China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => Ask An Experienced Member => Topic started by: David5o on June 01, 2010, 02:49:27 pm
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What Shaun was saying is ''Right'' in a round about sort of way!!! haha!!!
The fact is, the Average monthly salary in China is around a 1000RMB, This neighbour was trying for 1200RMB for just a few hours of her time, ...in other words trying to take advantage!!!
You cannot, in any circumstances compare prices for services in your countries, to those in China, ...It's a totally irrelevant comparison. What is cheap to you, is not cheap in China. I sometimes think that you all forget why our countries ARE expensive, compared to many Asian countries, .......''Everything'' is Taxed up to the Hilt, which means our salaries have to be higher to pay for them!!!! ...haha!!! Now check what sort of taxes the Chinese have to pay?? ....Compared to the west, it's next to nothing!!!
David.....
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here in Guangzhou the local govt just raised the living wage which you would say is the equivalant
of our minimum wage to 2800 rmb. so people working here get at least that much each month.
would be interested in knowing if other larger cities do this in China
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Ted,
You actually believe that do you ?? Like every employer is going to raise there workers salary by almost 200%!!!!
Have the Restaurants put there prices up 200%, the factories put up the cost of there goods by 200%, Hotel room costs gone up 200 %??..... To name just a few!! ...No i didn't think so either!! ...hahaha!!!
David.....
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well the living wage here in GZ has been higher than throughout most parts of China and yes it did
go into effect from 2200 to 2800 and this is for companies that operate here not restuarants so if
your working in an office setting then thats what you get.
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I think you both wrong, the average monthly salary never could be 1000RMB, the minimum wage in Guangzhou is 1100RMB,
it is latest updated 2010. Still, the level varies among different cities. In canton fair, a translator can make RMB200 to RMB400
per day if she/he helps the Chinese exhibiter. If you works for the foreign buyer, the price is RMB400 to RMB800 one day. In fact,
this price is just for part time college students. I hope this info could help 8)
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Peggy tells me that a person needs about 3000RMB a month if the own a home to live comfortably in Shenzhen. She rents a 1 bedroom loft from her sister.
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Ted, Alex,
If you read my post carefully, i stated ''Average'' not ''Minimum. And that, .... i still stand by for the average Chinese workers in an Chinese average family anywhere in China...
Ted,
How can anyone call what you have described above as the ''New living wage'' ?? (our minimum wage) If that's what a Chinese worker needs as a minimum to live, then that's what EVERYBODY needs to live, not just office workers.
Nothing is going to change too fast in China, if it did, it would be ruin for the Chinese export market, Which is why all these western companies have set-up factories etc , or are buying Chinese goods and components to sell under there own named brands.
Anyway, what i posted here on June 02 is, as far as i'm concerned valid/correct....
David....
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I think that this has to be broken down by region & employment classification ... and the underground economy has to be consider also.
The standard and cost of living in Beijing/Shanghai is different from Guangzhou/Shenzhen and completely different than here in Kaiping/Taishan.
As families consolidate their living arrangements, the actual salary [ whatever amount it is ] needed is more than enough. Chinese have a high rate of personal bank savings. Older Kaiping residents always brought real estate with cash. Only recently have the banks started offering mortgages ... no doubt catering to the up and coming younger generation who's broke. They spend more than they make or the equivalent of what they earn.
The underground economy ... in Kaiping ... is huge both positively and negatively. Entreprenneurs are wealthly especially the food industry. There's lots of undeclared income. On the other hand, they employed many by paying under the table at low wages. The supply of labour is greater than the demand. Obviously, these people are making nowhere the figures stated above. Many other businesspeople's income are supplemented by bribery handouts ... government employees included in this group also.
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Yes I agree, the situation could be very different. I suppose some of you knew Foxconn, where there are successive suicides that shocked China. After the tragedy happended, the ''Minimum monthly salary has increased to 1300RMB. Yet in some rual areas, the average could be RMB1000 as David said. But 1300RMB in Shenzhen could not maintain a life as good as several hundreds in rural areas.
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1100RMB was the base wage at the Foxconn factory. It does not housing (included), food (included), and entertainment (included). Plus you make a lot more in bonuses/overtime.
And there was only 16 suicides this year at Foxconn in Shen Shen, which is not that many.
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And there was only 16 suicides this year at Foxconn in Shen Shen, which is not that many.
Hah ... I think "One" suicide is too many.
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Yes Chong, I know what you mean. But the reason I said its not that bad is this:
The suicide rate for China is 14 per 100,000 (look it up anywhere). The SZ Foxconn factory employs in the range of 450,000 people. So roughly you're gonna hit about 63 suicides a year. So 16 in about half a year is actually "under-performing".
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I think this would be one of the times I would accept under performance. I wonder if Katie Couric (another western claw digging female) is doing the reporting from there. It has that all too familiar spin about it being the businesses fault rather than what happens in a segment of people.
It is very sad that anyone commits suicide.
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Chong has it right, and hit the head of the nail with the hammer!!! This is exactly how the Chinese economy and life as a whole works in China for the majority of it's population.
It's no good coming out here and saying, that there is a minimum wage system working in China, because there just isn't !!! And i don't really care what Province or City your talking about, there will ALWAYS be far too many that earn nowhere near any of the figures that are being quoted in this thread.
As Chong, has stated, families will have to combine there earnings to enable them to have a decent roof over there heads and enough food for there needs. They will only buy luxury goods by saving a little each month to pay for them. By the way, anything to do with TVs, don't seem to come under luxury goods in China, ...to them it's an absolute necessity for all families, even rural families!! ...haha!!
As a footnote, .... Several Chinese workers , male and female, will have two jobs going at any one time. If they manage to make 1200 RMB from those two jobs a month, they will think there doing rather well....
David....
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I and not sure I understand everything with this issue. I get somewhat of a different story from Peggy. She tells me 3000RMB in Shenzhen. I will be helping her move to Shaoguan while I am there and she tells me that it will const 2000RMB to live there. So am I to assume that she is trying to live on a higher standard than the local economy?
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Shaun, both of our girls are living in Shenzhen right now. My wife says her monthly expensis are about 3,500 rmb. She does have her son living with her in a two bedroom place so it seems on par with Peggy's amount.
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This issue is interesting to say the least. Just for the hell of it I converted my pension I get every month. Approximately $1650 CAD converts to 10,750 rmb per month. I am guessing that I could live like a king if I moved to China. Like an emperor if I live in a rural area. I have raised chickens before.
Different regions in any countrys' economy will have different levels of standards of living and you will have to earn different wage levels to maintain the standard of living for the respective area. I think Ted was just stating what the minimum wage was increased to in Guangzhou, not the whole of China. If people actually get paid this may be a different story. Sometimes there is a big difference between the official standard and what is the real standard.
David5o,
The last woman I was chatting with on QQ worked at an insurance firm in Huizhou.(I think that is how it is spelled) She was going to quit that job for a better paying job she could get. She told me she was making around 1100 RMB per month with the insurance firm. She said she only had the one job. This is just what she had told me. It did not look like she had an extravagant lifestyle either. We did have a couple web cam sessions and she did show me some of her apartment. This new woman I have started chatting with is an accountant for a company and she lives in Guangzhou. My curiousity is now raised.
On another note I did read an article on the changes going on in China. It said that Shenzhen was a quaint little fishing village only a couple decades ago. I will have to find it and quote it. I think it was National Geographic.
Dave C
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Dave C,
Shenzhen back in the 1980 was a quaint little fishing town. China began pumping millions of dollars into the area to make it the main shipping port for China. Most all of the buildings are less than 30 years old. When I was there in April the one Peggy lives in was in the beginning process of getting a facelift. It need a complete re-doing. It is less than 20 years old and with the least amount of effort I twisted off a valve from the main coming into her home. Left the threads in the main. Hard to hire a plumber to come in and fix it because I did not have the tools to do it. It only cost 30RMB.
The story I told you about the quaint village came from the interpreter I used basically started this thread because she wanted 1200RMB for about 12 hours of work, plus meals.
Ron, thanks for the info. I was beginning to wonder.
Shaun
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Rhonald,
Your wife must be living in quite a new and smart apartment for her to need that amount to live for a month, or she is used to and so living a higher standard of living than, .....let's say the average worker.
I'm taking it that her son is working also, is she combining salaries here??
David....
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Shaun the Chinese call it a special economics zone.The Chinese government in 1976 started pumping money and resources.And opened up Guangdong province to foreign investments Zhuhai Shenzhen were both small fishing villages.Shenzhen now has a population of over 5 million and Zhuhai has a population of over 3 million.
There is other special economics zones in China.But I cant remember where there at right now.I think Beijing and Shanghai fall in to the same category
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Maxx, Thanks. When I was there in April Shenzhen had crossed the 13,000,000 mark. I don't know how they derived that figure but their web site says 8.7 million. needless today it is very large and is suffering from the growth rate when you look at a lot of the buildings and their condition.
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Wow it has grown allot.The last time I was in Shenzhen.It was five or six million.That was in May of 2006.Yes most of China the building are in bad shape.The farther you get into China.The worse it gets.I have ben to some towns and some of the villages.You would think a bomb went off in the center of town.And nobody bothered to clean the mess up.
GZ,Zhuhai,Beijing,All look good.Zhongshan the part I went to was really run down.And the parts of Jiangxi province.That I seen was run down.I don't think it would be so bad.If China enforced it's building codes.The buildings would probably wear allot better.What really bothers me.Is the Chinese build great buildings.Monuments,And parks.But after they build it there done with it.It looks like to me that thiere is no ongoing up keep.
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Maxx, Shaun,
That is some city growth!! Almost tripple the population in less than 4 years!! Wow! I did not think it had grown that much that fast. :o :o
Dave C
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David50 I got this from the following link: http://www.startinchina.com/shenzhen/life/cost_of_living_in_shenzhen.html (http://www.startinchina.com/shenzhen/life/cost_of_living_in_shenzhen.html)
Cost of living in Shenzhen
Shenzhen is one of the most expensive cities to live in China, but still relatively cheap compared to most Western major cities.To give you an indication of how much things cost, I collected some prices. I'm sure prices will vary a bit depending on where you buy and which brand you buy, but this should give you a good indication. I rarely eat in Western restaurants and have adopted a Chinese eating pattern. If you enjoy Western restaurants, you obviously will spend more. Living costs are relatively most expensive, house prices came down in 2008, but have risen a lot again and buying a house in a good location in Shenzhen is expensive.
The areas near the border with HongKong (traditionally Futian and Luohu, but now also increasingly Nanshan) are a bit more expensive to live. Living in the center also has other benefits, for example closer to library, more shopping malls, more restaurants etc. Bao'an is currently fast expanding and when the subway finishes in 2011, Bao'an will be more convenient to live as well. Whenever you go to Bao'an (where the airport is) you definitely feel that it's further away from the center: less high buildings, broader roads, less people.
Compared to the Netherlands, Shenzhen is still much cheaper to live. Especially eating in restaurants in much cheaper. House prices had gone up a lot and were approaching Dutch levels, but have since dropped off quite a lot; since the start of 2009 they are rising again. Never trust prices you see advertised online, but come here and look around. Because house prices dropped so much, it's now easy to find a place to rent. Also realize that 100m2 is already quite big in China and it should cost below 5000Y/month. (I sometimes see advertisements targeted at foreigners asking ridiculous prices -be warned and just look around and bargain).
According to Mercer's 2009 survey of living costs Shenzhen is now 22nd on the list of most expensive cities in the world for expats! Mercer's Cost of Living survey covers 143 cities across six continents and measures the comparative cost of over 200 items in each location, including housing, transport, food, clothing, household goods and entertainment.
Just like salaries, the prices for renting an apartment vary hugely. You can go from 1500RMB/month for a cheap community, where normal Chinese people live to extremely luxurious which are twenty times as much ! Also be aware that the English-language classifieds are usually not the cheapest. Best option is just to look around while you are in the city and go to some Chinese real estate companies. Prices have dropped a lot in 2008, but have been rising since the start of 2009 again. Some examples of expensive apartments on offer at ShenzhenParty :
Location Size (m2)
Description price RMB /month
Futian CBD 109
3 bedrooms (one master bedroom), 2 bathes, 1 large living room & 1 dining room 8.500
Futian Honey Lake 200 3 bedrooms, 1 study room, 1 living room, 1 dining room, 1 kitchen, 1 balcony. 30.000
Futian, near to Co-co park 151 3 bedrooms ,and 2 bathrooom, fully furnished and equiped 12.000
Futian Che Gong Miao Metro Station 116
2 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, 1 study room, 1 living room, 1 dining room, 1 kitchen 8.000
Luohu center,beside Diwang mansion 63 1 livingroom,1 big bedroom,1 kitchen,1 washroom 5.500
Luohu KingGlory plaza 42 2.000
Nanshan Coastal rose garden 127 3 bedrooms 2 bath 5.900
Nanshan/Shekou Sea Taste Garden 78 2 bdrooms, 1 bath , 1 nice kitchen , 2balcony , 1 living rooms 3.800
As you can see, 2000 is about the minimum you pay in reasonable locations. You can go lower by looking around in the city. It's easy to spend over 8000RMB/month for big apartments.
update december 2009:
Question (from a visitor to my website) :
"My company is considering opening an office in China. I ran across your website while doing a search on living in Shenzhen. I was surprised to read that the cost of living in Shenzhen was so high! Based on your experience, do you think that Shenzhen is a good place for western technical companies to relocate? How do you think westerners fare in Shenzhen? Do they integrate into the culture?"
Answer:
There is a saying in Chinese:
"You think you're brave until you go to Manchuria, you think you're well read until you reach Beijing and you think you're rich until you set foot in Shenzhen".
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Because of the wide gap in China's income classes, I don't think 'average' figures are fair indicators of the country as a whole.
Here in Kaiping, my wife used to earn 2,000 RMB as an accountant. Her sister earns 3,000 RMB as a mid-level manager of a baby food company; her husband earns 7,000 RMB as a computer data maintenance person. That's 10,000 RMB in that household. Their monthly expenses runs about 3,500 RMB minimum ... sometimes more [ the have a 2 year old ].
On the other hand, a waiter makes 1,000 RMB. A 5 star hotel restaurant manager makes 5,000 RMB. It wouldn't be fair to say that the average salary in a restaurant is 3,000 RMB.
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I always think Rhonald is very knowledgeable and open-minded ;D
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i would say his post are very informative at times and good posts
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Rhonald,
I can see what your saying here, and see the point your making.
But the point that i've been trying to get over is that there are far more poorer, or lower income Chinese families than there are, ...let's say lower middle class. So it doesn't really matter what city we are talking about, there will always be a majority of those that do not earn the sort of money, that has been quoted in your post or any of the others on this thread....
You must know by now, that i have an inherent distrust for surveys and statistic reports, they can, and more often do, say anything the authour wants them to say!!!
I don't think that the information being given in your link was, or had anything to do with the local Chinese population and there needs, but rather for the local expat community, and wow!! what a difference there is between those two communities...
As Chong has just posted, ...because of the wide gap in income classes, it becomes very difficult to make out a meaningful ''Average'' income, in any city in China. Which is why, when i have posted ''Average incomes'' on this and other threads, i've tried to point out these are among the lower levels of income earners. I'm not including any black market income, as that again is difficult to assess, though there are many gaining such incomes from such sources, and will raise the families monthly incomes...
As regards to the cost of housing, this totally depends on the families income as to what they can and cannot afford. One things for certain, there are very, very few that could afford 8.000RMB a month for renting an apartment. Even most well off middle class Chinese families would bulk at that figure!!
Most of the older buildings apartments and even a good number of the newer apartment blocks will consist of apartments in the 40+ to 60 sqm range. There are of course older and newer blocks with apartments in the 70+ to 100+ and even larger sqm range. You will find that most Chinese families will be living in the that lower range of sq meterage
Perhaps Chong could give us some idea of how much his wife's sisters family, spends on their accommodation needs as a 10,000 RMB a month family. Though i suspect that they are paying off a mortgage rather than paying a rent. But it would still give some useful information on living costs from this standard of family and how that relates to the lower income families.
It's unfortunate that there are so many of these low wage earners in China, but while there are more workers than there are good jobs that pay a decent wage, the present status quo will continue for a good while yet i'm afraid!!!
David....
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Well David50,
I can not remember the exact break down my wife gave me when she told me her budget needs. I do remember her saying she spends between 3500 to 4000 rmb a month. If memory serves me right, she did say her place 80m2 cost her 2000 rmb a month but she also says that she owns. She only moved into it in November 2009 so a long way to go before it is payed off. Once she moves to Canada she does not want to sell right away because a new subway is being made near her place and she rather wait until then since she expects the market value to increase.
Her son will be 16 next month and provides to the family coffers by sitting all day in front of the electronic video/audio abacus. So it is just her earning the money. But I will say that food is cheap, but sometimes while she is picking me up in Hong Kong, she will go out to buy certain produce because she says it is cheaper in Hong Kong.
I have now been to China 5 times, although it does not make me an expert about all of China, I have always tried to pay attention to the economic situation of the cities I have visited. Every time I walk by a Rentail agency I stop and look at the prices offered. I look at the display at supper markets for produce. And so far as the link I posted, it seems to follow along with my eye witness account. The one thing that is not freely given to me when meeting her friends, or even when I ask her, is the income they make.
The little time I spent in Kaiping leads me to believe as you and Chong have stated is the wide range of income needed to live comfortably in different cities. If I had to give a rough and ready litmus test to city prices, maybe just the price set once a taxi is entered is a good gauge. The pricer the city, the higer the base fare rate is. Also the lower standard of the city, the more often you will see motorcycles and biycles being used in place of taxis.
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Rhonald,
Well, 2,000 RMB is quite an amount of money out of a single persons salary, so she must have a good paying job. ....and Oh!! to being a teenager again, with not a care in the world, ...well maybe those Zits are a bit of a problem!!! ...hahaha!!!
Lucy has a sister, and her daughter graduated last year, and got herself a job in Beijing. Her sister found a small apartment for her in Beijing. The daughters salary, working for a big Japanese company was 1250 rmb per month and the apartment (shared with a friend) 850ish RMB a month, ...everyone's happy!!! lol!!!
But!!... the daughter is very much the Chinese Princess, and moved to an apartment costing 2000RMB a month within 6 weeks!!! ...Guess who's now paying the difference?? haha!!
Ron, the rental agencies that you have seen are not where the lower wage earning family will look to find an apartment to rent. That is one of the black market sources of income i talked about above, it's all done by word of mouth and who you know.
Yes to a certain degree you are right about taxi fares and the like, but it's not going to tell you much about the family income, just that it is probably going to be lower rather than higher!!
One thing that i found while living in China, was that if the person was proud of his job and/or had a decent income from that job, it was hard for them ''not'' to tell you what he was earning, ...actually boasting!! ...Now how true these boastings were ...is another matter!! ....haha!!!
David....
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My sister-in-law and her husband has no mortgage. Like many families here, her husband's family helped with the purchase of their apartment.
Monthly Expenses that I know of ...
500 RMB for household fixed costs [ telephone, electricity, water ]
500 RMB for household fixed costs [ for her parents' place ]
2,500 RMB for food
They're not big spenders but cost of living adds up. They also have a 2 year old son.
David has it right that there are more poorer people than middle class. The gap is even getting bigger. In Kaiping, a typical villager grows his/her vegetables and sells the excess amount on the street markets for spending money. Every unused plot of land is utilized by a vegetable garden. The single thing I admire about the Chinese is that they enjoy whatever life they have despite their income level. They always have plenty of food on the table and are very warm hosts. Other than a television, mah jong tiles & playing cards, they have no need for anything else to occupy their leisure time. Westerners may make more money but they spend more and are probably unhappier because most want to keep up with the Joneses. The credit/debt system will be the doom of the next generation of Chineses.
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Chong ,
thats a good observation on your part about the credit/debt of the younger generation. i see that here quite often when i am at
a store. the person pulls out their wallet and you see the credit slots filled with cards. reminds me of my freinds in usa and a few
other parts of the world who seem to live on their cards
Ted
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All this money talk. I suppose I will have to up my wifes housekeeping.
Perhaps I will go as high as 2000 a month, but only if she pays the rent as well. And then only if she promises to give me back any change.
Who said two can live as cheaply as one? Here 5 can live as cheaply as one.
Willyu
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Sorry for my ignorance on this whole subject but it is very interesting. I am working my self in the dirt here to have an extra money in saving when I go to teach. At least an extra 5000 rmb a month. With the teaching salary of 5000 rmb. This is is Chonqing so no idea the average salary range there.