China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => The Campfire => Topic started by: Bee964 on December 05, 2010, 09:25:02 am
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I don't know if anybody will be interested in this but I thought I would start an astronomy thread. I have been interested in it since I was 12 years old. I went to the University of Michigan observatory with my parents and some friends. There wasa lot of cloud cover that night but we had some breaaks to allow us to have some observing.
Anyways, here is a link to some pictures to get it started.
http://sync.sympatico.ca/News/Articles/NASAs-WISE-Mission-Releases-Medley-of-First-Images.htm?feedname=TECH-WISE-FIRST-IMAGES&pos=1&nolookup=true (http://sync.sympatico.ca/News/Articles/NASAs-WISE-Mission-Releases-Medley-of-First-Images.htm?feedname=TECH-WISE-FIRST-IMAGES&pos=1&nolookup=true)
Dave C
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Funny I was just thinking about getting a telescope just a minute ago. I was wondering where to find one around here and not the toy you find in Walmart and other stores.
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I also received my first Telescope in New York back in "70 . Was very much interested in it . I must have known about 200 Stars by Name and all the constellations of course . I still teach Qing , whenever we sit in our Spa and look up at the Sky . It does make us look pretty small , looking way out there . I had a four inch Refractor Telescope and even took many Photo's of the Sky with it . For years , I kept track of all the Sunspots and recorded them in my Book . But since I got married the first time ... there it went bye bye . ???
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Vince,
Check out the astronomy magazines. There are lots of ads for telescopes in them. Lots of shops in NY and Florida.
Arnold,
About 10 years ago I built a barn door tracker. I have taken a lot of astro photos with it and had a great time doing so. I will scan some and put them up here.
Dave C
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This side of Florida is a crazy place. Anything I want to buy they don't have it. Plenty of stores full of nothing. Start with a bow (as in bow and arrow). Only one place has any (I think haven't been there yet) and I'm hoping they have telescopes too? It's a half hr ride from here. You can go to a pawn shop and buy a gun but I know of no gun shops around here. I went to one on the west coast (of Florida) but not here? Yesterday I bought a new GPS Navigator. Guess what no one had it anywhere even thou Walmart and Sears are suppose to have it. I buy just about everything online now.
So I've checked them out online (telescopes). I don't want to get crazy ($) with it just something good I can use once in a while.
Maybe I'll wait till I go up north in a few weeks? Speaking of up north (Arnold you might relate to this), I was up in Lake Placid around the 1980 games there and on the way back I had to make a pit stop. I got out of the car and while standing there I looked up and my jaw dropped from being up in the mountains in darkness all around I never saw so many stars ever. Down here we have the meteor shower every year but it past already this year. Well d'ah it's the end of the year...
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I use to drive to Albuquerque none-stop many time from LA and always through night time . So in the Desert at night ... man I tell you , I've never again seen the Milkyway so clear . One could almost touch it ::) . I have Visited every Observatory here in Calif . to see them big Scopes . Like I said , I was really in to it then .
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I believe that there are other life forms out there in outer space. Will they ever visit us ... or ... have they visited already ?
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I believe that there are other life forms out there in outer space. Will they ever visit us ... or ... have they visited already ?
When I look into the Mirror , I think their here already ! :-\
I also believe in this huge Universe there must be something out there , what ? I don't think we'll ever know .. unless they come to us . If they do , we really must look pretty dumb to them .. can't even get out of our own Solar System .
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There are two TV shows about them coming. One is they have been amongst us for 60 years, the other they just showed up.
The possibility of other life forms being out there is real high. Just a wonder what they are like? Somewhere way way back in time the form of having two eyes one nose, etc on this planet happened but this doesn't mean it happened in any other life form out there?
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You guys should watch "Men In Black"
I love those shows.
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I think its a safe bet that life exists throughout the Universe, the numbers of stars are so huge, therefore the number of Planetary systems must also be very large.
Statistically, it is virtually certain that life has evolved freely within the Universe.
What is less certain is whether we will ever meet or communicate with any other "intelligent" life forms. The distances and therefore times are vast...the nearest star is over 2 light years away, a distance that is mind blowing...a round trip at the speed of light will take about 5 years...and how it is possible to travel that fast is beyond our current understanding. And so many stars are in the hundreds, thousands and millions of light-years away.....communication over these distances is incomprehensible....unless we can travel much faster then light, or can work out how to travel through time !!
In any event, we dont know whether life is a fleeting occurrence within a brief moment of astronomical time, or is it a robust, long term state. Considering the age of the Universe at about 9 Billion Years and the age of intelligent humanity at about 1000 years...we aint been around long, and we may not last !!!
Much theoretical work has been done by Hawkins, Bodanis and Graham Greene to prove mathematically that time travel is possible...and who knows if they are right, their Science is way beyond my comprehension.
But here's a thought that will cause some head-scratching...........(when I read about it, I was very convinced)...it refers to ghosts and stuff like that.
Suppose, some time in the waaaaay distant future, somebody perfected the science of time travel......and it became possible and easy. Maybe with the exponential advances we see in science, this theory is reasonably valid...imagine where the human race will be in 1 million years time...(assuming we dont blow ourselves up, or pollute the Planet into non-existence).
If then, we can have time travel in the future, we might decide to go for a holiday in the past, to have a look at what life was like then ?? BUT, when we go on this holiday we MUST NOT touch any thing or interfere physically with the past because of "Chronoclasms"....if someone from the future came here and killed their father, they would not exist in the future (get the drift ??)
Even to the point that if you came from the future and killed a single bacteria, the consequences may well be the utter change to your world in the future...thus chronoclasms cannot happen...because you came from the future anyway...have you got a headache yet, just thinking about this !!!
So....assuming that time travel is possible, and assuming people do it, and assuming that they can NEVER actually touch or interact with the past...the theory says that ghosts are the vague signs that time travellers are passing through our world..........without harming the future with a physical presence......
Spooky ;D ;D ;D
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David , I've spend Hours many times just thinking about what you have just said . But it comes always back to .. what am I going to get out of this anyway ? Let other's break their Head over it and why look at something that will never be in our Lifetime . I tell you what though , if I could Travel as a Ghost some day .. I'd love to check out OUR Future of Mankind for sure .. a few thousand years from now . It is after all very exciding/interesting what happens after we're gone .
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Aaaaah Vince !!!, now you've got me going !!!!
What would other "intelligent beings look like.......wherever they may be in this vast Universe
If you go down the Creationist track....they MUST all look like us !!!
Because...there is only ONE God, and he made mankind (wherever "mankind" exists)...in his own image. There is only One God, we look like him, thus all intelligent life must look like this. A bit boring, but thats the rules.
If, on the other hand, you go down the Darwinism track, then any life must evolve over time to produce the best model for the environment they evolve in......
Who knows what subtle and different evolutionary pressures there are on life forms in other solar systems. Thus they may well have evolved entirely different forms that us.
Having said that, there is a good case to be made out that we would all share SOME similarities......
ie, 2 eyes is good...stereoscopic vision, judgement of distance etc. Where these eyes must be on the body is less certain, but high up would be good, so you can better see who is coming to eat you !!! Maybe the optimum would be eyes on stalks ?? who knows.
Bipedal stance would be good too. Higher brain function lead to tool making and thus hands are needed, also legs are useful with which to get about !
Two legs, three legs or what ?? The theory of evolutionary redundancy suggets that 2 legs are best...too much useful brain power is wasted trying to control say 4 legs, 4 hands and 6 eyes !!!
Higher brain function, hands, etc lead to faster evolution because we can do stuff...ever tried to get a horse to fix your carburettor ???
Arnold...I fully agree with you, this theorising serves very little useful purpose...except that it excercises the brain and is interesting to try to understand...thats what makes us unique...we need to learn.
After we have gone ???...no such animal !! We never go. Again, the theory of conservation of Matter (Newton Physics) suggests that the matter of which we are made can never be destroyed, we simply go back into the Universe. The theory of conservation of energy says the same, so our energy (spirit ??) is free to roam the Universe forever
The theory is known as "Caesars last breath".....Caesars last breath contained roughly the same number of molecules as there are people on the Planet. So these molecules did not disappear, they just went back into circulation...it is a good statistical bet that your (and mine) body can contain one molecule from Caesars last breath !!
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Here's another thought, what does infinity / "end of space" look like ?
and
If the universe is constantly expanding, what does it see AHEAD of itself ? ... and does "AHEAD OF ITSELF" have an end ?
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The theory is known as "Caesars last breath".....Caesars last breath contained roughly the same number of molecules as there are people on the Planet. So these molecules did not disappear, they just went back into circulation...it is a good statistical bet that your (and mine) body can contain one molecule from Caesars last breath !!
What about reincarnation ?
Family genes are passed through generations. Is it possible that your great grandfather's biological genes & spirit is reincarnated in your body [ assuming his genes are the dominant sub-gene of your total genes ] ??
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Chong
Infinity is just that...infinite, never ending...period !!
We are finite beings who cannot possibly grasp the idea of infinite. But there cannot be an end to infinity.....
Same as Universe expansion......it expands infinitely...forever
Now I've got a headache thinking about it.
For me personally, I am quite prepared to believe that the molecular make up of ME contains both some of the molecules and energy of my forefathers and others
I believe that I am, in part a recycled model of all those who have gone before me.
I have no exact knowlege as to who they were, nor do I need to know.
I am a child of the Universe...complete unto myself (if you know your Desiderata !!)
For me personally this is a magic and beautiful concept and I guess I could call this my personal religion...but thats another story !!!
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Well , actually the Universe is slowing down in it's expansion .. therefore it will STOP at some point and Gravity from the Core itself will slowly reverse the Course and pull it all back again . This means after some more Billion years it will under this pressure .. explode all over again and expand ones more . Mankind would NOT live through such an Event for sure .
Around and around we go !
Ohhh my Head .
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Woooo Arnold...now we are stepping deep into Cosmology theory !!!!!!
2 schools of thought prevail........
1) The "big bang" theory, as you say, the Universe begins with a big bang, expands for billions of years, slows eventually, contracts and then does it all again !!!!
2) The Steady State theory, where the Universe begins with a big bang and continues to expand forever, not contracting and eventually all the fires go out, and that is the end of time !!!
Scientists cant agree exactly what is the real answer. The theories break down somewhat because of the calculated known matter in the Universe. There is a critical mass of matter that determins whether case 1) or 2) applies. And so far, they have not identified enough matter to conclusively postulate that 1 or 2 applies.
This now has become a search for the missing matter, the so-called "dark matter" which we cannot see. If it is there, case 1) will apply
If they cant find it, case 2 ) is more likely.
Some theories suggest that this matter may be inside Black Holes (dont go there yet...BIGGER headaches)...some suggest it is a type of matter we dont yet understand and cannot see !!
Either way, the Universe has about 18 billion years left to run...so it wont bother you or me !!!
For me, the biggest mental strain is to try to comprehend the "singularity" where it all began...before the big bang...all the matter in the known universe compressed into one point of infinite smallness and infinite density...................OMG...what was BEFORE the big bang ????...or did time itself start then....yipes !!!!
ps...actually, at this time, the expansion is speeding up !!!! Galaxies at the limit of our resolution seem to be speeding away at close to the speed of light...and what if there are Galaxies speeding away at GREATER than the speed of light...Einstein would have a fit !!! to go this fast implies an infinite density and an infinite slowing of time...yipes again ;D ;D
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Time ? Isn't this Man-made ? That there actually is NO time in Space , only Matter and Anti-Matter . I have read this somewhere , then .. why does it take sooo long to get anywhere in the Universe ? Also , they do are finding more and more of this not to be seen " Dark Matter " which is pulling some of those beautiful Spiral Galaxies out of shape . If it's sucked up by Black Holes ( which have Gravity beyond our imaginations ) never to be seen again .. they would not be able to do such pulling on outside Matter as they do . Right ?
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Yes Arnold, time does exist in space...but not as we are aware of it...minutes and seconds etc, this bit is Man-made.
Time is recently defined as the arrow of evolution, as such it is theorised that this arrow can be in 2 directions, whereas we only percieve time as a one-direction arrow as we live our finite lives...one way !!
Greene postulates that within the Universe, on a quantum scale there are places where time would seem to us to go backwards, where a broken egg would reconstitute itself perfectly...this is quite probable Mathematically (!!!!) At the micro level (quantum) the Universe is seriously chaotic, all things exist as probability waves.,......hence Heinsenberg's Uncertainty Principle..."the very act of observing something, by definition will change it !!!" To go further, there exists at any time an infinite variety of times and things, it is only our observing of them that jumps them into reality.
Look at the Moon, close your eyes...where did the Moon go to ??? Intellectually, you know it is still there, but scientifically, you cannot prove it so. By looking at the Moon, you bring it into existence..............
For further headaches...read about the "Scroedingers Cat Parable " ;D ;D ;D...dead, non-dead, alive, non-alive !!!!!!
I think you are probably right about black holes, dark matter and such stuff...but I dont claim to know much about it. Apparently, the Great Attractor which pulls Galaxies into the shapes we observe is all about the sheer amount of matter being held somewhere within the Black Holes that are present at the centre of ALL Galaxies...ours included. Mass/matter thus produces/influences/creates Gravity, which is a very weak force...but there is a lot of it !!
Time in the Universe can only be referenced to the speed of light...not a clock !!! Light being the only vehicle we have of measuring evolution on a Galactic scale. Therefore to say that a Galaxy is 20 light years away, this defines both a time and a distance....we observe this Galaxy as it was 20 years ago !!! What has happened in this 20 years, we cannot see and cannot know...yet !!!
Makes you wonder about the Galaxies that are 1 million light years away.........what happened since ????
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This Stuff really get you jazzed up .
They say , if one Travels faster than Light .. you'll be going actually back in time . Let's say , one Travels with 1 1/2 time the Speed of Light towards a certain Galaxy which has the incoming light towards you at only speed of light . One would now think , you actually fly into the Future again , because when you catch up to this Galaxy it might not exist anymore and not be there at all .. as it's light is from the past . You follow me ?
Now this , going back in time .. can it or will it only be achieved in our own Neighborhood then ?
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Absolutely right Arnold !!...travel at large percentages of the speed of light is actually travelling back in time !!!
It was measured that the Astronauts, who travelled only at a small fraction of the speed of light were actually a few microseconds younger when they got back to Earth !! (compared to us on the Planet)
What a bummer...to travel so far and so fast back in time, only to find that the destination was not there when you arrived ???
Only problem with light speed travel is the issue of density...as you get faster, you get heavier.....
New problem...when you arrive , your destination does not exist...but you have put on a few million tonnes of weight !!!!
Headache again !!!!!
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I guess only skinny Guy's/Women will be Traveling at those kind of Speeds ? haha
I know our Body would never take this kind of punishment . We don't even have Metal that would stay together at those Speeds . Oh well back to my Car .
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Great discourse guys - I have a book with the answers in it, although I am going around updating it - The Hitchhikers Guide to the Universe It's the follow up from the famous first book The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
I should have it done around the same time as my wife's visa arrives.
By the way ..... you earthlings have the subject name incorrect. It's not Astronomy but AskronO my
AND YES..... THE ANSWERS STILL IS 43
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On a more serious note: The problem of using light as a measuring stick for time is that light is affected by gravity. In particular black holes. Light bends as it passes near which skewers time. So any HEAVY MATTER like MATTERS of the Heart slows down time. So just like the subjective feel of times passing (ie: having a good time which passes quickly) time speeds up and slows down on a universal scale as well. A different twist on the relativity of time.
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And if one Universe wasn't enough .. now they talking about a Parallel Universe too . I think nobody knows what's going on out there .. really ?
Air also bends light ( as Sunset's proof , Sun can be seen below Horizon ) , if we could just bend it a little more Rhonald .. you could see what your Wife is doing .
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Greens Parallel Universe theory...called "Branes" suggests that there are an infinite number of parallel Universes sitting next to each other as "flat plates"...called Branes !!
Where these Branes sometimes touch...is a logical spot to do a bit of time travel into another Universe.
Hawkins suggests much the same thing with his "string" theory...the ultimate small particle is not a particle but a vibrating string...each string is diferent and vibrates at a different frequency.....hence different strings make up different particles. At the exact moment of the Big Bang, everything was a super hot , super dense mess of strings that eventually coalesced into the particles we know today, then on to hot gas clouds, then onto Galaxies and Planets.
"The Self-aware Universe by Amit Goswami" and "The Wrinkles in Time by George Smoot" explain it all...I can understand about 1 word in 20 !!!!
Also, air dont bend light...its gravity that bends light, that is why we can see the sun after sunset, the Earth's gravity bends the light. Thats why we can never see inside a black hole, the gravity is so strong that it pulls the light into it at more than the speed of light !!!...hence "Black Hole"...no light can get out...its Black, Black, Black.
As they say Rhonald..."How fast time passes when we are having fun" ;D ;D
At least for you at this time, you wont be ageing...your time must be passing very slowly as you wait for your Wife's visa !!!....maybe you will be a baby again by the time it finally arrives ('scuse my humour, I dont want to have fun at your expense, but I couldnt resist it )
David
ps...I think the answer is not 43...its a Lemon ;D ;D
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Question. If you come to the edge of space and you fall off the edge then where do you go to.
Space frightens me. I need to know that there is a beginning and an end like life. The galaxy that probaby nothing compared to the mind of a Chinese woman.
Mind you I do have a telescope which my new step son uses nearly every day to look at the moon! But why when, i check it out it is always facing the apartment of the pretty teacher on the opposite side of the road!
Willy
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Ha never thought of that Mike.
Should have realised that a 21 year old would only be interested in the galaxy in the sky!
Willy
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Vince , if you still looking to buy a Telescope .. here is a address you might want to check out .
www.scientificsonline.com (http://www.scientificsonline.com)
I receive their Magazine by-monthly and they have all kinds of Scope's .
The Astroboy Computerized Telescope connect's to your CP/Laptop for Photo taking and saving . It's a 70mm Refractor Scope # X31520-68 at $ 299.95 . It's on page 21 of NEW PRODUCTS
I scanned it , but it's too big for here .
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Here is one of the pictures I had taken several years ago with just my 35mm camera, the standard lens, and the barn door tracker I built for about $10.
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Nice Photo Dave , too bad it was Cloudy !
Hahaha
I miss night sky like that :-\
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The Astroboy Computerized Telescope connect's to your CP/Laptop for Photo taking and saving . It's a 70mm Refractor Scope # X31520-68 at $ 299.95 . It's on page 21 of NEW PRODUCTS
Not bad but I think I want a reflector type? Something like the Celestron 114Lcm Computerized Telescope.
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The Astroboy Computerized Telescope connect's to your CP/Laptop for Photo taking and saving . It's a 70mm Refractor Scope # X31520-68 at $ 299.95 . It's on page 21 of NEW PRODUCTS
Not bad but I think I want a reflector type? Something like the Celestron 114Lcm Computerized Telescope.
For some strange reason , I never liked Reflector Scope's . I know you go bigger for less Money , but the Picture is not as clear . Well that's what I was told long ago .
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Nice Photo Dave , too bad it was Cloudy !
Hahaha
I miss night sky like that :-\
Arnold,
It was not cloudy. That was a little mist starting in the night air. I was at the beach near my cottage taking this photo. This day there was a man that had some sort of break down and went a little wild. Took his 12 gauge and shot up the town a little. Then took of into the park where my cottage is, in his light blue minivan. I was at the beach with my light blue minivan taking pictures of the sky, with the tracker I built that has a bright red LED to light the timer it has. The ranger kept driving by waiting for the SWAT team he had called on me. He thought I was the same person because my licence plate was 1 letter out of the one they were looking for, and he thought that the red LED was for targeting. (Mine was WAN *** the one they were looking for was WBN***. the numbers were the same too.) Almost all the pictures were ruined from the headlights from his vehicle. This one is the only one that sort of turned out, and because of the circumstances I kept it. I just happened to find it here.
At the time I had just found out about closing the apeture 1 or 2 f-stops to correct a problem I was having, you just have to expose the film a little longer. From about 4 or 5 minutes to 7 or 8 minutes per picture. I cannot find one of my favorite ones. I will post it if I ever find it.
Dave C
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Nice .. thinking you were the one . Did you carry your Gun in case they didn't believe your Story ? ???
I use to take out the Camera with tripod and just aim it ^up^ at the Stars on F4 and left it open 5-6 minutes to catch shooting Star's as the rest started to Circle .I have them in my Garage somewhere , I also will look for them when I have time .
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Lunar eclipse coming up.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/12/17/final-lunar-eclipse-of-2010-set-for-early-morning-of-december-21/ (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/12/17/final-lunar-eclipse-of-2010-set-for-early-morning-of-december-21/)
Dave C
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Sun's Gravity Could Be Tapped to Call E.T.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/suns-gravity-could-tapped-call-e-t-20101218-062202-546.html (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/suns-gravity-could-tapped-call-e-t-20101218-062202-546.html)
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Very interesting Rhonald . AT&T is working on .. to see how much to $Charge$ for such Phone Calls to other Stars . This could be a little pricey and would most likely not be included in your Cell Phone Plan .