China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => Ask An Experienced Member => Topic started by: Hans on April 05, 2010, 04:04:20 am
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I wasn’t expecting a sex liberal, dancing on the tables and showing her breasts. But I did not expect celibacy either. Yes, I have some sex issues with my lady.
First of all my lady is very inexperienced. That is not necessarily a problem, it takes time to know another person physically and even though her inexperience was very evident and a bit annoying at times when we first met, it only tought me to be patient and take things slowly. And during the limited time we had, I thought things improved.
My lady is traditional but she’s very calm and easy to discuss things with so I thought I’d challenge fate and bring up the sex issue once more, now I thought we could discuss more freely since there was no interpreter like it was the first time almost a year ago. In an email containing all kinds of topics I added that I hoped she did not feel embarrassed to talk about our sexlife. She replied that sex is very healthy and natural but that we can discuss more after we’ve married.
That didn’t sound good. I thought that maybe it was intercourse before marriage in particular that was her moral hang up so I wrote back and told her, among other things, that there are other ways of having sex than just intercourse, discussing on a more general level the importance of compromises in a relationship...
I thought I had crossed the line, being up front like that. But we had a QQ chat and she reassured me it was OK. I was relieved and didn’t think too much about what she actually wrote in her email afterwards. Reading what she actually wrote once again I can see that she really didn’t write anything of value. All she said was that we’re from different cultures and that’s OK, we can discuss details in the future. So either she, in a Chinese manner, deliberately avoids confrontation by not saying yes or no hoping I won't ask her again OR she just feel too embarrassed to say anything of value on the matter and just needs time.
I guess most of you are thinking "well, you should have thought about this earlier!" but I have and we did discuss it early on after we made contact on Chnlove almost a year ago. We both agreed that coming from two different cultures we must be open to and discuss things to avoid misunderstandings and to reach compromises together. I thought I received signals that verified her eagerness to do so when we met in China before. Still, right now I feel puzzled.
In your own experience with Chinese women, is this all an act to show they’re self respecting women who believes in high morale or is sex before marriage such an inconceivable thing for a traditional lady? In a relationship the two must feel both physically and emotionally desired. I’m not sure about the physical part here. Hugs and kisses are not enough for me.
I think I may have a bright future with this woman. But there is not only future, there is also here and now. We can not marry until the summer of 2011. If she does not yield an inch it would mean no sex for me for another year and that we have no idea if we’re sexually compatible before our wedding day. I can say for sure that celibacy was NOT one of my primary goals going into a new relationship. Thus, if things doesn't change for the better I may have two options:
1) Go on with the relationship and have sex behind her back until we finally marry.
2) End the relationship due to severe disagreements on the intimacy department.
No 1 is not me. I would feel terrible to lie to her now after we’ve met in real life and been together for some time in China. I do care a lot for her but I need more than hugs and kisses. I am bound to see her again in June so nothing drastic will happen until then at least. As usual I'm writing things from what I'm feeling here and now. But since this is the board of wisdom, I would really appreciate to hear your opinions on how to approach this, guys. :-)
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i personally would go there in June as you have planned and when you two are
together then pursue discussing your thoughts and concerns together face to face.
i would not give up until you have met again and can discuss this together in person.
as far as your other question it seems that each chinese lady is different. over the years
i have met a large variety of ladies with different thoughts and concerns on this with regard
to their traditional values. just see how it goes in June and proceed from there
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Hans, That is quite a predicament that you are going through. Is there any special reason why you cannot marry for more than another year?
Are you saying she is very inexperienced or she has had no experience of sexual intercourse at all?
If it is the latter then I can understand her position. She does not have to have specific religious convictions to stay a virgin until she marries. What if you had sex and then you decide that you are not sexually compatible. You leave her? What does sexual compatibilty mean. Is it that you get everything in ways that you have in the past?
When you marry you learn together. If there are things she does not like to do then it is her choice. I really admire her if she does resist all efforts to have a full sexual relationship before marriage.
Just say if you do decide that sexually you are 'not compatible' . You part from her. Then her fear is that she goes off to marry another man and he finds that she has had previous experience. She can soon find she is dumped again.
I think you have four options rather than 2.
1) Go on with the ralationship and have sex behind her back and risk her wrath if and when she discovers this.
2) End the relationship now because you are unlikely to get your end away with her before marriage.
3) Find a way to marry her before a year or more goes by.
4) Respect her wishes and appreciate the fact that she will come to you unimpeached and she will not have had any previous suitor to compare you with. That is a prize higher than all others.
My own experience with Chinese Woman is that they really like the physical side of a relationship. They have no qualms about telling you what the like and do not like.
Willy
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I wasn’t expecting a sex liberal, dancing on the tables and showing her breasts. But I did not expect celibacy either. Yes, I have some sex issues with my lady.
, I would really appreciate to hear your opinions on how to approach this, guys. :-)
Hans
In my opinion - and remember this is my opinion - I am not Dr What's her name - who claims to be an expert on all matters about sex - your lady said exactly what she should say - "we can discuss more after we’ve married."
What else do you want her to say?
It has been said that we in the West are often times more direct. For example, in the beginning of a relationship, you might directly ask your lady "Do you love me?' And you are expecting a direct answer.
But her answer will be something like, "You must first ask the moon, the moon will tell you." In other words, you are not going to get a direct reply - because that is the culture - this is the way.
The answer your lady has given - is exactly the one you should get!
Now once you get over the initial stages of things, and the person understands - your intentions are honorable - they match hers - that is marriage, then and only then will you get direct answers about topics that are deemed to be sensitive. Even then, it is on you to be sophisticated enough to broach the subject. Otherwise, you will find yourself, often - and I do mean often - talking to the moon!
Going through a translator in my opinion is definitely not good. Emails - in my opinion - or only okay to clarify something discussed - face to face on QQ and or Skype. They are not good to start off the subject or to get any sort of details about this subject.
If you have something to discuss about this subject, to me I am doing this face to face, and I am only talking about this once I know the person understands my intentions and my intentions truly match hers.
If you have met this person faced to face - maybe this is when it is best to talk about the subject. Not afterwards when you are both thousand miles away.
Maybe the best input I can pass on is - first fully discuss and make sure you are on the same accord about "Marriage." About engagement, about family, about life after marriage - these are all topics that should be discussed throughly and in-dept - first. If you have not done this, then perhaps you need to "Ask the moon" about when your stint with celibacy will be over!" Because - if this is the case, only the moon will know. :icon_biggrin:
Alton
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Thanks for your input, guys. I can add the following:
We have discussed engagement, marriage, children, well every aspect of life together in the future. For months and months. It's not like I'm hitting her with the sex part first thing. We have discussed sex two times, at the beginning (when I wanted to check her attitude before moving on together with her) and now. We did not discuss sex when we met, we had little time together and I think we both felt we wanted to get to know each other step by step at that point. And we only shared a bed one night, which was the night before my departure early in the morning.
Yes, we can't marry until next year and I think we both want to marry in the summer. I need to save money (I'm still a student, I graduate in January next year) for the wedding and we're not even engaged yet. The plan is that I go see her in June and she'll visit me for Christmas. We've talked from time to time about our future wedding and the engagement preceding it but either she doesn't want to discuss dates right now or she's waiting for me to decide everything for her. I don't know.
Willy, what I mean with "sexually compatible" is: do we like it together? Can we fulfill each other's needs? I have needs and she has needs (I hope). I've had women who are only interested in themselves when having sex, unwilling to do anything for their partner. I would not want to be married to such a woman. I want mutual understanding in bed as well. Therefore I would like to find this out before getting married. And yes, I believe she's a virgin. Which is why I can understand it is a big thing for her, but still we need to reach some kind of compromise.
I'll see her in June, that was a trip I was going to make whether I'd met my lady or not so everything's settled. I'd just adjust it in order to be more with her.
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Hans
You've got the best of all Worlds.........
If your Lady has zero experience, then you will never get to know about sexual compatibility beforehand...she has no reference or framework against which to compare, debate or discuss.
YOU will be her only teacher, her only lover...WOW...an open book for you to write the subsequent pages !!...lucky you.
How can you expect her to have a meanigful discussion about actual sexuality..she will only have a view from her external references...friends, family, internet, Ladies Magazines etc, etc, etc.
It is the same issue that most newly-weds faced before our new age of sexual freedom and "enlightenment"....and they got through it Ok.
And what exactly is sexual compatibiity ??...presumably you both have the right equipment, you both are in love...therefore you both have a wonderful adventure to share together.
I can tell you from my very advanced age that what ever is the result of your sex life with her...it is mostly down to how you handle it, how gentle, compassionate and understanding you are to her needs and how much skill you have in this department !!!
If you keep this in mind...she will respond to you in ways that will astound you..based on trust, love and the giving and receiving pleasure...together.
If you want a free trial or a guarantee beforehand...she may not wish to go there, because so far, she has apparently resisted the temptation for casual sex...I am sure many opportunities have come her way so far. That she has not done so is good for her...its her choice as a woman.
I cant think of a worse solution than to keep having casual sex without her knowlege...you WILL get caught out !!!
And to ditch her because you have no guarantee that she is a kitten in the kitchen and a tiger in the bedroom, seems to me to be a waste of a good woman...and a particularly shallow act on your part.
David
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Hans,
I don't like what I've read, I'm sorry to say. You're 28 or so says your profile, so I presume she is in her early 20s? Chances are she has no experience and doesn't want any before marriage if she is a bit traditional which is not uncommon in China, even nowadays. If you don't know, ask her if she has any experience in that department, I think she will tell you.
You say you haven't discussed dates of anything yet, there are some posts on the forum about male leadership in these mixed relationships, maybe that is the problem. I think you should take the lead and firm things up. That she is willing to wait another year to get married is quite exceptional, especially when all the detail is still in the air...
Search your feelings and see what is most important for you, if the small probability of an unsatisfactory physical relationship is a showstopper for you, then I don't think you two are a good match, actually I don't think that you're a good catch for her, especially if you can't handle the prospect of one year without getting some.
Frank
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First of all I'd like to thank you for your input, I appreciate all your advice!
Second, I find it a bit interesting that some of you seem to describe this as a matter of my understanding of her needs and not her understanding of mine, of me being a bad catch for her and not the other way around. In my world, it is about mutual understanding. In a healthy relationship it goes both ways. And I've never asked for a "kitten in the kitchen and a tiger in the bedroom". But what I do want is to feel physically desired as a man. Is that so selfish? We wouldn't regard it as selfish if a woman said she wanted to feel physically desired as a woman, would we? Then it would be all about her needs and as men we should show our understanding and try to fulfill those needs, whatever they may be.
Of course I could have casual sex without her finding out just as she could have sex without me finding out. We're living in different countries, in different parts of the world. There's no way of walking in on anybody here. But I'm not going to. I'm not a cheater. I end one relationship before I start the next one and I always will.
About the marriage and engagement plans, we've talked about it. Or I've talked about it, rather. I've made suggestions on where and when we could get engaged but she's not given me any clear answer on what she really wants. Which I find a bit frustrating. We've talked a lot about that we both want to make decisions together, which is why I have not felt comfortable with just deciding things over her head only to make things happen. An engagement is not like deciding the time for dinner.
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Hans,
Being a young woman in China, and you being a westerner, i think it is more likely she is just protecting herself from being used. She has probably heard of all the horror stories from those that know nothing about westerners but are very good at assumptions, of western men using Chinese ladies for sex!!
I have a strong suspicion that once you have finalised your engagement, things will be very different. At the moment, she is not seeing a solid commitment from you, your talking about it, but nothing is arranged!!! I know what your saying about ''Mutual'' in your posts, but things are just a little different in Asia and especially in China. You will get all the mutual stuff Once ''You'' decide when you both will be engaged, ...maybe more than you bargained for ...lol!!!
Hans the Chinese ladies are the same as any other ladies in this world, they have the same wants, needs, and desires. Yes, ...some maybe a little more traditional than others, but nothing is ever set in stone. Sex is no longer a taboo subject in China, that has long since past.
Your Young lady joined a marriage agency to get married, and that is the main object in her mind right now. What she is seeing, is that you have told her, No Marriage for at least another year, and from what you say ...she has excepted this. Now you want to talk about Sex, and experiencing sex while still being completly Single. (...I hope you can see where i'm going with this Hans) All she needs is a solid commitment from you, in the form of a confirmed engagement date. Most if not all her fears will then fade away. It's obvious she wants you, to have already accepted that long wait for you being able to marry her, .... but she just needs that commitment from you, to let herself be open and show her commitment towards YOU!! ....
David......
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Thank you for your wise thoughts, David. I agree with you on the engagement part, you may be completely right here. I've decided not to talk about sex before we're engaged. I'll bring up the engagement subject again soon. It's just that I have not felt that she wnats me to make the decisions for her, therefore I'm afraid she'll feel bad if I suddenly tell her "Hey, I've set the date for our engagement!" I did ask her when we met in China and she gave me the impression that she wanted to wait and not say when or where we should get engaged.
About her possible prejudice on Western men and sex I would hope that our night together in the same bed (with our clothes ON) would have persuaded her that I'm not interested in her just for sex. There are after all easier ways if we want to have sex with Asian women...
About sex and taboo, it depends what you mean with taboo. After all the government is strongly fighting anything they regard as immoral on the Internet, the "Love Land" erotic theme park was closed down before it could open for the public and the government is now trying to filter all text messages containing "immoral" words. I would not say that sex is not taboo...:-/
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Hans,
The taboo thing, ....That's the government for you, i was talking about the real world women of China!!
Perhaps that's why the government are taking such measures, because of the modern attitudes among it's population these days...
Hans, over the years i lived/worked in China, i have known countless western single guys (colleagues) of your age group that have had relationships with young Chinese ladies. None were celibate relationships. As the years went on, it became more and more common too, oh, and i'm not talking about the easy women of the street, just normal everyday ladies... Quite a few married these ladies too.... So as i said, it's not a taboo thing it's now quite normal, just that it's never in public and never flaunted about for others to see .... all ''behind closed doors'' hahaha!!!
As for the prejudice about western men, This is very common in China, family and friends will often try and dissuade these ladies from finding western husbands , and make-up all sorts stories to defend there case. I don't know about your personal experiences about you both sleeping with your clothes on, or what she may or may not of thought about it....
David.....
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Han's, first you are a lucky guy to get a virgin. There are so few around now days, specially here in the states. I know what she is
waiting for and that is comitment like engagement or marrage. First get engaged before you think of sex at all.
Meet the mom and pop and be sincere, propose to her and get everyones ok on the marrage, then and only then you can
discuss sex. Don't rush it or you'll scare her off. You are going to be her only man, and she will know only you. what a wonderful
thing to look forward to...
Your a lucky guy...:exclamation:
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As for the prejudice about western men, This is very common in China, family and friends will often try and dissuade these ladies from finding
David.....
David,This is the truth I experienced.
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David5o, I understand your point. But it doesn't help much since my lady is not among those young Chinese ladies you're mentioning... As for the prejudice about the Western men, I'm sure it exists. I actually wasn't expecting to be greeted with open arms like I was. All I saw was curiosity. But I suppose they have/had tons of ideas about me that they didn't tell me about. :dodgy:
rockycoon, I met her family on my first visit in December. They both arranged with a birthday dinner for me at a restaurant (my birthday was on the day after my arrival and that didn't go unnoticed...) and invited me for dinner in their apartment later on. Me and my lady talked about marriage privately but we both want her to visit Sweden before we move along with any wedding plans. We have not decided whether to live in China or Sweden in the future so the first important step is to get her a granted visa to Sweden. When I had returned home in January she sent me a letter saying that the family "loved" me and that her parents hoped we could get married during 2011.
Well, well. It's the cultural differences, the different perspectives that causes confusion and anxiety here. That's all.
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chen yan,
Know your own mind Chen Yan, and follow your own dreams. Don't ever let others try and live your life for you, .....they will surely make a mess of it for you ...lol!!!
Yes, i came across quite a bit of this, especially aimed at the younger ladies... Those that had never been married!!
Even some of Lucy's friends and cousins were quite hostile in their prejudice towards her finding a western man (Me). Though the majority were actually happy for her...
When we were discussing this between us, it turned out that the majority of those that were most vocal in there prejudice, were the very ones that weren't in happy relationships and marriages!!! So i think there is a lot of jealousy involved, as well as any genuine concerns for the ladies welfare or well being...
We had no problems from Lucy's parents or siblings by the way. Anyone that had seen us together would have seen that we fitted each other like a pair of well made gloves, and only a fool could not of seen how happy Lucy was, ...in us ....Being a Couple!!!''
Anyway, .... some of the things i've heard from those that have these prejudices against western/foreign husbands, are so far out of the window, you really have to laugh when you hear them. All are told as if fact, but are so obviously ''made-up'' assumptions and show little to no knowledge of any westerner!! ....Sad Really!!
David.....
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Hans,
My wife was 40 when we met. we did not have a physical relationship until we were engaged. She is also traditional which is one of the things I love about her. So Like Davd5o said, I think once you are committed to each other things will change. By the way, if she is traditional you are expected to make the choices and lead the way. My wife does everything about the home and me but I make the decisions on the major things, like where we live and so on.
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in other words communicate and work together equally to resolve
situations .
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I agree with Ted. Westerners are not so bad, in fact if you look at it, you will find that the ladies who are married to westerners are
very happy with no problems at all. The western idea is to share
everything with the wife, not just make heavy decisions, but to talk
them over with the wife and come to a logical conclusion.
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Yes...I basically agree with you Ted and Rocky...but I definitely think that Western Men who marry Chinese Women have got to get used to making decisions !!!
My experience so far is that Chinese Women will want thir husband to be the "Man" of the household...whilst they still like to know what is happening .
Obviously, I am not talking about a Dictatorship here...simply a Man is a Man is a Man...
David
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Hans,
I do not have a lot to say here because the others have written it. But I will say this. You need to get your head out of your ### and realize that when it comes to love and compatibility it will be what you make of it. You do not, I repeat do not make love to a woman a few minutes a day. It takes all day long to make love to her. You are getting what you like then you are not putting in what she needs. It is as simple as that. I held Peggy for three hours this afternoon as she slept on the bus ride to Shenzhen. I rubbed and massaged her back, shoulders, arms, face, head. I even scratched her head. I told her I loved her at least 10 times on the trip home. She has treated me like Prince charming ever since we got off the bus. I wonder why?
I have know a few women in my life and I can tell you that you get more than you give but you had better be giving.
Sexual compatibility. Get real.
Shaun
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Shaun, you don't have to tell me what love is. I've been in relationships before, I'm not 12. And where did you get the idea that I'm not willing to give in a relationship?
We all have our own experiences shaping us as humans. What has happened to people tend to have an impact on them later in similiar situations. That's why I brought up the "sexual compatibility" part, not to get a lecture about what love is. If you have other experiences, that's fine. That doesn't make them mine, though. My lady is incredibly sweet but when I have some concerns amidst all the positive things happening between us, I thought that this was the place to bring it up.
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I am not sure whether this will help or not but I ill try.If she has no experience there wouldnt be a lot to talk about from her end of it.However after she is married she ould discuss this with her husband.Can you remember your first time?It as a learning experience.I am sure she would be pretty nervous if she has never done such a thing.So getting her to be open with you about this will be a difficult thing.In her eyes once she is married she has something she can totally offer you which is of herself completely.It is hard for a person to discuss something they know little about .I ould suggest patience and compassion.Try to look at her side once she loses her virginity it is gone she wont be able to get that back .I hope this helps in some small way
Ron
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Wow Shaun if i told you i loved you then you would have brought more jerky
from the states??? lol !!!!
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lol!!!!! i guess??? i wonder if Willy will bring some when he visits this weekend:icon_cheesygrin:
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" Sexual Compatibility " ??? Now let me see Hans . Why is it .. that I been writing to my Wife for seven month's before ever meeting her Face to Face and " I " never ones thought of this . Oh yes , I had my fantasies .. what if and how good will it be . But never did I made this a major problem or let it be one for that matter . We decided to get married just through our writing ( some may call me or my Wife stupid ) but it was going to happen if there was Compatibility at first or not . One can work on that I think and not be afraid one will know more or less then the other about sex . Of course this is a private issue between two people and as much ( like you say ) you like your Lady .. why even ask such question . I didn't say LOVE your Lady , because you don't really .. otherwise this would NOT be a problem for you . Maybe you do need to learn more about real LOVE and I for sure know what I'm talking about .
Remember , ones you find the one your Compatible with ... what happens if your Lady / Wife has an Accident and the Compatibility is out the window ? Will it be Goodbye .. see you , like I know some People like this . Hans , I like you .. but don't be like that or those Folks where Sex is more then .. 30 % of the Relationship . It would never last , trust me .
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I don't really sex is the 1st thing man would have to think about, when he is writting to any woman at first... or should he write only with his ##### and not his own head!
if so, I gonna think there are some "clubs" only for that... or just some places where man can give some $$$ if he wants.. but well... maybe should it be another subject and that it should not be talked over here?
Maybe chinese women are "hot" in love, maybe some are less, I don't know. and anyway, I won't tell anything about Liyan and me in that thread, because I'd then believe Willy would need more viagra... :D (or not...) (*kidding*)
I don't either know if there should be any way to compare sex issues in western countries and in china...
love is love, sex is only a part of it, even if for most of us, sex is LINKED to love... no love, no sex...
but maybe (and I guess) that there are some men who are always living as in ice age, living only for sex....
then, maybe should they be renamed "bonobo men"? :D
**hem**
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You do not, I repeat do not make love to a woman a few minutes a day. It takes all day long to make love to her. You are getting what you like then.
Shaun, "All Day?" say your not getting into Willy's viagra....LOL
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Many of you seem convinced that sex is not an important part of a relationship. I beg to differ. My experience, and many of my friends' too, is that the initial part of a relationship contains a lot of sex. That is sort of the passion part, when everything with your partner is new and exciting. That's when you can have sex three times a day just because you can't keep your hands off each other.
I know love is a larger topic than just sex, however in a relationship sex is an important part among others. Why deny that? I have and some of my friends have broken up with girlfriends because of troubles on the sexual department (often it is also something else acting as trigger). In the essay I am writing at the moment about prostitution, sex workers tell me that many of their customers are married men. I wonder why they are paying for sex if they could get good sex with their wives...? Sexual compatibility, common desires, mutual understanding of the physical needs... Call it what you like.
About marriage, I would never even contemplate getting married with someone I haven't even met in real life. It's easy to get carried away if you meet an amazing woman but I think living together for some time and experiencing each other in good times and bad times before proposing is not a bad idea. There's a reason why most people do this. The average couple in Sweden live together for seven years before getting married. We're the outcasts here and I can't blame other people for thinking we're a bit weird! :icon_cheesygrin:
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I'm just explaining what it usually looks like in Sweden. Since I'm on this road now, in a relationship with a Chinese lady with a different view on these matters, naturally I can't expect things to be exactly like among Swedish couples. Yes, I have explained that sex is a crucial part of the relationship among Swedes, she's aware of the different perspectives. If you read my first post in this thread, although it was written when I was a bit emotional, you'll see that my aim is to reach some kind of compromise between our two different cultures. That goes for everyting in the relationship, not just sex.
If we marry, it will most likely be next year. But right now I am more concerned about the visa process than anything else.
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I see here many on the assumption bandwagon that this woman is a virgin...did I miss something? The younger people, in China, have a modern view of this subject and may experiment with it more than their predecessor's...I can be wrong but expressing my opinion like everybody else. I see more than just holding hand's, in public, here in China...especially with the younger people!
Arnold had made a good comment about, if there was an accident or something happened and a lady or you couldn't have sex anymore...would we or they stay with us or them????
Hans...this is a very important subject matter with relationships and I have brought it up here on occasions too! Living here I see a different picture than what we fantasize things to be back at home! This is a "REAL" subject matter with real importance...unless this cycle of one's body has died off!
I feel many are under the illusion of what I will call "China Doll Syndrome"! Everybody has/had sexual needs and this is important as love is in any relationship! Also, the profession you are writing about is a very active profession here in China and I'm sure it has been for as long as time can tell! Many marriages are broken up here because of infidelity...just my thoughts...................
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I'm with Han's on this one, Sex in a marriage or in a live-in relationship IS important!!
Virtually every culture, including the Chinese culture is of the opinion that ...''if it doesn't work in bed it doesn't work out of bed'' or very very rarely!!! This is especially true at the beginning of a marriage....
I'm not saying that it's the only important aspect of a strong, and good, marriage, ...because it's NOT!!
David......
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Many of you seem convinced that sex is not an important part of a relationship. I beg to differ. My experience, and many of my friends' too, is that the initial part of a relationship contains a lot of sex. That is sort of the passion part, when everything with your partner is new and exciting. That's when you can have sex three times a day just because you can't keep your hands off each other.
Hans , of course this is very True as much as True can get . But , it is something you can NOT force to happen at will . This can happen of course early on in a Relationship or much later ( like being married first ) . That will depend on the Person / Persons and their value's about the subject . If you love a Woman , like you say your crazy about your Lady .. why NOT give her that space . You are the one that will benefit from it later or better both of you will .
After all , it's your shot and I hope you make the right one for both of you .
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Hans
I just read through this thread. One thing i noticed in your first post is that you said you care allot for her. You didnt say you loved her. I think that you need to be very sure that you love this lady in a way that will sustain a marriage. Sex is very important in a marriage but it is not everything. Arnold touched on this i believe. You asked why these guys are paying for sex if they get good sex with their wives, maybe it is because they entered in a marriage thinking more about sex than true love.
I think that most of the comments are coming from guys much older than you including myself so we might think about things a little different. I have four kids and you are the age of my oldest. I have had a failed marriage of 20 years but it was not from cheating. You talked of having sex behind her back. I respectfully tell you what i tell my kids that no good ever came from cheating on your wife, husband or partner. I think if you truly love her you will not do this.
Now as far as my limited experinece i exchanged EMF letters with Linda for 6 months before we met in late August. We talked of what life would be like together and love but untill we met face to face did not talk engagment. At first we were both nerviuos but after the first day together i think we both knew we were truly in love. After a few days i asked her to be my wife, after that she took me to meet her parents. There was no sex untill after we were engaged. You have allready been to China and met her face to face are you sure that she is the one for you? I hope that it works out for you.
Kenny
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Thanks for more of your insights, guys. I wrote the first post when I was annoyed and a bit emotional, that's when I need your advice the most! Haha. Honestly, I appreciate all the opinions here.
Kenny, I wrote that I care a lot for her because the word love is used so carelessly these days. Somehow it just felt better to write that I care for her. I also think love is something that can grow by time, by showing affection over time, in different situations (just a hug at the right moment, a phone call, something sent in the mail). I didn't fall in love with my lady at first sight, I've come to admire her personality during our correspondence. She's just a great, great person (and of course I find her physically attractive too). We spent seven months of writing EMFs and emails (and during the last few weeks or so also phone calls and QQ), I went to see her with little expectation after some confusion a few weeks before I left. But our time together was great. Except from some misunderstandings caused by cultural differences, I think everything felt very good and she said the same. She is the most caring and sweet woman I have ever met, completely different from the girls I've met in Sweden. We'll talk about the sex part when we meet in June and I hope we'll come to some kind of understanding. I think maybe I may just have to get used to the idea of being engaged first. So yes, maybe I should have written that I love her. Because I feel a security and honesty with her that I have not felt with any other woman.
Sure I've had doubts from time to time, which I think is completely normal. After all, although I have been in relationships before I have never even been close to marriage and this time around it may happen very soon (from my perspective). It's a big thing, I don't plan to marry more than once in life (before you say anything, half of the marriages in Sweden ends with divorce so yes, there are certainly people taking it lightly).
And then, when I'm here writing about my doubts, I get a big package in the mail. My lady has made two cute pillow covers and sent to both me and my mother (my mom turns 60 in April). And my heart just melts again. :heart: It's just like she can sense that my concerns need to be silenced for a while...
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And then, when I'm here writing about my doubts, I get a big package in the mail. My lady has made two cute pillow covers and sent to both me and my mother (my mom turns 60 in April). And my heart just melts again. :heart: It's just like she can sense that my concerns need to be silenced for a while...
Great to hear and yes your concerns are legit! These women here can sense things that women from our parts of the world have no idea about...hahahahaha...maybe this is the TRUE "Traditional Chinese Woman/Lady"!!!:icon_biggrin:
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Shaun, you don't have to tell me what love is. I've been in relationships before, I'm not 12. And where did you get the idea that I'm not willing to give in a relationship?
We all have our own experiences shaping us as humans. What has happened to people tend to have an impact on them later in similiar situations. That's why I brought up the "sexual compatibility" part, not to get a lecture about what love is. If you have other experiences, that's fine. That doesn't make them mine, though. My lady is incredibly sweet but when I have some concerns amidst all the positive things happening between us, I thought that this was the place to bring it up.
Hans,
I read through your comment and you proved my point. I was talking about the bogus term "sexual compatibility." You cannot tell in one or two sexual encounters with a woman. When men talk about sexual compatibility they are looking to get laid and if do not like what they get it is their golden parachute out with a clear conscience. Sexual compatibility is learned over time.
You cannot talk about sexual compatibility without talking about love. They go hand in hand and it is an excellent place to bring it up. Only try learning rather than reacting. You may not be 12 but your immaturity is showing. I however have been around a block or two.
nuf said.
hans you said, sex workers tell me that many of their customers are married men. I wonder why they are paying for sex if they could get good sex with their wives...? Sexual compatibility, common desires, mutual understanding of the physical needs... Call it what you like."
Let's call it what it really is. The lack of ethical commitment to a relationship. Most men like this have no loyalty to anyone but themselves.
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Shaun,
Let's call it what it really is. The lack of ethical commitment to a relationship. Most men like this have no loyalty to anyone but themselves.
Now that's a sweeping statement to make!!! Where did you get that data from??
David.....
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You may not be 12 but your immaturity is showing. I however have been around a block or two.
I understand you want to play the role of the wise old man here. I will just let you do that if it makes you feel good about yourself.
Just to finish: sex does not necessarily have anything to do with love. But yes, in a relationship, when speaking of sexual compatibility as a mutual understanding of ones sexual desires, love can be very important (but it is actually possible to have great sex with someone you don't love at all...). Not every couple manage, though. I have friends who've split up because of this, as have I, and I have friends - both male and female - who've been cheating on their partners because of this.
Most men like this have no loyalty to anyone but themselves.
I've talked to customers in Thailand too (but that's another story) and I would like to say that there's a much broader picture to it than just utter selfishness. I believe there are many, many men out there who are genuinelly inhappy about the sexual life in their relationship. Sex workers get to hear a lot about this too since their job is not only the physical part but also a semi-therapeutic one afterwards. And as it happens, the female part of the customer group is growing too (as is the group of male sex workers).
And suddenly we ended up in a discussion about prostitution...!:-/
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Gina and i fit in every way so it is not an issue with us, but, i can see where a man has certain urges and his wife will not satisfy him for whatever reason. Which is the better, forcing his wife to do it thereby creating more problems in the marriage or secretly going to a hooker or having an affair with someone. As long as he is protecting himself against diseases, why not go to the hooker. That would not threaten the marriage, there is no emotional attachment like an affair would be. I just dont see the harm in it. Out in Nevada it is legal. I just see it as the least threat to a marriage.
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Shaun,
Let's call it what it really is. The lack of ethical commitment to a relationship. Most men like this have no loyalty to anyone but themselves.
Now that's a sweeping statement to make!!! Where did you get that data from??
David.....
David,
It is an observation I have made over the years of counseling married couples where one parter has sought sexual relations outside of marriage. One of the most heinous comments I heard from a man said to me "I think it makes me a better husband because I know what I can loose."
I ask myself this question all the time. Why is it that many people can discipline ourselves in almost every aspect of life except sex? Only answer I have come up with is selfishness.
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There are many many reasons, far too many to list here, why guys use the services of hookers/prostitutes. Very few of them, for the reason Shaun stated. Let's face it, no-one in there right mind would marry a woman then start using prostitutes as a means of sexual gratification. They would, ....or dammed well should have found out, that the woman they were marrying had similar likes and dislikes to themselves, long before getting into a marriage situation.
Having said that, things do change over the years, maybe a wife because of medical or psychological reasons becomes frigid and just not interested in any form of sex!! As Jim said, it doesn't mean the guy stops loving his wife, but still has needs....
Personally, i would ''Never'' marry any woman that i didn't know intimately!! That was true in my younger life and it's still true today, and i've been round a good few blocks. This is the 21st century, we are in an age where we have more control over our personal lives than we have ever had in the past. So why would anyone want to go back in time, and ''hope for the best'' ?? If things do go bad, ...What do you do then, stay and stick it out, like they were expected to do in our parents and grandparents day??
So i for one can understand what Hans has been trying to say in this thread. Yes, he's young, but not too young not to know what he's looking for, or knowing what's important to ''Him'' in ''His'' relationship....
David....
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A word about hookers, you can wear anything you want, but the exchange of ANY bodely fluid and I mean ANY will and can give
you that gift that keeps on giving. In fact there are several gifts floating around out there. Be very, very careful guys...this is just
an important health tip to all the singles out there.
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A word about hookers, you can wear anything you want, but the exchange of ANY bodely fluid and I mean ANY will and can give
you that gift that keeps on giving. In fact there are several gifts floating around out there. Be very, very careful guys...this is just
an important health tip to all the singles out there.
My parents always told me that I would find out that it was far greater to give than receive. Were they looking into the future!!!!
Willy
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Personally, i would ''Never'' marry any woman that i didn't know intimately!! That was true in my younger life and it's still true today, and i've been round a good few blocks. This is the 21st century, we are in an age where we have more control over our personal lives than we have ever had in the past. So why would anyone want to go back in time, and ''hope for the best'' ?? If things do go bad, ...What do you do then, stay and stick it out, like they were expected to do in our parents and grandparents day??
David5o, a very wise post! You've understood what I wanted to say here. I agree with the quoted part above 100 per cent! Personally I feel that many men here seem to be ready to go all in straight away, almost like teenagers who can't see beyond the next day.
Just to add: not all married men who visit escorts do it without their wife's consent. I met a man in Thailand who went there at least once a year, just for a few days at a time, and had his fun. Meanwhile, his wife had her time of joy too. This was a silent agreement between the two. So yes, there are many different reasons as to why men visits escorts (we should also note the fact that there is a growing amount of career women who visit male escorts. They don't feel they have the time or commitment for a relationship or for regular dating.) So nothing's black and white in the sex business, believe me (certainly not in Thailand where everthing concerning sex has a shade of gray!).
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my question to this is WHERE is the commitment??? isnt marriage
a comitment to each other??? maybe i am old fashioned were that
is concerned but i wouldnt want to do that to my wife and i surely
wouldnt want her to sew her oats either at a point and time in the
year
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I agree with Ted on this one. That being said, I have not always waited for marriage. And by not always, I mean never. That being said, how they were in the bedroom...my current wife, or my ex wife...was not a deciding factor in whether or not I would marry them.
From my own personal experience, sex is a lot of fun. However, making love to the person you are completely in love with, who you share a deep emotional bond with, this kind of lovemaking is more amazing than anything else. Words can't describe it, but I have always felt that there is a big difference between sex, and making love to the woman you are married to.
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good point Martin its either SEX or MAKING LOVE IF YOUR WORRIED about sex with
your wife then are you really in love with her??????
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Martin/Ted,
I think that's the point that Hans was making, That prostitution isn't always black and white!! There are just so many reasons why Prostitution is the oldest known profession... but one things for certain, you can't have a profession without clients!!!
There are also many different kinds of marriages too. Sure, most wouldn't be to our own personal liking or cup of tea, ...but they are still very much all around us. It's a personal choice at the end of the day!! Most if not all the marriages myself and the Bros on the Forum are looking for, is for the want of a better word, a ''conventional marriage''. What both of you are talking about in your posts, is just that ''conventional''!!
I don't think that how well a lady performs in bed is going to be a deciding factor, in whether you would marry or not in the vast majority of cases, But don't run away with the idea that this is a ''man'' thing. The ladies can also have concerns and need to know things too!!!!
I agree with you 100% Martin, there is an enormous difference between ''sex and ''Making Love'', chalk and cheese in fact!!
For myself, i need to know that the woman i am going to marry is the RIGHT one, and would want her to know that i'm the right man for her (and that includes intimacy) . In my case, we have lived together a considerable time, enough to know just that.... There is no way i would jump head first into marriage, ....it's just too dammed important to screw up!!!
One last thing, i too am among the older members here, ...not as old as some, and unfortunately nowhere near the youngest...lol!!! But i wouldn't say that i'm old fashioned in my thoughts in the majority of issues being discussed on the Forum. I also have no religious beliefs to steer me in any particular direction, just my own uncluttered (i hope) mind.... lol!!!
David...