they don't towards me. We just hold very different views on this particular subject. We are seeing things from different perspectives basically, and i guess we all think that were right ..lol!!
They aren't going to change my mind and it's obvious, i'm not going to change theirs!! sel-a -vie...haha!!
David...
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I only put my 1 cent in for it looks like a deadlock in figures. I'm not saying anything is wrong. Just wonder where it's going to end? Carry on.
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Vince,
You might consider splitting this thread starting at post 31. I would but I do not know how to or if I have enough stroke to.
Shaun
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Paul,
That report you first quoted got panned from many different parties and agency's to the point where it was dropped in favour of a new investigation into the real cost of immigration which i believe is due to be released later this year.
Paul, God, when did anyone ever take notice of ''polls,'' be it by Mori or anyone else's!!??? Oxfam and other agency's have their own agenda's so any report they release or support will always be slanted towards their agenda...good or bad reports!!
Sorry Paul, i don't believe for a New York second the first 4 points you raised about the interviews of Asylum seekers and refugees. As i've stated previously, if these displaced person needed a place of safety, the neighbouring country's would be that safe haven, not a country thousands of miles away from their country of origin..... What external parties are organising these refugees to the UK?? Whoever they are the need to be bloody well stopped!!!!!
Again Paul, Those many hidden costs are Extremely important, because when you add them all up, your talking about an Extreme amount of money, ....money that could be better spent elsewhere!! If that's what you mean by me being Negative, your dammed right, ...it's one of THE Major issues i have on this subject!!!
Now, about the rosy garden, you didn't actually say it, ...but you are certainly implying it. You said that you enjoy frequenting/visiting the Asian areas.... but you don't live in them do you!! your not having to live there 24/7 like the local indigenous population. You are, or seem to be under the impression, that the these local people welcome and enjoy the presence of these Asians taking over there communities, (and it is a take-over in many cases) ...Well, ...They DON'T!!
I suggest you go and do your own survey, and get the real answers from the horses mouths, so-to-speak!! instead of listening to whats being bandied about by politicians (who are now frightened to upset Asian voters) and the media.... and of course those dammed reports and surveys you take so much heed of.
The fact of the matter is Paul, regardless of how rich/wealthy you consider the UK to be, it is still only a very small country in terms of area. Even in terms of our present population growth, there is already a shortage of housing. We just don't have the capacity to continue welcoming more and more immigrants refugees/asylum seekers, we have far more than enough NOW!! ...So 2% of the worlds 16 million displaced people is 2% too many....
And on a final point, the least tolerated of all immigrants, refugees/asylum seekers in the UK are the Asians. Why is that do you think? My theory is that it's because they don't and wont integrate into the existing communities, but rather congregate into there own communities. The outcome of this is, that as the numbers increase, they take over the whole community. Such as has happened in parts of the East End of London, Wolverhampton, and other city areas around the UK. I'm pretty sure that the waves of immigration in the 17th century you spoke of, bore little or no resemblance to the type of numbers we are seeing today!! And i bet they didn't cost the country a single Penny either!!!
I have always found as a general trait, that if you give Asians an inch, then there after you for the whole mile. They are never satisfied and always scheming to get more... Now,..Before you start, i have had 100's if not 1000's of Asians workers of every nationality and creed working under me, on virtually every project i've ever worked on over the years, and in virtually every overseas country i've worked in... and i'm only telling here, .... how it is!! ...It's an observation, not a prejudice...
David......
Vince,
Sure it'll end in deadlock, i think we all know that... But it's good to hear how the other side see's things, and where there coming from.
Immigration in the UK is no,no subject unless you agree with the ''politically correct'' stand. Most don't, but because of a political party called the NF (basically a Nazi party) as soon as anyone stands up and says anything about foreign immigration your automatically classed as an NF supporter or a racist. When all there really doing is having a concern for there country and where it's going....
David....
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How about a perspective from an Aussie.........
Much of the debate on this thread enters the half-life of Migrants vs Refugees.
As I am sure you all know, Australia has almost 100% of its population as a result of Migration. Yes, I know there are Indigenous Aboriginals here...but they are a very tiny percentage of the population.
Since the establishment of Australia as a Penal Colony by the Brits in the middle of the 19th Century, some 8 Million "foreigners" have come here as Legal Migrants ( I was one of them !!!).
Migrants have come from many different Countries and made a cosmopolitan and integrated society which was good to live in.
For many, many years Australia had a "Whites Only" Migration Policy that was maybe Politically unsafe, but was formulated to minimise problems of Culture and Cultural Integration into the existing population.........and it worked !!!
Since the Politically correct decision to abandon ANY Policies based on race, colour or creed was established in the 1980's our racial problems have got worse and worse.
Ethnic seperation and isolation are now inherent in our society....and this is happening in a Migration based culture where every migrant needs to go through a meticuluous and detailed paper process , taking 12 months or more, to get here.
Now we are seeing the results of the "next wave" of migration...the so-called Economic and Political refugees.
Large numbers of people are somehow, at great cost and at great peril, making their way to Indonesia, getting involved with people smugglers
and making the illegal journey across to Aus. When they arrive, they are taken to processing facilities where they are processed as refugees and allowed into the Mainland with mountains of Government money and support systems that genuine Australians can only dream about. One can only ask...."where did such people who are supposed to be destitute refugees get the large amounts of money to pay People Smugglers...because it aint cheap " !!!!! It takes about 8 weeks to get them issued with Temporary Resident Visas !!!!! If I bring my wife/fiance to Aus...and support her 100%, with no assistance from the Gov't. it will take at least 12 months of hell to get a Temporary Resident Visa !!!
To my knowlege, only 4 people have been returned to whence they came because they were deemed security risks...and this happened last week over some Sri Lankans. So what sort of people are we letting into our Country...who knows ...how will this pan out down the track when we have no idea if this is a deliberate act to seed future discontent in our society ??
Meanwhile, thousands of people from all over the World are waiting years to legally migrate to Aus and have been prepared to go down this track, rather than try for illegal entry. This includes all us poor buggers who want to bring our fiance/wife from another country to live with us here.
The issue is now dividing our society, is alienating people from every culture and threatens to overwhelm our basic way of life.
Everybody knows that Australia is a bloody big place with very few people...but most people dont realise that 99.6% of the Australian Continent is a ferocious Desert and would never be fit for human habitation. So all these new "migrants" are living in the cities, our infrastructure is stretched, our Government has gone soft on illegals, they get much more than any "normal citizen" and they refuse to integrate anyway...preferring to exactly match their previous culture and not change.
It is the downside of the Migrant vs refugee debate and here in Aus will sooner or later explode !!!!
DavidE
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Since the establishment of Australia as a Penal Colony by the Brits in the middle of the 19th Century, some 8 Million "foreigners" have come here as Legal Migrants ( I was one of them !!!).
Holy shit!!! Exactly how old are you?
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Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery old !!!!!!!!
:icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:
David
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I will say this, my parents were immigrants to Canada. Not all asians are like as you described, we have assimilated into the Canadian culture. My first wife is a Quebecer after all (I apologize for all Quebecers).
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This will be a debate that rages on forever. No two sides will ever see eye to eye. Any country that accepts immigrants will always have this debate. I know it is similar here in Canada.
I think we should agree to disagree. Either side is sticking to their guns, and nobody is budging. I will keep this thread open, however, in the interest of the forum, I ask that you keep it civil, and be careful about comments that can be considered racist.
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RegnisTheGreat,
I think you'll find that the gist of what's being discussed here are those Asians from in and around the Indian sub continent.
Yes i agree very much with you, the Chinese do generally assimilate very well into the communities they live in....
David......
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I find this who debate quite interesting as an Irish person.
Before the potato blight arrived in ireland we had a population of over 8 million, afterwards that shrank to around 3.5 million through deaths and emigration.
Potato was a subsistence food for the impoverished and enslaved Irish ..that's another story i'm not getting into! When the crop failed it was starve to death or emigrate.
To this day there are large Irish communities in America and Australia in particular. I've even read tha,t in Boston on paddies day, they dye the river green to celebrate!!
During the late 90's and early 00's we had a massive influx of eastern Europeans here, Polish in particular, and more and more recently, the Chinese (to my delight!!).
So what's the point of my ramble? Well the Irish didn't really integrate well (as in become like the locals), we stayed pretty much with our own communities, had "Irish Bars" but as a generally amiable people I think we were accepted by the locals on as a whole. The Polish immigrants here are just like the famine Irish migrants of old, except in reverse, they are coming to Ireland. They are Catholic, friendly, hard working and likeable. But they have their own shops and pubs etc just like we have in America and Australia.
The Chinese are like this too, they are likeable, hard working and honest people but they also keep their national identity, just think of Chinatowns everywhere.
When I was in Malaysia in Penang with Ling 2 we went to a music show where Chinese people sang traditional Chinese songs to an appreciative Chinese audience. It really struck me how similar our cultures are. Go to any Irish pub in America or Australia and there with be some guy with a guitar singing rebel songs full blast and an appreciative misty eyed bunch of paddies listening to them as they down their pints of the "black stuff" (Guinness to the lao wai here :icon_wink:).
Integration is an interesting thing, i think like the Irish, Chinese and Polish people it is possible to keep your own culture and be a welcome addition to society you immigrate into.
However some cultures just don't integrate well for some reasons..ask any Italian about the Romany people and stand back... Just one example, i can think of many others but don't want to be accused as a racist which I am not.
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Ronan,
The Irish integrate far more and much better than you you think. For one thing they Emigrated in the whole, to country's that spoke English as the main language. You also had fundamentally, ...a culture that wasn't too different to those country's you emigrated to either.
Sure, there are always Irish pubs or bars in the areas where there are larger number of Irish living (hey, we even have them here in Cyprus) but you also see the local people frequenting them too!!
Your also right, that the Irish are generally an amicable bunch, and have a traditional dry sense of humour that can laugh at themselves and at others without a hint of offence.
I believe this is one of the qualities that draw the locals in these country's to the Irish.
Though times have changed since those days of mass emigration, The costs to those country's you emigrated to, would have been minimal and very short term. Unlike those of today from the the Indian sub continent and Asia minor. Where language and culture is totally Alien to the country's they are immigrating too. They can and do, command enormous costs from those country's.
You hit the nail on the head Ronan, you didn't want to name others, because straight away, there are those that would label you a ''racist'' even though your not!! ..And we are all here either with, or looking for a Chinese wife!!!! The main bulk of people in these affected country's with huge Asian numbers already, are basically just saying ...OK!! enough is enough now!!
David.....
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Define racist.
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Philip,
Perhaps it would be better if you define Racist...
If you are implying that i have (and others here have) an over all discrimination against everyone that is not of my race, then i think you have me totally wrong. I would not have lasted 5 minutes on the projects i've worked on throughout my career. Maybe you'll be even more surprised by the fact that i have many very good friends of Asian decent, that i'm in regular contact with. And that have spent holidays with me here in Cyprus...
I have pointed out a particular area of the world that the UK has the biggest current problem with in terms of Immigration/Asylum Seekers/Refugees. I'm sorry, but i can't think of any other way of putting over my points, than to define those races that are costing the UK ongoing serious amounts of money....
So i would very much like to know, if your definition of ''Racist'' covers me in it's blanket meaning??
David....