China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => Ask An Experienced Member => Topic started by: Pineau on May 17, 2012, 10:03:59 am
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I have a lady friend that is engaged to an American. He surprised her yesterday with a 15 page prenuptial agreement. She is sad to say the least but more inportantly she needs to try to understand it. I am doing what I can to explain it to her but I need a little help on some specific questions. So any legal types in our group please give an opinion.
This woman is eligible for retirement in a few years. she will forfeit that if she marries him and moves away to America. So he has made some provisions for alimony should they divorce. But i am not sure if his offer is really worth anything.
Anyone know what the immigration laws provide for in the way of alimony?
support amount to WIFE under the Immigration Laws of the United States, whichever is lesser.
I dont want to post much more that could be used to identify her in case her fiance is browsing this forum. So anyone needing more info then PM me and I will give you details privatly.
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She should get a copy of the pre-nup and take it to a certified translator and have it translated to Chinese, then make an appointment with a Chinese lawyer to have the legal ramifications of the pre-nup explained to her. I would make him pay for the translations and lawyer since apparently his wallet and heart occupy the same space. I can see why he is looking in China, I am pretty sure most western women told him where he could store the pre-nup for safe-keeping. ;)
As far as immigration law, there is no laws concerning divorces, alimony, child support or other family issues.Family issues are handled in state of residence family court system. If their state allows pre-nups then she has to abide by the pre-nup, the only type of support granted is not for the immigrant but a contract that gives the federal government the option to sue him to collect any means tested benefits the immigrant may receive, that contract is the I-864 which by the way is NOT affected by the pre-nup in any way. He will be liable for the I-864 for 10 years, her death, or her abandonment of her permanent residence status. She needs to find a lawyer that is familiar with the family court system in the US and his home state preferable to really understand her situation fully. Even if he lists alimony to her in the pre-nup, she needs to find out if she has any legal remedies if she decides to return to China and he refuses to pay alimony. Here is a link you can read up on pre-nups! http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/prenuptial-agreements-what-law-allows-30283.html (http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/prenuptial-agreements-what-law-allows-30283.html)
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My advice would be to give the paperwork back and the ring!
Pre Nups to a Chinese Woman are like saying "Ok I make be making a mistake but you sign this and we go ahead. No signing and we do not.'
Where the F--- has love gone.
Pre nups are a stigma on the American legal system. I say if you make a mistake you pay.
Get rid of him I say.
Willy
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Pre nups are a stigma on the American legal system.
From Wikipedia:
United Kingdom
Prenuptial agreements have historically not been considered legally valid in England.
Continental Europe
Prenuptial agreements have long been recognized as valid in several European countries, such as France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland.
United States
Historically, judges in the United States accepted the view that prenuptial agreements were corrupting what marriage was supposed to stand for, and often they would not recognize them. Currently they are recognized, although they may not always be enforced.
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Willy, I don't know his motives. He has probably heard the many horror stories about westerners being victimized by Chinese ladies or he is listening too much to his friends. Whatever the case it seems like he is paranoid about it. I read the document and it is thorough, prepared by an attorney and one sided.
My advice to her would be to throw it in his face and walk away but that is not going to work. I think they are both in love but just apprehensive about the future.
So she will probably sign the agreement just to keep him happy but she is fearful of the ramifications to herself if there was a divorce in the future. What is she going to loose? what rights are she signing away? Those are the types of questions she is asking. Not weather or not to sign it but what affect will it have on her future.
I think that is she signs it under duress (ie. he wont complete the marriage if she does not.) then the agreement is not enforceable.
(a) A premarital agreement is not enforceable in an action proceeding under the Florida Family Law Rules of Procedure if the party against whom enforcement is sought proves that:
1. The party did not execute the agreement voluntarily;
2. The agreement was the product of fraud, duress, coercion, or overreaching; or
3. The agreement was unconscionable when it was executed
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Prenuptial Agreements Around the World
Written on August 25, 2010 by Gabriel Cheong in Prenuptial Agreement
I recently had to research whether China recognizes prenuptial agreements and came upon this site below which has a list of countries and whether or not they recognize prenups. It is extremely informative and I’ll reprint it here.
Just a quick note that it doesn’t matter where you were married or where you have your prenuptial agreement drafted, it matters where you get divorced and whether the divorcing country recognizes your prenuptial agreement.
via International Family Law
http://www.massachusetts-prenuptial-agreements.com/prenuptial-agreement/prenuptial-agreements-around-the-world/ (http://www.massachusetts-prenuptial-agreements.com/prenuptial-agreement/prenuptial-agreements-around-the-world/)
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I can see that this will be a hot topic as being Romantic at heart, I am against prenups. But then I also consider myself as small fish with nothing to protect. Since I have no idea about the man in question and what his prenup entails, I would never think to judge. I think Robertt's posting about seeking a Chinese lawyer is the best advice legally she can get - emotional advice on what to do about the relationship could only be given if privy to the history of the couples.
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I can understand both sides of the argument. But in the initial posting you mentioned her loosing her pension entitlements. Is there any info in the prenup paperwork for compensation to her if the marriage does fail, not just now but in the future?
p.s. I am not for pre nups, Xia and I have built everything we have here together so we would both loose everything if things went tits up.
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Jason here is her compensation for giving up her life in China and moving to America (should there be a divorce)
The part I don't like is the constant referral to what ever he is responsible for under immigration law whichever is lesser. ( I think that is probably zero. I cant see the USCIS getting involved in family law. so this is his way out of paying anything at all)
6. ALIMONY:
A. WIFE waives any right to Alimony in favor of the following payment schedule:
i) The WIFE will receive a payment of Twenty‐Thousand Dollars ($20,000) for each year married if either party files for divorce less than 5 years from the date of marriage, or the Husband will be responsible for his support amount to WIFE under the Immigration Laws of the United States, whichever is lesser.
ii) The WIFE will receive a one‐time payment of One Hundred Thousand Dollars ($100,000.00) if either party files divorce 5 years or greater from the date of the marriage or the Husband will be responsible for his support amount to WIFE under the Immigration Laws of the United States, whichever is the lesser.
iii) If either party files divorce after 10 years from the date of the marriage the WIFE will receive a one‐time payment of 10% of the HUSBAND’s assets as determined by the date of filing of the Divorce.
iv) If either party files for divorce after 15 years from the date of the marriage the WIFE will receive a one‐time payment of 15% of the HUSBAND’s assets as determined by the date of filing of the Divorce.
v) If either party files for divorce after 20 years from the date of the marriage the WIFE will receive a one‐time payment of 33.3% of the HUSBAND’s assets as determined by the date of filing of the Divorce.
BTW Jing and I had a prenum agreement but we did not use it during the divorce. We just split everything 50-50.
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Why would any woman want to marry someone if they are fearful of the fact the man is contemplating the 'what if's' of divorce before they marry!
I say do not marry if you are fearful of the result or cannot commit yourself to one person for life.
Decide now if you are truly suited not down the line after the first thrills of sex with a new spouse have worn off.
The only marriage contract should be the vows you take not some lawyer written piece of paper. You expect the other side to conform to the pre nup agreement when you cannot conform to a marriage contract.
Pre nups are not actually legally binding the the UK anyway. At least we do have some sense.
Willy
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Huh ??? After 20 years of marriage, she MAY get 33% of his assets if they divorce..........a lifetimes dedication and she leaves the shmuck with just about everything....he only has to liquidate assets and be asset poor....
Pre-nups in Aus (as the article referred to here says) will be subject "prima facie" to the Australian Family Law Act, which provides for settlement of the joint assets in a more equitable way, recognising that in a "short marriage "...ie one lasting less than 2 years, a woman cannot expect to simply recieve 50% + of her husbands asets. The Family Law Court Judges will mostly over-rule any onerous Pre-nups despite them being signed, legal documents. They will always apply the "reasonableness" test to the agreement...and their decision is FINAL. They would be certain to split the assets more closely to 50:50 after a 20 years marriage...and so they should !!!
However, all bets are off when children come into the marriage, pre-nups than get a back seat to Family Law.
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Willy. I understand what you say and it makes sense to me now. But 13 years ago I signed one with Jing because I was not afraid of me being the cause of divorce but her. She is 20 years younger and I was warned by all my friends that she will probably leave me in a few years. They were wrong but still, the paranoia got the better of me. She had ever right to refuse to sign it and I probably would have married her anyway.
But I have never met or spoken with here fiance. I cant speak for him and what his fears are. Maybe his kids put him up to it. I just don't know. But I watched this worried lady on the verge of tears because she so much wants this man for a husband yet she is risking everything she has worked so hard for in China. It was hard to watch.
All opinions aside I would like to know the enforce-ability of these agreements and what advice to give to her so she can make an informed choice about signing it or not or maybe making some modifications that make her feel more secure.
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The part I don't like is the constant referral to what ever he is responsible for under immigration law whichever is lesser. ( I think that is probably zero. I cant see the USCIS getting involved in family law. so this is his way out of paying anything at all)
That is his catch 22, her support is determined by FAMILY COURT not Immigration Law because Immigration law does NOT and WILL NOT get involved in domestic family issues such as divorce,custody,alimony etc. Immigration law is exactly what the name implies IMMIGRATION. The closest thing Immigration law has pertaining to domestic issues is the IMBRA act that covers domestic violence and human sex trafficking. His lawyer is throwing that phrase in there trying to convince her it is legal or he does not know immigration law either.This is the disclaimer listed on the Department of States website under Laws and Policys;
Divorce Abroad
Print
Email
DISCLAIMER: THE INFORMATION IN THIS CIRCULAR IS PROVIDED FOR GENERAL INFORMATION ONLY AND MAY NOT BE TOTALLY ACCURATE IN A PARTICULAR CASE. QUESTIONS INVOLVING INTERPRETATION OF SPECIFIC U.S. STATE OR FOREIGN LAWS SHOULD BE ADDRESSED TO LEGAL COUNSEL IN THAT JURISDICTION.
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Seems to me he is just being careful with being fooled into marriage by a (possible) gold digger. Perhaps the State he lives in is a 50/50 assets law, like California? The words "immigration laws" seems to me showing he will be responsible under the "I-864".
I (we) don't know his situation.
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The I 864 is a contract between the petitioner and the federal government, she is not a party to the contract.The 864 contract gives the government the right to sue THE PETITIONER and recoup any means tested benefits the immigrant may collect such as food stamps.She is not eligible to collect any of these benefits until she has had a greencard for 5 years.His pre nup will Not affect the I 864 in any way, he is liable for the duration of the 864 contract.
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The I 864 is a contract between the petitioner and the federal government, she is not a party to the contract.The 864 contract gives the government the right to sue THE PETITIONER and recoup any means tested benefits the immigrant may collect such as food stamps.She is not eligible to collect any of these benefits until she has had a greencard for 5 years.His pre nup will Not affect the I 864 in any way, he is liable for the duration of the 864 contract.
Just a thought...could he be thinking that this would be what he means when he says "or the Husband will be responsible for his support amount to WIFE under the Immigration Laws of the United States, whichever is lesser"
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The I 864 is a contract between the petitioner and the federal government, she is not a party to the contract.The 864 contract gives the government the right to sue THE PETITIONER and recoup any means tested benefits the immigrant may collect such as food stamps.She is not eligible to collect any of these benefits until she has had a greencard for 5 years.His pre nup will Not affect the I 864 in any way, he is liable for the duration of the 864 contract.
Just a thought...could he be thinking that this would be what he means when he says "or the Husband will be responsible for his support amount to WIFE under the Immigration Laws of the United States, whichever is lesser"
The 864 does Not provide any support for the immigrant, the only benefactor of the 864 is the US government as a means to recoup any means tested benefits the immigrant might receive. The 864 gives her NO support payments of any type!
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Precisely
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Yes Robert I understand what the i864 does. It seemed to me that he used the wording immigration support to make himself look good on paper. I think they are saying if the government goes after him he will pay it? or something like that? Like I said I understand the 864 but I am trying to figure why they put that in the prenup?
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Yes Robert I understand what the i864 does. It seemed to me that he used the wording immigration support to make himself look good on paper. I think they are saying if the government goes after him he will pay it? or something like that? Like I said I understand the 864 but I am trying to figure why they put that in the prenup?
His lawyer used that phrase for 2 reasons. 1. To imply legality to her with use of the term" immigration law". 2. He knows there is no immigration laws governing alimony, custody, and child support so the lesser amount of his pre-nup is zero since immigration laws do not cover divorces or pre-nups. I wonder if he plans to send a copy of his pre-nup in with his 129F for his fiancee visa or just tell her to keep quite about their little financial arrangement. I am pretty certain the pre-nup will draw the visa officer's attention to the level of commitment in their relationship. The funny thing is that the visa officer can deny their relationship if he thinks negatively about the pre-nup and does not have to explain his reasons to the petitioner or his lawyer, so he can effectively doom his fiancee visa while trying to protect his piggy bank. 8) I still think she needs to have the pre-nup translated in to her NATIVE language and then have a lawyer she selects explain the details to her so she fully understands what she will give away if she signs this document.
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I can only say to all this... why the Hell is he even thinking of marriage to anyone??? If he's already married to his money and obviously there isn't a whole lot of Love/Trust there.. he should just stay single and screw around as he please'.
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Here is some good reading for your wife's friend before she immigrates here! http://www.uscis.gov/files/nativedocuments/M-618_c.pdf (http://www.uscis.gov/files/nativedocuments/M-618_c.pdf)
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Pineau,
I just read an article concerning divorce and immigrants. It appears several states are now allowing the I-864 to be brought up in support proceedings now! Prior to this the immigrant had to file civil suit in federal court to seek support from the I-864, given this information I understand why his lawyer inserts the wording he did. " the Husband will be responsible for his support amount to WIFE under the Immigration Laws of the United States, whichever is lesser" The reason being is the I-864 requires the petitioner to provide support at 125% above poverty level based on the I-864P, using the current I-864P guidelines and their household size after marriage of 2 people, the most he will have to pay is $ 1,576 monthly based on the I-864P, if she is awarded 100% which is unlikely.If the alimony is decided by a family court her alimony is based on his income and assets so he will come out better using the I-864 for deciding his alimony payments. This is only in effect in a few states and Florida is not one of them yet.
Here is the link to the article! http://www.good-lawyer.com/2012/05/07/love-v-love-the-pennsylvania-superior-court-upholds-federal-immigration-law-in-spousal-support-matters/ (http://www.good-lawyer.com/2012/05/07/love-v-love-the-pennsylvania-superior-court-upholds-federal-immigration-law-in-spousal-support-matters/)
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My advice is forget pre nups. My advice is always do not marry a man from North America. Most failures, percentage wise, come from that neck of the World when they marry foreigners. No wonder your state departments look at such marriages with a fine tooth comb.
Too easy for them to walk, or cause the woman to walk away from marriages.
How many failures or problems from this Forum alone has been to Non North Americans. You seem to go into marriage with the 'I can get out if it does not work' attitude instead of 'I will make it work' attitude.
As David E says English law is much the same as Aussie law.
Do not think twice about marrying a foreigner think 3 times.
Willy
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Too easy for them to walk, or cause the woman to walk away from marriages.
Willy
Interesting that you put all the blame on the men. And then put it more on North American men. It almost smacks of discrimination to make a comment like that. While I am one of those that have a failed marriage, there are a lot of things that you do not know of my particular situation. Was it easy to walk away? No. But I did what I had to do, based on the things I was dealing with. I really dont think it is a fair statement to be made by you. And for the record, I don't agree with pre-nups.
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How many failures or problems from this Forum alone has been to Non North Americans. You seem to go into marriage with the 'I can get out if it does not work' attitude instead of 'I will make it work' attitude.
So you draw the conclusion that the attitude of American men is what results in the frequency of failed marriages. I could equally argue that maybe gold diggers will target American men more often then other nationalities or that foreign women's misconception of American men (mainly due to Hollywood and American culture) leads to the failed marriages. Also most members that have married from this forum are from the USA. I feel we do not have a large enough data set to be drawing conclusions from.
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How many failures or problems from this Forum alone has been to Non North Americans. You seem to go into marriage with the 'I can get out if it does not work' attitude instead of 'I will make it work' attitude.
I could equally argue that maybe gold diggers will target American men more often then other nationalities or that foreign women's misconception of American men (mainly due to Hollywood and American culture) leads to the failed marriages. Also most members that have married from this forum are from the USA. I feel we do not have a large enough data set to be drawing conclusions from.
I think you will note that I said percentage wise. The percentage of failed marriages from North America (Not just Americans) is higher than that of the the rest of the world. In fact I cannot recall one failure from those in Australia, NZ, UK and Europe. So I say again it is the mind set of the North American men. Divorce is too easy. It may be hard emotionally for one party but much too easy in my opinion.
Also are you saying that American men are so 'Gung Ho' that they rush into marriage before finding out the women are from a small batch of Gold Diggers.
I make no aplogies for giving blunt opinions. I have never been and never will be politically correct and it does liven up the Forum.
Willy
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There were a lot of 'Gung Ho' types on here saying write letters for 3-4 months, then go on a trip and get married within 5-6 months, and bring her home to live with you within 12-14 months ....
Well, this seems to put me in the Gung Ho category, would it not? Writing 6 months (EMF's and E-Mail) and going to China and get married after the second day there.
Now did I rush? I (am sure same goes for my LaoPo) don't think I did. It is 'How" one uses this time of only letter's and phone calls, to get to know this person in a photo. Making sure it is all on the honest level throughout and I think six months to find this out is more than enough time.. by my standards anyway.. to consider marriage with someone never yet met face to face. Am I a rare case regarding this or am I just smarter than someone else.. you be the Judge. Of course it takes two to make this work (hasn't it always been that way over the ages) and honesty on both side.. how can this go wrong?
This is why I'm really against a Pre-Nup and I mean coming from both sides, as I still see it as.. not trusting the other well enough to worry about material things. I was getting so well along with Qing, that I put her on my Life Ins. before I even met her. Why? Because I had her "Full" trust and she had earned it, to be my Benefiary.
Now married over four years, even if I had a Pre-nup (and alot of assets) I think I would have torn it up by now.. she well enough deserves her share already.. if it ever would go south.. which we both can not comprehend ever happening.
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I think you will note that I said percentage wise. The percentage of failed marriages from North America (Not just Americans) is higher than that of the the rest of the world. In fact I cannot recall one failure from those in Australia, NZ, UK and Europe. So I say again it is the mind set of the North American men.
I make no aplogies for giving blunt opinions.
Well, until you actually do research and throw up figures, it is your gut feeling. It is also your gut feeling to the reason for this. In truth I think you are right about no non North American from this forum having a failed marriage - but a big as of YET. How long does the marriage need to last before it figures into your equation?
And your reasoning for the failure due to us rushing in - then what about the non American's rushing into maybe not a marriage, but a relationship never the less that ended in sorrow and folly. Seems to me the odds are just about even when tallied against the Americans - marriage and/or relationship.
You might make no apologies for being blunt, but I also think you are being short sighted in your opinions. Narrowing your focus to just failed marriages misses the bigger picture that all cultures have experienced failure in relationships and usually due to the same mistakes as the failed marriages did.
Statistically modern countries have a 40 - 50 percent divorce rate from first marriages. Harder to find statistics on inter-racial-international marriages - ie: Email/Internet Brides, but if the modern countries are close together with overall divorce rates - then I can not see any cultural trait that would increase the non Americans to have a better success rate. My hunch is no difference.
And as for history in settling the wild west in Canada - the British were less likely to marry and settle down with Indians. The Metis tended to be a result of predominately French or Scottish men with Indian woman. So maybe there are cultural tendicies that help in interracial marriages! Back then England was the world super power, while today it is the USA. Who knows, maybe it is due to the extra critical eye that keeps being cast upon who ever is number one that results in BLUNT LOGIC :o :o
And guys, while on some of his posts here, Willy might appear blunt and direct, in person he is a most agreeable host. Makes me wonder if he sometimes is just a little cold and wishes to stir the coals in the fire.
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Seems to be a lot of hot-air and steam getting blown around here ;D ;D
Maybe we should consider marriage between Foreigners (by that I mean those who RESIDE in Foreign Countries) as something totally outside of the usual marriages that the divorce statistics portray.
By definition, foreign marriages could well be considered "quickies"...because of the constraints that we all suffer over timing/visits/visas/Immigration Departments. We dont have the luxury of long, extended courtships where two people can meet very frequently over a long time (2 + years maybe) and then decide if they want to live together/get married. We have to act more speedily, sometimes at the expense of prudence and at increased risk. Few of us can afford the time and money to visit our foreign ladies to achieve the same "contact time" that we probably would with women from our own Country.
The nett result is that we most probably enter marriage knowing somewhat less about our partners than we should, because we could well have only been "face-to-face" for such short periods, we had not the time to REALLY get know everything we should before we actually get married/get her to our Country.
So therefore, weare primed for problems...and we need to be EXTRA careful to nurture he marriage/relationship in the early days, because we have not the luxury of the long engagement. I dont speak here of the long wait from committment to visa, because that does not really count in relationship building processes....only counts for frustration levels and patience !!!!
Different for Willy and those like him...they are in the SAME Country as their intended, they can take much more time to work out exactly who is right to be their life-time partner.
I dont know the real statistics, but I am told that in Aus, about 40% of Foreign marriages fail within a 5 year period, compared to 68 % of same country marriages for Aus as a whole. (this came from my Lawyer, who is close enough to the "powers that be" for the information to have some credibility). I am personally surprised that it is this low, considering the fragility of the relationship model as discussed above. !!
Either which way, marriage to a Foreign Woman MUST be considered as "more risky" than marriage to a local...yet the stats dont appear to back that up. Maybe, despite the risk, the mechanisms and machinations we must go through to have a marriage to a Foreign Woman must make us either more careful to choose correctly, or more tolerant and sensitive to problems along the way in the early days. I find it difficult to believe that there is a different mechanism at work for different countries. Perhaps USA gets the most publicity about failures because it is statistically the place where most Foreign Women dream of living......
By this I mean that 100 failures each year in Aus would be a HUGE percentage of Foreign Marriages, whilst 5000 failures in USA may well be a tiny percentage of the total
Dont confuse quantity with percentage... ;D ;D ;D
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I've been back and forth about Willy comment. Should I comment? Shouldn't I comment?
If you tally up including those who talk on chnlove then I think it about evens out. So I think it is Willy just trying to stir the pudding a little.
Ho Hum... back to sleep now.
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Ok Let me answer some of the replies.
Mike MPO of course you looked at this as a true Christian which will always stand you in good stead. So you know your decision was correct.
Arnold you was not Gung Ho as you obviously had the 'I will make this work' attitude. Probably brought about by your Teutonic European Background.
Rhonald, as always, his words baffle me in the constraints of my limited academic standings but I get the gist of it. Especially the last paragraph!
Shaun - I have no idea what you are talking about. LOL ;)
From what I do know the highest divorce rates in the world come from the USA with nearly 5% of marriages ending in failure. Then comes Peurto Rico and then Russia. What did surprise me was that UK was running 4th but a good 2% per 1000 marriages less than the USA. 6th, 7th and 8th were NZ, Aus and Canada with 2.6% per 1000, 2.5 and 2.4% respectively.
I put the high rate of UK divorces down to the extremely high number of immigrants to the country since 1950 and pre 21st Century there were hundreds of thousands of marriages solely for immigration purposes. (One notorious women alone was said to have taken part in over 200 sham marriages using various names etc and eventually went through hudreds of 'quickie' divorces of course that was before the marriage records were computerised in the late 1980's).
China comes in way down the list at 0.79% per 1000 marriages. With less than 0.39% of Cypus marriages going that way. it looks like David 5o's marriage (who got banned) has statistically the best chance of all of surviving the course.
Divorce info from www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_div_rat-people-divorce-rate (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_div_rat-people-divorce-rate)
Willy
Just for Info. We have 'Iceland' staying with us for a few days. His experience in Asia will open a few eyes and mouths! As he is a professional writer and what he says will be one book that I will read.
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OK Willy, so those are the stats for divorce rates...but I thought we were talking about marriages with foreign brides. Are those statistics the same? Since you pointed the finger at North America, why is Canada lower than the UK? Why is Mexico lower, sitting at #31? Seems like of the top 5, only one is in North America. So when did that become a North American issue? You are throwing mud over the pond, but your figures don't match up.
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From what I do know the highest divorce rates in the world come from the USA with nearly 5% of marriages ending in failure. Then comes Peurto Rico and then Russia. What did surprise me was that UK was running 4th but a good 2% per 1000 marriages less than the USA. 6th, 7th and 8th were NZ, Aus and Canada with 2.6% per 1000, 2.5 and 2.4% respectively.
professional writer and what he says will be one book that I will read.
Willy,
It's not 5% of marriages ending in divorce, it's more like 50% of marriages ending in divorce in "top divorcing" countries, for instance:
http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml (http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml)
The numbers you are looking at is 5 divorces per a population of 1000 people, which is a different statistic (and those 1000 people include children, etc).
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6. ALIMONY:
A. WIFE waives any right to Alimony in favor of the following payment schedule:
i) The WIFE will receive a payment of Twenty‐Thousand Dollars ($20,000) for each year married if either party files for divorce less than 5 years from the date of marriage, or the Husband will be responsible for his support amount to WIFE under the Immigration Laws of the United States, whichever is lesser.
ii) The WIFE will receive a one‐time payment of One Hundred Thousand Dollars ($100,000.00) if either party files divorce 5 years or greater from the date of the marriage or the Husband will be responsible for his support amount to WIFE under the Immigration Laws of the United States, whichever is the lesser.
iii) If either party files divorce after 10 years from the date of the marriage the WIFE will receive a one‐time payment of 10% of the HUSBAND’s assets as determined by the date of filing of the Divorce.
iv) If either party files for divorce after 15 years from the date of the marriage the WIFE will receive a one‐time payment of 15% of the HUSBAND’s assets as determined by the date of filing of the Divorce.
v) If either party files for divorce after 20 years from the date of the marriage the WIFE will receive a one‐time payment of 33.3% of the HUSBAND’s assets as determined by the date of filing of the Divorce.
I was a divorced American man...somewhat sensitized economically by my divorce because frankly, it was quite costly to me; typically, divorce in America is not advantageous for the man in the vast majority of divorces.
So I think that I, in addition to most men, was somewhat blinded the first go- around. No street smarts. And the costs of failure is considerable. I do assume this gentleman in question was divorced, now maybe..hopefully a little smarter. Obviously his legal consul is protecting his ass the next go- around. Without knowing all the circumstances this prenup makes sense. I find the prenup conditions quite generous. I do not know what you people are thinking about that. Still, it is not me.
When I first visited Jing in Shenyang, the Fushun agency manager & I had a "getting to know you" talk. Basically, she was of the opinion that, yes, a lot of American men are players, even going into detail about a few of her clients mis- adventures. Not good news coming from a source who I considered reliable. She gave the Australians, the Brits, and the rest of the European men were given high marks.
I do not think I would want to contest generalities. That would be problematic since my own opinion is limited to myself. Only myself.
My first wife & I lived together for 4 years before marriage. She didn't even cut a fart the whole time. Jing & I were married in my first visit, two weeks of pure happiness.
So, maybe I am not the smart man after all. The thing is I did not go into my China relationship with all my American idiosyncrasies intact. Stupid arrogance be that. Cross cultural relationships dictate a lot of patience. A lot of understanding. A lot open discussions about what is China, because right now, all things in America are predicated by her China mindset. Jing does not understand but she is like a dried out sponge right now, taking in all this mental nourishment. She wants to learn. I appreciate her tremendous effort in all this.
I am patient. One thing the curious should remember is that I have never raised my voice with Jing. Ever. I am forthright in how I go about my marriage. Frankly, there is a lot of things Jing just not know or understand. In time she will be fine.
I am an older American man. I am probably somewhat set in a lot of ways I can not or will not imagine. I just do what I want, when I want, where I want. I probably can be cast as "atypical".
I do not have a high opinion of the American male. But I also understand that the women in America are very unforgiving with their selfishness of being. In addition to the elevated divorce rate, how many couples actually stay married despite their lack of general well being. Maybe the real question posed should be, "what is the percentage rate of successful & happy married couples"? There probably would not be any requirements for a prenup then. So I will let go this conversation with that.
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Ok Martin.
Then you are in a better place than most to tell us this.
Since this forum started what is the recorded success rate and failure rate of marriages of members. How many marriages have there been and how many failures? Or has no one ever kept a record of successes and failures? Or is 'failure' a dirty word on here?
From what I have read in past 3 years or more on here is that all failures on this forum have come from North America I cannot recall one outside that area. So you can prove me wrong on what I say about North America then I will rescind all my observations on this thread.
Willy
PS - John I am probably the oldest member in age on this forum so I still believe in old fashioned ethics. I like what you said about Australians and Europeans.
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Well, I wish I had included a few more details about the ladies situation.
Her fiance is a widower and not suffered or experienced a divorce before. So He is acting our of fear, or advice of his attorney or friends.
She is an instructor at a university here in Guangzhou. She has been on the same job for some 20 odd years and is illegible for full retirement in a few more years. If she quits her position before then, the University hands her 6,000 RMB and calls it even for a lifetime of work. She looses everything she has worked for her entire career.
She is not so concerned about the settlement. She thinks it could be renegotiated and a compromise could be reached. What is really bothering her and brought her to tears is what was this man thinking when he and his attorney drew up this one sided unfair agreement in the first place. She told me yesterday that she has reached a decision. She is going to dump him and walk away.
What a stupid asshole he has been. He is not the looser here. Everyone looses.
Maybe some of us think prenuptials are necessary for whatever reasons. But if we go that route we must be sensitive and fair. Dont just think about covering your ass but really examine it from her point of view and do the right thing.
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Since this forum started what is the recorded success rate and failure rate of marriages of members. How many marriages have there been and how many failures? Or has no one ever kept a record of successes and failures? Or is 'failure' a dirty word on here?
To be honest, records have not been kept. But, I only know of 3 that failed for sure (that's all i can think of right now). 2 were American, and one was Canadian (Mine). That being said, how many members have gotten married, and never returned to this site when their significant other arrives at their new home? So the only ones we have heard of are those that have actually stayed on this forum.
I dont know why you would ask if failure is a dirty word here. Certainly there have been many failures along the way for people from every country. Some married, and some dating. Some fall apart before the man makes the trip...some have fallen apart when the man is in China, and others have fallen apart later on. Its a reality of dating. Not everyone is as successful as you are. Some of us clearly are not quite as lucky...and for various reasons. The statement I took the most exception to, was when you suggested that it was the North American men that left, or caused the woman to leave. These women are also capable of causing the break down of a marriage. Hard to believe, eh?
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She told me yesterday that she has reached a decision. She is going to dump him and walk away.
Well, I would have done the same (looking from her view-point) and glad the she decided to dump. I guess PAPER-beats-LOVE! She deserves better and her hard earned Pention as well.
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She told me yesterday that she has reached a decision. She is going to dump him and walk away.
What a stupid asshole he has been. He is not the looser here. Everyone looses.
Thanks Gerry,
I think that covers what I have always said. We are not Gods gift to Chinese Women. Sorry for him and her as there was no need for this if he went into it with the right attitude.
And people on here say I do not know how Chinese Woman think!
Willy
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Since this forum started what is the recorded success rate and failure rate of marriages of members. How many marriages have there been and how many failures? Or has no one ever kept a record of successes and failures? Or is 'failure' a dirty word on here?
Some of us clearly are not quite as lucky...and for various reasons. The statement I took the most exception to, was when you suggested that it was the North American men that left, or caused the woman to leave. These women are also capable of causing the break down of a marriage. Hard to believe, eh?
My comment however badly made was that whoever caused the failure it was a marriage to, not by North American men. Which from what you say bears out this theory. Only talking of marriages not relationships. I was suggesting that is was north american living culture that may be the cause of this.
Willy
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Using the handful of men who post on this forum does not make for a statistically reliable sample. It would be like me asking 20 of my Hong Kong friends if they liked pizza. If 15 of them said yes, I would hesitate to extrapolate from the results that 75% of Hongkongers like pizza.
We should be grateful for those here who are honest and brave enough to share their failures and disappointments with the rest of us. None of us are immune to failure. In fact, it is only really failure in my book, if we fail to learn from it. How many men here have failed (or succeeded), and then never posted again? More lost statistics. How many have been economical with the truth? Who knows? How many have failed and then succeeded, or succeeded and then failed? What about the future?
For my wife and I, we bless our good fortune, and do everything we can to ensure the future happiness of our marriage. We have no crystal ball, and we are both experienced enough with failure, and grateful enough with our present success not to rub it in the faces of those who are less fortunate than us. This is not the end of the road - it is only just the beginning.
I wish everyone luck and wisdom, whatever the colour of their flag.
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Like I said, we have no useful statistics here. Most men leave the site when their lady joins them. It's too bad, because there would be plenty of valuable information that can come from members even after their wife arrives. I made a mistake...I can think of 2 Canadians and 2 Americans. ! Canadian and 1 American, the wife ended the marriage before the immigration process had been completed. Possibly cold feet. In the case of the Canadian, he flew to China to try and save his marriage. He is happily in a relationship now. But beyond that, statistics here are non existent...it would be nice to have that kind of information though.
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Just one more idea to through into the mix. I wonder how many women in China are influenced by American movies and the (I presume) fake way of life they make out in the USA? Is this an idea that is sown and upon arrival finding it very different to a preconceived idea?
But my feeling is as has already been mentioned their is a higher percentage of US men here than any other. So therefore basic maths to me means the higher the number the more chance of something going wrong.
I do not wish ill fate to any marriage but some very good issues were raised here. How many members have disappeared after marriage and spousal arrival in their country? How many of these members are still married or seperated before marriage or had their bride in their country and seperated and are too embarassed or whatever to come back here with their tales between their legs?
We can only be honest with ourselves and our partners and do what we feel is right. We all want the same thing here. Our wives with us forever and for us both to have a wonderful happy loving life together. It is not easy and sometimes we have to make some hard choices, if that is walking away, a prenup or what ever you decide is the right way is something between 2 people. All I can ever do is offer my experiences or opinions.
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Maybe this guy who wants the prenup is very wealthy and of course does not want to loose what he has if the woman is just a gold digger, A fellow member of this forum brought his Chinese wife from China and she came with nothing, Her and her daughter both got jobs here in Australia and sent a very large portion of their earnings back to China, They seldom contributed to daily expenses and within 1 week of her permanent visa being granted she left the family home with her daughter and is now involving blood sucking lawyers to squeeze everything from this man that she can, He has a lot to loose which he built up over his life time and he owned everything lock stock and barrel before he met this gold digger, He thought everything was peachy on the home front but he got stung big time, John.
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Thanks John for your contribution with this statement. Now I guess this guy is not a member of this forum - but needless to say, Willy will need to take in consideration that his observation was based on the limited sample rate of our members. Also per chance, his vision will have been clouded over by being closely involved with one American man living in China. I think he concentrated on the tree and did not look at the whole forest.
Using the handful of men who post on this forum does not make for a statistically reliable sample. It would be like me asking 20 of my Hong Kong friends if they liked pizza. If 15 of them said yes, I would hesitate to extrapolate from the results that 75% of Hongkongers like pizza.
Yes and Philip brings up a usefull point about generalization on small sample rates. Chances are that friends will share common interests as like is attracted to like. Jumping into a swimming pool's shallow end will not tell you how deep is the deep end of the pool.
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If I am reading things correctly then I think Willy read a survey that quoted the statistics and he compared them to what the men are going through on this site. Then he mixed in a healthy jab toward his American buddies for fun and we have a healthy topic going on.
I don't think we know enough about the men on this site to know if the statistics are equal. So many have left as others have said. It would be nice to hear from the others and see how their relationships are going, not solely for this thread but we all have a keen interest in seeing how well others are doing.
When it comes to matrimony it is a crap shoot for all of us. I was married for 27 years before it hit the fan. I could blame it all on her but I take part of the blame too. I had a female friend here locally who is a widow from Hong Kong. She is all of 33 and we talked weekly, as friends only, about China, Hong Kong, America, business, and the list goes on. She seemed to be a very nice woman and she worked in a store owned by a woman from the Philippines. Two weeks ago she ran off with another man and a little more than half of the stores inventory. He house had sold and she had been planning this for a long time. All of us that knew here were shocked. No one saw this coming. I shared this story to say that you never know what people will do. Did it happen because she is Asian? No. It happens all around the world all of the time.
Yes divorce in America is at 50% but I read somewhere that it is the same in China.
Face it. We all take a risk when we marry. The statistics show that second marriages ending in divorce is about 75%. Now add to that we are choosing to marry a woman from a different ethnic and culture group and the statistics are even greater. But we are all choosing to make that choice.
I like the following saying. "Insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different outcome."
In memory of the infamous play by the Fireside Theatre, I'll say, "I Think we are all Bozos on this Bus."
Another thought on this; http://youtu.be/4F-jeIdQwKY (http://youtu.be/4F-jeIdQwKY)
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Sometimes I think people insist on pre-nups just to convince themselves and their relatives that their future wife does not care about his resources. If you are that worried to begin with then let me terrify you, a true gold-digger or a woman marrying just for a green card will wear you and your lawyers ass out with a well planned and executed VAWA case. If you are lucky, when all is said and done, you are not jailed and labeled a wife beater or sexual predator requiring you to register with authorities ( regardless of whether you did or did not ) and guess what that pre-nup will most likely be tossed aside by the judge. Anyway, on the lighter side here is a pre-nup for you red-necks out there( I am not going to mention any names in particular because you know who you are);
Bubba's Handy Dandy Prenuptial Agreement:
This here is a potential legal document that ought to be taken serious. It just might be binding in a court of law iffin' it is signed and dated by both parties and yer lawyer.
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For The Man o' The House:
What's mine is mine and that means a wife don't touch, don't snoop through, and by all means don't tell the locals what all we gots and ain't gots.
Property: All buildings, shacks, trailers, sheds, motorized transportation, land, huntin' tools, corn stills, and animals are to stay in the possession of the Man o' The House iffin' the woman goes a wandering off playing in another's pasture.
Child Support: Iffin' they don't look like me, I ain't supporting 'em in the event the wife partakes in wandering off the marital property.
Money: The Man o' The House earns it so he gets to keep it. 'Nough said!
Mother In Law Rules: Must abide by the 500 mile restraining order that will be taken out upon the day of the marriage. Postal mail will be permitted if weekly financial assistance is abided by.
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For The Little Woman:
Iffin' you came into this marriage with clothes on your back and kids from yer previous marriage you get to keep 'em.
Housework: You agree to keep a lookin' good, cook, clean, tend to the land, garden, livestock, keep repairs up on the homestead, and be aimin' to please yer man at the drop of a dime.
Man o' The House Signature:___________________________ Date: _____________
Little Woman's Signature: _____________________________ Date: _____________
Lawyer Signature: ____________________________________ Date: _____________
( for entertainment purpose only. Could result in a lump on yer head, black eye, tender groin, and endless lonely nights if yer crazy enough to hand it to yer woman to read... or worse, to sign it.
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Hmmm...what's wrong with that Pre-Nup?
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Check out this pre-nup. I can't believe she signed it myself! http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/marital-agreement (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/marital-agreement)
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Rhonald, This person that i refer too is actually a long time member here but is a small time poster, He was duped by a gold digger but has not lost sight in looking for a Chinese wife,I actually met him in Handan back in December when he met up with one of my wife's friends, He is looking in to a prenuptial agreement if he does find another wife from China, John.
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John his experience would be ideal example for this Forum. Maybe those who have had bad experience and wish to stay anonymous can post the good or bad experiences via a Mod who will know it ias from a genuine source.
Willy
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Good idea Willy, I will ask this member if he wishes to do so via a moderator, John.
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Thanks guys for the advice and the information. I talk with quite a few ladies and most of the time they turn out to be fake, gold diggers or totally desperate looking for a husband before it is too late. I feel really sorry for some of them especially this one. She was so sad about the breakup with her fiance. She had been in a relationship with him for over two years and she nearly had the VISA. All that was left was the interview. When he surprised her with the prenum it just devastated her. She was so convinced they were in love and were going to live a happy life together. She also told me this is not the first time. She had another relationship with an American a few years before this one and had the VISA in her hand when she realized she was going to give up everything for him and if he changed his mind later she would forfeit everything. So she returned the VISA to the embassy and broke up with him. Her mother is fed up with foreigners too. She said she will kill herself if her daughter marries one.
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Sad..sad for this Lady! I can see now, how much more we are in "Favour" as American Men.. to her circle of Family and Friends. Thanks a million to those two nice Guys to keep spreading our Kindness/Loving/Gentleness of ways to all those Chinese Women. Maybe we should start in other Countries as well.. oh we did this already.. as they now shy away from "Foreigners" as a whole which means of course all westerners. These Men should get a Metal for standing their ground, while stepping on ours.
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For Lack of a better place to put this I am sticking it here. Another lady has just contacted me asking for help with a VISA. I have known her for a long time and we have had many conversations about life, husbands, China and politics. I never thought she would marry again but she surprised me and came up with an American usband last year.
I am not sure what she is asking but it is Something about her husband's sister decided not to be a co sponsor so she needs help with the AOS co sponsor paperwork. I have no idea how to do this.
So I am posting it here and also sending her to issoga.com website for more help.
Hi Gerry, i used the chat room here,seems it didn't work.How have you been? I told you I had done for visa to usa when we chatted on QQ. But i can't find you on my list.
I was very busy cuz my husband have been sick long time. I used all my free time company with him 10 days ago, no fee time for myself. He back NY for his sick from last week. I have nothing to do only worried him. His sister is very rich, but won't join guarantee for me and my son i think. They had done a little by a lawyer ,but now my husband's sick very heavy, so i want to find another to support us, don't need his sister's help. so want to ask you how to do it. I have no american laywer to ask, so asked you. would you tell me if you know? Thanks very much!
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Gerry yes she is looking for a cosponsor.What a cosponsor is.Is somebody who will guarantee that they will pay the bills for the lady and her kid.Once they arrive in the U.S.If her husband doesn't make enough money to meet the minimum poverty level in the U.S. For a wife and a kid your looking at about 25,000 a year.
This is something that the husband usually arranges.Back when I did the paperwork for my wife's visa.The cosponsor could be anybody.Immigration has changed the rules.A cosponsor must be one of the husbands, family members.
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PS - John I am probably the oldest member in age on this forum so I still believe in old fashioned ethics...
Maybe there is no connection between the age of the body and the age of the soul
(for want of a better word).
Some folks who've been around for a while suffer from hardening of the attitudes;
others retain the gift of lofty ideals in spite of all experience to the contrary.:-)
My dearest arrived in the country with all her worldly possessions in one suitcase..
whereas I have a house on a quarter acre pavlova paradise, with trimmings.
We do not have a prenup.
Nor would I insult what she brought to the relationship by asking for one :-)
For with her came commitment, sensitivity, patience and love.
It took me some while to accept that she had committed her innermost being to 'us' -
- at the risk of being pulled up for lack of statistical evidence, I do think men
are a lot less evolved in this area than woman -
and this has been a gradual and healing process, where I must remind myself
that appreciation is in order.
I also appreciate that nothing of this world can I take with me when I go,
so that in practical terms, she will be provided for. But that is small change
compared with the realisation that even in this world, shades of heaven are possible..
Peace
David K
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PS - John I am probably the oldest member in age on this forum so I still believe in old fashioned ethics...
We do not have a prenup.
Nor would I insult what she brought to the relationship by asking for one :-)
For with her came commitment, sensitivity, patience and love.
It took me some while to accept that she had committed her innermost being to 'us' -
- at the risk of being pulled up for lack of statistical evidence, I do think men
are a lot less evolved in this area than woman -
and this has been a gradual and healing process, where I must remind myself
that appreciation is in order.
Nicely put Dave
Willy
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My father told me once when contemplating marriage to a woman that he had mo plans of a prenup. He said that his plan was to spend it all prior to leaving this world. He just about did and he enjoyed the last years of his life. ;D