Author Topic: A better way to communicate?  (Read 3192 times)

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Offline Winter's End

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A better way to communicate?
« on: July 26, 2009, 09:44:59 pm »
Hello everyone,

My name is Robert and I’m new to this forum, although I’ve lurked for a while and have read through a very large number of the threads. I grew tired of the censored posts and cookie cutter jargon so prevalent on the forum at Chnlove and landed here, hoping to find solid answers to hard questions and solid advice for difficult situations.

I feel I know many of you after spending literally days of my free time pouring over the information and opinions written here.  Although I am very new, I feel like a member of the Brotherhood. However, after reading my post I know some will wonder, ‘who the heck does this guy think he is?’

I have gathered that being welcomed into the Brotherhood is offered easily by some, but not by all. A perfect case in point is the way Proteus was received. I say this only because you do not know me, and I am new. I have not developed a reputation, have not yet contributed, and am not known. The thought I am about to offer may hit some the way I intended, and others in a different way. Hence I am trying to lay my framework carefully.

To offer some credibility to what I am about to say, I will tell you that I have been involved in a variety of Asian cultures for about 12 years. Most of my friends are Asian and I work with literally hundreds of Asian people on a daily basis. If you name a county in Asia, I most likely know someone from there.  I am a manager in a hospitality related industry and our main focus is guest service. A lot of what I do involves keeping these Asian guests happy and solving any problems they have with our product. Additionally, my ex is Chinese and from a family that is as old school as they come. I have a fairly deep understanding of ‘face’ learned from my experiences with these people, my ex, and her rather large family.

Please know in advance I do not mean to offend anyone. I am not saying anyone is right, nor wrong, including me. This is offered in a peaceful manner for all to glean what they can. If that is nothing, I am sorry for wasting your time. However if I can help even one man, one of the Brotherhood, better the communication process with his Chinese lady, then I have accomplished my goal because they will have a greater chance of success.

Having said that, I will continue.  

First, let’s take a look at communication. I have an idea in my head I want to relay to you. I encode that idea into words based on my life experiences and my understanding of the way things are .. then I speak those words. You hear those words and decode them based on your life experiences and your understanding of the way things are. The glitch here is the differences in my experiences vs your experiences and my understanding of things vs your understanding of things. All differences, no matter how small, generate some level of ‘static’ in the communication.  Think about that for a moment .. try to get a picture in your mind.

Now let’s add to that picture a few variables. The person to whom you are relaying the idea is from a different culture, which means their life experiences and their understanding of things greatly differs from anything you could possibly encode. This is a super-glitch generating a lot of ‘static’. Now add another variable: the person also speaks a different language, so no matter what words you use, none of them will be understood.

Enter the translator, a third person in the communication process, who inadvertently adds another layer of ‘static’. Now you encode, the translator decodes, assimilates the idea based on what they perceive, changes the idea to the different language, then relays the idea. Only then, finally, does your lady have the idea you are trying to relay .. but it has been contaminated with ‘static’.  Also don’t forget she still has to decode it based on her life experiences and understanding of things.  Ever try to tune a radio station just out of reach? You hear some music mixed with static, then static, then music with static. If the song is one you don’t know, would you possibly be able to sing along? It is the exact same process when your lady tries to express an idea or thought to you.

I would now like to ask a rhetorical question: why assume you understand what the original thought or idea was? Keep in mind the process described above applies to ladies who understand English, only with the translator variable removed; even still, a very complicated process. So, why assume you exactly understand the original intent of the communication, or that she exactly understands your original intent?

I’m going to move into a relatively sensitive area at this point. Again, please remember I am not saying anyone is right, nor wrong, including me.

The 24-hour rule is great, but only while you are here and she is there. What will be your plan of action when you are living together as a couple? How will you be able to use the rule after a misunderstanding and she’s right next to you on the sofa? Am I saying to not use the 24-hour rule? No way. It is a great rule and should be used by everyone. So what am I saying? The need for the rule is indicative of a breakdown in the communication process. The fact that we need this rule is telling us ‘static’ corrupted a communication and has generated misunderstanding.

If you’ve stayed with me this long, press on a bit more.  I am almost done. Remember the encoding/decoding process? Try telling a joke to someone, but drop out every third word (static) and see if they laugh. Try talking about a sensitive subject, like love or sex or marriage or family, and drop out every third word (static). Will you be misunderstood? Will they be offended? Will you be offended by their response?

Remember, the communication is pictured perfectly in your mind .. so you have an acceptable response pictured in your mind also. Then the communication runs through the encoding/decoding process with varying levels of static mixed in. She may misunderstand, give an inappropriate response, and you’re offended. This breakdown occurs both ways, so your response, based on a misunderstood communication, may offend her. Thus begins the downward spiral.

We, as Westerners, tend to be expressive. We stand up for what we believe in. We fight for what we feel is right. We point at something we feel is wrong. We challenge ideas we don’t believe in.

So, take this entire package and mix in our Western approach to things. We are offended, so begin to fight for what we feel is right. We did not receive what we feel is an appropriate response, so begin to point at what we feel is wrong.

Stop reading for a moment and get in touch with how you would feel at this point. Angry? Hurt? Let down? Do your best to focus on what your emotional state would be, and then decide how you would react toward your lady. For your benefit, don’t continue reading until you have a grasp on this: how would you feel, what would you do.

Okay, you have clearly pictured in your mind how you’d feel and how you’d react. Completely let go of that, put it in a basket and set it down. Now slip into your lady’s shoes, walk up to that basket and take a good, hard look at what’s inside. There was a communication attempt that got muddled by static, and this is what you received from your man. Is there love inside? Forgiveness? An attempt to be more clear? What is inside of your basket for your lady to receive?

My point is this: love will grow, communication will grow, but only in a nurturing environment. To better provide a nurturing environment, be patient, forgiving and kind. Most importantly, realize, at all times, that you may be acting or reacting inside a bubble of misunderstanding. Why put out a fire when you can prevent one? Why repair a bridge when you can avoid blowing it up? Saying, ‘I’m sorry my love, I’m not sure what your mean. Will you say it again differently?’ goes miles/kilometers beyond an inappropriate response to something we’ve misunderstood.

Not pointing fingers at anyone, but merely citing an example: take a look at some of the squabbles that have broken out in the threads amongst the Brotherhood. Generally speaking, they all get worked out in a positive way .. but they happened. We all speak English, are from relatively similar cultures, we’re the same gender and here for the same reasons .. yet misunderstandings happened. How much more easily could it happen between you and your lady, given the circumstances?

Always remember you may be operating inside a bubble of misunderstanding. Ask it again differently, or say it again differently. Just be sure there is complete understanding before going to the next level.

This is my humble opinion, respectfully submitted to the Brotherhood. I truly hope someone will find a golden nugget somewhere.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 10:55:46 pm by Winter's End »

Offline Carl

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RE: A better way to communicate?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2009, 10:07:08 pm »
Hi Robert. Welcome to the forum.  I think you have made some great points and have some interesting things to say.  Thanks for the contribution!

Arnold

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RE: A better way to communicate?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2009, 10:50:50 pm »
Well Robert , I do appreciate that very detailed Version of how to communicate and understand all the difference's in Culture and Language's with your Lady . I can't say that you are wrong about your generous and very well thought out Post . I can agree , with the 24 hour Rule only working while apart , but this rule still apply's even together ... not to that extent of course ( we have talked about this in earlier Threads ) makes only sense you don't wait 24 hours while she is sitting next to you . But you have to take a time out to think it over twice maybe even three times before saying anything , you will regret later .
But ( I hate that word ) , in my case .. which might be only a few out of thousand's cases , the Communication between my Wife and I was of NO problem at all to speak off . NONE . Even though her English wasn't as good a year and ahalf ago , we NEVER had any problems ... with the customs , language , her Family also after meeting for the first time , it was like we knew each other for years already . Not everybody has the luxury of having a Lady that speaks English well enough to go trouble free through this process of course . Now , your advice is something I would highly recomment , if I was in someones shoe's that started out from scratch , which happen's of course many times as we all have witnessed through our Forum brother's and some of their Trip's . Communication like you say , is the biggest downfall in ANY relationship , not just interracial . Anyway , your Post will be analized from top to bottom by most of our Member's I'm sure and you as myself like to see what will be everyones opinion on this .

Not to forget Robert , Welcome to our Forum .
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 10:53:07 pm by Arnold »

Offline Hajo

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RE: A better way to communicate?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2009, 12:00:33 am »
Quote from: 'Winter's End' pid='9987' dateline='1248659099'

We, as Westerners, tend to be expressive. We stand up for what we believe in. We fight for what we feel is right. We point at something we feel is wrong. We challenge ideas we don’t believe in.


Well Robert, I do not agree with you on this one. Every human is an individual and reacts different. People in the east will also fight for what they think is right, probably in a different way. I believe every person in the world would at a certain degree. In my believe it is something that is a part of human nature.

My lady and me went away from EMF communication after a month. She does speak very little english and my Chinese is not worth to mention. We used translation software with all the flaws there are. Misunderstandings happened and my lady fought for what she meant was right. My point of view was and still is that we do not intend to hurt each other. If there are misunderstandings, the arise because the difference of culture or language.

With that in mind, I told my lady that we have to agree on

1. We do not intentionally say things that would hurt the other.
2. We fully trust each other.
3. There are no taboo in the communication.

We had our struggles because of misunderstandings, but we solved them because of TRUST in the other. Believing that we say everything with good intentions we have come a long way.

In my humble opion, it is trust where the problem lies! Most of these ladies have been hurt badly by the men they have been together with. Some of us men have been hurt by there ex-wifes. That makes it difficult to have trust. But it is the base to every relationship. With trust you will be able to communicate, even without speaking the language.

Well, as you said yourself, I don't want to hurt anybody. It's just my opinion. If somebody like it, think about it otherwise forget about it.

BTW, welcome to the brotherhood.

I wish you a nice and enjoyable day guys!
爱你的人如果没有按你所希望的方式来爱你,那并不代表他们没有全心全意地爱你。
Just because someone doesn't love you the way you want them to, doesn't mean they don't love you with all they have.

Offline maxx

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RE: A better way to communicate?
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2009, 12:31:26 am »
Welcome Robert to are little piece of the intenert The 24 hour Rule is something that I came up with after I had to extract my foot from my mouth.on more then one occasion.You are right about the 24 hour rule working real well while your lady is in China and you are in your own country.

It does work a little while she is setting on the couch beside you.No you are not going to be able to tell your wife or Fiancee that you will get back to her in 24 hours.But what the 24 hour rule does do is to train you to think before you open your mouth.It gives you a chance to see the problem from her side.If your wife or fiancee is saying something or doing something you don't understand.Then  just ask her.In a calm reasonable voice.

It is ben my experience.If you just have a little patience and understanding.That they can and will help you understand.What they are saying or why they did what they did.If they won't tell you the reason.Then there is probably some other deep seated issues.That you are probably going to need some profesional help with.

The key to any relationship is good communication.If you don't have good communication.You probably don't have a good relationship.

David5o

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RE: A better way to communicate?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2009, 08:10:40 am »
Robert,

You've brought up a lot of interesting points in your post, some i agree with, while others I'm not convinced on. All communications require what you have pointed out above, some people are more articulate in there letters than others, and will therefore have less misunderstandings. Some will have more understanding of others, ....while others won't even see any misunderstandings, or see them as not worth a second thought. So we are all different, and we go along our journey in our own particular or favoured manner. So long as both of you are happy, and the relationship is progressing in the direction that both are seeking, then there is no real right or wrong way. Sure there are pitfalls, but that's another subject, and relates to hearts taking over from our heads, or our commonsense.


Hajo,

I also agree with your post in many respects, i know it's hard for some of these ladies to put their trust in a man again.  I personally trust most people i meet for arguments sake, until i have reason not too.
To trust someone, on-line so to speak, takes a good deal more thought. Yes you can trust to the degree where it's not going to hurt you, and also trust what she is saying to you is her true feelings. But i think you still need your wits about you, especially when entering a new relationship that's based purely on EMF's /e-mails. Personally, i would put my full trust on hold, until i meet her in person, then i can better judge whether ''My Trust'' is in good hands or not!!

David......

Offline JimB

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RE: A better way to communicate?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2009, 09:05:05 am »
Winters End,

First, welcome to the brotherhood.  It is quite a unique place.  It has grown quite a bit from when we started on Facebook.  I read your post with great interest.  You articulated it very well.  You seem to be an intelligent insightful person.  I feel your post would be of great help to the new guys just starting on the journey and give the rest of us a new way to look at the cross cultural relationship.  Thank you for your post.
Maxx's 24 hour rule, learn it, live it.

Offline Darius

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RE: A better way to communicate?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2009, 09:06:09 am »
welcom to the brotherhood Robert.

You have touched on a theme so profound in itself with relation to Maxx first and second rules. You can write even books about it. Nothing new but you have well summarized all in one place.

Everything should be fast and easy or stop to exist. Our way of living, eating even thinking and communicating. I even know some people who read just the first two chapters of a book and then the last, just because they dont want to bother themselves with the effort to know the way. This stressful way of life makes us to what we are.

And so we build up our opinion, our way of reasonable thinking of that part of the reality unknown to us. In a narrow sense all our culture, literature... and even sciences to some extent are nothing else but realizing and finding solutions for it. But we are not Human just living in isolation. We are trained from the very first moment to get and practice naturally the rules of the society in which we are living regardless of how unnatural this living is or could be.
We learn to use the rules of nature in our maybe unnatural way of thinking. Fast and easy. Taking to pieces and recombining with the result finding Pattern or categories to copy it in our head to understand and solve our problems as fast as possible. If something dont suit to our categories it must be wrong for sure!! It Must Not Be Wrong, is Maxx telling us and that is his Rule Nr. 1: Different culture different customs.

I am thinking now of the Ray Stevens Song " Everything is beautiful ". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc0MJeZPeh4&feature=related

You have described very well the bumpy way of communication and building trust and We all know well the efforts having a lucky living togather dont end up in the registry office or wedding altar. It has only just started. But never forget this two rules are just complementing each other. Each one isolated wont show the full effect and potential.

Maxx Rule Nr. 2. in combination with the first is a breakdown kit for our just towards fast result orientated way of thinkig and personality. Therefore this rule is not aimed to get statically understood. Maxx tried to summerize a motto without generalizing which meant " to imply it individually". It doesnt mean to take it literally 24 but depending on your unique situation trying to suit it to your own. It is not a matter of distance or length of time. It is just a matter of practicing and more exercising. Every time you do it you will know, it will be much easier and better over time until you dont need it any more, getting rid of your way of thinking in categories.

And that is one of most imporant goals of this brotherhood, knowing the way of thinking and feeling a la chinese, telling each other about our experiences to understand the chinese categories!

Offline Brian Mc

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RE: A better way to communicate?
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2009, 10:12:34 am »
Welcome Robert

Well that was quite an enjoyable read.  In essence a summary of much advice given on this forum put in a good easy to read and understand format.  Well done.  As you say some may agree and some may not but that I have found is part of the value of this Brotherhood.  You dont get it sugar coated, you get it straight from the heart and minds (sometimes twisted granted lol) from people who wish to help.  What more could you ask for from a bunch of guys?  Well I guess pizza beer and party but well..... sorry my mind ran off lol.  Anyway back to the point everyone here is only looking out for each other. We may agree or not with a point of view but you get straight advice from everyone.  Only question is how you interperet the advice and what you do with it.

Regards,

Brian Mc

Offline MLM

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RE: A better way to communicate?
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2009, 08:16:15 pm »
Hi Robert and welcome to the brotherhood, My wife is here ( at the moment in China visiting ) and even though she has been here tn the States for over 5 years and speaks English very well we still have our days where we really need to work at getting what we mean across to each other but, with a little patience she will help me understand or I her,it seems to be more of a cultural thing with us and I am trying to learn more every day.
Thanks for your post Robert, very good info in there.
Good luck and best wishes
TIME IS THE TELLER OF ALL TRUTHS AND THE HEALER OF ALL HURTS

Offline Martin

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RE: A better way to communicate?
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2009, 08:49:54 pm »
Hi Robert.  I do hope you continue to post.  Your observations are great.  While not everyone will agree with you, you offer some thoughtful perspectives on what you have read here.

Welcome, and please feel at home here.

Offline Winter's End

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RE: A better way to communicate?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2009, 03:01:55 am »
Hello everyone,

Thank you all for the warm welcome messages. They are much appreciated, as is everyone's point of view!

A great skill to have is taking the knowledge one possesses, adapting it on the fly then applying it to their current situation. Please don’t take my post in a strictly literal sense.  It was meant more as general info, tucked away in a back pocket, ready to be pulled out in a time of need. Some parts get tweaked to fit the situation and used this time, others next time. Perhaps not at all.

Thanks again, guys. It is very good to be here.

Robert