China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => The Campfire => Topic started by: Willy The Londoner on July 19, 2012, 11:20:41 pm
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How do our members see China in the next ten years?
I have just seen a report on the BBC TV. In the past 10 Years, during the Presidency of Hui Jin Tao China's wealth have quadrupled. at the start of that period there was one US Dollar Billionaire in China now there are 270!
For the first time there are now more people living in Cities than in rural areas. In my three years here I have seen rural land becoming like city extensions. From my apartment I can see maybe ten or twelve blocks of apartments being constructed. Even a new ten floor shopping centre is just up the road.
Whereas when I arrived in Zhongshan I lived on the edge of the city and the edge of the countryside I think very soon I will be in the centre of a thriving part of the city.
With a new President taking office in 2013 will the development and growth continue.
Willy
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Willy from my own observations.And from what I have read.And what my wife's family tells me.China's economy is getting ready to take a dive just like the rest of the world.I read a article on the enternet.The other day.That said some developer Built his own little city outside of Beijing.The city was built a couple of years ago.It is a ghost town.Nobody lives there.The city was built to accommodate 100,000 people only 5% of the city is occupied.From what the article said.The land prices and house prices were to expensive.And there is no work.The article did go on to say that the Chinese government did step in and cap the housing prices.All threw China.And that maybe Beijing will inject some more money into the economy to stave off a recession.
When the world economy took a dump 3 years ago.China's exports also took a big hit.It knocked allot of little companies out of business in China.So there is allready allot of unemployment.2 years ago The JiuJiang city government told my mother in law she had to move.Because they were building new houses and businesses.She fought them tooth and nail to keep her home.The government still came in and knocked the houses down and told the people.They had to find another place to live.
My wife talked to her mother Monday.According to my mother in law the city of JIujiang has ran out of money.They are not going to put new houses up or build any business.So my in laws are now the proud owners of a shell of a house.With half a roof and no windows or doors.And the foundation falling in on it's self.The government has promised to tear down my wife's ants house.and put her a new one up.But I don't see that happening.She also lives in Jiujiang.
In 1976 when China started to open the doors to the the rest of the world.They started in Guangdong province.Because it is the closest province to Hong Kong.The Chinese government stuck all their money and dreams in Guangdong province.Along with Beijing and Shanghai.Well it worked.Cheap labor no labor laws.And free land.So Guangdong province took off like a rocket.Cheap land cheap housing.Warm climate.No E.P.A. Close to a major world shipping port.It was truly a match made in heaven.And I'm sure it is growing a little each year still.
The problem is that it can't be maintained.Western companies are starting to bring the jobs back to there home countries.The price of living has doubled in most parts of China.So the price you have to pay the Chinese worker has also doubled.I seen the other day where the Chinese citizens stood up and told a copper plant that they were not going to open the factory in there town.We have all seen the news story's were China has closed another coal mine because it is a death trap.Or closed another Brick plant.Because they were using child labor.
Willy you live in Guangdong province.IF I lived in China it would be somewhere in Guangdong province.Guangdong province has the most opportunities.And money floating around.But once you get out of Guangdong province and see more of China.You see how utterly poor the rest of the country is.And how hard the people work.Just to to try to make ends meet.
Me and my wife was out walking threw the countryside of Jianxia province one day.And I noticed I didn't hear any birds singing.Or see any wild animals.I asked my wife why we didn't see any of this or hear any birds singing.My wife said it is because.The people have killed all the animals.And ate them.I thought about it.And it makes since.Some of the houses we walked by didn't have glass in the windows.Or doors where there was supposed to be a door.The houses were in real poor shape.With walls falling in.Or part of the roofs collapsing.Most people who had a little food were cooking it outside.On a little fire made out of a old pallet.Or there neighbors door.It was real depressing to see.
We all know or are aware of that history repeats its self.If it repeats it's self with China.Like it has in the past.China will employed on its self in under 5 years.And it will take another 40 years for them to get it fixed again.All it is going to take.Is a couple of years of bad rice harvest.Or a couple of hard winters.And you will have front row seat to a revolution.
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I hear what you say Maxx. I have been elsewhere and seen and taken part in the poverty that the majority live under. When I went to my wifes cousin up country and I wondered why I was being entertained in the shed! It took a little time to see that the beds and the subsequent cooking to make me realise that ten people lived in this. Then we went right out into the country and there there was just one room. As they had a guest of honour, guess who 8) they went out into the yard and brought in two fat chickens that there and then were dispatched at my feet and they were delicious!
The Chinese Government know that more and more info is getting out and more and more 'little' people are winning their cases.
The Chinese Government are in a better position than any others in the world. The problem has not been created here it is the big banks of the UK and USA. In fact all this started with the USA people lending too much money on houses people could not afford. The it snowballed. Then we found just how corrupt the big banks were in both of our countries.
Whatever happens is some places the average person in China is better off than they were 10 years ago. The top professors of Oxford and London still declare that China is just at the start of the Industrial Revolution that came to the UK some 200 years ago.
Look in the UK and USA there are people living on less than nothing it has always been so and always will be.
I think that in twenty years China will have the biggest economy in the World.
On the point of USA wages - I was always amazed at just how low wages were there compared to the UK.
Willy
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Willy I do agree the Chinese government and banks are in a better position .Then Say the U.K and The American banks.But what the Oxford professors forget to inject into there Studies is the human element.I truly think the average blue Collier Chinese worker is sick and tired of being sick and tired.With little or nothing gained.And since the cost of living in China has doubled in the last three years.It makes it twice as tough to pay the bills at the end of the month.
I think China is about ready to tank like the rest of the world.The reason they haven't tanked yet is because.There banks are not tied to are banks.For China's bubble to burst it will only take a couple of years.Of bad harvest and a few more years of bad government.With corruption and kick backs.
The human factor.I live next door to Willy.Every mourning I go to Willy's house and take his newspaper.While I'm stealing Willy's news paper.I'm kicking Willy's dog.And saying Nasty things to Willy and his wife.Now everybody knows that Willy is a pacifist.So he isn't going to defend himself or his wife.I do this day after day Willy calls the police.The police ignore Willy and tell him to take care of his own problems.So Willy lives with it.Till one day I push Willy's wife down the stairs.And call her bad names.
The next day Willy is waiting behind his door for me to come and take his news paper.When I grab Willy's newpaper.Willy opens his door and beats the hell out of me with a baseball bat.So what happend to the pacifist.Willy has just had enough of being kicked around by the neighborhood bully.I think that is the same place the Chinese workforce is.They have had enough of being kicked around.It doesn't help the Chinese workforce when the boss shows up in his New BMW.And his new 22 year old mistress.Just dripping with jewelery and furs.While they are working hard to try to make there lives better.
I have a Friend who lives in Zhuhai.She owns 4 houses.And a retail store.She can't sell the houses because She bought them before.The Government put a cap on the price that the houses sold for.Now that the cap is in place.To sell the houses she would have to sell them at a lose.This is a hard hit to take.It was hard earned money.She is a single mother of 2 girls.And the construction company that she works for is about to downsize.So she doesn't know if she will have a job.After the down sizing.
You can call the government and complain.But nothing will be done.You will not be compensated for your losses.3 billion people are hard to take care of.So you in act laws.That say that they can make your wife have a abortion when she is seven months pregnant.You protest this and march down the street letting the world know your tale of woe.So you are arrested beat up and imprisoned against your will.Your family that wasn't arrested is harassed.Your uncle gets fired from his job after 20 years of faithful service.
It smells like a revolution to me.The Chinese people as a whole are tired of being walked on by there government.And all it is going to take is a little spark to set it off.Kill another 60,000 people in a earthquake.Because some government lackey took a kickback.And didn't make sure the construction company was building the houses or schools to code.Boot another 300 people out on the street.So that you can sell there houses to a construction company.so that they can knock down the houses and put new ones up.Then sell the houses to the people you booted to the curb.
Willy all it is going to take is something like this.To set China back 20 years.Ask your wife where the rice she buys comes from.My wife eats Thailand Rice.She ate it in China.And she eats it here.The reason My wife got started eating Thailand rice is because.That was the only rice they had to eat in China.so it says China can't grow enough rice to feed it's people.So to many people.Not enough food.Rising unemployment.Topped with worker being dissatisfied with their place in the great seem of life.I think China has just gotten lucky for the last few years.I think the dance is over and China.Like the rest of the world was left standing with no place to set.
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There is power and money corruption in every government. But here they have had thousands of years to perfect it. What the local folks here say, "every 60 years it's time to change the government again"
The great China economic boon is not for the common folk. It is for the princes of the communist party loyals and their families. It is not filtering down to the common folk. They are working harder and harder to reach that comfortable lifestyle that is just out of their reach. They are sick of it and talking revolution under their breath.
These jokers at the top know that the whole economic bubble could burst and so are setting up their families in powerful positions and retirement accounts abroad. And they are exporting cash by the freight car load. It is the elite that are benefiting from China's boom and it is the small factory worker that will take the fall when the bottom falls out.
I don't know the feelings in t Northern China, but here the young people I know are absolutely sick of it.
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Ok so the worlds finances will fall flat in a few years!!!!
Then who will find this harder? The people of Asia who have been living near the bottom for so long or those in the Western World who have been living beyond their means for years?
There is no difference from those in Government here or in the USA or UK or anywhere else. None are in power for for the people they are there just for themselves.
How many poor members of a government are there? In the UK 28 out of 29 members of the Government are millionaires. (Probably the one that is not is because his wealth just fell below that rate after filling up his car with the most expensive gas in the world!).
None ever comes out of government with less than they went in with.
Those rich men in power in the USA they do not want to pay more taxes, they want those at the bottom to shoulder them. The same in the UK, It is the ones at the top who got a cut in tax rates so that the money can trickle down to the poor.
What! when its is stuck in bank accounts in the Cayman Islands alongside all the drug money that was laundered, knowingly or not by big banks from the barons. Money that was used by big banks to gamble with!
Gerry, tell me who in the USA and the UK, other than politicians, who are not having to work harder and harder just to stand still and they are getting no nearer a more comfortable lifestyle.
We in the West have caused the financial problems the world over and those outside the West are having to pay for our failings and when the day of reckoning comes I think many are going to be surprised at the result.
I think that the US would be better off with a President that gets voted in for 8 years max and then cannot stand again. Instead of going for two x 4 years. Then they should have to do the things they said they would before the election instead of thinking what they should do to win the second term in four years time.
In the West we need this stability rather than be continually being on the 'get votes' wagon.
Willy
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Willy no somewhere we got are wires crossed.Or I didn't make myself clear.I said China's economy will crash in under 5 years.Because of inflation.Rising unemployment.And the peoples feelings toward there government.I don't know much about the U.K. financial situation.But Americas is making slow progress.To putting things right again.The factory's that went to China and to Mexico.Are moving back to the U.S.Because of the crime in Mexico.And because the Chinese labor force demands better working conditions.And better pay.
As for politicians in the U.S yes it is the same.They go into politics broke.And come out years latter multi millionaires.It is the name of the game the world over.
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Maxx the jobs are only coming back to the USA because Americans are, in the current financial conditions, happy to take any job at any wage! The only way Obama have achieved this is the place high tariffs on Chinese Goods. In fact from my experiences here anything going in from China is subject to high and strict custom tax.
My wife's niece has a second business manufacturing and selling Chandeliers. They sell all over the World and the USA is the only place anywhere that the buying customer has problems with their imports.
The Arab States and Australia are their best customers.
Your government is blaming its woe on the whole world other than the USA itself. China have taken some great steps in recent months to build links with places like South America where Brazil are one of the other fastest growing economy in the World and also Africa.
They have even offered today to place billions of dollars into the UK economy to build power stations!
I see greater woes ahead for the USA in the years ahead than I see for China. Maybe we will have different opinions in 5 years time.
I have a friend in Zhuhai that is doing well with properties there. Maybe your friend bought at the wrong price!
Willy
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yes we will see in 5 years
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You must be serious Maxx as I have never seen such a short reply from you!!!! ;D ;D
I would have a bet with you but not sure if I have 5 years left in me or not to pay out or collect. :'(
Willy
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For your information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-year_plans_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-year_plans_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China)
Twelfth Guideline (2011–2015)
The Twelfth Five-Year Guideline was debated in mid-October 2010 at the fifth plenary session of the 17th Central Committee of the Communist Party of China (CPC), the same session in which Xi Jinping was selected as Vice Chairman of the Central Military Commission. A full proposal for the plan was released following the plenum and approved by the National People's Congress on March 14, 2011, with the goals of addressing rising inequality and creating an environment for more sustainable growth by prioritizing more equitable wealth distribution, increased domestic consumption, and improved social infrastructure and social safety nets.[7]
The plan is representative of China's efforts to rebalance its economy, shifting emphasis from investment towards consumption and development from urban and coastal areas toward rural and inland areas - initially by developing small cities and greenfield districts to absorb coastal migration. The plan also continues to advocate objectives set out in the Eleventh Five-Year Plan to enhance environmental protection, accelerate the process of opening and reform, and emphasize Hong Kong's role as a center of international finance.[7][8][9][10]
The targets for the Twelfth Five-Year Guideline in 2011 were to grow of GDP by around 8%, 7% annual growth of per capita income, spend 2.2% of GDP on research and development by 2015, bring the population below 1.39 billion by 2015, readjust income distribution to stop the yawning gap, firmly curb excessive rise of housing prices, implement prudent monetary policy, intensify anti-corruption efforts, accelerate economic restructuring, and deal with the complex situations in development in 2011.[11]
Among the other highlights of draft plan distributed to the media prior to the opening of the Fourth Session of the 11th NPC are:
Urbanization rate reaching 51.5%
Value-added output of emerging strategic industries accounting for 8% of GDP
Inviting of foreign investment in modern agriculture, high-tech, and environment protection industries
Moving coastal regions from being the "world's factory" to hubs of research and development, high-end manufacturing, and the service sector
More efficient development of nuclear power under the precondition of ensured safety
Increased momentum for large-scale hydropower plants in southwest China
Length of high-speed railways reaching 45,000 km
Length of highway networks reaching 83,000 km
A new airport being built in Beijing
36 million new affordable apartments for low-income people
I do not think that China will hit the dumps. They have the money, the resources, the people, they have the “brains” in understanding how this world works and their place in it.
I think it safe to say when you say China, it is not just “China” of old...that is so "singular". China has the luxury of money, their choice of investments as in anything/ anywhere, of their capacity to turn around their tightly controlled economy as far and as whatever re- direction they want.
I remember reading the above “New 5 Year Plan” when I visited there a couple years ago. It boggled my mind how the Chinese government wanted to re- direct 1.3 billion people from basically an export oriented vehicle to a consumption oriented vehicle. The desired result being the emergence of a larger Chinese Middle Class, to spend increasing monies on increasing production.
Anyone can piss & moan about controlled economies. What works, works. I will stick my dick out on this one and I will say that Wall Street greed & U.S. Congressional corruption started this world shit years ago. The SEC has flopped.
http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1322&context=lsfp (http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1322&context=lsfp)
America has been so corrupted by business demands that there is no prosecution of any of the Wall Street bankers. They walk with immunity because if you do not realize by know, America has a 2- tiered system of justice. It's laws are not applicable to all citizens. How do you go about unraveling this sordid mess of greed & connivence?
Maybe Jack Abramoff is a good start.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57459874/jack-abramoff-the-lobbyists-playbook/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57459874/jack-abramoff-the-lobbyists-playbook/)
China can deal with what China wants. Their economy model can turn things around a lot faster than our government compromised & corrupted business model.
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Willy I think you will be ok in 5 years.If you don't get sucked up into the Chinese revolution that is coming.John better Laied plans of mice and men.
John I'm going to send you the money for you and your wife to build a new house in China.I will send the money to Willy.Who will put it in a escrow account for you.That Willy's neighbor will have control of.Willy's neighbors second cousin twice removed will have access to the account.So that he can give the money to the construction company.so that they can build the house for you.
John do you see where I'm going with this.By the time the new deal floats down to the people the money has ben stolen.By some government lackey.And used to pay for his mistresses new car.And her jewelery.It all looks good on paper.Hell Communism looks good on paper.But when they actually try to use it.It falls flat on it's face.Because of one thing all the professors and philosophers didn't figure into the equation.Was the human factor.People think they work harder then the next person.So they think they deserve more of the pie.And by the time the pie reaches the people who really need it.There is nothing left.
I know you Brits think I drink DR.Pepper and smoke allot of dope.But I have seen programs like this first hand.Where the government was going to help the people.And the money dis sapeared.Before the people ever seen it.About 7 years ago.The Navajo Nation got a grant from B.I.A. (Buriel of Indian affairs) to build a farm.And to divert a major river.So that they could have the water.For the farm.Well the B.I.A. sent the money.And bought the equipment built the houses.And the barns.B.I.A. Even got them big time contracts.So that they could sell the produce.And the meat from the farm.If you have ever ate a potato chip.Or had a french fry.Or a pumpkin pie.Drank powdered milk.Or ate a green vegetable.there is a good chance that you have eaten food grown on the Navajo farm.The first four years the farm was in operation.It was bankrupt.The reason it was bankrupt is because all the government lackey's had there hand in the pie.
The corruption and embezzlement was so bad.That they stopped publishing the farm report.The same thing happens with the Navajo state fair.It runs for about a week the fair grounds are owned by the Navajo nation.If you want to go to the fair.you have to pay a entrance fee.If you want to be in the parade or the dance.Or sell your livestock at the fair.You have to pay big entrance fees.There are 150,000 card carring members of the Navajo nation.There is probably another 100,000 who are not Navajo Who go to the fair.Or have stuff entered in the fair.Or the parade.Every year.Yet every year the fair is broke.Nobody knows what happens to the 2 to 3 million dollars that fair generates every year.As a side note the last 3 Navajo nation presidents.Are setting in a federal prison.All for the same thing.Fraud and embezzlement charges.
Did I ever tell you how I got out of a ticket in China.I was driving a car.And I made a illegal u turn.And I wasn't wearing a seat belt.And I don't have a Chinese drivers license.I bribed the cop.I gave him 100 rmb.And he sent me on my way.The government lackey who was trying to run my wife's family.And all the neighbors out of the house they owned.He went swimming in the Yangtze river the other day.One of the neighbors had enough of this guy taking bribes.They thought he needed to clean himself up.
I tell you guys you want to see the real China.Get OuT of the big cities.Go out and see what China is really about.I've ben to a couple of third world countries.The people in the third world countries.Usually have it allot better.Then the people living in the villages in China.And I dammed sure would not invest my money into Latin America.They change dictators about every five years.I know a guy who's brother lives in Mexico.The guy has a crew of about 20 security guys.Around his house.And another 3 who are with him all the time.He has to bribe the local federallies(federal police) about once a month.To keep the thief's and riffraff out of his house.
Don't you guys.Think it is about time to stop blaming the Americans for all your financial woes.No American bank president ever held a gun to a British bankers head.And said here take the money.You all are starting to sound Like Obama.when he blames all of his problems and the countries problems on Busch.Suck it up do the right thing.And take responsibility for your own actions.And for your countries action.
We as Americans have all lost jobs,Houses,Retirement plans,Cars,And boats.We try each and every day to pick are selves up and move forward.And slowly and surely we are doing it.Financially I'm better off now then I was 4 years ago.I got another job.I stuck with the new job.Even though the new job payed about half of what the old job did.I Payed off the credit cards.Payed off the loans.I made enough money last year to fly to China with the wife and kids.Then leave them in China for 2 months.Then fly back to China.And help my wife bring the kids home.I think this is going to be the plan for Chinese new year.I'm just waiting for my wife to decide what she wants to do.I mite even make my own plan this year.I may drop them in China.And I may go down to Thailand.Or Singapore and hang out for a couple of weeks before I head back to the states.Or I mite go to Guam.And check out some of the local WW 2 history.I'm a little bit of a history buff.And there is a bunch of history there.And even more on the surrounding islands.So it would be interesting to me.
Willy no the Americans still won't take the low paying jobs.Or the manual labor jobs.Last summer Alabama passed a law.That said in short.That if you look like a foreigner.That they can stop you and check your papers.It scared the Mexican community so much.That they left the state.When it came time to harvest the crops.The farmers had no one to help them.Most of the farmers.Had to plow the crops under.I think they modified the law now.It says now that the cops have to have probable cause to stop you and check your papers.Which brings up another thought.Shouldn't we take the people on government assistance.And put them in the fields.And make them harvest the crops.You know make them work for the money that the government gives them.But Wait doesn't this make us uncivilized.
On another note do you know that if you own a farm in the United states.The government.Will pay you money not to plant any crops.Or just a few crops.The reason the government gives is it is to not have a over abundance of food.That will never get eaten.You know it isn't like us to sell it to the Arabs,Or the Koreans,Or the Cubans.Who have all tried at one point and time to blow us off the face of the earth.
I have drank more then a few beers and worked with Arabs Iraqis,Iranians.Pakistani,Cubans,Mexicans,Koreans.Lao,Vietnamese,Chinese,French Germans,Limey's.Thais Filipinos.I haven't met one yet that wants to blow the Americans off the face of the earth.So maybe you think that we get a bad rap along with the Brits.Just something to think about.
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Thats a lot to read Maxx. I will get through it all in the next few days.
I picked up on your illegal acts in China!!!! I say this if you was not driving without a licence or did an illegal U turn then you would not have have committed the more serious crime of bribery! That is just compounding what you said about the bent Chinese system in the first place!!! LOL
Secondly I was about 20 when the Bay of Pigs came up and Kruschev was sending his ships with their cargo of missiles to Cuban. Many on here were either little kids or not ever conceived at that time. It was Kennedy who with the threat of WW3 persuaded Kruschev to turn the ships round and go home. For 50 years the ordinary people of Cuba have suffered for this act by having vindictive sanctions placed on them.
Willy
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I also think America is heading for another nose dive. And frankly it's going to get real ugly! Both parties are sick of the corruption and bipartisan congress that continues to get rich and accomplishing nothing. To me it's inconceivable that the presidential race is still a toss up? We need a working house and senate with a knife to their gut...just to keep them honest and productive! Then some heavy duty changes of reality that will hurt for awhile.
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Though the president gets the blame (no matter who) I believe clearing out the House & Senate and start anew would fix the problems. Having people that actually WORK would be helpful.
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Secondly I was about 20 when the Bay of Pigs came up and Kruschev was sending his ships with their cargo of missiles to Cuban. Many on here were either little kids or not ever conceived at that time. It was Kennedy who with the threat of WW3 persuaded Kruschev to turn the ships round and go home. For 50 years the ordinary people of Cuba have suffered for this act by having vindictive sanctions placed on them.
Willy
Willly
That's another of your mischeivious statements ??????
Please, lets get the Cuba/Kruschev/Kennedy era in perspective....and yes, I too was around and lived through the fear of that situation....my Dad was a V2 Vulcan Pilot and he went off one day and he fully expected to bomb Moscow with several nukes and never return....when he did come home eventually, he was a broken Man...and the story he told me was spine chilling, he was 8 minutes away from bomb release when he got the recall.....he was in a holding pattern around Kamchatka Peninsular waiting for the "go" signal for 80 minutes...as he said, the worst 80 minutes of any Man's life. I know the unimaginable stress of those few days contributed to the early death of my Dad, I know he never recovered from being in such a horrendous situation.
At that time, the Russians had a clear and dedicated policy for Russian style Communism to take over the World, and they were busy doing just that. The only stopper to this horror was the USA. If Kruschev had got his way and positioned hordes of missiles in Cuba, then he would have the loaded gun always pointed at USA, and with Cuba so close, their reaction time could never be quick enough. Thus Kruschev believed that if he got the missiles into Cuba he could always have the "blackmail"card up his sleeve to prevent USA interfering in his Global plans.
Kennedy disagreed....and went to the brink to ensure that Kruschev was frustrated in his efforts. It is sad for the Cuban people, but then again, whatever Governments of any colour do is never on behalf of the common people is it ?? We common people are just collateral damage...same the World over.
ps I dont want to talk about golf just now..... :-X :-X :-X
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:o :o :o David... that could have all ruined my Plans with Chnlove and finding my LaoPo. That "was" a close one.. as I was in my mid-teens then and most likely not even taking it seriously the threat at hand. ???
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Vince.
Politicians that work for the people!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
You know that will never happen. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Willy
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Please, lets get the Cuba/Kruschev/Kennedy era in perspective....and yes, I too was around and lived through the fear of that situation....my Dad was a V2 Vulcan Pilot and he went off one day and he fully expected to bomb Moscow with several nukes and never return....when he did come home eventually, he was a broken Man...and the story he told me was spine chilling, he was 8 minutes away from bomb release when he got the recall.....he was in a holding pattern around Kamchatka Peninsular waiting for the "go" signal for 80 minutes...as he said, the worst 80 minutes of any Man's life. I know the unimaginable stress of those few days contributed to the early death of my Dad, I know he never recovered from being in such a horrendous situation.
ps I dont want to talk about golf just now..... :-X :-X :-X
I can understand just how your Dad felt. They had the results of the atomic bombs that destroyed Nagasaki and Horoshima and that was with 'less powerful' bombs. By the time of the Cuba incident the bombs were so much bigger and it was far more dangerous for the aircrew carrying them and there was a lot more ground based anti aircraft missiles.
It was only a few days ago I saw a piece on TV talking to relatives of the English man who was a designer of the first the atom bomb. He went in a second plane following Enola Gay with the intention of seeing just what the effect was. He was actually devastated as to how much damage was caused by that first atom bomb drop. He never got over what he saw that day he also was too ashamed to admit to family members his part in that destruction. None of the family knew anything about this until sometime after his death when government papers were released in the late 1970's. Even descendants to this day are not happy talking about it.
As you say the common people were just collateral damage with those bombs that killed tens of thousands but, I bet, not one Government politician
Willy
PS. I am definately not talking about Springboks and Cricket. :'(
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We should stick our nose in whats wrong here, and put other countries
wants and needs second.
I thought that was always official government policy, ::)
Willy
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Dont misunderstand me Willy...my Dad was not primarily concerned with his own personal safety, after all he was a career Military Man , had just been through WW2 and knew full well that Military Men go in harms way !!!
Whether he got shot down by missiles, by Fighter Interceptors or just plain suicide attacks after the event was not his concern.........shit happens in War.
Having nukes on board was not overly dangerous until the full and complex arming procedure was initiated.
The issue that destroyed his mind was...." if and when I am given the instruction to go to Russia and push the button on 8 nukes, each of 5 MEGATONS (1000 times more powerful than Hiroshima)...will I be able to do it (morally), can I refuse to do it (it would be a LEGAL order), and how can I live with the consequences if I do, or if I dont (Genocide or Treason).
Getting back home again after this, was a very slim option (the "bail-out " plan was to head for a base in China !!!) They knew they would never make it back through Europe, the Russians would throw everything at them to stop their egress. In effect, my dear old Dad really "died" during the agonising 80 minute wait for Armageddon......never recovered from it.
And we think we got problems...those folk were REAL Men.
If you want to know more about the sort of psychologial horror that this type of issue creates, read "Trinity's Child, by William Prochnau"
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I am old as old, but not quite as old as Willy.
The thing is, I think, is not to discredit Krushchev. After Stalin, Krushchev comes across as a saint. After the Cuban fiasco, his power was diminished considerably...like in 1964 he was toast (excuse the pun). My impression he was a pragmatist. Any war was unwinnable.
The Cuban fiasco was fueled by Fidel's insistence that Russia not back down in the face of U.S. threats. There was concession afforded the Russians that the U.S. pull it 's nuclear strike misslle capability from within the borders of Turkey.
So, we are here today because of Kennedy & Krushchev. New & direct contact with one another via the “red” phone. They talked. They reasoned.
The dramatics of the Cuban blockade were enormous. I mean it felt as if we were that close to total shit (junior in h.s.) but I felt deeply inside the whole thing was total b.s. over nothing. It was like fighting over a truly ugly woman. Basically stupid adventurism.
I understand that after WW2, there was considerable discussion in the West to share nuclear technologies with the Soviet Union, so as to prevent misunderstanding, such as the Cuban fiasco.
Even Eisenhower warned of the power of the military industrial complex. I do not think that was idle presidential chatter.
Well so much shit about something long ago. Fidel still alive. Kenedy assassinated. Krushchev shamed. Not bad casualties considering the fucking ideologues. Fucking assholes on both sides. Cuban embargo still exists. Utterly stupid...”Cold War” is over.
Damn Obama should stop acting like an asshole isolationist republican and give Guantanamo back to Cuba, normalize relations. Be done with that sad chapter in American history. It is worn through & through.
By the way..that young son of Krushchev on his “official” U.S. visit, is today a naturalized American citizen who is a university educator. Go figure..the world is not that bad after all.
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So speaking of Russian global expansionism, and China's thriving economy...what about its military might, and how it is flexing its military muscle right now? China claims to own pretty much everything in the South China Sea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_China_Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_China_Sea)
There are disputes happening now with Chinese fishing boats heading into waters belonging to other sovereign nations, and being escorted by Navy ships to prevent anyone from chasing off the illegal fishing.
So how will this military landscape change in the next few years as well? I feel the two issues go hand in hand.
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I know the Canadians and Europeans have troops in the blue of the UN peacekeepers and so does China. Not sure if or how many the USA have. But China is building up a good reputation for what they are doing world wide.
Plus they have never gone to war in any other country.
I personally are more concerned with the American buildup in Asia and that is the reason that China is concerned with taking over these islands to stop the country being in the position that the USA was with the Cuban affair.
Why should the USA had the sole right to protect itself from afar. You do not think that any of the Asia interests the USA have are for the benefit of Asians!!
Willy
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Plus they have never gone to war in any other country.
Willy
Chinese Invasion of Vietnam
February 1979
China's relations with Vietnam began to deteriorate seriously in the mid-1970s. After Vietnam joined the Soviet-dominated Council for Mutual Economic Cooperation (Comecon) and signed the Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation with the Soviet Union in 1978, China branded Vietnam the "Cuba of the East" and called the treaty a military alliance. Incidents along the Sino-Vietnamese border increased in frequency and violence. In December 1978 Vietnam invaded Cambodia, quickly ousted the pro-Beijing Pol Pot regime, and overran the country.
China's twenty-nine-day incursion into Vietnam in February 1979 was a response to what China considered to be a collection of provocative actions and policies on Hanoi's part. These included Vietnamese intimacy with the Soviet Union, mistreatment of ethnic Chinese living in Vietnam, hegemonistic "imperial dreams" in Southeast Asia, and spurning of Beijing's attempt to repatriate Chinese residents of Vietnam to China.
In February 1979 China attacked along virtually the entire Sino-Vietnamese border in a brief, limited campaign that involved ground forces only. The Chinese attack came at dawn on the morning of 17 February 1979, and employed infantry, armor, and artillery. Air power was not employed then or at any time during the war. Within a day, the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) had advanced some eight kilometers into Vietnam along a broad front. It then slowed and nearly stalled because of heavy Vietnamese resistance and difficulties within the Chinese supply system. On February 21, the advance resumed against Cao Bang in the far north and against the all-important regional hub of Lang Son. Chinese troops entered Cao Bang on February 27, but the city was not secured completely until March 2. Lang Son fell two days later. On March 5, the Chinese, saying Vietnam had been sufficiently chastised, announced that the campaign was over. Beijing declared its "lesson" finished and the PLA withdrawal was completed on March 16.
The Sino-Indian Border Conflict 1962
Unable to reach political accommodation on disputed territory along the 3,225-kilometer-long Himalayan border,[7] the Chinese launched simultaneous offensives in Ladakh and across the McMahon Line on 20 October 1962, coinciding with the Cuban Missile Crisis. Chinese troops advanced over Indian forces in both theatres, capturing Rezang la in Chushul in the western theatre, as well as Tawang in the eastern theatre. The war ended when the Chinese declared a ceasefire on 20 November 1962, and simultaneously announced its withdrawal from the disputed area.
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Willy what American buildup in Asia? Are you talking about Okinawa, Guam.And Saipan?If so They are closing the bases in Okinawa.And moving the personell to Guam.And reactivating the base on Saipan.Saipan and Guam are both American territories.As far as I know they are not sending any more military personell to Asia.The fact of the matter is.They are realeasing some personell early.Because they have no place to house them anymore.
As far as UN peacekeeping forces.If your country belongs to the U.N.Then yes it supplies troops to the U.N peacekeeping force.I think there is only about half a dozen countries left in the world.that don't belong to the U.N.
why do Chinese Fishing boats need a military escort.It is s because they are trying to fish in other countries Territorial waters.And they are trying to lay claim to a group of islands that are closer.To Indonesia,and Vietnam.They have all built little military outposts on these little islands.That spend half of the year under water.The reason China wants these islands is because.There is a big oil reserve.Under these islands.And there is supposed to be good fishing there.Willy I remind you again.It takes allot of oil and food to support a population of 3.2 billion screaming Chinese.Did you ask your wife if she has ever eaten rice grown in China.My wife never has.
Most of the bigger nations do protect themselves from afar.Ever heard of the British west indies.Do you know there is Russian troops all threw eastern Europe.There is a bunch of island in the Caribbean owned by the French.There is a bunch of island in the Carabeans.Owned by the Brits.That is partly what the U.N peace keeping forces do.
I know this is kind of ancient history.But I wanted to ad to what Rhonald posted.China used to invade Japan all the time.They invaded Tibet.Sent the Dali lama in exile.The Chinese troops still have running firefights with The Tibetans.They throw flaming pop bottels at Chinese troops.Smash a few store windows.Kind of like the I.R.A. did against the Brits.Make you wonder why.The Tibetans and the I.R.A. are so pissed off for so many years.
When Myanmar got wiped out by a Typhoon.The Americans along with the Brits and the Chinese.Tried to get aid into the country to help the people.Myanmars government wouldn't let them send aid.Unless Rangoon military was involved in distributing the supplies.So what happend to the millions of dollars worth of Aid that countries sent there.It all went to the government.
Willy I just heard that the British priminister has just declared war against Brits with black hair and glasses.British solders have orders to shoot any Brit.That wears glasses or have dark colored hair.Do you want are help to stop this madness.Or do you think that your little ragtag resistance fighters.With primitive weapons. no heavy artillery,No jets.Is going to stop.One of the best equipped and well fed armies in the world.
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C'mon Rhonald they were not Wars.
If they are wars then the USA action was war when it invaded Grenada a member of the British Commonwealth.
Plus you are talking about events that occurred before the 'New China' emerged in the 1980's.
New China has only been around for 30 years and look how powerful financially they have come. Look how they are opening up to the World in recent years.
Just image what the next ten years will bring and the ten years after. I would like to be here to see it in twenty year time but just imagine what a grouchy old bastard I would be at 90!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
Maxx your talking rubbish as there are only 1.4 billion Chinese and India is just becoming the country with the biggest population in the world. Will they be the next threat to the USA. Have you not seen the numbers of US troops being sent to Australia and how ships of US fleet is continually calling at Hong Kong. Tibet in the Chinese eyes is part of China. If the US was having problems in far of Guam they would also send in the troops just as UK did with the Maldives.
It looks to me as if China has taken the place of Russia as the likely enemy of the USA.
Why is America, UK and others in Afghanistan - Geologist have said that it probably has the biggest mineral resources of any country.
Willy
PS I would prefer not to have help from American soldiers. For a start I would not trust one with a gun. Plus I still live with the ww2 joke associated with Americans - that they were Over Paid, Over Sexed and Over Here.
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Plus you are talking about events that occurred before the 'New China' emerged in the 1980's.
By 1987 China had stationed nine armies (approximately 400,000 troops) in the Sino-Vietnamese border region, including one along the coast. It had also increased its landing craft fleet and was periodically staging amphibious landing exercises off Hainan Island, across from Vietnam, thereby demonstrating that a future attack might come from the sea.
Low-level conflict continued along the Sino-Vietnamese border as each side conducted artillery shelling and probed to gain high spots in the mountainous border terrain. Border incidents increased in intensity during the rainy season, when Beijing attempted to ease Vietnamese pressure against Cambodian resistance fighters.
Since the early 1980s, China pursued what some observers described as a semi-secret campaign against Vietnam that was more than a series of border incidents and less than a limited small-scale war. The Vietnamese called it a "multifaceted war of sabotage." Hanoi officials have described the assaults as comprising steady harassment by artillery fire, intrusions on land by infantry patrols, naval intrusions, and mine planting both at sea and in the riverways. Chinese clandestine activity (the "sabotage" aspect) for the most part was directed against the ethnic minorities of the border region. According to the Hanoi press, teams of Chinese agents systematically sabotaged mountain agricultural production centers as well as lowland port, transportation, and communication facilities. Psychological warfare operations were an integral part of the campaign, as was what the Vietnamese called "economic warfare"--encouragement of Vietnamese villagers along the border to engage in smuggling, currency speculation, and hoarding of goods in short supply.
C'mon Rhonald they were not Wars.
Yes they are not as direct in your face as the USA but what they have been doing, you could call a stealth war. Which ever nation is the current super power of the world, through out history has usually used direct blunt means. Rome did it, the English Empire did it, and the USA is doing it. Sometime Willy I think you do not see that any world power, emerging or established, have thorns hidden below the rose buds.
I agree with you that they have become more open, and hopefully all nations will learn that with technology where it is today, that muscle flexing should only be done at the beach, or at the Olympics.
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I am familiar with VietNam long ago and I have always maintained an interest of sorts. that Chinese invasion basically ended as a war of attrition. kudos to the Viet's on their successful invasion of Pol Pot's Cambodia or do we conveniently disregard that asshole murderer.
when it came down to it I think the Chinese were humiliated by the invasion.
Times have changed in 30 years http://www.youtube.com/embed/1vA4T1wfJLE?rel=0 (http://www.youtube.com/embed/1vA4T1wfJLE?rel=0) I willingly surrender to the superior Chinese force.
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I willingly surrender to the superior Chinese force.
I agree with you that they have become more open, and hopefully all nations will learn that with technology where it is today, that muscle flexing should only be done at the beach, or at the Olympics.
Or as John pointed out Military might flexing by Soldier girls in Skirts.
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I agree with you that they have become more open, and hopefully all nations will learn that with technology where it is today, that muscle flexing should only be done at the beach, or at the Olympics.
Well I have mellowed over night having just seen the London Olympic opening ceremony. Going to watch it through again as I cannot believe what I have just seen. See you all in 4 hours.
Willy
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Willy are you drinking Chinese moonshine again?.Have you lived in your little world for to long.And cannot see past the front door.Read a history book.Read what your own Winston Churchill worte.If it hadn't ben for the lend lease act.And for the Americans.You would be speaking German or Russian by now.And probably still stumbeling along under a communist goverment.Oh yeah combat pay for a American GI was like 50.00 a month. Thats pretty cheap for putting your life on the line.For a bunch of people who don't appreciate it.31.4 billion dollars.In aid and materials is what the U.S sent to England durring WW 2.Over 120,000 U.S service personell were killed.Fighting in Europe.
I don't know why I bother trying to teach the uneducated.How the world really works.do you think that London rebuilt its self after the war.Do you not think that a country.That had over a thousand years of history.Wouldn't be pissed off when some Army invaded it.
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I turned 18 underway on this boat on my second deterrent patrol during the Cold War. I can sympathize with David E's father because we had a similar situation happen to us concerning a delayed stand-down order during battle stations. I went on to receive my dolphins at the age of 18.5 and completed a total of 7 deterrent patrols before transferring to a sub-tender and making a cruise around the world.
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Maxx I never get involved in anything like this type of subject but your coming over as an a...hole THE LEND LEASE ACT you say was the reason USA CAME IN TO 'help' us BRITS. if it had not been for the Jap attack at Pearl Harbour your lot would have continued to sit back and do nothing like you did for the first few years
I'm sure your president wanted to come in earlier.. and the lend lease act was just an excuse to help pave the way.
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Maxx. You are too easy to wind up. Its no fun anymore. ::)
I do not have to read one sided accounts as I lived the war years. :'(
Willy
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Rob read a book learn a little history.The lend lease act started a year before the Japanese attacked pearl harbor.The reason the lend lease act was put into effect.Was because the Brits.Were the only nation left standing against Germany.And they were only going to last another couple of months.Winston Churchill.Came to Roosevelt.And said hey we need some help.Roosevelt said hey no problem.And started the lend lease act.Roosevelt also sent aid to Canada,Free France,And the Soviet union.
Rob if I come over as a asshole.It is probably because I'm tired of you ingrates.Always blaming all your problems on the Americans.You all need to take responsibility for your own actions.And stop blaming the Americans.We are a great bunch of people when you get to know us.
Willy one sided war accounts?I got most of this from Winston Churchill himself.So I don't know where you are coming from.willy if you were born in or before the war years.That make you Somewhere in your early eighties.Or your late 70.Not even close to what your profile says.So whats up with that?
P.S did you Brits know that the Great Winston Churchill was Half American.His mother was American.And he was Educated in Dublin Ireland.He lived in the states for a few years before he joined English politics.So I guess that dispels the notion of great English tenacity
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if it had not been for the Jap attack at Harbour your lot would have continued to sit back and do nothing like you did for the first few years
I'm sure your president wanted to come in earlier.. and the lend lease act was just an excuse to help pave the way.
The problem of being the Alpha Male country is that when you take immediate action others say you are too aggressive ,when the Alpha Male stays neutral you get comments like "sit back and do nothing". The USA foreign policy is to do with its own self interest, but somehow others expect a morale perfection from the USA that other Historical super powers never seemed to be graded upon.
Weather the entry of the USA into WW2 led to the win, I do not know as maybe the war would have been won but with more years of misery and toil. Once the USA entered, the war was just about guaranteed to turn out as it did.
Yes the USA helped out big time, but without the other nations also involved, I am sure the USA could not have done it alone. It was a team effort on all fronts.
This topic is about China's future in the next ten years, not the USA foreign policy. Now we can all see that Willy has grown found of his adopted country and refuses to see trends in China's foreign policy and defends by redirecting our focus upon the USA's sometimes miss guided policy, but we have also seen China stumble here too. Since China has become a world power with vested interest in world affairs, world opinion could sway their own foreign policy if major economies decide to become protective and turn inwards.
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Rhonald is correct. The main reason the US didn't jump into the war early is they didn't have the equipment or the manpower. All the military equipment was WW1 issued and they were sending that over to England.
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What Vince was replying to was what I had just edited out of my prior post, since I was quoting two other articles.
The United States demobilized their armed forces after WW1.
When Germany attacked Poland in Sept. 1939, the U.S. armed forces was very small, by June of 1940, Germany had already occupied all of Europe. The only thing the U.S. could do in 1940 was to send over supplies, equipment, and a few volunteers to England, which they did do.
America is best thought of as the Empire of Liberty. Keeping that in mind, the elected government and the president etc., must therefore pay close attention to what the people want and are saying.
At the outbreak of WW2 in 1939 - the vast majority of Americans wanted nothing what-so-ever to do with a war in Europe - Fortress America was the watch-word of the day and to Hell with anyone else.
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Re: China - Next Ten Years?
All I have seen today is an America bashing, British pissing contest.
I have been getting a world history lesson of the two world wars and American foreign policy.
I thought I would be treated to an essay on the future of China for the next ten years as it pertains to economic and military power and national policies.
Max was on the right track a few days ago. Give me something good to read.
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The below is in part from this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers)
Geoffrey Murphay's China: The Next Superpower (2008) argued that while the potential for China is high, this is fairly perceived only by looking at the risks and obstacles China faces in managing its population and resources. The political situation in China may become too fragile to survive into superpower status according to Susan Shirk in China: Fragile Superpower (2008).[32] Other factors that could constrain China's ability to become a superpower in the future include: limited supplies of energy and raw materials, questions over its innovation capability, inequality and corruption, and risks to social stability and the environment. Minxin Pei argued in 2010 that China is not a superpower and it will not be one anytime soon and argued that China faces daunting political and economic challenges.[33] In 2012 she argued that China, despite using economic power to influence some nations, has few real friends or allies and is surrounded by potentially hostile nations. This situation could improve if regional territorial disputes would be resolved and China would participate in an effective regional defense system that would reduce the fears of its neighbors. Alternatively, a democratization of China would dramatically improve foreign relations with many nations.[34] Amy Chua stated in 2007 that whether a country has enough pull to bring immigrants is an important quality for a superpower. She also wrote that China lacks the pull to bring scientists, thinkers, and innovators from other countries as immigrants. However, she believed that China made up for this with its own diaspora, and said that size and resources for them are unparalleled.[35]
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There are no winners in this war exercise. Since many quote WW2 I did the Wikipedia “thing”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties)
It does appear the Poles suffered the most (%) being sandwiched between Germany & Russia.
For the eh of it, check out non- combatants.
When you really think about it, there are no actual winners when hostilities have ceased. There are always the causal circumstances that lead up and if you explore that precedent it might give you a better idea why shit happens.
The current fiasco is the S. China Sea. It makes sense America's involvement with the surrounding China's surrounding neighbors. Think of it this way, what near neighbor sides with China? I do not think there is even one. What would happen if the U.S. did the “que sera sera” in the Western Pacific theater?
I, for one, like things the way they go. The Chinese own our financial strength to the tune of over 3trillion$.
The “West” owns the China's neighbors “good will” and the enforcement of the shipping corridors in international waters (all mercantile counties). This enforcement must be kept in abeyance until the Chinese fully recognize the legitimate sovereignty of it's neighbors, especially in the S. China Sea, in regards to all “territorial”, “archipelagic”, “exclusive economic zones (most important)”.
The only logical approach is compromise, of which, China is so hesitantly resistant to.
Still the spectre of U.S. politics fucks things up http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/07/16/gop-opposition-scuttles-law-of-sea-treaty/ (http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/07/16/gop-opposition-scuttles-law-of-sea-treaty/)
...the “heavy hand” of fat assed monkey wrenchers on the so- called “right side” of the aisle, always the proponents of “something for nothing” because we can. Sort of like China's claim to the whole of the S. China seabed.
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Rob read a book learn a little history.
Rob if I come over as a asshole.It is probably because I'm tired of you ingrates.Always blaming all your problems on the Americans.You all need to take responsibility for your own actions.And stop blaming the Americans.We are a great bunch of people when you get to know us.
Maxx for your information my DEGREE IS IN HISTORY....
To me you came over just like your answer to me like your answer .where do you get off calling anyone an ingrate, Most American come over exactly like you Maxx too big for their boots and the great 'WE ARE.'
aLL i WAS TRYING TO SAY (POSSIBLY WRONGLY) THAT THE LEND LEASE ACT WAS NOT THE REASON YOU CAME IN TO 'AID' US As Rhonald pointed out
'America is best thought of as the Empire of Liberty. Keeping that in mind, the elected government and the president etc., must therefore pay close attention to what the people want and are saying.
At the outbreak of WW2 in 1939 - the vast majority of Americans wanted nothing what-so-ever to do with a war in Europe - Fortress America was the watch-word of the day and to Hell with anyone else.
So from an outsiders point of view it would seem you only came in because of Pearl Harbour
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So Robbie what your telling me Is that you are not and at any point in time ben involved in Bashing Americans.After all they done for you.And the rest of Europe.Threw 2 WW.Interesting.So what doe's that make you?If not a ingrate.Maybe a hypocrite.
Rhonald I do apologise.I never meant to make lite of Canada,Free France.Russia.Or any other country contribution to the war effort.Without the help of are Allies.The U.S. and England.Would of had a much longer war.With a much higher casualty rate.
David E I know you are reading this and laughing your head off.Watching the Americans and the Brits go at it.My only excuse is it is something to do on a slow weekend.I have not forgot the Sacrifices the Aussie made.Or the New Zealanders.If it hadn"t ben for the Australions.Slowing the Japanese down.And paying the price with there lives.The Japanese would have probably landed troops In Hawaii.And cost allot more lives then it did.
History lesson again at the end of WW 2. 2 out of 3 Australian men were either killed or wounded.You could go to Australia after WW 2 and have your pick of the girls.which is what allot of Americans did.I used to have a pen pal in Australia.Her dad was a American.Her grandfather was a American Marine.On leave in Australia.He liked Australia so much he went back to the states.Picked up his wife and kid.And moved the whole family to Australia.The last time I talked to her.They were living in Queensland.And she considered herself fool blooded Aussie
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No Maxx...I am not laughing my head off....I see a lot of words from a lot of people that are full of hot air !!! This makes me puke, not laugh.
On one hand we have the Brits....been around as a Nation for something like 1000 years, although we must not forget that the Romans did much to turn this nation of mud-painted savages into civilised people, without the Roman conquest of Britain and Europe, it is difficult to envisage how they could have progressed.
The British Empire was up there with the best (!!!!) and biggest, certainly it was up there with the cruelist....gorging itself on the wealth of conquered nations and subjugating and in fact eliminating native populations numbered in countless millions.
Most "ancient" European Nations went through this phase...French, Dutch, Portugese, Germans and so on. But they all had their day and as all evil Empires do, they eventually crashed and burned. But they cant forget that once they were great, and want the rest of the World to remember this, but dont have the wherewithall to make it stick any more.
Us recent "colonial" States (Aus, NZ, USA, Canada etc etc) and many emerging economies (China, India, Some South American States and maybe some other asian States) are never let forget that we have only been around for a coupla hundred years and thus cannot have a seat at the table of ancient , bankrupt, finished Empires.
In the final crunch, America HAD to go to war in 1940...Pearl Harbour was a Nartional insult of the most dastardly nature and Japan NEEDED to be stopped. The rest of the World was in no shape to stop them...they were not really able to stop Hitler and he was close to getting the V3 in production, and would carry the first German nuke into England, ( the uranium being made from the Heavy Water processed in Norway by the German Scientists) and later as an intercontinental capable missile, he would have had a go at America.
Any way...enough of that, back to Willy !!!!....he is a mischevious bugger, loves yank peoples chain and see how they react, I am not sure if I believe 10% of his postulations...... :o :o
He reminds me of an ancient drag queen, lording it over everyone from the perspective of a faded past life, having bolted from the awful reality of it...but then again, many of us (including MOST Americans and Most Aussies and Canadians ) bolted from somewhere into a new life sometime ago;
So...people in glass houses should not throw stones !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Again, long ago.
The luxury of 2 oceans kept war off a reluctant America. The forum fails to say that on the advent of WW2 most Americans were the 1st born generation of European immigration. It is understandable since American immigration was fashioned by war, by famine, by the “opportunities” afforded by a new life, a life that is “free”, far from the tyrannies or misfortunes that drove them away from their native lands.
I think it safe to say, most people did not wish to leave their homeland by just “pure choice” and this problem of an unstable Europe was something their parents had left behind years ago.
People forget the Depression and how that affected national thought. Basically, America healed from the difficulties of the depression, sat back the war & waited until Pearl, the luxury of 2 oceans that had finally became vulnerable (as I recalled it was Germany that declared war on the U.S. after the Japanese attack on Hawaii).
If anyone thinks America pure & simple, some companies profited immensely. If one company should not fail in America, it would be G.M.
G.M. played “both” sides of the war effort. I noticed that Wikipedia has been G.M. sanitized, but for years the history played accurately well on Wikipedia (I just use G.M. as an example of 1 American corporation. There were many others). I guess national sensitivities with the G.M. Bailout just a few years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_General_Motors#World_War_II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_General_Motors#World_War_II)
“..By mainstream accounts, General Motors' German subsidiary (Adam Opel AG) was outside the control of the American parent corporation during World War II. Some conspiracy theorists posit that this was a hoax, with the American GM as a secret war profiteer on both sides, but Alfred Sloan's memoir, for example,[13] presents a description of lost control that is much more Occam-compliant than the fringe alternatives. However, even without any such conspiracy, GM found criticism for its tax avoidance around the Opel topic. During the war, GM declared it had abandoned its German subsidiary, and took a complete tax write-off worth "approximately $22.7 million", yet after the war, GM collected some $33 million in "war reparations" because the Allies had bombed its German facilities..”; also, see “Criticism 1930s Germany”, re: "Alfred P. Sloan, James D. Mooney, John T. Smith and Graeme K. Howard.
http://www.jewishjournal.com/articles/page3/hitlers_carmaker_how_general_motors_helped_jumpstart_the_third_reichs4/ (http://www.jewishjournal.com/articles/page3/hitlers_carmaker_how_general_motors_helped_jumpstart_the_third_reichs4/)
Personally I do not feel Willey's or Rob's comments were all that far off base. After all, what they write is their own take on something that happened long ago. Something that “effected” what we have today on the International scene. The Chinese may call all this “fate”.
I think we should revisit China, Next Ten Years?
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OK JohnB...let's get back on track...China in the next 10 years....is my (or anybody's) GUESS any better than any other, because anybody who even begins to predict that scenario is kidding themselves !!!
The Country is starved of resources (apart from people) has oodles of cash (produced by the thrifty savings of billions of low paid workers) has artificially maintained a low standard of living for the majority so it can dominate trade with CHEAP products.
The Country Leadership has deliberately kept the truth about International happenings from its population by ruthless censorship and vicious actions against the so-called "reformers (Tianmin (spelling ???)Sq etc) Has manipulated exchange rates to artificially prop up its competitive position.
The Country MUST grow at a rate of 6% + each year just to stand still, despite the one-child policy, population growth is astounding....adding hugely to the demand for resources...energy and food and living space. The mass exodus from rural into urban living is continually degrading China's ability to feed itself.
Despite ruthless censorship the population is slowly, slowly beginning to see all the "goodies" we enjoy in the Western World (sad for them !!!) and they all want a slice of it now.
Corruption at all levels is rampant, the rich are getting vastly richer...and the poor are as usual getting very little.
In the next 10 years the lid has got to blow off that little lot somehow. By revolution, by stealth, by policy...I dont know, nor does anybody. But one thing is clear, history suggests that Communism is not sustainable over the long haul and ultimately crashes. The Chinese Government has managed to keep the lid on all this for a long time...but I fear the time is coming when a drastic revision of China's internal politics is inevitable....what the outcome will be is anybody's guess...but it wont be pretty !!! especially when China holds so much of the World fiscal resources in "worthless" Foreign Government Bonds., which will be the outcome when Europe crashes financially in the near future.
And if we all stopped quoting bloody rubbish from Wikewhatsit and Goooglethingy and used our OWN minds just for once and have an opinion that purely belonged to each of us as individuals, we would be a lot better off.
How come every time somebody leaps in and quotes these sources it is automatically assumed that these are the Gospel truths...we are like Lemmings (or the Pied Piper of Hamelin) .........what happened to personal opinions and thoughts ??????????????????????
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This could be my last comment on this thread. We will see 8)
Maxx your write Winston Churchill was half American - he was also a journalist that wrote for newspapers. Two things that go against him!!! ;D He was a great orator. He said what he knew people wanted to hear, most of all he was a polititian. He went to places were he received publicity just like modern days ones.
Your views are somewhat in line with Churchills. That is after all this time we should be so grateful to the American people that they can piss on the world and no one can say a thing about it because we have to be so eternally grateful what your American Ancesters did 70 years ago. This comes into play on many other threads that we two have issues over.
I say ancesters because apart from me and possibly one other there is no one else on this forum that was alive during any part of WW2. :-[
No I do not have to be in my late 70's or early 80s to have been alive during that war. But I was a child born in the War Years and had vivid recollections of what I saw when my memory began to take note of things.
How long do we have to be grateful for? How long does gratefulness last. Does it go back as far as when the first three ships loaded with British west country folk landed on the East Coast and from there on were known as the Pilgrim Fathers.
Are you not grateful to us English for having the foresight to set off and create such a place that your European ancestors later arrived in droves to start new lifes where they were in the main the bottom of the heap in their own countries. Are you not grateful that we gave you people like George Washington and many others? Your country was started on the backbone of the English.
So Maxx just how long do we have to extend this hand of gratefulness to times that none of us on here actually were around to remember. I remember seeing the rows of houses destroyed by nightly bombing raids. But have no knowledge of the actual events.
Grateful. I remember this kid, who lived next door, who used to get beaten and abused by his father all time. His father has instilled in him that he did it because the boy was not grateful for having been born.
David E I think that you about got things right on this one, as usual. ;)
Willy
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Willy, I would not be too put out.
In “Civics” classes long time ago, the basis of American law was Judeo- Christian, English Common Law that was based on the existing social mores of the day. English “Common Law” predates the introduction of Christianity in the British isles.
So, I can say without any doubt, that America can thank England for our great system of law. It can be further surmised that England, despite it's abuses in the colonial era, left in place the best form of governance of all the colonial powers of that conquered world long ago.
http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/20978-why-wasnt-the-us-like-other-western-powers-who-carved-out-china/ (http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/20978-why-wasnt-the-us-like-other-western-powers-who-carved-out-china/)
I stumbled on this today. It is an interesting take on the partitioning of China by the world powers.
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Hey Willy probably till 2006 that's when England finally payed back the money the Americans lent them.
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Hey Willy probably till 2006 that's when England finally payed back the money the Americans lent them.
Thank you Maxx - at least you confirmed that that debt has been repaid.
Willy
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if it has been repaid, WHY should we still feel grateful?
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He probably means us English. ;D
You Scots still owe the world too much. So be grateful. ;D ;D ;D ;D
When you get Scottish Independence you will want in on July 4th to say on expenses. ;D ;D
Willy
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Willy, I would not be too put out.
In “Civics” classes long time ago, the basis of American law was Judeo- Christian, English Common Law that was based on the existing social mores of the day. English “Common Law” predates the introduction of Christianity in the British isles.
So, I can say without any doubt, that America can thank England for our great system of law. It can be further surmised that England, despite it's abuses in the colonial era, left in place the best form of governance of all the colonial powers of that conquered world long ago.
MMMMM...not exactly true, English Common Law is based on the Model introduced by the Romans (after their conquest of Britain about 50 BC) Roman Law at the time was hearsay, there was no written Constitution and no formal books on Law (other than the fragmants remaining of the Sybilline verses that were held in the Temple of Jupiter and only read for advice on dire occasions)
The Senate enacted Laws as they saw fit and these were formally engraved on bronze as "caveats" to existing practices. Thus Common Law was born...the Law of precedent.
Post the Roman era, Britain had no Laws...it wasn't called the Dark Ages for nothing !!!
But ultimately the mixture of Common Law and the Law of Precedent became implanted in the British Justice System. copying most of the Roman version....thank you Julius Caesar ;D ;D
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So happy to get your ideas about China's future... :'( Now I am going out a play in traffic. ::) ::)