China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => Newbies Corner => Topic started by: Lain on April 16, 2010, 07:35:45 pm
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Sorry for the long initial post.
Ok so I joined chnlove about a year ago, and have conversed with several ladies all of whom seemed very sincere and legitimate but it seemed that I was unable to find that special one. After about a 4 month break form the site I decided to dust off my profile, upload a new picture and give it a try again.
Shortly after that a lovely lady contacted me first and much to my surprise she is virtually everything I have been looking for...and more beautiful than I could have ever dreamed of. We have been conversing for about 4 months and shared many letters over this time. I found her profile page for the Chinese equivalence of FaceBook on 51.com where she had many pictures of herself and many things that she had on her profile were exactly as she portrayed her profile on chnlove so I felt that she is a honest and sincere person.
For the most part things have gone smoothly but last month she asked me to come see her and I agreed. I operate a web based company and I explained to her that I will need some time to arrange it so that I can operate my business while in China (not an easy task for security reasons) So over the course of the past few weeks I have been getting everything together, vaccinations, passport, visa.....etc. Even trying to pick up some basic Chinese phrases........My first trip to China!!
Then last week she drops this bomb on me that she told her mother that I would be coming to see her and now the entire trip is in limbo as I await for her mothers permission to simply come and visit her daughter....Who will be 23 in May. I was planning to come see her shortly after her birthday. I really wanted to be there for her birthday, but thought that would be imposing and awkward for her.
I was a bit perplexed over needing her mothers permission to see her as I assumed that when she joined the chnlove site...that it was a given that her family would be aware. (guess not) It does appear that it will work out, but I may still need to meet her mother first. Needless to say this is something that I explained to her that unless I have permission BEFORE I come that I would not make the trip. I have offered to speak with her mother on the phone with a translator to address any questions she may have.....still up in the air. I knew there will be issues like this and I have lots of patience (required) to work through these hurdles.
So now here is where I am starting to have concerns.
1) I sent flowers to her for the New Year/ Valentines Day but she asked me to send them to the agency as she might not be in town to get them....understandable for holiday so I did just that. The agency refused the delivery and the order was canceled by them. Needless to say I was upset with chnlove as the explanation they gave as the reason to cancel (but not to refund) my order was "canceled for certain reasons".....ambiguous explanation is an understatement. I filed a complaint with PayPal for a refund and what do ya know, they were delivered that same week. She uploaded pics of them to her profile on the 51.com site so I know she actually got them.
2) So about week and a half ago I sent a little gift to her as a surprise to her address as it is listed on her chnlove profile. So here it is almost 2 weeks later and even though it shows as delivered only 5 days after I placed the order....she has not mentioned the gift even once in this time and she has sent me at least 4 letters since.
Am I being paranoid here in thinking that something is not right here?? She has always been quick to thank me for my kind words and respectful gestures that I have expressed to her family....but not a single word for the gift. Should this be a red flag?? Is it normal that she would not acknowledge a gift given?
Secondly I have tried on a few occasions to converse directly with the agency who she is dealing with about getting some assistance while I am there but they have no direct email address or phone numbers. I mean what the heck? Am I expected to PAY for a letter to the agency using the service just to get some answers and assistance?
I know the odds are not stacked in my favor with this lady....but I really want this too work out and I am doing my homework to account for virtually any pitfalls....and YES, I have spent several DAYS reading over 100 posts here..Great Stuff!
I am really, REALLY looking forward to this trip, but as the date comes closer there are some nagging problems that make me question a few things. Any words of advice, good-or-bad I am open to get some help.
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Lain,
First off, ...Welcome to the Forum...
Quite frankly, i've never heard of needing a mothers permission before you can meet a lady!!! You tell us her age, but give no indication of your own age here, ...maybe this is the problem, are you much older than this young lady?? can you also give an indication of what part of China your lady lives in...
David....
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I want to first ask you which agency you are dealing with? There is one thing I want to talk about, and will leave some of the bigger questions to the more experienced guys.
When a lady signs up with an agency, she is not necessarily looking for a western man. The agency is a marriage agency, and chnlove.com is only one avenue for the agency to get the woman name out there. It could be, when she first signed up to the agency, that she was expecting to be with a Chinese man. Therefore, mothers permission would be a lot easier to get. But now she is writing a western man, and mother might not be too keen on this all.
I just wanted to write that, so there was no confusion on this part. I think chnlove should do a better job of explaining this to its clients (us).
As for the other questions...the more important questions, I will leave this for the more experienced guys here.
Oh, and welcome to the site!
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Quite frankly, i've never heard of needing a mothers permission before you can meet a lady!!! You tell us her age, but give no indication of your own age here, ...maybe this is the problem, are you much older than this young lady?? can you also give an indication of what part of China your lady lives in...
Indeed, I am 39 years old and even I do have some concerns over the age difference. However I would point out that I am very active and I do not look a day over 30..in fact I got carded last week for a beer at Applebees! She states that her mother is very protective over her, and is mostly worried that I will take her daughter away and leave her mom to have nobody to take care of her. I have actually made it clear that I am more than open to living in China and in fact may end up there since my company is internet based (B2B Commerce) and my current US Dollar income would allow me to have a good life there.....ah actually make that VERY good! My servers are all located in the US, but I can manage them from anywhere I have internet access.
She is located in Xiolan Town (Zhongshan) but she tells me that this is not her hometown. I have asked where her family lives as she also has an older sister. She is sort of not wishing to talk about her family much, other than to inform me that her parents are divorced and that its "complicated"....Knowing what I do about China and the effects of having 2 daughters on the family system...I am willing to let this pass until we build a closer relationship. I would also like to reiterate that SHE contacted me from my profile, so there should be no issues with her either not knowing where I am from or how old I am. I am very familiar with family requirements for marriage, and like you I've never heard of needing a mothers permission before you can meet a lady!!!
I want to first ask you which agency you are dealing with?
To be very honest the quality of the translations are very inconsistent. I actually just filed a request that they provide me full contact information such as postal address, phone numbers and a direct email address for this agency. I also requested (suggested) that they provide this information on the agency profile page.
As I mentioned above, she contacted me and read my profile...My picture clearly shows me as a "plain white guy" so there should be no reason for any confusion on the issue of not knowing my origination. To be clear she still wants me to come, but needs to make sure that this will not create a "rift" between her and her mother. Of course I can very much understand, but as I pointed out to her....At what point were you going to tell me before I actually purchased the plane tickets? Thankfully I have not yet bit was going too only a few days before she dropped this bomb on me. I have told her that I have no problem with our first meeting being a family one with a translator present for as long as her mother needs to address her concerns. However my lady has not given me any feedback on this idea. It may be that her mother lives too far away? Not sure, she is just telling me that she will work it out and just needs some time to convince her mom that this whole online dating thing is legitimate. This may be a crossing of two problems. one of culture and another of generational / technological differences? Either way time is running out on my visa and she has not given me any idea of how long this will take.
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Lain,
as he two of you were writing was Marriage discussed when you visited?? If so maybe
she thinks that the two of you will get married when you get there for a visit. Hence the
approval of mom is what she is seeking before marriage.
also have the two of you just been writing and have not had any real contact as far as
web cam were you could talk between yourselves? maybe the translator has her thinking
you are coming to marry her this trip. not sure but just some ideas for you to ponder.
i hope it all works out for you and her so hang in there no matter what the outcome is
and welcome to the forum
Ted
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We have not yet met in person, that was the point of this trip. We both have expressed our doubts as the the nature of the chnlove services but have continued with it and we agreed that upon our first meeting it would NOT be about marriage. Our plan was to meet in person to get to know each other and simply spend some quality time with each other over a week or so with no expectations. The idea here was to reduce the distance barrier and allow each of us to see that we are "real" people and see if the words we have both expressed have the same value when in person.
She does not have a computer, so the only communication to date has been via the chnlove services. I want to give her a computer as I have several older ones that I am not using that would be more than she needs. I have even set one up for secure remote access along with a built in Reverse SSH-Tunnel to my server based private chat system. But until we meet in person I am apprehensive about spending the money to ship it off to her along with a web cam. Plus she has expressed some issue with the costs of internet access. I have told her that its not a problem, and that I would take care of it when we meet.
Just to be clear she has NEVER once asked me for anything....not a dime. I know where she works and given the nature of the job I do not think she is playing me? However that said there have been several contradictions in her letters over time....I just chalked this up to translation errors given that the service has been less than consistent. I am thinking that there may be more than 1 person who is doing the translations? Either way I asked chnlove for direct contact info for that agency and I plan to make several inquiries regarding some of these issues along with inquiries for translator services and other services for this trip.
Regardless of this issue and meeting my lady there, I am still planning a trip to Guangdong to see if I can securely operate my business while in China. I was planning to spend a year in Kunming learning Mandarin but given the drought issue that's off the table now and I have found a school in Guangzhou. So it seamed like an impossible dream come true to be able to go there to learn Mandarin and have this lovely lady with me as well. Maybe I should simply stop wasting my time/money with chnlove and wait until I am there for the year to learn Mandarin?
Its been 3 days since my last letter to her and she has not replied yet. I asked some hard questions and told her that I will still make this trip soon for other reasons that I described above. Since I had not heard anything about if she received my gift I also gently inquired if the address that is on her profile was accurate. She is usually fairly quick to reply to my letters, so needless to say I am a little concerned.
I appreciate your help on this issue....sadly I feel no better about any of this then I did before posting. But I do like having people to talk to about it who understand the trials and tribulations of this process. Needless to say its not exactly something that my friends and family really care to discuss.
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I understand she does not have a computer. My wife had a computer when I was writing to her, but no web camera. This was not a problem, as she would go regularly to an internet cafe, and use their computers that did have a web camera. I guess one of my concerns...one of several, is the lack of communication outside of the EMF's. While some have made this trip to China based only on EMF's and have been successful, many other have not been successful. Have you talked to her on the phone? Any kind of communication outside of the EMF?
Another concern I have, is obviously the same concern that you have. This last gift that you sent to her...in fact, even the first time you sent something, and it was not delivered until you started making waves. It is very strange for a woman in any country (or man for that matter) to get a gift, and not acknowledge it. There have been cases (and I am not saying yours is one of them), where a man has been writing to a woman, only to be writing a translator. When he sends a gift, it ends up at the agency.
For myself, I see a bunch of red flags. But this is me. I am not saying for sure that there are problems here...but there does seem to be some odd signs pointing in the wrong direction. When are you planning on taking this trip? I would not be surprised if right before your trip, you get a letter saying she has to leave town on business, or her mother is sick and in the hospital. I would be strongly urging direct contact with her via web camera. Internet cafe's are plentiful in China. Even in the smaller cities. There are really no excuses for at least going on web camera even once. It is not too expensive to do it once for even 30 minutes.
This is my opinion...please take it as that.
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Martin, I agree with everything you said. While I hate to admit this, part of the reason why I sent the gift to her address without saying anything to her first was in part to "validate" it. As a computer expert and very handy at finding virtually anything on the internet I was a bit perplexed by my inability to get a lock on the address. Also I had a few conversations as to what hotels I should stay at and she told not to worry about it that she would help me find one once I got there.....Needless to say I explained that I have several requirements such as high speed internet access and that I would need to make a reservation BEFORE coming. Also it seems that EVERY flight I have checked out has me arriving at 9:45 at night in Guangzhou and there is still about a 1.5 hour drive to Zhongshan from the airport. The LAST thing I want to do is find a hotel at 11pm in a foreign country!!!
I am planning this trip for the later part of May as that is when my visa will expire and the weather gets a bit rainy in that region in June-July. Again the odd thing here is that SHE asked me to come see her. So if there is some sort of scam going on here, I am not seeing it. I would think that if the agency is pulling a fast one to get more credits from me that they would simply keep putting it off in order to get me write more often??.....newbie here so maybe I am ignorant?
In my last letter I did make a request that we start to exchange emails even if the translation is not perfect. My thoughts are that I simply cannot afford to have a translator forever! I did get the Besta-7000 (very cool:icon_cool:) and I told her that if we keep the emails simple, than it will help us to communicate in a more personal way that may not be possible via chnlove. Since she has a page on 51.com (Chinese Facebook) than she obviously has the ability to use a computer somewhere. I know she has a cellphone with a camera...she likes to take pictures of herself in fancy clothes where she works as a clerk. I suggested this once before early on but she claimed that is was not convenient. I would note that she rarely updates or even posts on her 51.com profile page...so??
As mentioned, I am still making this trip regardless if there is anyone there to meet as I am making plans to spend a year there and will need to see about a secure access to my network so I can run my company. Also I just want to get a chance to experience it in a small dose before committing to to the full year there. That was one of the appeals of the Kunming location....smaller city, less industry and awesome weather!!
Of course as of late I have been marking a list of other ladies who are in Guangdong and will make some inquiries to them before my trip if this whole thing goes south with this current lady.........I hope it works out with her, but I am a realist as well.
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I agree, I would NOT trust the agency. There have been guys here who have written thru the agency asking for direct contact information while telling the agency that they would still be using EMF's. That way the agency believes they are still going to get your money from them. They are more willing this way. Secondly I personally would not make the trip to her without at least an agency web cam chat. They are usually more than willing to set one up. Of course her hangup will be the language issue. That is very common. But through the agency they will be able to translate for you. If she is unwilling to do even that, it would raise a very big red flag. You can still do it, but we have seen too many guys lose out when they have not had at least that contact.
Her age is another issue. She is very young and since the 1980's there has been the one child rule in China so she could very well be an only child and her mother may have instilled this in her since childhood especially if she is divorced that her daughter is her only source of help in her old age. She should not have gotten onto the agency roles unless she was sure this is what she wanted as it is usually very expensive for them. But again she is young and maybe immature.
Listen to your own instincts, they are usually the best indicator. Stay around here, there are a lot men who have friends and friends of friends who are looking for a western man. So if this doesnt work out, try again. by the way welcome. i would suggest you spend some time reading through the forums and getting ideas.
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I don't know where you are...but if you are close to Canada, there is a red eye flight out of Toronto's Pearson International Airport. It goes to Hong Kong first, and then you can change planes, and go to Guangzhou. I have never taken this flight, but I believe Chong(Another member here) has.
The airline is Cathay Pacific. I just checked it out, and I see it leaves Pearson at 1:30 AM, and arrives in GZ at 8:55 AM. This would solve the arriving at night problem.
Also, since you are going through GZ, you might consider visiting our resident forum Ambassador. TTWJR32 (Ted) visits with many guys coming through the city.
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Lain,
I know you have reiterated that it was ''Her'' that contacted you in the first instance, but in all likelihood it was the Agency/translator that was sending out the admiration letters on her behalf. Your lady not knowing anything about it until you replied...
Going back to the age thing, ..... These Chinese younger ladies can be quite fickle to say the least Lain, (especially when being an only child. But your saying she has a sibling sister, but then she is the youngest, so probably a little spoilt anyway....) Has she mentioned anything about the age difference to you??
The communication thing you have with her at the moment is rather basic to say the least. Not only that, it's open to abuse from the agency side of things. Which could be one reason why you get contradictory/conflicting messages. This is where the translator has written some of the replies, and these tend to be full of fluff to keep you keen ...lol!!! ( You'd be surprised how often that sort of thing goes on a these agencies)
As for not having a computer, that's pretty much a lame excuse these days. There are multitudes of internet cafes everywhere in China now Lain, even if she managed to find the time once a week to visit one of these internet cafe's, ...it would show some positive interest in you. And i can assure you when a Chinese lady IS interested, they tend to go that extra mile for you....
As i see it, your having a good few doubts about this lady at the moment, and it's going to be difficult for you to get to the bottom of anything, while your going through a third party all the time in your communications!! As your going over to China anyway in the very near future , why not leave things as a status quo and sort things out with her when you get over there. Believe me you'll know if there's a future for you both from ''Day One''
In the meantime, you can try making suggestions about other means of communication, in the form of emails, Phone calls, IM's and webcam IM's ...just depends on her English abilities, if she will prepared to partake in those activities. It can be a lot of fun, if your serious about each other, and at the very least shows willingness to at least try to communicate...
David....
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Thanks JimB,
I have actually spent about a week reading up here before I registered. Lots of good stuff to be sure!
As for her family, she does have an older sister but her parents are divorced. In fact she states the problem with her mother was due to her older sister telling her mother before this lady had a chance to do it first. There seems to be some "issues" between her and her sister as she is not too keen on talking about her and when she has its not been in a positive manner....Usually I get the reply "Its Complicated"
As I already mentioned as well, and you noted YES...it seams that part of this issue is that her mother has expressed the idea that she may be left alone in China. But as I have also eluded too, I am very open to the idea of living there if we were to get married as I have very few family members here in the states and since I can operate my company from anywhere it makes great financial sense to live there. Heck if I took my income from last year and converted it to RMB I could have bought a nice apartment with money left over to furnish it!!
She should not have gotten onto the agency roles unless she was sure this is what she wanted as it is usually very expensive for them.
Yes, this is something that I did bring up a few letters ago, and I asked her POINT BLANK that if she was not committed to this process that she should tell me now. I explained that while I was not mad at her, I was upset that she would join up for a service like this and NOT tell her family. That being said she explained to me that she planned on telling her family IF she found someone that she thought would be a match. Her profile is 2 years old and she tells me that in all that time none of the men she has spoken with have made her feel as special as I have, and that I am the first one she has asked to come see her. But as explained above it seems her sister beat her to the punchline in regards to informing her mother.
It all seems a bit crazy, but yesterday I was biking around the OSU campus where I live and I asked a few young Chinese girls out on the oval (large courtyard) what their parents would think if they were still in China and asked to date a western guy...of 3 that I spoke too, they all said it would be problematic. And these are Chinese ladies going to school here in the US!! So it may really be a major family matter?? There are just too many other red flags for me and if I am actually being gamed I would like to cut my losses short and use them for my trip.
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One more thing about the Chinese, they are very reluctant to talk about their family in any real way until you are a part of it. So dont be misled by that fact either way, As you say, she told you that you are the first one to come to see her. She is probably scared and could be using her mother as an excuse. I would do three things. First calm her fears down, reassure her you are only there for the two of you to get together and see if there is any chemistry, no expectations of sex or anything, dont push her, You have to put yourself in her shoes. She has probably heard horror stories about western men coming over and marrying them, taking them back to the US and setting them up as prostitutes or being abused by her husband. I heard that a number of times. Thankfully Gina knows me and doesnt listen to them. we have been married for 8 months now. I heard of, I cannot remember who it was now, he is a member here, taking his new wife to a Chinese restaurant here in the US and the Chinese waiter telling his wife this. She got all upset. secondly get a web cam visit. Thirdly go to China and have a ball. It will be the experience of a lifetime. Then if it doesnt work out, let Ted and Willy set you up, they know the places in GZ.
She is very pretty as are a lot of Chinese women. There are a lot more out there so dont be afraid to cut it off if it doesnt meet your expectations. It used to be that Chinese women matured faster than a man but i dont know if that still holds true today. Especially if they are an only child. I see a lot of spoiled younger women. My step daughter being one of them.
I know you said she had a sister, but it could be a step sister. Chinese men are allowed to marry and have 3 children, each with a different wife of course, but the women can only have one without government approval. That could be why it is "complicated".
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and to add a little to what JimB has stated with the horror stories that they
have heard. there are a lot of young ladies here in China that are a little hesitant
of western men because of being told that we are only interested in sex with them
Looking for conquests as they have related to me in discusions. i have heard this many times
from the reading corners i attend to read to and talk with people wanting to learn
and better their english.
but i like Martin just see to many red flags here especially after a 4 month letter
writing campaign that should not be ignored.
and if you do come this way and sounds like you are then look me up when you get
here and i will give you any help that you might need when here.
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Ive only read a bit of this thread, but 23 is very young - is there much of an age difference? All ladies mature at different ages of course - my ex was 29, but she was incredibly young and I am looking for someone much more mature.
Parental (especially the mother`s) approval is very important!
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I see Zhongshan comes up in a post. Send me the details of the agency and the women by PM. Give me the all the details that you have on her and I will check her out. I live in Zhongshan and I know that the largest agency here does play games and has staff just to play the emf game to the limit and the women know nothing about it.
I know two translators left an agency here this week and the boss was ringing round the ladies on the sites advising them not to speak with them or anyone lese about the agency.
I think that there is a possibility of you being taken for a ride here.
As for travelling if you are coming to Zhongshan then it is far easier to travel to Hong Kong as there are more flights and it is a cheaper route.. You then do not have to leave the terminal to get a ferry direct to Zhongshan. No point in going all the way to Guangzhou first and catch bus back.
I can always meet you at then ferry terminal and take you to a decent hotel in the city centre.
I run my internet business from here and the conversion rate gives me a good living.
Willy
Just as an addition to the one childs rule. If a couple marry and they have both been from a one child family then they can have two children.
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Lain,
Hello and welcome to the forum. I just wanted to put in my 2 cents worth here. I have just returned from my meeting with a chinese lady in Snigapore. It did not go well to say the least. I have no regrets though. I got a fantastic trip out of it. You mentioned that you have asked your lady if she had a computer and her reply was that she has no computer at home. I had asked this lady that I went to go meet the same question and got the same response, "I don't have computer at home". As we were sitting in a restaurant having a meal (this is about the time I had told her that she was not the woman for me) she proceeds to pull out a laptop computer out of her purse, boots it up and plugs in a network access USB card and is up and running on the web! I realised that I should have specified my questions a little better to her. She did not have a computer at home, she carried it around with her in her purse. My concern with your lady would be that she has a Chinese facebook page. She updated it pretty quickly with photos of her with flowers that you had sent her. She had access to her page some way.
Another woman has contacted me from another site. We have had only 2 emails exchanged and she wanted to have direct contact. The emails were not through a translator either. They were short and to the point on most things. She knows a little english. We have had several IM's and 2 web cam chats now too. I thought that the phone calls and the texting and the IM's with the other lady in Singapore was good direct contact. We did not have any web cam chats, eventhough her laptop had a built in camera and microphone! I see a world of difference in the communication now. I would say get as much direct contact as possible. Make sure you get answers to your questions that you are satisfied with. Best of luck to you.
Dave C
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Hello Lain
My thought about the "sister".... My Chinese daughter always refer to her cousins as her brothers.. It seems they doesn't have any word for cousin..
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Hi Peter,
Actually, there are words to describe someone's cousin...depending on which side of the family they're on...
Biao ge/jie/mei/di (Mother's side)
Tang ge/jie/mei/di (Father's side)
Note the similarities... That said, often, chinese will refer to a cousin as a brother or sister if they're also quite close to that family when describing a relationship to someone, especially if they're not sure of the word (cousin).
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Hi Peter,
Actually, there are words to describe someone's cousin...depending on which side of the family they're on...
Biao ge/jie/mei/di (Mother's side)
Tang ge/jie/mei/di (Father's side)
Note the similarities... That said, often, chinese will refer to a cousin as a brother or sister if they're also quite close to that family when describing a relationship to someone, especially if they're not sure of the word (cousin).
There are words as you say but not many Chinese seem to not use them. The cousins are described to me on visits as my mothers sisters elder daughter or my fathers sisters younger son or Mothers brothers younger daughter.
I think even for the Chiense the words get too long and sister seems to slip in easier.
Willy
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Hi Peter,
Actually, there are words to describe someone's cousin...depending on which side of the family they're on...
Biao ge/jie/mei/di (Mother's side)
Tang ge/jie/mei/di (Father's side)
Note the similarities... That said, often, chinese will refer to a cousin as a brother or sister if they're also quite close to that family when describing a relationship to someone, especially if they're not sure of the word (cousin).
My wife refers to all her girlfriends as sister as well. In the beginning, it got downright confusing, as I no longer knew who was family and who wasn't. In fact Peter, i think my wife refers to your wife as her sister.
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The sister & brother thing are sometimes honorifics, just like a black guy mght greet a buddy "Hiya Brudda".
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Every attempt to make a "real" line of communication with this lady is met with nothing but excuses. I will be writing one last letter with a more aggressive request/demand for direct communications and if I am refused, or given more excuses than I will cut my losses, and alter my plans to take this trip there on my own terms. I have been wanting to go to China for several years and maybe not having to deal with this on my first trip there may be a blessing in disguise?
All this said, I still sincerely hope that she is a real person, and this is simply a matter of "cold feet" on her behalf. In my business I have dealt with Chinese companies on several occasions and I have come to EXPECT that I am being lied too and given the run-around on addressing major issues.
Ya live and ya learn, it will not deter me from this trip if this was a scam...and since I was already planning this trip to see if I could securely operate my company from behind the "Great Firewall Of China (http://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/china-stuff/china-tech/the-great-firewall-longer-higher-meaner/)" which I am fairly sure will pose no problem to a person of my technical skills.
It was also my plan to gather information for a return trip for Mandarin classes that may keep me there for an entire year. Given everything I have read about living in China it would seam to me that rather than waste my money I will simply wait until I am living there and do it the old fashioned way.....meet them in person while living there!
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Lain,
seems to me that your well grounded in this and like you said it is
more than likely a scam by the agency to create revenue. its a long
time 4 months but lessons learned for the next time. your right if your
living here you will have the opportunity to meet many women of all
ages here who would be interested in talking with you and meeting you.
if you end up around Guangzhou area when you land look me up and i
will offer you assistance.
Ted
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Hi Peter,
Actually, there are words to describe someone's cousin...depending on which side of the family they're on...
Biao ge/jie/mei/di (Mother's side)
Tang ge/jie/mei/di (Father's side)
Note the similarities... That said, often, chinese will refer to a cousin as a brother or sister if they're also quite close to that family when describing a relationship to someone, especially if they're not sure of the word (cousin).
There are words as you say but not many Chinese seem to not use them. The cousins are described to me on visits as my mothers sisters elder daughter or my fathers sisters younger son or Mothers brothers younger daughter.
I think even for the Chiense the words get too long and sister seems to slip in easier.
Willy
It depends on the person and family. In my case, when I introduce my mom's best friend's kids to my friends, I simply say cousin, and when they introduce me, I'm their "biao di". Technically, we're not blood related, but their family is much closer to being my cousins than some of my real cousins. I've very rarely heard people reciting their family tree as it were to introduce someone. :icon_confused: And usually that's when they're distant relatives (2nd cousins and so on). But for more immediate members, it's always been cousins...
That said, when you address them, it's often polite to address them as ge ge and mei mei and so on and so forth (or name+brother/sister). So I would call you Willy-ge ge (now that's a scary thought!)
Wait until you get into the fun of naming uncles and aunties (and if you were much younger, grandma and grandpa) on top of all of this... then your head will start to spin...
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Mustfocus,
I have listened to this on my mandarin audio cd's and it does make your head spin. I got totally confused in what everybody was called, such as "mothers brothers son that is older than me." I gave up trying to learn this for now. I do like Willy-ge ge though! I guess that makes me Bee-ge ge! Haha!
Dave C
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Ya live and ya learn, it will not deter me from this trip if this was an agency scam...and since I was already planning this trip to see if I could securely operate my company from behind the "Great Firewall Of China (http://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/china-stuff/china-tech/the-great-firewall-longer-higher-meaner/)" which I am fairly sure will pose no problem to a person of my technical skills.
'
I have no problem operating my business from behind the 'Great Firewall ' and my business is one they like to keep away if they can!
On the rare occasions that I do have a problem I simply clink on Expressvpn and operate through a proxy server in USA or GB.
Willy
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You're not in porn are you Willy? Willy's not your stage name is it?!? Hahah!
I'm just kidding, aren't you in the music business?
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You're not in porn are you Willy? Willy's not your stage name is it?!? Hahah!
I'm just kidding, aren't you in the music business?
It not a prop either!!!:icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:
Specialist music business. Believe it or not it is Christian Music. Hence the reason I have problems at times.
I arrange it, record it and sell it.
Willy
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I have no problem operating my business from behind the 'Great Firewall ' and my business is one they like to keep away if they can!
On the rare occasions that I do have a problem I simply clink on Expressvpn and operate through a proxy server in USA or GB.
Willy
Well I am not sure what type of business you run from your site, but my network handles thousands of credit card numbers every month and I have exceptionally detailed information on my customers including credit profiles and D&B reports. Over the past 3 years I have lost count of the number of hacking attempts that originated from Chinese IP addresses. In fact in the past year its now virtually a daily thing. Pretty pathetic methods being used, but my system uses a Breach Web Defend (http://www.breach.com/products/webdefend.html).....so no worries here! My concern is based on my laptop being accessed while I am logged in. China uses a real time data filter that can read virtually anything you are accessing while inside China....Read more here...http://rconversation.blogs.com/rconversation/2009/09/chinas-censorship-arms-race-escalates.html
After reading about all the scams and tricks that have been played out I am thinking that maybe I should formulate a "System" for all the chnlove agencies. Or maybe I should just start my own dating website service? :cool: I specialize in SEO (search engine optimization) so I could easily have a competitive site that ranks high in Google in no time at all.
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I thought of the problem with handling card details while inside China but so I do not do it from here.
I have used outside sources such as pay pal for many years as it takes the worries off my shoulders. I do not get to see card details in china so neither does anyone else. But then my card payments number in hundreds rather than thousands.
I rarely use a laptop here as I also bought a PC back here on a later trip back to UK.
Willy
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Well everyone...I thought that I would update this thread with what appears to be good news.
I wrote to the agency with some basic requests for information and to voice some concerns. They replied in a very fast time and addressed everything that I had concerns over and then some in a very professional manner. While some small doubts still linger, I felt that at very least the communication was very positive and I had a chance to express the reasons for my doubts. To that effort I have agreed to retract some of the content of my posts out of respect for the efforts that were made. That being said time will tell and I made it clear that I have a "no tolerance" policy for fraud. I am a very trusting person and while I have concerns, I will give them the benefit of the doubt.
One of the issues that I was unaware of, and is a consideration is that the lady to whom I am communicating with actually lives very far from the agency and it is a major effort to make the trip there for a video conference. I looked it up using Google maps and indeed its over an hour and half away by car. Plus as mentioned she does not have a computer, and I did remember that she told me several months ago that she is not very good with computers so she may be uncomfortable with an internet cafe if she does not know how to make it work. I know how pissed off I can get using a Mac... I am a Linux and PC sort of guy..Gotsta have my right click menu options!
I was assured that we will work towards finding some way to have "live" communications and I am sure that it will go along way toward restoring my faith in the services. Being a computer expert (addict) I do sometimes forget that some people are not all that good with them..... like me with a baseball...its just NOT my thing. It took me 2 hours to figure out how to make a profile on the 51.com site (Chinese Facebook) where she has a profile and I just downloaded QQ so maybe that can be a path towards this effort? Google site translation simply does not work on the 51.com site and you cant copy and past flash menu options into a translation system so it was a real learning exercise in the challenges that language WILL have moving forward.
As for the issues of family having a problem with our meeting. On this matter I think its factual. I had not weighed all the reasons that her family may not like this, and as another member here so well pointed out there is a concern that I may not be what I appear. I guess in some areas of China westerners have for lack of a better description "taken liberties" with ladies there and of course it only takes a few bad actors to ruin it for the rest of us and create a scenario of mistrust.
I am sure that these types of problems come up frequently, and being a noob at this I do believe that my inexperience in dealing with these types of issues may have shown through. Don't get me wrong, I am still keeping one eye open at all times but I am going to continue with this lady as she truly is amazing :heart:. I hope that I am one of the ones who can buck the trend and make my first visit a success.
Of course now I just need to figure out how to convince her family that I am a worthy suitor for their daughter. :-/
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Lain,
Glad to hear.
At some point, perhaps you may want to get her mailing address. You'll want to mail her some flowers/card/gift at some point. It'll also get you away from the agency's control of her correspondance.
Do you want to list you & your lady on the "Brotherhood List" thread ???
All I need is your first name, when you started communicating with her and her profile number's last FOUR digits.
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Can I ask you some questions? Did Chnlove supply you with the address of the agency? I have no doubt you receive the reply from Chnlove HK rather than the local agency that affiliates to chnlove.
Chnlove takes a lot in affiliation fees from these local agencies every year so they are not going to come down hard on any. They will accept any reply the agency gives to them.
Does the women live or work a long way from the agency? Because what you were told you is fairly normal practise when they they are putting off the inevitable question.
Have the local agency actually seen this women? How do they contact her by telephone? Do you have a telephone number for her as she must have a cell phone?
Kunming to Zhongshan is quite a way by road. Was she living in Kumning or Zhongshan when joined the Zhongshan agency?
You should apply to the agency for her address. It costs you but it is always worth while.
The family problem is not caused by something someone has done before. You say she is not computer literate, well if she is not then her family will definately not be. They do not believe that you can find love from a TV screen and to most over the age of 35 that is what a PC screen is.
If I told my dad that one day a man would land on the moon he would have laughed all the way to the pub. I could hear imagine him saying "Finding a woman through some sort of wireless wave. Never heard such rubbish." Wish I could do that in Chinese.
Yuyan is a farming area that is suffering a huge drought at the moment they are so so up on modern advancements.
What you really have to insist on is to receive everday photos from her not the photoshopped ones that are clearly evident on the site. She will have dozens of her self. Do not let her say anything different she has a phone they all have cameras on them here.
By the time you have worked your way through to 'live communications' they will have taken umpteen more dollars from you in emf's.
I really think that maybe you have opened more questions than have been answered which is usual with chnlove and sorry in your position maybe I would not be as confident as you are right now.
You said earlier on that SHE found you on the website. If she is so poor with a computer then where was she when she found you?
In a computer cafe that she may be frightened of using! At the agency where she lives so far away they cannot fit up a web cam session! How does she maintain her .51 webspace.
This all adds up to searches being made by the agency workers to find and sent the initial notes to. You respond and they are in the money from the emfs.
Many agencies affiliated to chnlove have set their staff quota's for sending out the cupid notes and that they must stick to.
To me, your experience, is akin to exactly that.
Just wait to spend a year in Guangzhou learning Chinese. You will have so much choice of real women on the ground, so to speak, you will be overawed at times.
Willy
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Willy,
To be fair as I mentioned some of this was my own noobie knowledge of how chnlove works. Yes she contacted me with the first letter, however I did mark her as a "favorite" which I did not know until recently that when you do this the lady is notified. While I did not send here the first letter....I did in a way send a message that I was interested even if indirectly.
Yes, she does have a page on 51.com but I have read every part (that I can) and she does not keep it up. In fact most of the comments and content are about 1-2 years old, with the exception being lots of pictures....all of which I have downloaded. The page is not all that customized and after making my own profile there today..which was really freaking hard because Google translation does NOT work there I would say that she has maybe a couple days worth of work into it and most of that was uploading the tons of pictures. Which is really nice because now I can look at 5 times the amount of pictures that chnlove allows you to attach to a letter...and some of them pics are as plain as it gets to...well, lets just say I really like them. :blush: as any man with a pulse would.
As for the agency address. Here is what I did. I wrote a basic request to chnlove for a direct mailing address, phone number and contact name for the agency that handles my ladies account. Chnlove replied within 1 business day ( I made the request on Sunday afternoon) I then wrote a similar basic request to that agency for the name of the person who was doing the translations, along with a request for daily and hourly prices for a translator for when I make my trip there. I also asked about web-video conference for my lady and was told that it is offered. Not a problem....but the agency is located in Dongguan and my lady lives in Zhongshan about 98 miles away by Google maps from zip code to zip code. For a person without a car, this is what I would consider a long distance.
I do have her actual address...which oddly I was never charged for. Maybe because I did not request it until after we had exchanged letters for about 2 months. Now that I said that I am sure 2 credits will go missing? Anyway as I mentioned on my first post I did send here a gift late last month after the issue with her family came up about stopping our meeting. What made me suspicious was that after exchanging several letters she did not mention the gift....which was part of my grounds for thinking that something was not passing the smell test. That said, I did send her flowers for Valentines day and she did upload a couple pictures of them to her 51.com page and also never told me...I found them there about 2 months ago while trying to figure out how to create my own page....I gave up back then but got it this time. Trial and error, all that damn flash being used makes it impossible to translate!!!
Yes I know she has a cell phone, in fact I have lots of pics of her where she is in front of a mirror taking them with the cell phone. But honestly I have never asked for that number because she cant speak English at all....and I could maybe make an ass of myself saying something like "hello, my name is Lance" in Mandarin and that would be about a 30 second call. Besides that a phone call is not what I would call "verification" that I am really talking to her.....Could be anyone if this was a scam just like the letters.
I was assured that she can use QQ...which until I read about it here I was unaware of. On my main systems I have disabled ALL Instant Message systems and any other type of systems like it. I will install it on my laptop on a virtual drive so it runs in its own process without making any system modifications that could create any security issues....YES, I am a security freak!! But 6 years, not a single virus, trojan, remote exploit or system breaches. As a web based company security is what gives my clients peace of mind.
I just finished up another long letter to her and I mentioned that I had made a 51.com profile and that I will be installing QQ soon and I even found 2 computer cafes within walking distance to her apartment....and I even gave her the address. So, at this point I feel that I have given her every reasonable option to be able to communicate with me outside the agency....even if I can barely use the 51.com site yet, but at very least she can and now I will take a wait and see stance.
I do think the issue with her family was a major setback but is for real. So I am not going to push the matter because if this is for real, and I blow it by being a jerk about it than I have no one but myself to blame......and honestly gentleman, this young lady is beyond my expectations and I have spent my entire life searching for a lady like this. I can wait a little while longer so long as we can establish some lines of communication outside the agency for simple daily chats or picture sharing.
Based on many, MANY hours of reading here there is one common theme that I see and that is a lack of patience in dealing with problems as they arise. I am not saying that I have not made the same mistakes, but now that I have read many of them I will show some extended patience while still making sure that I am vigilant for those red flags. I did make it very clear that if any fraud takes place that I would take action and that I have a zero tolerance policy. Since regardless of the outcome with this lady I will still be traveling to China I am not above making a "personal" visit to the agency if fraud is proven in the end.....But for the time being I have been given enough support from them to feel that much of this can simply be chalked up to my lack of knowledge about just how much difference in culture and communication there really is.
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well i for one wish you the best on your trip here. if you land by GZ
then look me up.
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Well we have more information here which would allow me to tone down my comments a little. The natural photo's, the information about the age on her website, having her address etc.
Just one other point maybe you had better clear up with her which language she speaks as many in the south speak entirely different to the mandarin in the north. My wife could not understand hardly a word of the Mandarin I had learned before meeting her.
But the biggest test is when you meet face to face. She has no English so a great deal of patience will be needed on both sides.
Willy
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Well, its been awhile and I thought I would update this post.
Sadly, I am still NOT getting any direct communication despite having setup QQ and making several requests for a chat. I get the time difference thing, but she has not even tried to best of my knowledge. I have also been given excuses like....working late hours, don't like the internet cafe because too many people smoke (which I could see to some extent) ....etc, etc....:dodgy:
Anyway, I have scheduled my trip anyway as I have several other reasons for going. She states that she wants to know when I will be coming, but will not tell me if she will be allowed to meet me??...for those who have not read the entire thread, her parents have "forbid" our meeting, which is one reason why I may request that both the agency, and this lady (if real) be removed from the chn network since the ENTIRE site is for the express reason that she is telling me she cannot perform....which is to meet, and possibly marry a man.
At this point to be very honest I have NO faith that the agency is legit or being honest with me, and am willing to bet that once I arrive the agency or she will have some BS excuse why she cant meet me...and by the way we have some "other" ladies...and waste my time & money once more.:@
Still being cautiously optimistic, but not holding my breath on meeting with the lady whom I have been conversing with. As I mentioned on another post, in my business I have had to close some business deals with Chinese firms in the past...and being deceived (lied too) just seems to be part of the culture......Let's hope that my prior experiences are not reinforced once I get there.
Anyway, I will be getting into Guangzhou late on the 27th and will stay in the "big city" for 5 days, then drop down to Zhongshan for the remaining 5 days....So if anyone from this site will be there I would be interested in getting together for some "real world" advice and chat about living in China. My trip will involve checking out a language study school in Guangzhou and checking out some apartments in both cities. Amazing price differences from one city to the other for apt rentals!
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Hi Lain,
I take offense to the part where you say being lied to is part of the culture. Just because you've had bad dealings with some unscrupulous people doesn't mean everyone is like that. Yes, you have been lied to and I would recommend you do not use chnlove, but do not tar the entire culture with the same stroke.
And note, EVERY culture/society has people like these... I don't think anyone would appreciate they get tarred with the same feathers that the bad people in their group...
That said, try other sites before you leave like blossoms or CLL...maybe your luck will be better there. No translators needed, although you may have some issues communicating directly.
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Or wait a few more weeks and listen for the news.
Willy
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Lain, Just a note about your gift to her. I have several pen pals there and was told by both that to recieve a present from
one of us is a sign of marrage, and they will not recive it or let anyone know about it. I explained that in America it is common
to send a friend a gift and they both understood at once that it was our custom. So she might have taken the gift wrong. You
should explain to her that its a custom only - nothing else. I am sure the brothers here will explain it to you better. And you
may be talking to a translator, this has been a problem for the brothers here. But there are guys that have experence here on
that subject. You get letters, phone calls, and pictures all to keep you spending that money. I've been there, done that, so buyer
beware. Best of luck and welcome to the forum. Keep us posted, glad to have you.
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I should hold fire for a couple more weeks. There may be some news on reputable and ethical agency by then or at least by the time you get to Guangzhou or Zhongshan at the end of this month beginning of next.
Willy
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Points taken...Maybe I should quantify my remarks by stating that there may be a cultural difference on making "agreements" or communicating in a straight manner. As a technical person who does not like to be led around in circles when communicating I get inpatient when basic questions cannot be answered or addressed with some degree of clarity. I was not intending to paint a broad brush on the entire culture per-say, but there are real differences in HOW people communicate (at least in business) and even written agreements seem to be constantly open for negotiation after they have been signed. I hope my experience is the exception and if anyone took offense to my wording or explanation than I am sorry. I am a very understanding and patient person, however I am also a person who calls it like I see it....and in my world, withholding facts is akin to lying.
As I also stated, part of my trip is to see it in person, up close with everyday folks...Maybe its just my experience with the "business culture"...but this agency has merely re-enforced that perception and while I may be wrong?, I have a feeling that at some point my communication with this lady ended, but the agency simply took it upon themselves to stand in her place and get paid. There was a point in which the style and content of the letters dramatically changed and they have done nothing to dispel my doubts.
And yes, I have a handful of chnlove credits left and once they are gone...that's it!! So far it appears to be a complete waste of money and again, simple basic questions get replied to with nonsensical answers and excuses. That is why I am making plans to simply see it for myself and if all goes well the information I gather will allow me to make plans to spend a year living there. Where I will be able to meet, and build a relationship in person the old fashioned way.
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I can but give you some more facts about your situation....as indeed it happened to me !!
I went to meet Ladies from the CHNLove Agencies 5 times....and each time got the same deal...the person meeting me was NOT the person I had been communicating with......
When I complained to the Agencies I got the same drivel........."the Lady you were interested has...disappeared, gone cold, died, found somebody else, gone away on Business, on holiday, got a sick Mum/Dad/Uncle/Aunt"....etc, etc, etc...BUT, we have many nice Ladies here and would you like to meet Ms...XXXXX....blah, blah,blah !!!
I gave the whole thing away as too difficult...and then I found this Forum and got to understand what a goose I had been by not doing it right in the first place !!!
I had a contact from a lovely Lady on Blossoms...and in the first contact she gave me her personal email address.
After 2 emails between us SHE invited me to meet her on QQ.......which I did.
This lady has always been EXACTLY as she represented herself...no photoshop, no translator fluff, no lies, no deception.....no cost to me !!!
Within 3 months of our first contact, we met in person in her home town of Chengdu.
The rest, as they say, is history :icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:
So get knotted CHNLove, with all your hooks and traps for Western Men to continually bleed us for EMF's, to continually and deliberatlely to mislead us and defraud us over the "so-called" women we are "allegedly" communicating with. And goodbye to your photoshopping malpractice as well !!
The message ??.....CHNLove maybe is the largest and easiest trap to fall into when looking for a Cjhinese wife...but the last thing they care about is YOU. There are other sites, more difficult to negotiate, more prone to contain potential scammers...but at least "what you see is what you get"
So Lain....nil desperandum...there are thousands of wonderful Ladies out there...you need to get a bit creative and find the special one for you.
When you find her...it is a life changing moment.
David
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As I also stated, part of my trip is to see it in person, up close with everyday folks..
That is why I am making plans to simply see it for myself and if all goes well the information I gather will allow me to make plans to spend a year living there. Where I will be able to meet, and build a relationship in person the old fashioned way.
Lain,
That's the best plan given that you have the 'time'. I went through the same situation as you. I came to Taishan and met many ladies face-to-face ... and eventually, my wife. Lucky for me, I can speak the local Taishanese dialect.
How's your Cantonese/Mandarin ??? Network as much as you can in GZ. I met my wife through her uncle through his friend AND through his friend who was a security guard at my hotel. Make it known that you're searching for a GF/future wife. You'll also find that women will be attracted to you like a magnet because you'll stand out.
Have a good trip ... All the best.
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Lain , good luck on your trip , make sure you have a Besta or similar electronic translator with you as these are invaluable , your head will be on a swivel with all the beautiful ladies , also check out Asian friend finder site or if you are already on QQ type in your heading that you only speak English and you should have about 4 or 5 ladies wanting to speak to you on any given day , regards Robert
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Lain,
Apology accepted. One thing you have to consider, a lot of business people (regardless of background) will look for shortcuts or ways to profit from you no matter what the cost. Not the majority of them, but some of them... and some of them think big. That's one of the reasons why this forum was created.
As I said previously, try some of the other sites where you can make contact like Blossoms or CLL. For a fraction of the cost, it will at least get you started before you go to China. If you have any contacts in China, see if you can nudge them a bit. Either way, you'll (most likely) be removing the translator barrier... just be careful because many of the agencies post their ladies on multiple sites. The only difference is that if you use one of the two sites above, they don't profit from it...
Good luck
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David, the story you detailed above is pretty much the story line I am getting. For me its not about the money per-say, as I would gladly pay what I have been charged for the service....HOWEVER I have a major mental hangup with being ripped off and outright theft ranks as one of the few things that can move me to become downright violent. :icon_frown:
I will be informing all the people involved this week as to my trip and we will simply see where the chips fall. And just to publicly say out-loud what some might be thinking..YES chnlove DOES monitor this site since this site appears to be the ONLY forum where you can speak your mind and get assistance with issues such as the ones I have posted here. I made several attempts to post on their support forums but EVERY SINGLE POST I made was blocked and I was never even informed as to why, or for that matter given a private reply by the moderators. This should have been an early indicator that things were not as they appear over there.
I do have a Besta MT-7000 (http://www.amazon.com/Besta-MT-7000-Chinese-English-Electronic-Dictionary/dp/B0024KTI7U) that I got about a month ago and I must say that this device is awesome! Sadly, despite spending some time with it my Mandarin is wholly inadequate for any communication. I have translated many of my needs to small cards (blank business cards) that have dual translated instructions for most of the things I may need, or places that I wish to visit. For instance I have a few places I wish to sight see and all I will need to do is hand the card to a cab driver...simple enough. I am simply unable to tech myself this language...oddly enough due to the fact that I taught myself 5 computer programming codes in only 3 years! I will be visiting the IMandarin School (http://www.imandarin.net/) in Tianhe, Guangzhou at the Metro Plaza to evaluate them for a year long course with a one-to-one tutor. I will also be looking into a smaller school in Zhongshan too. I like the idea of Zhongshan since its a smaller city.
mustfocus....Absolutely no need for any apologies. I have one of those personality types that people either admire, or hate. I say whats on my mind and tell tell like I see it...and highly respect those who do the same. As a highly analytical person...some would say emotionless to a degree, I much prefer to know the facts without all the window dressing. I can handle critique.....your comments were taken as a welcome perspective and again, no need to apologize for helping me to see both sides of the coin. :icon_cool:
I will update my post here with the details when they happen, and if anyone is wondering...YES, I am very much looking forward to this trip and even if I NEVER even speak too, or meet a lady while I am there the trip itself will be the adventure of a lifetime. I have never left the western hemisphere and I cant wait to see China. Meeting a lovely lady would simply be icing on the cake, and if all goes well I may actually prefer to spend the latter half of my life living in China. American culture has me burned out with its extravagant waste and selfish destructive popular culture.
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Lain,
you will find that living here in Guangzhou is really wonderful and would enjoy it living here.
Zhongshan is very small but a nice place also. Guangzhou has everything here unlike some
cities in China. everything from all over the world and the weather is good all year
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Hi Lain,
I've read some of your thread - my epic Hubei thread shows how this can go horribly wrong, although I had lady troubles rather than chnlove/agency troubles.
Anyway, some observations...
I have been repeatedly told by people whose opinions I value to not trust the Chinese. I know the brothers don't like me saying this, but you know, it is what is is. Take care.
Be especially wary if you're thinking of doing business with the Chinese. Witness some of the stuff we've put up with as far as agencies go, and that's in a line of business that in the West is usually pretty honest. Hell, my ex-lady's agency contract cost more than a UK based one charges.
I think my lady was actually fairly honest, however by not being straight with me over her feelings I had to endure a few months of hell. Whether this was a face thing or just a woman thing I'm not sure. I sure as hell picked up on the fact that she didn't really love me, but it's a shame she didn't have the guts to admit it to me instead of us wasting each other's time. I should have dumped her as soon as I returned from visiting her, but I was stumped due to lack of finding a rebound lady and the fact that I really thought we were a great match :s.
chnlove is expensive - I think I would sign up for a flat rate site in future. I know full well that sites that allow ladies to sign up for free are potential minefields, so take care!
Ladies who don't want to ditch QQ or webcam should probably be ditched, come on there are 9500 ladies on chnlove, so find an honest one.
I'm unsure about living in China, the place is very polluted (do you really know what's in your food?) and the corruption worries me. Around Hong Kong is better than places like Hubei where the pollution was just horrible (and that was in the countryside!). If the China bubble bursts it won't be a great place to be.
If you want to set up an agency, well I have been telling everyone there is a HUGE gap in the market for a Chinese INTRODUCTION AGENCY, like they have in Thailand. A Thai agency will cost $3000 but for that they guarantee to find you a wife plus help with visas and that sort of thing. They also screen the ladies and a good agency will reject 80% of ladies. Guess how many of those clearly unsuitable ladies would end up on chnlove or blossoms?
Running an agency isn't that profitable IMHO, a lot of the smaller ones are done as a hobby.
PM me if you want to set up any online ventures in this (or any other niche), I have been testing the waters and I am pleased with how well this stuff monetises :icon_cheesygrin:.
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WOW...Brett, I usually don't comment on your posts. But this time, there are so many things with this post that I find wrong, I can not help but comment.
You know, where I live are a lot of Native Americans. They also have a reputation. Some would say they are all lazy, and all a bunch of drunken Indians. But then again, my best friend since High School is an Ojibwa Indian. He works hard at a lumber mill, has worked his way from the bottom up to management. He likes to have a few beer on the weekends, but nothing too major. He has two beautiful daughters, who also work hard in school. His house is big, he owns a couple of cars. So would it be fair for me to say all Indians are a bunch of lazy drunks? Yet, on this thread, you say that the Chinese are not to be trusted. A blanket statement. Maybe its the British who can not be trusted. After all, how many wars did they start throughout history? For that matter, the German's are pretty terrible for what happened back in the 30's-40's. They can't be trusted either. The Aussi's can't be trusted, for what they all did to the indigenous people there. The American's are also pretty terrible people...every last one of them. You absolutely can't trust an American. I know this for a fact, because I saw one on the news getting arrested for something or other. Shall I continue with the stupid comments?
This leads me to another point in your post..."A Thai agency will cost $3000 but for that they guarantee to find you a wife plus help with visas and that sort of thing." So you are purchasing a wife? I am wondering how any agency can guarantee that you will find a wife? The only way I can see this happening, is if you are just purchasing one. Beyond that, the only two things in life that I was guaranteed, has been death and taxes.
Yes, China is very polluted. "do you really know what's in your food?" I don't even know what's in the food I buy here in Canada! This holier than though attitude against the Chinese people is very racist. Maybe you do not see it, but I certainly do.
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Well said Martin. Couldn't have put it better myself. I hope your wise words give food for thought for everyone on this site and drum home the message that you are not just talking about Chinese women, but about everyone. I doubt whether Brett will learn this lesson, but hopefully the rest of us will stop and think before taking cheap shots at an entire country or race.
Personally speaking, I don't care which continent the moderators come from. It's about character and integrity, not geography. And if they happen to posess Martin's tolerance of difference and his self-awareness, all the better. We all have our prejudices - the problems often come when we fail to acknowledge them in ourselves.
When I got married in Changsha last month, the only other couple in the office was an Indian man and his Chinese bride. Boy, will they have beautiful children.
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Brett, dude, I don't understand you.
You come here, bash chinese people (which is offensive BTW), say you don't trust them, yet you keep returning to a forum where people are looking for chinese women (never mind that some of us are of chinese descent). :dodgy: But let's move on...
You admonish your ex (here) for not ending the relationship, letting it drag on, but you held onto her because you couldn't find a rebound lady? So women are disposable items now? :huh: Like WTF?
You're unsure about living in China because of the pollution... I've got a simple solution for you... DON'T LIVE THERE! While some of the married people here live in China, you don't have to... I'm sure a lot of people refuse to live in the UK because of the perceived image that the climate there can increase their chances of getting rheumatism...
You're worried about the food you consume there... what makes you think any of the food you consume anywhere is any safer? Those cockles you had a few days ago (play along here folks, I'm making a point)... they most likely came off a beach somewhere in the UK where people have died before (harvesting them) and the water probably isn't the best either... The oranges you got from the market most likely came from Florida... Where they use chemicals to keep the pests away and to increase yield... but let's continue...
Corruption... Are you saying that where you live, there are no corrupt people either? Just in your back yard, let's see... wasn't it the UK parliament who got into trouble for expensing things they shouldn't have (last year)? Nope... no corruption there...
If you're in Thailand, you might as well go with the vietmanese as well... for $10k, you'll get a docile one as well (refer to another thread somewhere here for the original news article). A high rejection rate doesn't mean much.
The point is Brett, from the majority of the messages you have posted here, you have a bad sense of self-entitlement. Let's forget your relationship with your ex... what happens if you marry a japanese or thai lady...then find out she is also a spender? Are you going to blame her for your woes as well? I'm sorry this seems harsh, but any time you've received advice, you refuse to follow it, and when the red flags show up, you place blame on others rather than think rationally.
(To the rest of you, sorry if this sounded offensive, but I've gotten quite tired of Brett playing the victim)
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Hey guys no need to get personal with this...My opinions were just that, based on working with about 8 different Chinese firms that I had to deal with in a prior job before starting my own business. While a couple were easy to deal with, the others seemed to think that the contract was the starting place to negotiate and it seemed like prices, delivery times and other very important details of my orders were always being changed mid-order or worse disputed after receiving the payment.....it was an excessive hassle and one reason why I simply stopped using Chinese sources. But again, it was BUSINESS and as a business person I can tell ya that I have had many similar experiences right here in the US. Some people in business seem to think that the art of conducting good business revolves around the idea that every deal should be short profit maximized and be dammed the idea of building a long term business relationship.
Personally, I do not consider myself a racist. However that said I was held at gunpoint and robbed while on a vacation in New Mexico, had my $4500 custom mountain bike stolen (got it back) and was almost the victim of a carjacking while in Chicago and these crimes were all committed by blacks. Now whenever I travel I cannot help but be suspicious...and while I have black friends I can honestly say that the "trust" level is lower. Sorry but life's experiences do have an impact on ones views and how we interact with other races. I have also seen my fair share of Chinese sites (forums) where there is somebody making the same generalizations about westerners....Sadly, I tend to agree with many of them. Fat, lazy, ignorant, selfish.....It sort of comes with the American culture. While I admit to being about 10 pounds overweight I am simply AMAZED at how obese average Americans are.:icon_exclaim:
When I told my best friends wife that I was considering a Chinese wife and maybe even moving there, her reaction was one that I did not expect. She is Korean...enough said. :s
But we do not need to argue of these things or sling insults at each other. I appreciate the support I have found here and I hope that my PERSONAL PRIOR EXPERIENCES will be refuted by real contact, with everyday folks there. Will I be cautious, Of course that is just part of traveling and being safe. But I will not allow myself to become cynical due to a few bad actors. I still believe that there are more good, honest and decent people in society than bad people and if I was wrong....places like this site would not exist.
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Hi Lain,
In the case of Brett's message, it's not you. If you go back through the forums reading Brett's messages, you'll see why some of us have problems with Brett.
As for chinese businesses screwing around with things after the contract has been signed and people paid... you'll find similar businesses everywhere. All you can do about that is let others know about those companies... post a complaint to your local chamber of commerce (and their local chamber), trade association and EDC. As their names get spread around, they will eventually learn.
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Lain,
In normal circumstance i would wholeheartedly agree with you but, ....You need to read Brett's threads to understand where there coming from, and why those above have posted these comments.
Sadly, he has never once listened to anyone's good advice on the Forum, he just simply bumbles on, and then blames anyone or anything at hand why this or that didn't work out!!!
The people who's opinions he values, .... were people he had met ONCE, like the owner of the Japanese dating agency!!! Now he wouldn't have a prejudice against Chinese ladies, .....now Would he??? haha!
Another was just a guy he met on a plane!!!!.......
As i said, read his theads and the posts within and you'll get the picture...
David....
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Well, nothing to comment on this thread. You have to take the good with the bad...
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." So you are purchasing a wife? I am wondering how any agency can guarantee that you will find a wife? The only way I can see this happening, is if you are just purchasing one. Beyond that, the only two things in life that I was guaranteed, has been death and taxes.
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Ok guys and Martin, where do I purchase one of these wife's, I see the price is 3,000 to 10,000, and they are docile....Hummm,
Do I get a recipt in case it fails to work and can I return for a refund?....:icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin::icon_cheesygrin:
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I was in Viet-Nam, and I can tell you that a lot of the ladies are very nice, good looking, and faithful. There is nothing wrong with
a Viet-Nam lady except most of them could use a good dentist, as they have not got enough money to get one and for that I am
sincerly sorry. For the most part, they were hard working people (except those with black pajammas and carrying a AK-47). They
were all farmers and the girls did anything they could to support the family and the familys were tight knit. It has probably changed
by now, but for the most part, it's still the same.
That's my two cents worth...
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Hi Rocky,
It wasn't a putdown of vietnamese women. A few months back, someone had posted an article about chinese men going to Vietnam to purchase a wife (sound familiar) for $10k... the excuse the chinese men gave was that the vietnamese wives were more docile/obedient than chinese women... My point was that if you're into purchasing an asian wife...based on what I have seen Brett post, he might as well follow that article. But then who's he going to blame when that goes south?
Found the post... http://www.chnlove.info/showthread.php?tid=1943
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Rocky,
No, .... it hasn't changed to any noticeable degree, except for the teeth that is!! ...haha!!! You know, that many of the problems of the brown to yellowish stains on their teeth were caused by them being given the then new Tetracycline antibiotic before the age of 7 or so. It permanently stains the enamel of growing teeth and in many cases severely weakened it. Coupled with there love of sweet things (like sugar cane) and it was a real big problem...lol!!!
But your right, they are you describe, and just as family originated as the Chinese ladies. In fact that is basically the norm for all of South East Asian ladies...
David....
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You absolutely can't trust an American. I know this for a fact, because I saw one on the news getting arrested for something or other. Shall I continue with the stupid comments?
YEAH, and everyone know about truck drivers. They all drive down the road at 90 mph daring you to get in their way while the read porno mags and take NoDoz to stay awake. :icon_cheesygrin:
Sorry Martin, I just had to say it. It was laying there begging me to pick it up.
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Rocky,
No, .... it hasn't changed to any noticeable degree, except for the teeth that is!! ...haha!!! You know, that many of the problems of the brown to yellowish stains on their teeth were cause by them being given the then new Tetracycline antibiotic before the age of 7 or so. It permanently stains the enamel of growing teeth and in many cases severely weakened it. Coupled with there love of sweet things (like sugar cane) and it was a real big problem...lol!!!
But your right, they are you describe, and just as family originated as the Chinese ladies. In fact that is basically the norm for all of South East Asian ladies...
David....
Don't think that this is just a poor country problem with tetracycline. I too suffer from this terrible problem. As a young child I had major ear infections and was given long treatments that have left me fighting a never ending battle with dental work...and major expenses!
In the past 5 years alone I have doled out over $15,000 in dental work and what pisses me off to no end is that here in the US...its considered all "cosmetic" and IS NOT COVERED BY INSURANCE!!!
To be honest one thing that I was considering having done in China are implants which would run me about $28,000 here in the States. Much more than I am willing to pay.
Seems every country has its issues, and while China may have its pollution problems...it looks like we will have a new national oil reserve when all the water in the gulf of Mexico is replaced with oil leaking from an offshore well that appears to have been made and operated to substandard methods...Due to Corruption, Payoffs, lax regulations and any number of what I have read about China. Big industry destroys on ALL continents.
I was actually impressed to read an article about how Guangzhou (fairly sure it was there?) converted all public transportation to LPG from diesel fuel to reduce pollution in only 3 years!!...Here in the states politicians would spend that long eliciting bribes...I mean lobbying money before even making a plan that would still take 5 more years to implement and it would have a cost overrun of double the estimate.
My attitude is that I really don't care about politics, but results. Given the massive growth of China its actually amazing the entire country is not toxic to the core. And while some here may not know this, a river actually caught fire from pollution about 25 years ago. So every industrial has its pollution issues and I am sure that in time China will learn to deal with them.
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Lain,
Yes, ....It was an unknown side affect of this antibiotic at that time, in fact it wasn't realised for a number of years after it's worldwide introduction. It was a very affective antibiotic at the time, with very few known side affects, unfortunately not so good for children's teeth under the age of 7 or so.
The pollution problem in China is basically the result of an uncaring local and national government coupled with ignorance and more recently to widespread corruption and casting a blind eye to problems that are going to cost serious, serious money to put anywhere near right.
It will eventually improve substantially, but i very much doubt in our lifetimes, and the cost will just keep rising. They say that if they were to stop everything right now, and just concentrate on cleaning up the existing pollution. it will take at least 10 years and leave China virtually bankrupt with more loans than any nation on earth. The problem is enormous, and every province is affected.
How many of Chinas massive population dies as a direct result of this pollution will probably never be known but i wouldn't mind betting, that you can count them in the hundreds of thousands to even millions on a yearly basis.....
David......
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its widespread here (pollution) and probably wont get better anytime soon
but it doesnt seem to bother anyone here that i have noticed. never been to
Bejing in all these years coming here but from what i understand that is the
worst as far as China cities
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...but it doesnt seem to bother anyone here that i have noticed.
My wife is often telling me that one of the things she looks forward to coming to Canada, is the clean air. They probably don't complain about it, because they have nothing to compare it to.
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good point i guess they really dont have any thing to compare to :icon_cheesygrin:
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Martin ,Ted...
Even if they did have somewhere they could compare it too, Who are they going to complain to, ....The local government, the National government?? The truth is, ....they are stuck with the pollution for a very long time to come, and they know it all to well. It's one of the reasons they are so obsessed with staying healthy, to give themselves a fighting chance...
David.......
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1.4 billion people could make a lot of changes if they wanted to just hope it never comes to that
or at least i dont want to be here living if it happens
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Ted,
In maybe 50 years, possibly sooner, China will not be a Communist State. It will go the same way as Russia, and the former Eastern Block States. The problem then being, if you think China has a bad corruption problem now, just wait till they don't have a hard line Communist Government to keep things, ....let's say controlled!!!
The people there really do have a lot to worry about at the collapse of the present government system, you just have to multiply what's going on in Russia and it's ex satellite states since their collapse of Communism, to see what will happen, ....then magnify it exponentially!!!!!
David.......
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good point
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Martin and Ted,
National Geographic has done several articles on china in the past several months and one was on the pollution problem they are having. They do mention that the people know that there is a problem and they want it addressed now before it is too late. I think it also talks about the number of offspring each couple needs to have in a society for a society to sustain itself. (2.7 if I remember correctly) Their current policy of 1 child will not sustain their society. (I think this is for the Han chinese though?) I will try to find the issues and tell you which ones they are. But this is going way off thread here.
Dave C
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Martin and Ted,
National Geographic has done several articles on china in the past several months and one was on the pollution problem they are having. They do mention that the people know that there is a problem and they want it addressed now before it is too late. I think it also talks about the number of offspring each couple needs to have in a society for a society to sustain itself. (2.7 if I remember correctly) Their current policy of 1 child will not sustain their society. (I think this is for the Han chinese though?) I will try to find the issues and tell you which ones they are. But this is going way off thread here.
Dave C
Most sociologists/demographers state that a society needs to have the couple have 2.1-2.3 childern each to maintain the current population level in genera. The extra 0.1-0.3 is to make up for early deaths or those that dont/cant have childern. In Chin a the 1 child policy is being relaxed for rural families and was never strictly enforced for minority gr oups. Of course intermarriage between minority gorups and han Chinese is a policy that China has encouraged for generations (long before the Communists took power)
Most east asian countries are below that level currently. China mostly due to the one child policy, SK and Japan out of choice by the people. Those three countries are the fast aging countries in the world (Italy might be ahead but I cant remember for sure)
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.
Well, ...If were going on to population levels and birth rates, there are opinions on both sides of the arguement. The other side of things is that, they argue that the present population is already too high and would benifit from an overall reduction. Some of the arguements for this is that there is already a situation where there are not enough jobs to go round. This can be seen every year as the collage students graduate but few ever manage to find work placements in the subjects that they read, and often have to take on meanial low paid work. Another is that of the huge migration from rural provinces to the bigger cities just to find some sort of work to help support the families needs.
I guess what these others are saying is that if the population at the present is too large, why do we want to sustain that large population, let alone increase it.
Many people here know what i think of reports/studies and surveys, .... and basically this is what were talking about here, ....studies suggesting that they need to sustain or increase the population in the future. ....Now, how many population studies have ever been anywhere near correct??? Few to none is the answer, so why would they want to risk increasing what is already an enormous population?? So i can see that the other side of the arguement has some valid points too....
David.....
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.
Well, ...If were going on to population levels and birth rates, there are opinions on both sides of the arguement. The other side of things is that, they argue that the present population is already too high and would benifit from an overall reduction. Some of the arguements for this is that there is already a situation where there are not enough jobs to go round. This can be seen every year as the collage students graduate but few ever manage to find work placements in the subjects that they read, and often have to take on meanial low paid work. Another is that of the huge migration from rural provinces to the bigger cities just to find some sort of work to help support the families needs.
I guess what these others are saying is that if the population at the present is too large, why do we want to sustain that large population, let alone increase it.
Many people here know what i think of reports/studies and surveys, .... and basically this is what were talking about here, ....studies suggesting that they need to sustain or increase the population in the future. ....Now, how many population studies have ever been anywhere near correct??? Few to none is the answer, so why would they want to risk increasing what is already an enormous population?? So i can see that the other side of the arguement has some valid points too....
David.....
Personally I think the worlds population is too high, but that the one child policy is going to give China some sociological problems when the One child has two parents to support during their retirement
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The population of the world is not too large. Europe and Asian populations are that way. They are landlocked. For the life of me I do not understand why it is so difficult to get people out of China and into another nation. All I want is 1 woman. Of course if it were easy there would be hundreds of thousands western women living constantly on the rag.
Dang you should hear them talk behind my back. It cracks me up. There must be a western female lobby in DC doing what they can to prevent Chinese women from coming to the US. It is kind of like my ex. She wants happiness but doesn't want to do anything to get it. A welfare mentality. I deserve it now give it to me attitude. %@()^&@*)#$*%&@&^*%@#
OK... I'm done... I feel much better now... With one exception. My woman is still in China... :dodgy:
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Well off thread now!! Lead by whom?
Not me.:angel:
Willy
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Lain,
when you get to GZ do not and i stress DO NOT accept a ride and offer of a cheap but nice hotel
from the people gawking around. have your hotel set up and ready when you get here. at that time of night
your taxi ride into town should be no more than 120 rmb and they do have the buses to hotels also around
19 rmb each way.
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Thanks for the heads up...some last minute changes have been made to my trip and I will now be spending my entire trip in Zhongshan.
While I filed a complain with chnlove, I am going to follow through with my plans and give them the benefit of the doubt as to the entire situation. It may just be a complete misunderstanding? Or I may find that I was taken for a ride...who knows? But I do know one thing that I have mentioned already. I really do like this lady if she has represented herself as she really is in person and I would be a fool to not at very least give it a chance. In reality I have nothing to lose since I am going there already, but everything to gain if it works out.
So by Thursday night I will be in Zhongshan China and if the rainy weather lets up some it should be a great experience. :)
Any members here live in Zhongshan?...PM me to get my contact information and where I will be staying. I will need to have a translator for a day, maybe 2 for a non-relationship reason who can assist me with completing some paperwork. If any members here can assist me, I will pay you for your services.
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Good luck Lain.I hope it works out for you.