China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => Newbies Corner => Topic started by: Martin on March 10, 2010, 11:10:49 pm
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This has been a topic I have thought about, often for many months. It is a topic as real, as the very ladies that we have taken an interest in. However, I don't know if we have discussed enough, the importance of the language barrier, and its effects on our relationships.
Lately, there have been some issues within the brotherhood. One issue I have seen come up a few times, is the issue of common language. I will admit here, that some of the issues I know about, while coming from the brotherhood, have not always been posted on this forum. Some I have heard about on MSN, at least one instance that I heard about from my wife (regarding a brother), and some of it is my personal experience.
The problem (well, one of many) with chnlove, is the use of translators. I feel that this service kind of lulls us into a feeling that the woman we are writing to, are proficient in the English language. Even though we know that we are using a translator, I think its easy to forget that the woman at the receiving end, may not speak English.
Then we travel to China, and we meet these wonderful women, who have revealed so much to us. And we can convince ourselves that the language barrier is only a temporary problem. After all, you know her heart. Her words were so beautiful. So you jump in and get married. Maybe you are one of the lucky ones who gets to bring his wife to your country quickly...or maybe you are like the rest of us...waiting. But somewhere along the line, you are going to realize that you don't speak the same language as your wife (or possibly girlfriend).
You will find that this gets frustrating. How can i be married to someone that can't understand me? And there will be a lady in China asking herself the same question. Or maybe you are living together...arguments ensue. Arguments, and frustration, from both of you, because you just can't freely speak your mind, and speak from your heart. Everything needs to be explained...and re-explained. And then you will have to change your words around. Maybe try speaking Chinglish.
The fact is, there is going to be a language barrier, unless your lady is fluent in English, or you are fluent in her language. This is the reality. With everything else being discussed on this site, I felt that this needed to be discussed, and guys need to know what is in store. This issue should not be under estimated. Does this mean you should give up while you are ahead? No, this is not what I am suggesting. I am just warning you, so you can be better prepared.
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As I keep saying Martin. Patience is the word.
Even after 10 months here I cannot hold a real conversation with anyone speaking Chinese. A phrase here or another there is about all I manage. My wife and I get along great with phrases consisting of as few a number of words as possible.
I keep saying to people that if you want a meaningful conversation then only select a Chinese lady who is absolutely fluent in English.
Try as you will I almost guarantee that once you get your wives back to your own countries your use of Chinese will drop and you will end up speaking only in English. Except of course when you are with friends and you want to impress then you will remember the odd Chinese phrase or two!!!!
I am learning but it is a slow process. Brain power goes with age. No sure why the Chinese think that wisdom comes with age!!!!!
We do have an electronic translator and also my wifes niece lives 4 floors up and her English is very good. But without these additional items then maybe frustration would come into being even with my very carefree character. But if you are prone to impatience then stop right now I would say unless you have found one that speaks perfect English.
Willy
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Martin,
very good post on language. it is the one thing that often gets overlooked. but i think is
one of the most important. if your lady is learning english while awaiting your arrival and
also after your arrival and going to your country you have to keep in mind she will not speak
very good english when she gets there. #1 she has no were to practice after she goes to were
she is learning
#2 most ladies who can speak very good english have
been studying and practicing for years.
#3 they dont understand all words even after
they learn to speak so you will have to explain
lots of words to her.
#4 you should also make a certain effort to learn
some chinese as it is not easy
after meeting and getting things done to come to your country then reallity sets in that hey we
have everyday life to do now ad this is difficult enough and you must have a lot of patience for
this will be trying times. so all newbies to this as Martin said it is a reality that needs to be thought
about. the newness of the relationship wears off fast when you get together because of the everyday
life issues. so keep it in mind and dont expect just her to learn it works both ways
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Well.
I've been talking with a colleague yesterday about it, in fact.
He told me that, whatever man is married to a chinese woman, or a swedish woman, or a german one (for example), she could "never" be able to talk our born language. I mean, if you really like your job and can use specific words and if you want to talk to your love about it, or if you really like something and really want to talk about it, she might just understand a few words about it, and may can reply or argue it with you, but just a little bit...
I have to admit, he's probably right. As for me in Chinese, I just know a few words, I can also say something I like or not, I can say "It is beautiful", but how to argue when I don't know all the words.. so that, sometimes... I just can feel "lost in words/translation".
But I do think too, that yes, Patience is the key. I do believe in "Paris wasn't built in one day", so it's the same about language barrier.
Whatever it may take 2-3 or even 5 years, I am ready to learn and be able one day to follow a nice discussion all in mandarin with Liyan, just because it will be very good for each of us.
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I dont want to take anything away from this very good and very relevant post.
But here in Aus, almost 70% of the population comes from non-english speaking natives.
Also, My daughter is Headmistress of a school that specialises in teaching English to the children of non-English speakers.
According to our Education Department, a person in a "full immersion" process (where a non-English speaker is placed in a total English speaking environment) can be expected to be fluent for all normal conversational purposes in about 2 years.
Interestingly, at about this time, apparently the non-English speakers begin to dream in English, which is a signal that their level of understanding is good enough.
From 2 years on, it is only a question of refinement and increasing vocabulary and syntax.
After about 4 years, the person will have difficulty with conversation in his/her original language. So if your Lady wants to maintain her fluency in Chinese, then she would need to be continually practising...probably with you !!!
So, dont despair, at some point in time, your Chinese wife/girlfriend will be able to converse with you in-depth. It is not an easy process and much patience is needed on both sides...but it WILL happen, there is light at the end of that particular tunnel !!
David
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Heck, communicating with someone in the language you both know can lead to misunderstandings and having to explain what you mean. Words can be taken many ways. Learning to communicate in any relationship is one important key to the success of it. Patience is obviously going to be centrally important.
Although I have little to no experience yet with this in regards to a chinese lady, I do have some experience with my ex, who is bilingual-but french is her first language. She is pretty fluent in english, but even then I had to explain things to her. There were plenty of misunderstandings because I assumed she understood something I said correctly, and she didn't, and took it the wrong way. Later when the issue came back up, and I realized she had misunderstood me, I had to explain myself-which she then often took as me trying to coverup something or change my story.
I wish I had taken more time to learn her language. I did learn a little french, but to be honest I wasn't serious about learning it well enough to carry on a conversation in it. It didn't seem necessary to do so, since to me she spoke english well enough. Nobody here where I live speaks french, of course, not in day to day communication. I think that contributed to her sense of isolation when she came. And I would think that with these ladies from China, this is going to be true in spades. If they come to your country to live, they are leaving everything they've ever known behind, and coming to some place that is completely foreign to the vast majority of them. That certainly can cause a high level of insecurity that is going to play a huge role in the relationship until they can adjust to it.
So to me, it seems very important for us men to take the time to try to learn their language. I also think it can help if you can find other ways to keep them connected to the place they've come from-like finding a chinese family or community at or near where you live, someplace they can go to so that they can feel a little less disoriented with their circumstances. You guys living on the west coast are fortunate this way. Here near St. Louis where I live, after investigating it a bit, I've found there is a chinese community, as well as a chinese language newspaper that is circulated. I already knew there are some chinese families in the area where I live, which is north of St. Louis a bit. I don't know if in the end I will marry one of these women and bring her here, but I am trying to find ways to build a bridge over the rivers of her insecurities for her into the new life she'll have if this happens. And I do-and am-trying to learn the language as best I can, both for the now and the potential later to come.
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From what I see in work, very few mainland Chinese can speak or especially write very good English. I see some crazy written stuff, I really do :icon_cheesygrin:.
Our Chinese teacher's spelling is a bit wacky sometimes and she's been in the UK for 20 years.
Basic Mandarin isn't that difficult, but to be fluent you would need to know the subtle things like knowing if something pretty is mei or hen, and occasions when characters like ? have different pronunciations, and exactly what classifier to use for an item, and all the thousands of expressions the Chinese have :dodgy:. There's a lot to learn.
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George Dubya Bush has been living in America his whole life, and still the people "misunderestimated him" !!! :blush:
My experience is that conversational Chinese is a lot easier to learn than the written/cultural context. Yes, David is right as usual, immersion helps tremendously. If I didn't mention it, how many of you guys would even know that I'm Asian? I learned English at school, and Chinese by immersion.
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Martin...I think this is a great thread..
I have things I am going to say in another thread, and the brotherhood will think I am CRAZY...BUT I'm not. (sorry now on to my point.)
Patience is the KEY...
Learning the language is important..
I found from this very forum, that the best way for the ladies to understand you is to 'SPEAK' with them like you would a child...(not being nasty here)
Use words and phrases etc that you think they are able to understand.
For example, my lady is not bad at english, so i was chatting to her the other night and said that "A saying (?) in my Country ..." She could not understand waht i was talking about, I had to explain what a SAYING was (Phrase). So we all have to speak clearly and precisely and not use unfamiliar words when talking with them...
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Another point to be made about the language barrier...I am sure a few people can relate, and maybe want to add more, is that in my experience (and that of at least one other brother), is that the Chinese do not seem to understand sarcasm. Being somewhat of a sarcastic person, I hate using sarcasm, and then having to spend another hour explaining myself.
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Martin...I think this is a great thread..
I found from this very forum, that the best way for the ladies to understand you is to 'SPEAK' with them like you would a child...(not being nasty here)
Use words and phrases etc that you think they are able to understand.
Rob
You are not being nasty at all...in fact you are absolutely correct in what you say.
Do we all remember the last time we needed to teach someone English who did not know a single word...???.......yes we do, it was our kids when they were babies. And this is EXACTLY how we should teach our Chinese Women to speak English. After all, when our kids first went to school to enter a formal learning programme, they already spoke good English (or whatever your native language is) and WE were their only teachers up to that point.
So baby talk is the accepted and bulletproof way to begin teaching any language.
So yes...for language purposes..treat your Lady like you would a baby !!....for all other purposes...treat her like a Princess :icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:
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also the slang we use in the USA doent work either as they
do not understand that and you have to explain it for an hour
and i agree with the sarcasm that is a problem also
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Sarcasm is just something they don't get.Or pretend they don't understand.Just to remind us.We are not as funny as we think we are.
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Sarcasm...."The lowest form of humour...and the highest form of insult" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
D
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Sarcasm is just something they don't get.Or pretend they don't understand.Just to remind us.We are not as funny as we think we are.
What your wife is trying to say is....YOU are NOT funny! The rest of us probably are.
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Martin yes my wife thinks your really funny.Everytime I tell her you wine about her stealing your food from the farm.She just laughs and says dump Jinadian don't know how to play right.
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also the slang we use in the USA doent work either as they
do not understand that and you have to explain it for an hour
and i agree with the sarcasm that is a problem also
Ted, brb...ooops I was talking to my wife! :icon_cheesygrin:
I've been teaching my wife some of the slang we use in SoCal and she's learning quickly! Acronyms seem to work good...my wife will tell me brb when needed!
Like you guys say...PATIENCE is a must!!! Us being here, in China, we have learned what our wives have to deal with coming to our countrys...it's difficult to say the least! Fortunately my wife and I have much patience and love for each other... misunderstandings are at a minimum, unlike with my ex-wife...she speaks my native tongue great, we just could never understand each other....LOL
Plan on bringin your new wife back to your country??? Better understand what THEY will have to deal with...try puttin your feet in their shoes and stay here for awhile! Nothing like sitting at a table, for dinner, with several people that don't understand your language and you don't understand theirs! Even the women that have learned your language...they almost never speak it here and tend to forget it!!!
My wife has an English class three evenings a week. I go there with her and the Chinese teachers often ask me for help! One lady, in the class, has profile on chnlove and it says: she speaks English fair....hahahaha...ok whatever...........and the lady I see having the most difficult time speaking/learning English, her daughter lived in New Zealand for seven years and speaks English great! But like somebody posted here they need to be fully immersed in our language to become good with it!
Jim
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I do not know what it is like for them to learn English, but I can imagine because when I was learning mandarin I did not have anybody except my classmates and my teacher that could speak it. It was not until I spent my first 30 days in China that I learned that most of what I thought I knew was not at all accurate. Yes I knew the words and the structure but to dynamically communicate what I knew was almost impossible until I had been there two more times, then I finally was able to hold very simple dynamic conversations with people. I imagine it will be like that for most if not all of our yet to be found and already found wives. I was back in the states for almost 10 months before I went back to meet my soon to be wife and I found that I had already started to forget how to think in Mandarin. Which is what I consider to be the hardest part of communicating in a foreign language. You actually have to start thinking in that language to be able to form the thoughts you want to convey. Very difficult.
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Martin...I think this is a great thread..
I found from this very forum, that the best way for the ladies to understand you is to 'SPEAK' with them like you would a child...(not being nasty here)
Use words and phrases etc that you think they are able to understand.
Rob
You are not being nasty at all...in fact you are absolutely correct in what you say.
Do we all remember the last time we needed to teach someone English who did not know a single word...???.......yes we do, it was our kids when they were babies. And this is EXACTLY how we should teach our Chinese Women to speak English. After all, when our kids first went to school to enter a formal learning programme, they already spoke good English (or whatever your native language is) and WE were their only teachers up to that point.
So baby talk is the accepted and bulletproof way to begin teaching any language.
So yes...for language purposes..treat your Lady like you would a baby !!....for all other purposes...treat her like a Princess :icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:
David is on the right track. I am taking lessons from a Junior at UNCG. She is from Beijing and the lessons I am starting with are for kindergarten level in China. I have several youtube songs that are designed to help learn the initial and ending sounds as well as the four tones. I have found learning the four tones this the most difficult. So twice a week I pay for the privilage of sounding completly stupid. During the week, Xiuru goes to class every morning for an hour at the local kindergarten school in Anshan. She is learning at the same level. The best thing we have done is get a list of words on a subject. This week it is food. I have the english along side the Pinyin. Every night for two hours we just go over the lessons. It is important to consider what she will feel when she arrives here. Much like when I was in a room with all her family and did not understand a single word. At our age, learning is slow. The trick is not to focus on the end, but keep our eye on the present. The journey of learning together is wonderful. There are times that there is so much I want to say, but with web cam, phone, e-mail, we get the message across. We live in wonderful times. I remember when I was stationed in Japan, it would take weeks to get mail home. Now we have instant communication. I can not wait for the time we spend together, for that period of time we are walking on the same path. I would recomend just one thing. That is KISS. when it comes to converstaion, it is best to Keep It Simple, Stupid.
buzz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9Ayvjy-Dgs&feature=related
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Martin,
Funny this came up at this particular time. All this is so true. Beng in Beijing at this particular time, my lady has found it very frustrating. She is thinking it is too hard to communicate. So they feel the same way. I'll post more on my thread soon
Don
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Don,
Just tell her that there any many ways to communicate in the early days. Tell her not to be disheartened.
My wife and I are learning from each other as we go along. We have time - what is the rush - we are not going to be fluent in each others language for a lot time yet!!!!! But rarely do we have any real communication problems.
Willy
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Willy you have it easy lol all the mandarin you need to learn
is how to say "yes dear" to Angel lol
sorry i couldnt resist i will go to the corner now and shut up
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Just got back from my Mandarin lessons. This week 2 teachers, 1 student (me). With 2 Chinese ladies teaching you Chinese, believe me you will learn real quick :icon_cheesygrin:.
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I learned a new word last night...qinwen.......:icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:
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Part of the reason Sunny and I have such a great relationship is that we can talk so easily. In reflection on of the major reasons why my previous relationships didn't work out well with Chinese ladies was that communication was hard and starting out that really can lead to misunderstandings and frustrations.
I've nothing but respect for guys that can make it work with ladies with basic English, I couldn't make it work. if I was to start over I'd definitely narrow down my search to ladies that could speak some English, there is such a big range of ladies to choose from on chnlove, why not make things easier for yourself from the beginning!?
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Thats a good point Irishman and when you are searching try and see
if one peaks your interest but i wouldnt totally eleminate the others
either. I do know quite a few guys who are with ladies who's english
wasnt up to par and quite frankly they have great relationships and it
is what steared me in this direction a number of years ago. of course
now that has changed for them but it was a slower process as they
learned english and my friends do kno a little mandarin but really didnt
put forth a good effort as their wives arrived in the USA pretty fast
which was prior 9/11 when it was a lot faster and easier