China Romance
General Discussion and Useful Links => Ask An Experienced Member => Topic started by: fivetrout on December 30, 2012, 06:06:48 am
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I'll try to explain the situation briefly. I've been skyping my gal for a year...with a planned trip in May. I know that her father has been ill with a heart condition and that has spent all her money and maxed out 6 credit cards for his surgery along with her two brothers. He is much improved and in much better health. Now the reality has come home. The banks have been pushing her for repayment, and now her house is at risk and on the market. She tells me that...she believes that the Chinese govt won't grant her a visa when she is in debt. I have read that assets are normally needed to prove she's not running off, and that she has good reason for returning (family, money, business). Is this true regarding her debt which is about 350000 yuan, or is it a matter of keeping face with the banks? She knows that I have a simple life, and I do send a bit to her each month $150USD but her debt is quite the mountain and I can't, and wouldn't touch even if I could. I think this will be reason for her to break up our relationship. My hands are tied and no power in this situation!
Chris
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Well Chris, I think that it is the country she is applying for a Visa to enter that may have the problem with her debt rather than the Chinese Government. The host country wants to know that she will leave that country when her visa ends or that there is money to support her when settlement visa's are issued.
When my wife has applied for visa's for visits to UK the Chinese Government has never come into the Visa situation but she had to supply bank records to the UK government agency on each occasion.
Hospitals are expensive here for major operations - but my concern would be 6 credit cards! These are not given out willy nilly like in the western world plus there are not the high limits per card either. Stringent checks are made for each one issued and low limits applied. So not sure how her own debt has risen to 350,000 rmb - that is almost as much as I paid for our home here! My niece who has just spent 500,000 rmb on two top of the range German cars and has bought a 2,000,000 home this year has only been able to get one Visa Credit card with a limit of 10,000 rmb
I am the Forums built in pessimist so I say be careful. Even if you had the money you will still need to take steps to ensure that there is actually a debt.
From what you say it sounds as if you have not been to China to meet her in person yet. If that is so then you need to be doubly careful and in which case you should not really be sending her money at this time. If you have been here and met her then still be careful - my eyes and ears have been opened by a friend here who is in the police who keeps me updated on various scams and most are the ones that are set up over many months.
If you want to chat privately to me about this on skype then just send me your skype details by PM here.
Plus if I remember correctly you found this lady on a dating website that is based in Rumania or at least one with the .ru for rumania as a suffix. Scammers often use these sites because they ask no questions.
Willy
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Chris I'm going with Willy on this something smells really bad.I have a friend in Zhuhai.Who isn't as well off as Willy's niece.And she has got a couple of credit cards.And like Willy said.They have real low credit limits.So you can't run up that kind of debt on a credit card.And since the hospitals in China operate on a cash only bases.IT would make me wonder.
As far as this messing with the Fiancee visa.No The U.S is not concerned.With what money your lady may or may not owe to a hospital in China.If she is after a tourist visa.Then that is a totally different story.And it will go down.Just like Willy Said.At no point and time.did I need a letter,Or credit report from the Chinese government.Stating my wife's credit worthiness.On a fiancee visa or a marriage visa.The U.s government knows that you are paying the bills while your fiancee/wife are in the states..
If you haven't visited this lady yet and you file for a fiancee visa.her visa application will be denied.If you visit China only once.There is a good possibility that her visa will be denied.Immigration wants to see many trips to China
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Well Chris, I think that it is the country she is applying for a Visa to enter that may have the problem with her debt rather than the Chinese Government. The host country wants to know that she will leave that country when her visa ends or that there is money to support her when settlement visa's are issued.
When my wife has applied for visa's for visits to UK the Chinese Government has never come into the Visa situation but she had to supply bank records to the UK government agency on each occasion.
Hospitals are expensive here for major operations - but my concern would be 6 credit cards! These are not given out willy nilly like in the western world plus there are not the high limits per card either. Stringent checks are made for each one issued and low limits applied. So not sure how her own debt has risen to 350,000 rmb - that is almost as much as I paid for our home here! My niece who has just spent 500,000 rmb on two top of the range German cars and has bought a 2,000,000 home this year has only been able to get one Visa Credit card with a limit of 10,000 rmb
I am the Forums built in pessimist so I say be careful. Even if you had the money you will still need to take steps to ensure that there is actually a debt.
From what you say it sounds as if you have not been to China to meet her in person yet. If that is so then you need to be doubly careful and in which case you should not really be sending her money at this time. If you have been here and met her then still be careful - my eyes and ears have been opened by a friend here who is in the police who keeps me updated on various scams and most are the ones that are set up over many months.
If you want to chat privately to me about this on skype then just send me your skype details by PM here.
Plus if I remember correctly you found this lady on a dating website that is based in Rumania or at least one with the .ru for rumania as a suffix. Scammers often use these sites because they ask no questions.
Willy
+ 100000 points What Uncle Willy said!
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Thanks for your insight guys.
I feel pretty darn certain Hong is not opportunist and certainly not a scammer. I have plenty of experience with those types. I offered to pay for her English lessons and we work on those together. I believe because of face...she is the real deal. I have met her entire family on skype, her mother has sung songs to me, invited me into their home for dumplings, and are eager to meet me. Everyone approves including her 16 year old son. From the very beginning with Hong, she understood that I lived a fairly simple working class life. There has never been the tinyest inkling of a red flag. We spend hours together eagerly learning of the other, dancing, music, cooking foods, etc.
The situation with her father is not new to me, she has shared her concerns with me for over a year, and states the debt is well worth her fathers recovery, and I agree! Over the last few months she has become very stressed, she shows the bank statements and the fistfull of credit cards. Many times Hong has tried talking to the bank for help.
Last week she was keen on getting married in China, and last night she tells me she cannot come to America or marry me as she needs someone to help her with her debt, and so she will find a man with money. Hard to say if she was thinking aloud or telling me directly? Communication is still very rough. Sure I have things to say in those regards...pointed things, words to express my anger, my emotions, and my feelings of loss. However, I decided to bring it here instead...and I know there are cultural differences that I don't understand which may come into play.
I told her (kidding) that I need to find a rich girl...she said NO NO NO! I love you I love you!
So basically I don't have a clue as to whats going on or the outcome???
Chris
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Willy is a sceptic, but often have rigth in the end, unfortunantly.
Wonder what the respons will be if you say you can come and visit her next week ;)
Hoping for the best for you.
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I have to agree with Willy....
My wife (who is resident here in Aus with me), recently had to get involved with a health problem her Father in China developed.
He needed to go into Hospital for treatment and Ming asked me if we could help with the Hospital expenses as he had to have the cash to pay before they would treat him.
There are NO billing accounts for Hospitals in China except the "Westernised" Private Hospitals that are ruinously expensive anyway.
Just to be a sad sack....be aware that modern scammers are very sophisticated...they will "play their fish" for a long, long time if they think they will get paid eventually. All your protestations about being a normal, not-rich working guy will be politely ignored...after all you are Western man...and ALL of them are rich, despite what they say.
You have already shown your willingness to part with money to a woman you have never met so the precedent is set.........sorry, but I think you are being played
The only way to begin to get resolution is to get over there soonest and see for yourself.
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I think anything is possible I guess...but why would she invest all her time knowing there would be no payoff outside of coming to the US? A few weeks back...she thought we should stay in the US until I retire...then go live in Weihai. Yesterday she mentioned she used to be rich and now very distressed about her financial situation. BTW when I offered her English lesson money, it was only after she made her sitting room into her bedroom because she rented her room out for extra money for the lessons. I wanted the privacy, and with the odd hours waking others.
I have read so must about Chinese women and money, it's hard to think she treats her love interest as a financial transaction.
Her home is on the market for 885000...so far the best offer is 650000, I guess if the bank "recovers" the home she will lose all face, yes?
I did tell her...that I am still coming to Wuhan in May to kiss her face! Haha But, I'd better have a backup plan for sure!
Chris
Note! This site has a great spell-check!
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Chris,
Good luck with everything and I hope it works out for you and her.
I have a good friend in Wuhan - a Chinese woman (not my gf) who is having her own issues with her American bf sick in hospital at the moment and she is unable to get over to the States to be with him. Anyway if you need a contact on the ground there let me know.
cheers,
Steve
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Hey thanks Steve so much! I'll keep that offer in mind.
Yup, she keeps calling on skype and phone, but after taking the wind from my sails...I'm just not in the mood to talk right now. She has some friends over today that speak English...but I won't be an entertainer today. haha
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fivetrout, keep your mouth open. She is about to set the hook. I have met several ladies in dire situations like this. Like willy said it is near impossible to run up that kind of debt on a couple of credit cards.
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So she's not fishing barbless? haha There's no meat on this skeleton... she will be sucking bones :P
I do think it's more than C.C.s...a personal loan against her home maybe?
If she wants a fairly simple live with me? It's here for her. If she wants money...it's not here for her, and she knows it very clearly. Fourteen months has been quite of an investment for both regardless of motives.
The chips will fall where they are destined to fall.
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Another fish being played..Nothing new here.. try doing a search on 'scam romance' on your local newspaper...
Here's one example (of thousands) from
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10770276 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10770276)
"An Australian gynaecologist's search for love left him bankrupt and heartbroken after a A$3 million ($3.75 million) lonely hearts club scam.
Neil Wallman's tragic story of betrayal was revealed in the New South Wales Supreme Court, revolving around a Gold Coast dating agency, a mysterious Chinese-Australian blonde and a fabricated hunt through Croatia and the Philippines. "
You'd think Aussies would know better .... ;)
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As you say fivetrout, anything is possible. It hard to say for sure whats going on until
you see her. It has som bad 'flair ' around so I would be careful. Keeper us posted , either way it ends.
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Chris, Chris, Chris,
This is 1mansopinion, but I’m quite sure that I speak for others that have read your post. The difference is that I’ll be a bit more blunt, straight to the point, and I may even hurt your feelings with some of the things that I’m going to write. I think you need the “TRUTH SLAP” I’m going to give you. Sure – it’s gonna sting for a bit, but you look like a man that can handle it.
I came across this web site/forum because a friend sent me your story via web link. I’m going to be honest with you. The first words that I wrote to him were: the story is pathetic and I want to cry, but I can't because it's too BLEEP funny. Feel free to fill in the BLEEP with your favorite four letter word. And I wrote that only after seeing the incomplete story. When I clicked on the READ MORE, I genuinely felt sorry for you. I have to put it straight to you. You’re no kin to me and I don’t know you from Adam. Heck, your real name could even be Adam. I don’t think you’re using your real name as if anyone were to know the real you and were to read this story, you’d never hear the end of it. You’d be the laughing stock of all your buddies at the bar. That being said, I can see that you’re an older gentleman and you appear to be looking for love. Aren’t we all? Don’t we all want that one special man or woman that’s going to fulfill our every dream and desire? I can’t blame you - or anyone - for searching for that light and ray of hope. However, I live here in Guangzhou, Guangdong of the People’s Rep. of China and I’m sorry to say, but you should check off China on your list of places to find women to fall in love with and marry. I suppose anything is possible: We put a man on the moon, The Berlin Wall fell, the US elected its first black president and Osama bin Laden was found and killed. Miracles can happen and every once-in-a-blue-moon, something happens that restores our faith and gives us hope.
I, along with others on this board, would love nothing more than to read a happy ending story, (not the normal happy ending one receives from the massage parlors here in China). I would love to be proven wrong, but if Willy is the built in pessimist on this board, then a new moniker would need to be given to me. I’m an American from the Bay Area of sunny California. However, I’ve been living in China for five years and I can honestly say that I have a Bachelor’s Degree in the School of Hard Knocks. That being the goings on, how it is, and the dealings in China. You’re welcome to take it or leave it, but I would be remiss if I didn’t give you my two cents.
Let’s first get to your first sentence. You call Hong “your gal.” You’ve never physically met, touched, felt or even felt up this woman. How can you call her “your gal?” Skyping ain’t the same thing as sc---ing, and the last time I checked, Skyping doesn’t consummate a relationship. Before you get on a plane and fork out over $1,000.00, perform a simple test of “your gal.” Apparently you’ve met this woman online – great. Meet her online again. I’ll explain. Spend the money to create a new you. Build a new profile and include a photo of one of your buddies or perhaps a photo of someone that you simply know at work. Make the person in his forties, no kids and no ex-wives. You could do divorced, but it’s best to have never been married than it is to be divorced for the purposes of this test. Chinese women see being divorced as “something must be wrong with you” or the relationship, etc. It’s best to be a man that’s worked hard all his life, has accomplished a bit of something and now wants a woman to enjoy the fruits of HIS labor. TRUST ME ON THIS. THEY WANT TO ENJOY THE FRUITS OF YOUR LABOR – NOT THEIRS. The western way of sharing the household bills and expenses does not apply here in China. Here in China, it’s what’s his is hers and what’s hers is…well – hers, too. Start to chat with Hong as this new/you person. See how far along you get into the pretend-lationship before you start to hear the sad story of her father. I’ll bet a Benjamin Franklin that it won’t be longer than two weeks. Ask her to send you photos. Tell her you’re looking to marry in the near future because you’ve waited so long and now you want to enjoy the rest of your life. Then see if she’s really Chris’s gal or new guy’s gal or anyone’s gal that’ll chat with her and send her money.
I can’t walk past a DIM SUM shop without hearing about someone’s relative that’s ill or is in the hospital for this or that. I’m not joking. The health care in China is basic and in most cases, people need to wait for hours before being seen by a doctor. And as for insured-billing (hilarious). It’s either pay now or die later. So, “your gal” and her siblings will be scrounging up money and checking the sofas for loose change to pay the hospitals. Let me tell you this true story. Just two weeks ago, I had a woman over for a visit. She gave me the same song and dance about her father. He, too, is in the hospital. She told me that her favorite car is a BMW and with the money that she and her family have spent to keep her father alive, she said she thinks she could have bought a BMW already – or as the Chinese call the German brand – BAO MA.
Next thing is this: You write that you are pretty darn certain. Read that again. Is that like – you almost won the lottery and you were pretty darn close? You either are certain or you aren’t certain, but there’s no pretty darn certain. You’ve met her entire family on Skype? You mean you’ve seen their faces on Skype. FACE is huge in China and no one is better at showing a great face than the Chinese people. Her mother has sung songs to you on Skype? The Chinese love KTV and there’s one on every street corner. A KTV is as ubiquitous in China as McDonald’s is in the states. The Chinese will sing at the drop of a hat. She invited you into their home for dumplings? That’s SOP (Standard Operating Procedure). You’ll get tea by the gallon, and depending on what festival they’re having, you’ll get offered Moon Cakes, Mandarin oranges, etc. As for her statement of finding someone to help her with her debt and will marry a man with money – she’s not lying. And as far as her loving you – that’s fine and all, but she’s not kidding. She may love you (in as much as the Chinese know what true love really is), but like I always tell my buddy, “What’s Love Got To Do With It?” The filial duty she has for her parents and family will come first over her feelings of love for you. Love can’t pay those hospital bills. Love don’t pay da rent.
Your words: I have read so must about Chinese women and money, it's hard to think she treats her love interest as a financial transaction.You’re going to feel like this the moment you touch down. You’re not necessarily a financial transaction as you are more of an ATM – (Ask The Man for Money)
First things first: Create a new/you. Chat her up on that dating site and then take it offline over to Skype. Create a new Skype ID. It sure beats wasting over $1,000.00 on air fare and then the money you’re going to spend when you get here in China. And believe me – you’re going to spend money. As a white foreigner – and American to boot – you’ll be expected to be rich by Chinese standards. And of course everyone is supportive of your relationship and her 16yr. old son, too. To them, you represent the winning Lotto ticket. He's counting the video games he's (or rather you) are going to buy him.
I hope I’m wrong, Chris. Please prove me and the rest of us wrong. Write us back in May and post us with a happy ending – no pun intended and no picture necessary.
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Well, I gotta get in my half cent....well said!
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TRUST ME ON THIS. THEY WANT TO ENJOY THE FRUITS OF YOUR LABOR – NOT THEIRS. The western way of sharing the household bills and expenses does not apply here in China. Here in China, it’s what’s his is hers and what’s hers is…well – hers, too.
And as far as her loving you – that’s fine and all, but she’s not kidding. She may love you (in as much as the Chinese know what true love really is), but like I always tell my buddy, “What’s Love Got To Do With It?” The filial duty she has for her parents and family will come first over her feelings of love for you. Love can’t pay those hospital bills. Love don’t pay da rent.
Well that is some writing but probably gives a true picture. My Dad who was in China for a couple of years before WW2 always said that the Chinese considered ' What is mine is mine what is yours is ours.' That is really true. Many people are just about coping back in the western world at the present time. Tell a Chinese woman that when she gets to your home country that she can work and you can then live well. She will immediately think. That you need her so that YOU can live better but she will be no better off than she is now if she puts all her money into a joint pot. Let a man fall into hard financial times and the woman is unlikely to stick around so that her earnings can be used to save the day but leave her penniless.
The other thing is “What’s Love Got To Do With It?” I have not been here quite as long as 1mansopinion but I am going through only my fourth winter here but I do of course live in one of the smallest city's in Guangdong and I have far less contact with other 'foreigners' but I can understand the point he is making. A Chinese woman needs to feel that she is going to be better off with a foreigner than standing still or taking a step back. That will be the deciding factor in 'to love or not love'.
Thinking about finding a Chinese wife then put away those rose tinted glasses. But unlike him I say spend that $1000 on a ticket and come here and see and meet. You can Skype as long as you like but you will not know until you meet face to face. You both may say I love you but once together she will assess you by what your wearing and what you spend etc. I say get to know each other face to face before deciding. I was fortunate that I was able to court my wife almost daily for5 five months before we married.
I can afford to live here and live well as I am now into a pension that is subject to increases in line with regular standard of living rate in the UK. What I spend per month on a good life here is far less than I would have to spend in the UK on a lesser life style. But If I suddenly did not have that income then I am under no illusion that my wife would never maintain me in the manner I have become accustomed to. More likely I would be left to fend for myself. We have seem or heard of members on here who themselves have suffered that fate.
Willy
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But If I suddenly did not have that income then I am under no illusion that my wife would never maintain me in the manner I have become accustomed to. More likely I would be left to fend for myself.
That is not different than many Western women. I don't care what society you choose to marry into there are no guarantees.
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Your missing my point Shaun.
We know it can and does happen in any country but men come here and other Asian countries and are overwhelmed by the reception they receive and get to think that they are God's gift to women. When they are not.
Gods gift to women is the better lifestyle you can give to them not you as a person but in financial terms. You being Chinese or Foreigner it makes no difference. More than most Chinese women are more realistic about this. Love will rarely overcome that fact in a Chinese Woman's eyes.
As they say it is better to weep in a BMW than smile on the back of a bike. We joke about that but there is a hell of a lot of truth in it.
Willy
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In general I will agree with the points he is making. But there are exceptions. Women here want to better themselves by what ever means possible. Your only advantage is that you probably have a sounce of income double or tripple the average chinese guy and that you have been brought up to respect women. This is a winning combination here with women that have worked all their lives and been cheated on lied to and swindled by their husbands. Compared to a chinese man your a saint with a paycheck. There are exceptions where true love rules, and your loved for just being kind and loving, but it dont pay the bills. In the end when the ether wears off you need to be able to support the lady or she will be very disappointed. I like to think of my wife as an exception and truley believe she is to some extent. She did spend all her money and max out her credit cards when I was hospitalized with a burst blood vein in my stomach. She was there day and night taking care of everything and ready to beg or borrow whatever it took to put me back together. I greatly aprectiate what she did for me. She probably saved my life a couple of times. She never asked me to pay here back, but it has paid her back in spades. She is now in the USA and set for life. I am not shure what she was thinking when she struggled to keep me alive but I like to think that it was all motivated by love and dedication.
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I agree with you Gerry. There are exceptions as there is with everything in life. We as individuals believe that is the case with our relationships. But it is only time that will tell.
I know why wife is so concerned with keeping me fit and well, maybe it is, as I think, a way of ensuring our days together are long. Or is it just a way to ensure that what I can bring to the table continues to be brought! I will never know until the end of my days. But that does not concern me.
Maybe they need to take what they can. Most of our ladies have come from a failed relationship and most of the men have come from a failed relationship. Everyone would like to think that the fault was on the other side in either case but is that always the case. But I have had no personal experience in that. But the woman come into such relationships with the thoughts of getting as much as possible out of it and the men seem to have the immediate concern of not letting them take too much, even going so far as setting up pre-nups.
I personally have no concern with what money my wife is or is not salting away. All I know is that whatever it is then it is not effecting the life that I now have. I have found a life that suits me and just wished I had taken my Dad's advice and come to China when I was in my 20's.
But thinking back there could have been one huge problem with that. Some of you may have become my son in law. Ugghh!! ;)
Willy
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I am not shure what she was thinking when she struggled to keep me alive but I like to think that it was all motivated by love and dedication.
Gerry, I think you are a very fortunate man. Seems to me there are two forces in relationships - getting and giving.
Getting means bargaining- winning out in some sense, in the bargaining process - which means winners and loosers. Which ultimately means a loss of trust between both parties i.e a bigtime loss all round. Retreat to prepared positions; prenup agreements; damage control, deciding what to defend and what to surrender; having a plan B (and C etc). Not a peaceful way to spend time on the planet - this i know :)
The other choice - to be a giver, not a taker, is also a choice for trust. It means that I increasingly learn to trust my inner being to my wife's tender care; increasingly in the experience that a harmonious union is a way of achieving something together that we could never achieve apart. Of course it helps that I am older than most, because I've tried most of the worldly offerings and found them wanting. It also helps that I have a wish to lead a simple life; as my wife says " we have sufficient and we have each other: that is enough". So I no longer conjecture (much) about the range of catastrophes that could befall my relationship with Yan...or with my Bank.
Behind all of that there is unconditional commitment with no guarantees and none needed . That in itself suffices. Its like the Beatles song that says ' the love you get is equal to the love you give,'
So Keep on giving Gerry.. she'll love you for it. Best David K
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Thank you all for the uninspiring insights. LOL I am aware that all the conclusions given are basically just from my own words and how they were interrupted...and that's OK! I'm not a recent falling off the turnip truck kind of guy. I have learned very painful lessons with regard to trust issues. And on-line...I'm as savvy as the next guy with merit badges with Russian and Ukrainian women and those agencies... thanks to RWF (russian women forum) which is like this one about chinese women. My last love in my life was a severe alcoholic ex-minister whom lived many years as an abused child by her stepfather. And as you know, there's no better conniving liars like an addict! That woman could look you straight in the eye...lying through her teeth, and make you forget what you were confronting her about! That relationship caused me to reevaluate my part in all past relationship...and where I had failed, not her...but myself!
To the thought of making a bogus profile to test her? She took her profile down two days after we met, me... a month later.
Among trait's required...are that, she invest something real of herself, to make a sacrifice if required to the "relationship". Hong has expressed a better life for her son, whom she is very proud of...and I can respect that. She knows I had lost my home to a foreclosure, (a walk away) in which all my equality (175K) was lost with the housing crash, yet she pretends to cry..." I love Chris and he has no money" LOL
We have agreed a simply life is fine as long has we have a roof and can pay the bills. I have never sugar coated anything to allow her to expect more from me. Hong does know...that she can achieve a happy life with me, and that we will approach everything as a team (family).
Do I think this woman is the "one"? Hell yes! If I thought any different...I'd have no reason to waste either of our times! Do I think this relationship could crash and burn? Hell yes! For the reason's suggested here or others unknown at this time. I have no "rose" colored glasses on here...But I will damn happy... to give you all, reason to swing your votes to support! I think Hong and I both believe...you have to dream it...before it can happen!
At this point and time, she wishes us to be married, a honeymoon visit to Wudang Mountain to place a "lover's lock" on the cable of romance locks, and then a visit to her parents and family.
She is moving now, and so I've not talked in two days, but will update if story news worthy.
Chris
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I am sure that you will do OK Chris.
You have many Worldly battle scars to show that your not a newbie to this.
I hope everything turns out well for you in the latest foray.
Willy