China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => The Campfire => Topic started by: Willy The Londoner on December 14, 2012, 08:37:49 pm
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Another terrible event to wake up to. Like many others my thoughts are with those who have lost so many children, those who have lost brothers, sister, nephews, nieces and grandchildren and of course wife's and partners.
While I give my prayers to all I will comment no more at this stage on my thoughts of gun ownership in the USA.
Willy
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http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/12/14/22-kids-1-adult-injured-in-knife-attack-outside-chinese-school/?intcmp=trending#ixzz2F5NVdvDU (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/12/14/22-kids-1-adult-injured-in-knife-attack-outside-chinese-school/?intcmp=trending#ixzz2F5NVdvDU)
I feel the same way about knife ownership in China!
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I am sure that many of us are thinking about what happened in Connecticut today. Such a tragedy.
Willy I agree with you in that this really isn't the time to talk about guns in America. What I would like to do is turn the attention to another issue not talked about in public. That is the issue of mental illness and it's contribution to these tragedies. I haven't seen any reports on this yet but I will bet that this young man was on antidepressants. There is a direct link with other tragedies like this and the use of antidepressants. They are also linked to suicide and murder.
The political and law enforcement worlds do not want to discuss or link this to these kinds of things. I think it is time that they look at it from all angles and get resolution in this matter.
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What a mess. I know this small town. I have been there many times (before I moved south). Sandy Hook and Newtown are two separate towns (been to both) next to each other so I have no idea why they say Newtown when it's Sandy Hook? It's a beautiful area. Not much of a town. If you drive through it would take about a minute or less.
But I also heard of an attack on children by a knife toting man on China. Doesn't matter about gun control if it's going to happen they use what they can.
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But I also heard of an attack on children by a knife toting man on China. Doesn't matter about gun control if it's going to happen they use what they can.
This rubbish about knife toting men is nothing like a deranged person with 2 automatic pistols. How many bullets can be fired in the number of times it takes some one to be killed by a knife. Guns that once again were lawfully held by a family member.
Knife crimes rarely ever take place in a premeditated way as these gun attacks are planned. When people are in a rage they will use any weapon to hand.
Willy
Willy
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This whole thing (in Conn. shootings) is unsettling. Why a woman that worked as a teacher had several guns with a mentally ill young man in the home? I just don't know or understand that.
They have not actually said what guns they were. You will hear "automatic pistols" or "Military type guns" which they are not. An automatic gun is against the law, they are Semi-automatic, which means the trigger has to be pulled for each round (shot). Not that you required an answer but How many bullets can be fired? depends on the gun, from 8 to 15 average.
Guns aren't the problem, deranged people are. As you said Willy, when people are in a rage they will use any weapon on hand.
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The common denominator of many of these terrible shootings is mental illness like Shaun said. I personally think there is many people walking the streets that need to be locked up for everyone's safety. This will never happen because the liberals will foam at the mouth and the AFLC will fight it tooth and nail, claiming the civil rights of the mentally ill are being violated. I think that the schools and the socialist society should quit handing out participation trophies and brainwashing children that everybody is a winner, maybe then the children would be able to mature mentally at an early age and perhaps without medication and violence be able to cope when reality slaps them in the face. Anyone who has been deemed mentally unstable or potentially unstable should be handled in whatever manner would render them neutral threats to themselves and the general public, I think they should not have the right to sign their self out of hospitals and mental wards after 72 hours and against doctors orders. The only people that actually sweat the against doctors orders are the people who responsible for the hospital bills, since leaving ADO's enables the insurance company to refuse payment. We need to regulate nut cases since they will use ANYTHING to kill people. I wish I did live in a world that nothing bad ever happens, but that world is not here so until world peace becomes reality, hate and crime disappear completely I will hold on to my means of self/family defense. Like I have said before and will say again " I would rather be judged by 12,than carried by 6 " So until you can absolutely guarantee my family's and my safety I will hang onto my guns. The only people that actually follow gun laws anyhow are law-abiding citizens so disarming them only means more opportunity for easy victims for criminals ( Note, criminals generally as a rule blow off laws ie: possession, use and sales.) The last time a Ruling party attempted to force laws and other directives onto Americans was instrumental in our country becoming independent of unfair laws and rulers. It does seem many people do agree with controlling guns though ie; I bet Assad is a very firm believer in citizens access to guns, and generally any dictator that has practiced or used genocide to further their cause, policy, and or religion. We live in a violent times and it is getting worse, the one fact that many avoid mentioning is that a lot of these tragedies occur in states with so-called strict gun laws. That tells me that the law is not the major problem, but not enforcing current laws on the books already is. It is against the law for convicted felons to possess or own firearms in Georgia, but I hear everyday where another crack dealer is busted with crack and a gun. he has nothing to worry about now , his street cred just went up 10 points and he gets to catch up his soaps,weightlifting, and hone his basketball skills further. Until they start adding meaningful penalties to existing laws I do not want to hear about new laws.
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Well here is a thought.......why is it every time that one of these terrible incidents happen it is always in a school, post office or somewhere where innocent children and families are and never in a prison or gaol? Simple answer they have gun controls in place in those places. I heard on the TV today that the gun lobby is very powerful in the US, maybe it is time for people need to re-evaluate their thinking and priorities. Rob raises a very valid point we need to start reteaching kids that not everyone will come first in things and that does not make you a failure but as a motivator to try harder next time.
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Whatever arguements and statistics are placed before the "anti-gun" nuts I doubt that you will ever shake their view that a ban on privately owned firearms would automatically eliminate gun related incidents.
These are the same people who fought and won the legal bans on:
Alcohol (Prohibition)
Marijuana
Hard drugs
Wife beating
Driving under the influence
Speeding
Parking in a no-park zone
Urinating in a Public Place
etc, etc , etc, etc, etc.........
......and ten thousand more meaningless laws that do zip towards addressing the real problem....merely serve to assist somebody's re-election, or provide Public Servants with meaningless work enforcing unenforceable Laws !!!!
I cannot think of a single issue where the actual enactment of a law has resulted in an elimination of the "crime"
But as usual, all the restrictions are vigorously fought for by the vovcal minority...the rest of us just sigh and bear it.....
When all these Laws fail to do anything real....do we hear the vocal minority having the balls to stand up and say "we were wrong"....no we dont, they just blame some other factor and lobby hard for more Laws.....
And for Willy...I put to you the question....what is the greater crime, to be shot by a bullet or to be stabbed with a knife or to be condemmed to die from long term drug abuse (provided illegally by "pushers" who dont give a flying f##### for any type of law), or to be a wife beaten to death with a golf club by a crazy husband.......and how does quantity ever get close to figuring in such a ghastly statistic ?
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And for Willy...I put to you the question....what is the greater crime, to be shot by a bullet or to be stabbed with a knife or to be condemned to die from long term drug abuse (provided illegally by "pushers" who dont give a flying f##### for any type of law), or to be a wife beaten to death with a golf club by a crazy husband.......and how does quantity ever get close to figuring in such a ghastly statistic ?
For once I actually agree with most things said. There are many way of killing people, and unfortunately I have seen the results of most in my time. Those were the days when the only counselling you received was being told 'Go get a cup of tea' Deaths of children, in particular, always bring back the flashes of what confronted me in my days in the police service. But people, deranged or not, only plan such events as occurred yesterday when they have access to such fire power.
To protect your self why do you need the weapons that are available today. Is it the 'mine is bigger than yours' complex.
Willy
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It's not the wild west here in the US. If I went outside with or fired my gun for no reason I would be arrested. Having a concealed license means that, concealed. Not that your walking into a store with a holster strapped to your side. It cannot be seen.
Why the movies, post office, etc. is because most are making a statement of some kind are looking to die and want to be notorious most likely.
Hearing the latest as they dig deeper into the shooter and his family. I think the mother wasn't all good in the head either. She bought these guns because she did not like how the world was going and was getting ready for "doomsday". She would take her off balanced son to gun ranges and teach him how to shoot. She wasn't a teacher or aid and had nothing to do with the school. She got a nice settlement from the divorce and stopped working.
I do think some guns should not be available to anybody. Sorry, but I do believe this. There is no need for a average person to have a high powered gun. They don't know how to use it correctly anyway.
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I can't remember the name of the town in Arizona.They passed a law a couple of years ago.That made it illegal not to own a gun.The only exceptions to the law.Were people who were deemed unfit to own a firearm.Which meant convicted felons.People who had mental conditions.
It took about 6 months for the law to take effect.after the law was enacted.violant crimes dropped to Zero.There was no bank robbery's domestic disputes.Where a gun was used.No muggings,no car jacking.The reason this law works so well.Is because you have to be nuts to go at someone.Who you know has a gun stuffed in there purse or there pocket.
Look at it this way you are mad at the local cinema for raising the price of there popcorn.So you decide to go down and shoot up the local cinema.As soon as you sneak threw the back door.and jack a round into the chamber of your gun.20 people open up on you before you know what hit you.It is a huge deterrent when you know the playing field has ben leveled.And there is going to be very few victims.
I'm not a gun nut.I wish they would throw the damn things in the ocean and be done with them.But I'm also a realist.That knows no matter how many guns you throw in the ocean.Somebody somewhere is going to have a few.And have no problem using it on another human being
.That being said if New Mexico passed a law that said that you had to have a firearm.I would be one of the first to drive down to the gun store and buy a shiny new 45.And 2 new gun rigs.One shoulder holster.And one for my belt.And I would carry it everyday.With the knowledge that I will probably never have to use it.Because the guy who thinks I'm going to be his next victim.Knows that I have a gun.And I probably went to the state mandated safety course where they.Taught everyone in the class to use and store the weapon properly.
This kid that shot all those kids in that school.Had some mental problems.If the school had of followed it's own safety procedures we would not be having this discussion..If the security guards would of ben armed with something more lethal then pepper spray.We would not be having this discussion.
This kid is a poser looking for power and glory even in his own death.Never realizing that there is a tommarrow.And people will forget his name in a couple of months.The sad part is before this loser offed himself.He took 26 innocent lives.
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A good argument Maxx. But how many of those others in the Cinema would have been killed by 'friendly fire'. Even the police in another shoot out managed to kill a load of people who were just walking in the area. So someone out the the street and shoots at someone, so another pulls a gun to shoot back, another see the person shooting back so he draws his gun and shoots at him, and so on and so on. You are likely to end up with a lots and lots of people shooting each other.
Sorry but Americans have made America what it is today which means that unfortunately you are going to continue to have these mass shootings and loss of innocent lives.
Willy
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Willy Americans didn't create this mess, the American government did in their efforts have equal opportunity for everyone and to make a safe environment for everyone.
What we are seeing is an over reaction to mental patients being abused by mental hospitals. This went on for years and rather than straightening up mental institutions the government gave the patients the right to refuse treatment and hospitalization.
The reality of what happened in Connecticut is that the police and the school system knew this man had the ability to do this. He had threatened to do it twice before. The school put in a better security system and the police were suppose to be watching him. In reality he should have been institutionalized. He was labeled as a monster by one psychologist an no one did anything. So now who would you say is responsible for this travesty?
Also Willy you ought to give people more credit than you do. You said,
So someone out the the street and shoots at someone, so another pulls a gun to shoot back, another see the person shooting back so he draws his gun and shoots at him, and so on and so on. You are likely to end up with a lots and lots of people shooting each other.
Most people are smarter than that. I think most would hide first and evaluate before shooting. Yes you might as knuckle head every now and then but consider the Connecticut situation. If the principal had a gun she would more than likely be alive today and there would have been fewer dead maybe even none other than the mentally disturbed gunman. Better yet he would have been in an institution but the American government and bleeding heart people didn't deal with the issues in the mental institutions and instead closed them down and turning out the mentally disturbed into the general population.
This is just another fine example as to how our government is failing the American people and trying to put a band aid on the wrong wound.
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Huh?
"If the school had of followed it's own safety procedures ..If the security guards would of been armed with something more lethal then pepper spray."
The school did follow all of their safety procedures, he broke in because he wasn't let in and there wasn't any security guards it's an elementary school. But I understand what your getting at.
"knew this man had the ability to do this. He had threatened to do it twice before."
No idea where you heard this? It didn't happen. And "was labeled as a monster by one psychologist" After not before. Everyone just thought of him as maybe a little strange but there is no record or report of him doing anything wrong, anywhere.
Some of it is Media hype, making things up to make the news as if they have the inside story.
Another part of the news is where they are interviewing some that packed their backpacks and ready to survive the end of the world on the 21st? Where do they think they will be waiting it out?
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Vince exactly The doors weren't locked down like they were supposed to be.Security Guards.Every school in Farmington New Mexico has them.In Farmington.They have regular police officers assigned to the schools.They are not rent a cops.
Willy yes it is possible.But not probable.It would happen probably the way Shaun posted.The U.S military has ben keeping records of how many solders will shoot at the enemy since WW 1.The report said.In a high stress situation 7 out of twelve men will fire there weapons.While the other five will hide behind whatever.What I found entersting about the report.Was that of the 5 that didn't fire the first time.They Will use them the second time they get a chance.And of the original seven that used there weapons.Only 3 of them will.Return fire the second time.
The point I was trying to make earlier.Is if somebody knows.That the others around them can and will protect themselves it is a big deterrent.Take Vince and Robert for example.Lets say I'm going to break into there houses.And steal whatever they have.We all three live in states where the law says that you must own a gun.As a professional thief.Or a junkie.I know that it isn't a good idea to break into a house that I don't know.It is especially dangerous for me.When I know the occupants of the house.Have a loaded firearm.And they have ben to the safety classes and are well versed in the use of a handgun.It is a no win situation for me.I'll go someplace else to do my stealing.Where my odds are better.That the owners of the houses I'm going to rob are not armed.
The key word here is deterrent.
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Sorry Shaun but you are wrong. Americans keep letting these things happen. You allow your lawmakers to be in the pockets of the NRA and others. People got on the street about Wall Street but what about saving the life's of others. Your President is right enough is enough - 4 times he has been to place in his tenures for similar events. You cannot blame the Government for the situation that the people have created. Get on the streets and demand action!
And if the principal had a gun would she have shot the man? - I tell you it is not easy to pull that trigger the first time when pointing it at someone. Or should she had hidden and evaluated the situation?
So your answer is to put more guns in the hands of ordinary workers. It that is the answer then all I can say is 'What a great country you have'.
And Maxx you want more armed security guards in SCHOOLS! It was an armed security guard that killed so many in MacDonalds. Putting Cops into schools - wow that is such a good enviroment to bring up children. So how long would it be before a stressed up teacher or security guards guns down the pupils.
Security Guards in Schools, security guards in MacDonalds, etc etc. What a great place to live. God Bless America - perhaps that should be God Help America.
Willy
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This guy has gotten so much more publicity since this sad and tragic incident than anyone deserves. I read a quote supposedly from Morgan Freeman "It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.
CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.
You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."
Makes you think....
But I have to ask if you already have security guards everywhere to try and prevent these crimes from happening is it already too late? There I have said my piece and will say no more. I like America, not all of her values etc. but in general I think you have a lot of good in you, affirmative action will make you great.
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ANOTHER DUNBLANE...when is it all going to stop !!!! :o :o :o
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Maxx, I am not sure what "doors" you are referring? That school's principle implemented locked entrance doors where you had to get buzzed in, if they didn't know you you have to show a photo ID. They didn't let him in so he shot out a window. Or did you mean class room doors? Every place I know they are not locked unless there is a Lockdown of the school. Here in FL schools are lockdown all the time. The school in Conn. didn't have locks on the classroom doors. What happen was someone hit the PA mic on and the commotion was heard throughout the school so the teaches knew there was a problem from that.
The NRA? My "opinion" of them (not trying to agitate anyone so it's my opinion) they are just exaggerators with false promotions. I was a member. At the time the gov. was putting in place the Brady law (a 7 day wait) the NRA flooded my mail box with "it's just a ploy for the gov. to take all your guns" as this wasn't the case at all. So I said bye bye to the NRA.
I take the media with a grain of salt. I have seen to many of the news reports falsely covered. An example would be the town of the shootings. It's Sandy Hook, Newtown is a larger town next to it but the proceed to say they are in Newtown though they are not.
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Security Guards in Schools, security guards in MacDonalds, etc etc. What a great place to live. God Bless America - perhaps that should be God Help America.
Willy
I think that looking at gun violence is short sighted and does not tell the true tale for America's cultural body count. Besides America's obsession with guns, it is also known to love cars. In 2002 the USA had about 287 million people while the UK had almost 50 million. So the USA has about 5.75 more people than England. For 2002 from my searching, in the USA 42,821 people died from car accidents compared to 3,431 fatalities on England roads. That's a 12.5 ratio of car related deaths or twice as much as the population vetween the USA & UK. So we have in America more guns & more cars which both in turn results in higher mortality rates then the UK.
I believe it is something deeper in the American Psyche that drives this self destructive behaviour. Now certain European countries also have high mortality rates linked to car accidents, but like death by firearms in developed countries, the USA leads in death by car accidents. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_mot_veh_dea-health-motor-vehicle-deaths (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_mot_veh_dea-health-motor-vehicle-deaths)
So Willy Americans didn't create this mess, the American government did in their efforts have equal opportunity for everyone and to make a safe environment for everyone.
This is just another fine example as to how our government is failing the American people and trying to put a band aid on the wrong wound.
Shaun I see this so called blaming once again that it is the government's fault for the violence we see in America's society. No - I disagree with you. Just look at Hollywood and how it portrays the American gangster. They romanticise them and make them to be some how battling against the system. America has stricter regulation on nudity in movies and television then it does for violence.
America was built upon a pioneering spirit, of the strength of the individual against the wilderness. This in turn has made the mantra we hear from too many groups championing of the ones personal rights are more important then the collective.
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Vince schools must be set up different in the east then they are out here.Here 9 out of 10 schools have hollow steal doors.The make them that way because of the abuse the door takes everyday.And they are cheaper then a wooden door with glass in them.And they do lock them down.The news report I heard was that the keepper of the door keys.Hadn't botherd to lock the doors.If they had.Like you said it wouldn't of made any difference.With a glass and wooden door.
Jason Morgan Freemen didn't write it.Some guy on facebook wrote it.And it was so well written.That it went viral.And some where along the line.Morgan Freeman got credit for it.He is such a respected guy in the U.S. That everybody assumed it came from him.I have read the article a couple of time.And I tend to agree with what the guy had to say about the media.I was listening to the news today.While i was working.They were talking about the article.And maybe they had gone overboard with the coverage.Then the next news story.The media was standing outside the cemetery where they buried a couple of those kids today.And was trying to interview the kids.American media hypocrisy never stops amazing me.
Willy what do you think those guys wondering around the schools and the McDonald's in China are doing.Didn't there uniforms give you a clue.Maybe if they had bobbies on every corner in England.They could of stopped the school shooting in Scotland in 2003.Or maybe they could of stopped people from blowing up city blocks in London.Or wrecking business everytime some soccer team losses a game.Or maybe they could of stopped.That I.R.A. guy unloading a automatic weapon.On a bus fool of nuns and Children.The world had already seen what the blacks and browns were capable of.All they did was beat the shit out of people and create more resentment.
Willy since you don't like my idea.Of leveling the playing field.Though this has ben a tried and true practice threw out history.What do you think the world should do.Because this does happen in every country in the world.And like Rhonald posted.There is allot more people in the states then there is in Jolly old England.
Robert if you get a chance can you do me a favor? I seen you posted a couple of pictures on your facebook the other day.I'm talking about the picture of the Israel teacher and her students.And the one right bellow it.That had the statistics on it.Thank you I appreciate it.
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(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/9143_450968014952081_2004747874_n.jpg)
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/20611_471971182841993_1817946007_n.jpg)
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I think Rhonald has come close to it.
In the UK. In the years from 1999 to 2008 there were 32,298 fatalities on the roads of UK. That is an average of 7 a day. But the US figures for just one year were over 42,000! And the UK population is just 1/5 of that of the USA. It all goes down to attitude.
Maxx yes those in the banks and major stores here are security guards but with no guns. They are there for show more then anything. The only time I have seen Guns here is when they deliver money to the banks or ATMs.
There was no way at that time to stop Dunblane from happening. But the action taken by all parties in the Government was fairly swift. All semi automatic and pump action guns were banned. But they also banned any person having a firearm. There was no gun culture in the UK as the USA but the 200,000 who owned registered firearms had to hand them in. With police follow ups if they did not.
Of course criminal in the UK had illegally held guns and still have, but in general they are used to put fear into those who are in their criminal circles and not to members of the general public. The public in the UK are not in fear of Gun Crime. They fear other forms of attack on the streets at night but not gun crimes.
Cars and guns are heavily featured in the US Movies. People firing off guns willy nilly. Bad guys and good guys driving through the street so badly that they leave havoc behind. The good guys want to catch someone who has murdered another. Good in theory but how many people would they caused the deaths of in those chases if it was in reality. But trouble is reality is what some people take them to be.
I am saying that Americans CAN change things. People can change attitudes.
Public attitude in America change the Smokers world. When I was last there I was surprised as to how many places were non smoking. Smokers became the bad guys. Why because people realized that other peoples smoking was killing them and their kids AND they did something about it.
Since Dunblane crimes involving guns in the UK dropped 44%. In the USA that would represent a lot of lives.
I cannot change the attitudes to guns in the USA but the people of the USA can and now is the time to do it.
Robertt S. Israeli's are NOT taking these measures to protect the people from their OWN people.They live in an almost permanent war zone. Plus teachers in Israel have probably been fully trained in using firearms as all, men and women, are required to serve in the military for a set time and are then on reserve for years after.
Willy
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I think our Australia colleagues really do have something to be proud of. They put in a place a law banning semi automatic guns 14 years ago.
They have not suffered one mass shooting since. In the 18 years before they put in this new law there were 13 mass shootings.
It has certainly saved a number of lives there. In the UK there has been no such mass shooting since Dunblane although one person, in 2010, did travel around for 8 hours and shot a total of 12 people some randomly but others he knew.
Again he shot himself when cornered.
Willy
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To be honest the only two times I have seen people carrying guns were at John Lennon (Liverpool) Airport and Beijing Airport, when coming home the last time..
Gt to admit the first time (Liverpool) it put the fear of God into me...
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Before anyone goes off the deep end with thoughts of people here in the US all carry guns. Where I live there are 1,780,172+ people. There are shootings everyday (holdups, etc) more south in Miami. Yet, no one I know except for two friends that is 400 miles away has any guns. Except for law enforcement I never see a gun carried.
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Robert if you get a chance can you do me a favor? I seen you posted a couple of pictures on your facebook the other day.I'm talking about the picture of the Israel teacher and her students.And the one right bellow it.That had the statistics on it.Thank you I appreciate it.
Now I understand your reason for posting that picture of the statistics Maxx, as it is very compelling. But I am trying to find statitcs that show how many inoccent people are killed by being caught in the crossfire of gang wars, and in turn, how many average, armed citizens came to the defence of those being pinned down.
Sure it is good when a citizen stops rampage killers, but if the statistics show that more guns lead to more inoccent crossfire deaths then stopping of rampage killers, then the poster argument is mote. But I believe that that will be to difficult to come to a fair analysis. I think, in reflection, that an armed citizen is good at defending against random acts of violence ie; rampage killers, rape, robbery, & home invasion; but fail to affect area crime as in turf wars.
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Interesting article. I know it was an off duty cop working security but what if they didn't have a gun to stop them?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/san-antonio-movie-theater-shooting_n_2315139.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/san-antonio-movie-theater-shooting_n_2315139.html)
All of the arguments have to many what if's for me.
The other things that concern me is the attitude toward America and our way of life. It seems that others on this site take great delight in pronouncing judgement on us because of our basic beliefs while holding their own as a greater moral compass. I don't see other countries being attacked for their fundamental belief. I think that maybe it is time to draw back some of the boundaries that made this site what it is or was. It has been a general rule to allow other the latitude of their belief system unless it is the American belief of self protection.
nuf said.
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These thugs deserve every ounce of lead that grandpa gave them.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2175170/Harrowing-moment-elderly-internet-cafe-goer-guns-robbers-chases-door.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2175170/Harrowing-moment-elderly-internet-cafe-goer-guns-robbers-chases-door.html)
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Rhonald you are correct in your assessment.I do read stories weekly on the enternet.Where somebody has tried to hold up a gas station.Or broke into somebodies house.And they get shot.For there efforts.The shooters are treated to a hero's welcome as they should be.In my opinion.They do sometimes even stop a turf war getting started.But not very often.It is my understanding that the reason they carry weapons is for self preservation.Not to save the world from itself.
I'm a American like Vince is.The difference between me and Vince is that.I know plenty of people that carry weapons on a daily bases.They do not carry them in a holster on there hip.Looking for the next gun fight.It is for self protection from a nasty world.Where your next step.Could be your last step.And like Vince.Nobody walks around with a gun strapped to there hip.
The thing I have noticed about living in New Mexico, Nebraska, And Colorado.People are extremely polite to each other.If you bump into them in a store.Or they will hold the door for you if you are trying to get into someplace.The reason total strangers are polite to each other.In my own opinion.Is you never know when one of these physco's is going to slip a cog.and pull a gun.So people have manners as a self preservation mechanism.The only place where you run into bad manners in the west and the southwest.Is with government employees.And help lines for products you have bought.The government lackey's are idiots.That think they have some super powers.That won't get them shot for talking down to people.And the guy on the help line can be as rude as he wants.Because they know that you aren't going to fly to India or the Phillipines.And beat the stuffing's out of them.I have run into the same kind of manners in Arkansas and Texas.Arkansas and Texas is in the Bible belt.So they are all trying to get into heaven.And they stand a better chance at heaven if they are polite to each other.Or so they think.
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Not only speaking of Americans, but it's where I live and observe what is going on.
Our society has been on a decline for decades now and we as Citizen's/Parent's just kept watching as our Youth was bombarded with violence at the Movies/Video Games/Paintball/Music and even in the Fasion industry. All of course for none other then the mighty $. Throw in Drugs and Alcohol and one Parent up-bringing and giving Kids at younger and younger ages Pills (drugs) for just about every little complaint coming from their mouth. So now it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to see where that is going down the road.
Every time there is a Killing single or multiple with a Gun, People everywhere come out and blame it on Guns. Of course that is the easy way out for everybody and that will fix it.
The violence everywhere our Kids are subjected to... not a word, guess that's okay with most. We really made our Soup and now it's giving us heartburn and you guessed it... take a Pill and call me later.
The outlook to come? Is anybody's guess... reminds me though, doesn't or didn't every Empire fall from within? Our lousy Court system could start and put both feet down and "really" make it harder on those Sickies/Criminals and be a force to be "Feared" not made a joke off. Anyway, till things get better ( I'm not holding my Breath) I'll keep my Gun in the same place it's always been and someone like to test my Expierence/Patience with it... their welcome.
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I don't think it has anything with what the kids see on the TV.Or the video games.The video games actually help with a aggressive behavior.Because when you play the games the aggression is spent.What I think it all comes down to.Is personell responsibility.and how it is not taught anymore in are society.When I was a kid.And I did something wrong.My old man would blister my hide with his belt.If I did it again the whipping with the belt would be twice as bad.
As a father of five kids.1 girl and 4 boys.I have never used a belt or a tree limb on any of my kids.When they did something wrong.I told them they did something wrong.And explained to them what they did wrong.And why it is wrong.And that they were going to have to suffer the consequences for there actions.I would also remind them.That every day of there life is a choice.And what choices will you make today.Is it the right choice.Is there going to be consequences and repercussion.To themselves or somebody else.Is the choice a good choice or a bad choice.
So far it is working good.The 2 older kids had straight A's all threw school.They both got full ride scholarships To universities.(For those that don't know that means the college they go to pays all the bills for them to go to there college.My daughter works 2 partime jobs.Has her own car and apartment.And goes to college.My son has his own car.And lives on campus.And has a part time job.
If people would teach there children to take responsibility for there own actions.And show them what can happen when they make a bad choice.The world would be allot better place.
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The detail that many people that are not licensed to carry, or live in other countries do not realize is that many states do not license the concealed gun, they license the person to carry a concealed weapon e.g. gun, knife, and or any other weapon not specifically banned for self-defense purposes. Another problem with implementing gun control here in the USA is the fact that many guns are not registered, so the government has no idea of actually how many guns are held by the private citizens, so the feds may get a few but will never get them all. Americans have resisted all attempts by government to require registration of guns because registration records is what allowed the British government to know exactly who had what and how much ammo and where it was kept. That made it real easy for them to take all guns from the British citizens then. Another reason I think gun control will be intensely resisted is because many Americans consider owning guns a right like that right about free speech the democrats and Westboro Trash bunch like using so much. I am curious though how many good ole Brits would keep a gun if they were not banned by their rulers? I was reading an article earlier concerning what types of methods can be used for self-defense in England and the article said that Mace, stun guns, and knives are banned for self-defense also. Could one of the U.K. members enlighten me about whether Mace and stun guns are illegal for self defense in the U.K. and if so, what are acceptable weapons and or methods for self-defense in the U.K.?
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My observations are not an attack on Americans in general. I was pointing out that in my opinion Americans have allowed the situation to develop to what it is now by complacency. It has been a case of 'I'm alright jack'.
In the UK they live in a different society. They have less fear of being shot by an intruder as most burglaries are committed by persons feeding a drug habit. And drug addicts in the UK will rarely waste money on a gun when it can be more easily spent on drugs. But that is not the only reason that firearms are not so widely used.
The punishment for committing an offence just in possession of a firearm, whether taken out or not, is much much higher that one committed without so they do not risk it. They may well have other weapons with them but not guns.
The vast majority of offences in the UK are caused by persons feeding a drug habit and my views on that will be for another day.
I was pleased to see that some people actually did take to the streets and protest outside the NRA Offices. The NRA is going to be making a statement on Friday. Maybe something positive will come from the horror.
The parents are burying their children and they can only think what horrors their children were subjected to that day. The first responders will have seen the horror first hand and what they saw will last with them for ever. Hopefully the authorities will provide them with counseling that they will need. Unfortunately when I was first on the scene of a multiple child murder then the only counselling was to be told 'Go and get a cup of tea!' I relive that day regularly.
I will say this is the average American was shown the scenes that the first responders saw then the lawmakers could not, WOULD not dare not to support major changes.
Willy
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I was reading an article earlier concerning what types of methods can be used for self-defense in England and the article said that Mace, stun guns, and knives are banned for self-defense also. Could one of the U.K. members enlighten me about whether Mace and stun guns are illegal for self defense in the U.K. and if so, what are acceptable weapons and or methods for self-defense in the U.K.?
As a person with a police pension I can tell you that there are no weapons at all that are acceptable as a weapon of self defence. If you use any weapon to defend yourself then you really have to prove that you were carrying for some other reason and not to defend your self in the case of an attack.
The police have pepper spray and tazers and on specially duties some may have firearms, But the carrying of any items of self defence is against the law. Just the carrying of a self defence spray or article can get you sent to jail. And it could be in a car not on your person. The sales of Baseball bats are quite high in the UK but how many people actually play it here. But they often turn up on searches of vehicle boots (trunks).
In the UK they have always taken ownership of any firearm seriously. Even to own a shotgun there are forms to be completed and checks to be made before a shotgun certificate can be issued. For a Class one Firearm then stringent checks are made on the applicant and also where he intends to use it etc. And many applicants are turned down. If they do receive a firearms certificate it will restrict the ammount of ammunition that can be held and it will also insist that the gun be stored in a special steel locker with top quality security padlock. It cannot be left by the bed at night in case of a burglary. Police are entitled to call round at any time to inspect the gun and locker and if the find it not locked away or the person has just one more bullet than he is entitled to hold then he can lose his licence and the guns seized. A person cannot legally hold a prohibited weapon which is any weapon that continually fires whilst the finger is held on the trigger. No one is permitted to hold any pistols of any sort. All have been banned, Even our Olympic shooters have to do all training and store their weapons outside of the UK.
Of course the criminal element have illegally held firearms but they are more often than not used just to intimidate other criminals and not members of the general public.
Willy
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If's, And's, and Buts. The problem isn't the guns, the problem is how the wrong people get them. I really think those video games don't help aggressive behavior but more importantly dehumanizes real people (targets).
We had a copy cat of the Sandy Hook shooting down here already. He didn't get to do anything except tweet that he was planning for this Friday. The idiot teen is now jailed. Most saying it was a joke? yeah funny. He will be charged as an adult.
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The police have pepper spray and tazers and on specially duties some may have firearms, But the carrying of any items of self defence is against the law. Just the carrying of a self defence spray or article can get you sent to jail. And it could be in a car not on your person. The sales of Baseball bats are quite high in the UK but how many people actually play it here. But they often turn up on searches of vehicle boots (trunks).
Would I be safe assuming the average police officer in Britain undergoes intensive and rigorous hand-hand combat/self-defense training? Are all officers required to receive small arms training or just selected officers. Here in Georgia the police/sheriffs deputies are required to complete POST training before being certified by the state for duty, they must attend training yearly and also pass small arms certification. I live in a small town in Georgia ( pop. 8500 in the entire county) but we have had an armed police officer at all 3 schools in the county for about 4 years now, most of the incidents they have to respond to are fights or arresting a student for drug possession/use on school property. When the Feds were handing out all the money for updating and preparing city departments for terrorism/natural disasters, my county took a portion of that money and set aside for school security and then hired 2 officers full time for the schools. The middle and high school are side by side on the same property so only one officer covers both schools, the other officer stays at the elementary school. So far it has worked good and we have had no problems other than fights or someone loitering in front of the school. As far as gun violence in this county it is low, it has been about 2 years since someone was shot here, she was 16 and shot by her 37 year old crack dealing boyfriend/pimp who she met through her crack smoking mother. Before that it had been about 5-6 years since a man tried to drive away without paying for his dope and the dealer shot through his back window striking him in the neck, he run off the road about 4 blocks away and died. Drugs play a large role in gun violence here, the dealers do not attempt to intimidate each other, here they actually want to kill each other to gain the drug territory and sales. The cops can only do so much because the criminals have more rights than their victims and the liberal bleeding heart judges slap them on the wrists until finally after 3 convictions they will finally lock them up for awhile. Right now I am waiting to see if the president uses his executive power to place some type of bans in place, it will get real interesting then. Regards
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Vince,
You are absolutely right about the idiot control. I think they should have it where the shrinks are required by federal law to notify the authorities in the town where a patient lives if he is judged to be a danger or potential danger to his self or the general public. The hospitals and doctors are required by law to report suspected child abuse or sexual abuse when they observe it, so I think after the recent rash of shootings by mentally ill people would allow some type of legislation being introduced to address this issue also.
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I'm still stuck on the mother played a roll in this. These are guns a woman does not buy for herself. A shotgun maybe, a 223 assault rifle? questionable. THis was a kid that she knew and others knew was a problem and was told to never take your eyes off of but yet you put guns in this persons hands? Somethings not right.
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I was listening to Herman Cain on the radio and he played the following you tube audio. Paul Harvey did this commentary back in 1965. It sends chills up and down my spine.
If I Were the Devil: Paul Harvey (Clean Audio Version) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaGVCO6CByQ#)
Vince I also read your most recent comment. I have had the same question about the mother. After your comment my first thought was about Jason Bourne in Bourne Identity. Makes me wonder if..... :-\
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Would I be safe assuming the average police officer in Britain undergoes intensive and rigorous hand-hand combat/self-defense training? Are all officers required to receive small arms training or just selected officers. Here in Georgia the police/sheriffs deputies are required to complete POST training before being certified by the state for duty, they must attend training yearly and also pass small arms certification.
In the initial 2 years of training as a probational Constable they receive training solely in self defence and handling prisoners who are 'unco-operative'. This is with the baton, pepper Spray and Tazer etc. No firearms training is given in those first two year. After 2 years Police Officer, who are selected after in depth interview and phychologist reports, they then receive specialise training to qualify to carry firearms. The initial training is solid for four weeks. They then have regular training sessions. This includes one day a month indepth where they have to pass the test otherwise their permit is removed.
Only a small proportion of officers in any station are permitted to use firearms. Also only those on specialised front line duties carry firearms at all times. When special events take place permitted officers have to draw weapons from a safe store within a police station before attending incidents.
Willy
PS I am pleased to see that the rise against some firearms are rising but sad it had to come about through such a tragedy. My own feelings as an observer is that it will go through because the Republicans are on the political back foot now and to oppose it will make then second place in future elections. They oppose it and one more such tragedy would put them into the political wilderness.