Another newbie being scammed?

[fyeba]

Hi all,

I'm hoping there are some more experienced guys out there than can give me their opinion on whether I'm being scammed or not.

I've been writing to a girl (I think) from Baoding for a couple of months and I thought things were going pretty well until recently.  Some things have been happening that seem a bit hinky.

To cut to the short, I started noticing some vague responses to specific questions I would ask about conversations we had in previous letters.  These weren't difficult questions and should have been able to be answered easily.  

Then, I sent her a few gifts that should have had a 'special meaning' from the exchanges that we had.  This is where things start to get real questionable.

The first sign of a problem was that I had delivery tracking on the package and I got notice that is was delivered on a particular day.  Well two days go by with us exchanging letters each day and no acknowledgement of the package.  I didn't say anything because I was already having concerns.

I got busy with my work and didn't send any more messages for a couple of days.  

When I do send another message, apologizing for not writing sooner...of course.  I also asked about the package and I get the following response:
"I am sorry for the gift because I have just been to Beijing to join one of my friend's wedding at 11 th . My father telephoned me when he received the gift the day before yesterday . So I told her to take care of the gift as soon as I come home today , I run to my father's home to get the present ".

Also in the letter, she had this comment about the translator and the receipt of the package:
"I am moved that you have the special letter for me , and there are tears in my eyes . I am really moved , and as soon as I get the gift , I telephone the translator , and ask her to reply your letter . I am sorry for this special thing . You are special to my life ."

Now there were multiple gifts in the package along with the letter. Notice the complete lack of acknowlegement of the gift-S that were also sent.

Now I had no clue that the address I had was for her 'father'.  That had never been discussed when we were exchanging addresses before I sent the package.  This seemed odd but I was willing to let it slide.

Also in her response, she added in a poem that was pretty nice.  A poem that I don't think your typical person could write.

So in my response I asked the following questions that took her two days to answer.  Now, mind you, in the past month it has never taken her two days to reply to any of my messages.

Question:
Did you like the other gifts? Which one is your favorite?
Answer:
I am glad that I love all the gifts that you send to me . You are special to me , and I love all the special gifts that you send to me . I am happy that you love all the special tthat you send to me .
Comment:
Now, by this time, I fully expected this answer.  The problem is, one of the gifts should have had special meaning because of the one thing she always called me in pretty much every letter from the last month.

Question:
Were you able to understand the translation of the lyrics? Which song did you think describes us better?
Answer:
The poem is the precious gift that I have received in my life . I love the whold poem because all the poem is in my life
Comment:
Problem is, these were actual songs (CD with paper copies of lyrics both in English and my attempt at a Chinese translation).  I can forgive the confusion between song and poem but it's pretty difficult to overlook the difference between a single song and the number of songs I sent to her.
 
Question:
I am glad you received my package. I did not know that the address you gave me was for your father. I'm sure he was a little surprised to see a package from me arrive at his door. I was a little surprised. Is there a reason why you did not give me the address for your apartment?
Answer:
Just because that I sometimes go out , so there is no one in my apartment . My father said that he would like to be the post officer of us to change gifts for us . Because my father is always at home , he can receive the gifts at any time .
Comment:
Since I don't know how the postal system works in China, I don't know what to say about this except that my tracking notifications said that the package delivery had been attempted the day before and was unsuccessful.  So I guess 'father' isn't always home either.

Question:
I would like to understand something about the translator. Are you telling me that you asked the translator to send me a letter that you received the package? This letter I never received. I understand that accidents do happen. I just like to know when they happen.
Answer:
Just before the translator wrote the last letter , I told her that I have received your letter . So the translator sends you the letter as soon as possible .
Comment:
How convenient....

Question(referring to 'her' poem):
Such beautiful words you write to me. Are they your personal words? They sound as if they should be made a song.
Answer:
It is me that write this words to you . I do hope that you love this poem , I just want to send this song to you .
Comment:
Now I have to admit that curiosity got the best of me so I pulled out my little friend Google and....
Word for word...  doesn't the poem show up on some dude's page on
www.alivenotdead.com.
Sad thing is...  this wasn't even a poem that this dude wrote.  It's from a random poem generator that is easily found on the net.

Well, I guess I'll stop blathering for now before the blood vessel in my neck bursts.

So, guys, what do you think?  I'm confused and, if this woman does exist and she is the one I have been talking to, I don't necessarily want to blow this off.   But too many things just aren't adding up...

Sad thing is, going on chnlove and looking for a partner is not a game for me.  I am serious about this and now I don't have too much faith in anything on chnlove.

Thanks in advance for your opinions and advice,
Barry

[David E]

Hi Barry

Welcome to your worst nighmare !!!!!

You have posed the ever-present question which occupies more thoughts and words from Bros than any other subject.

Sadly, we dont have a definitive answer for you...we all have some degree of suspicion that so much of the contact we have with women through CHNLove and its Agencies is "Translator fluff" !!

We dont have any way of proving what the women were/are told, what they did/did not REALLY say in their letters...or even if the Translator passed our words on without edit or modification.

This is why there is a continual cry here to "get off EMF's" as soon as you can...if they will let you, that is !!

Its a very poor and difficult situation...from what you say in your post, i would be seeing stacks of red-flags....but the tragedy is that your Lady may well be the innocent party in all this...and she is being plagiarised by the Agency...but I couldnt say that for certain.

In summary...get on to QQ or some similar face-to-face web-cam experience...if she/they wont, then bolt !!

DavidE

[brett]

Welcome Barry!

I've sent my lady gifts and I know she loves them, but she doesn't always appear as happy as I would like.

Some ladies live away from home - it depends on their job.

I can't stress how important it is to get away from EMFs. I think if you get to 10 EMFs without getting her phone number/QQ number/exchange text messages or see her on webcam then it's probably best to call it a day.

The postal system in China is very slow.

Some translators are better than others. If you were earning 1000RMB a month would you be bothered to do decent translations?

Hope this helps!

[fyeba]

Thanks, David.

That's kind of what I figured.  In my paper letter that was in the package, I asked her to email my personal email account so that we could start talking that way and with QQ.

I figured I'd do it in the letter to make sure it wasn't filtered out by the translator.  I just didn't figure there was a prayer of getting that information out there through EMF.

The whole package thing really has me wondering.  Who the heck did it go to 'cause it obviously wasn't read by anybody?

That's what has me wondering whose scam this is.  My lady has never asked me for anything.  That is unless it's a scam that's being played out slowly.  

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind paying for EMFs right now.  Heck, what I've spent isn't much more than one nice date here in the states but I sure as heck would like to know who is sitting across the table from me.

Maybe I should ask the translator out on a date.  :icon_cheesygrin:

Thanks much,
Barry

Hi Barry

Welcome to your worst nighmare !!!!!

You have posed the ever-present question which occupies more thoughts and words from Bros than any other subject.

Sadly, we dont have a definitive answer for you...we all have some degree of suspicion that so much of the contact we have with women through CHNLove and its Agencies is "Translator fluff" !!

We dont have any way of proving what the women were/are told, what they did/did not REALLY say in their letters...or even if the Translator passed our words on without edit or modification.

This is why there is a continual cry here to "get off EMF's" as soon as you can...if they will let you, that is !!

Its a very poor and difficult situation...from what you say in your post, i would be seeing stacks of red-flags....but the tragedy is that your Lady may well be the innocent party in all this...and she is being plagiarised by the Agency...but I couldnt say that for certain.

In summary...get on to QQ or some similar face-to-face web-cam experience...if she/they wont, then bolt !!

DavidE

[wilsbrough]

Hi Barry.

If you have read any of my post you will see we went thru some of the same things, (Saying that, i think nearly all of us here have at one stage...:icon_biggrin:) i sent things to her home address without letting her know thru Chnlove 1st, guess what? No response, but the gift i sent thru Chnlove she thanked me for... Personally i have fallen out of favor with Chnlove and will not use them again, i'm not saying this is what you should do as only you can decide that, but if i was you i would be seeing many red flags here, but as David says, your lady also could be the innocent victim here as well, there are so many cases of the ladies agencies sending replies with out the ladies knowledge...Which would lead to the some of the inconsistencies you are now getting. But listen to what David says as i agree with it too. How long have you been in communication for? If you sending gifts, i would assume it must be a few months by now? Does she have good English, or you Have reasonable Chinese? As in my next letter to her, i would say something like, 'i would love to be able to hear your voice, can i call you?' or 'i would like to look at your beautiful eye's and see your smile when we talk, can we chat on QQ sometime?' But be careful with your wording as if she is genuine, she may be thinking you are saying this as you do not trust her. Which will make her feel pressurised and probably will be less likely to say yes to your request...Ps the agency, Was it Baoding matchmaking times?

Andy...

[Nad]

Hi Barry,
I think that what advice is being given to you from the other guys is 100% right. Try to get away from using the translator. If you decide to try another way of communicating your lady will probably resist it too because they feel the pressure of not being able to speak English. However try to keep a positive outlook even when you have doubts. I feel that internet dating brings with it enough doubts and pressure.  I f you have had previous bad experiences with internet dating this makes it even worse.      
 I have recently returned from meeting my Lady and even after communicating using here personal email and speaking to her by phone I still had negative thoughts but good feelings about her right up to getting off the plane and meeting her.
I feel that what you maybe going through could be normal, however if you have too many alarm bells ringing then get out of it.
All the best from Alan

[fyeba]

Hi Andy,
Thanks for the suggestions and especially the advice on the wording.  I understand how I could screw things up in that respect.

Other than me sending her flowers on her birthday (through ChnLove, which was immediately acknowledged), we had be talking for about 7-8 weeks before I decided to send the gifts.  It's not like the gifts were anything special and certainly were not expensive.  Just little trinkets that had meaning from the letters we were exchanging.

Odd thing about the package is that I did tell her through EMF that I was sending it.

As far as the English goes, I am told she doesn't speak any but I don't know if that was the translator speaking or not.

BTW, it was Baoding Times.

Hi Barry.

If you have read any of my post you will see we went thru some of the same things, (Saying that, i think nearly all of us here have at one stage...:icon_biggrin:) i sent things to her home address without letting her know thru Chnlove 1st, guess what? No response, but the gift i sent thru Chnlove she thanked me for... Personally i have fallen out of favor with Chnlove and will not use them again, i'm not saying this is what you should do as only you can decide that, but if i was you i would be seeing many red flags here, but as David says, your lady also could be the innocent victim here as well, there are so many cases of the ladies agencies sending replies with out the ladies knowledge...Which would lead to the some of the inconsistencies you are now getting. But listen to what David says as i agree with it too. How long have you been in communication for? If you sending gifts, i would assume it must be a few months by now? Does she have good English, or you Have reasonable Chinese? As in my next letter to her, i would say something like, 'i would love to be able to hear your voice, can i call you?' or 'i would like to look at your beautiful eye's and see your smile when we talk, can we chat on QQ sometime?' But be careful with your wording as if she is genuine, she may be thinking you are saying this as you do not trust her. Which will make her feel pressurised and probably will be less likely to say yes to your request...Ps the agency, Was it Baoding matchmaking times?

Andy...

[Willy The Londoner]

Some translators are better than others. If you were earning 1000RMB a month would you be bothered to do decent translations?

I have got to take you upon this Brett.   If nothing else the Chinese are hard workers regardless of the low wages they are paid.    I have yet to find one that skive's off work.  If they have a job they work damn hard to ensure they keep it whatever the wage.  

To be sacked for not doing their job correctly is the biggest slap in the face they can have.

The reason that translators give poor translations is that their colloquiel English is not up to some of the words we use without thinking.  You have to write emf's as if you are talking with a young child.  

Willy

[wilsbrough]

Hi Andy,
Thanks for the suggestions and especially the advice on the wording.  I understand how I could screw things up in that respect.

Other than me sending her flowers on her birthday (through ChnLove, which was immediately acknowledged), we had be talking for about 7-8 weeks before I decided to send the gifts.  It's not like the gifts were anything special and certainly were not expensive.  Just little trinkets that had meaning from the letters we were exchanging.

Odd thing about the package is that I did tell her through EMF that I was sending it.

As far as the English goes, I am told she doesn't speak any but I don't know if that was the translator speaking or not.

BTW, it was Baoding Times.

Hi Barry

Well, baoding times was the one agency i delt with, with the lady i went to China to meet. There was inconsistencies with her emf's (stories she told me in an emf, that when we chatted on msn, she had no idea with what i was talking about) So it does not mean that your girl is not genuine, as the girl i met was real...I also had a couple of situations when in China, when i was chatting with the Translator on the phone, who said my girl wanted the translator to accompany us, but i had already discussed this with her, and she had not said this...So, is it a bad agency? Or just the translator trying to earn a bit more cash? that's the problem, there are so many variables it could be, you just don't know...

I think your main problem you are going to have with the direct contact is her lack of English skills. If she is real, she will want to make a good impression with you, and if she can not speak English, she will be very nervous about chatting with you. she may think that it will put you off her, or for her to loose face. So i pretty much guarantee she will say no to your request. This is why you need to be so careful in your wording. As remember the translator will be telling her what you say. If you make it sound you want to get off the emf system altogether, there could be the chance of the translator leaving this out of your message to her, and making up that part of her reply to you...

If you do ask for direct contact, say you still want to use the emf's for the majority of your letters, even say it does not worry you if you can not understand what she is saying, it would just be nice to be able to hear her voice every now and then when the time is convenient to you both. Also, there are free websites like MDBG (http://usa.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php) Where you can translate Chinese script into English, and vice verse, and just copy and paste into your instant messenger box, QQ is mostly used in China, but some ladies do have MSN messenger. Tho, the shorter the message, the more accurate the translation, so be aware of this. One other route you could try is that a lot of agencies offer computers with webcams, for the ladies to use, you could put a note at the end of your next emf to your translator, asking if their agency offers this service to the ladies. Then, your lady can use this, and have the benefit of having the translator with her to help with your communication.

Hope some of this helps, we all know what your going thru as we have all been there ourselves...:icon_cheesygrin:

Good luck,
Andy....

[fyeba]

Hi Andy...
Again, Thanks for the words of wisdom.

Interestingly enough, with the exception of the webcam idea, all of the suggestions you gave are what I wrote in my paper letter to her.  Especially the part about continuing to use EMFs. I guess I'm going to have to try the same thing through an EMF and see what happens.  One way or another, I guess that approach will give me some answers.

I don't have any problem with doing the translations with the tools that are available.  I've been using Google translate (which seems to be pretty good when I do a translate/reverse translate and I have Babylon (which I am starting to lose faith in).

Heck, from the way I look at it, the self-translation is part of the fun of it all.  Nothing like getting a whole lot of laughs trying to figure out what each of us are saying after the machine gets done mangling what we're trying to say.  I told her that I would rather see the words coming directly from her and I didn't mind if I couldn't understand everything.  I also told her I knew she wouldn't understand everything I would say but we could have fun trying to figure it out.  I told her that eventually we would have to do that anyway so why not start now.

I'm also taking one of those on-line live Mandarin speaking courses each week so I can kinda/sorta speak about, oh let's see, fifteen words right now. :icon_cheesygrin: Not much but I'm kind of getting a basic grasp on things.

In theory, she knows I'm doing this and I've tried to put her at ease by writing the few things I can in pinyin in the EMFs.  I'm hoping that if she sees I'm making an effort she'll be more agreeable to private communication.  The big question is...  has any of this information actually gotten to her?  I guess I should preface that with "if she exists"... since I still don't know how to read the whole issue with the paper letter and what I said in there.

Anyway, I can't thank you enough for your guidance.

Barry

Hi Andy,
Thanks for the suggestions and especially the advice on the wording.  I understand how I could screw things up in that respect.

Other than me sending her flowers on her birthday (through ChnLove, which was immediately acknowledged), we had be talking for about 7-8 weeks before I decided to send the gifts.  It's not like the gifts were anything special and certainly were not expensive.  Just little trinkets that had meaning from the letters we were exchanging.

Odd thing about the package is that I did tell her through EMF that I was sending it.

As far as the English goes, I am told she doesn't speak any but I don't know if that was the translator speaking or not.

BTW, it was Baoding Times.

Hi Barry

Well, baoding times was the one agency i delt with, with the lady i went to China to meet. There was inconsistencies with her emf's (stories she told me in an emf, that when we chatted on msn, she had no idea with what i was talking about) So it does not mean that your girl is not genuine, as the girl i met was real...I also had a couple of situations when in China, when i was chatting with the Translator on the phone, who said my girl wanted the translator to accompany us, but i had already discussed this with her, and she had not said this...So, is it a bad agency? Or just the translator trying to earn a bit more cash? that's the problem, there are so many variables it could be, you just don't know...

I think your main problem you are going to have with the direct contact is her lack of English skills. If she is real, she will want to make a good impression with you, and if she can not speak English, she will be very nervous about chatting with you. she may think that it will put you off her, or for her to loose face. So i pretty much guarantee she will say no to your request. This is why you need to be so careful in your wording. As remember the translator will be telling her what you say. If you make it sound you want to get off the emf system altogether, there could be the chance of the translator leaving this out of your message to her, and making up that part of her reply to you...

If you do ask for direct contact, say you still want to use the emf's for the majority of your letters, even say it does not worry you if you can not understand what she is saying, it would just be nice to be able to hear her voice every now and then when the time is convenient to you both. Also, there are free websites like MDBG (http://usa.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php) Where you can translate Chinese script into English, and vice verse, and just copy and paste into your instant messenger box, QQ is mostly used in China, but some ladies do have MSN messenger. Tho, the shorter the message, the more accurate the translation, so be aware of this. One other route you could try is that a lot of agencies offer computers with webcams, for the ladies to use, you could put a note at the end of your next emf to your translator, asking if their agency offers this service to the ladies. Then, your lady can use this, and have the benefit of having the translator with her to help with your communication.

Hope some of this helps, we all know what your going thru as we have all been there ourselves...:icon_cheesygrin:

Good luck,
Andy....

[Brian Mc]

Greetings Brothers,

Fyeba, I agree with some of the things others have said and opinions on some other bits.

First the address thing.  My Zhen listed an adress on chnlove to contact her at however it was actually her brothers adress.  The reason was that the city she lives in is undergoing massive demolition and reconstruction.  She gave me the address in early august and before the end of august the building sh ewas living in was torn down.  It seems some of the ladies have a somewhat transient lifestyle and it just may be more convenient for them to use the parents address because it is stable.

The gift thing is a tougher thing to explain but it seems also that tehy dont get all worked up about gifts like we do.  When you say you sent several gifts in the box she may only interperet that as one one gift and become confused when you ask about the other gifts.  I sent Zhen flowers through CHN love for teh holiday in august and she did receive them but when i asked her about tehm she said they were nice but that was it.  Perhaps your lady figures her response was adequate for the questions you asked.

I undeerstand your concern about the translator and the agency.  Again I appear to have been especially lucky in that both my agency and translator were absolutely fantastic and no translator fluff in either direction.  The agency helped us do webcams with no charge, and help the ladies and us guys out any way they can.  I have personally visited our agency several times as it was within walking distance of my apartment when I was in Handan and they are more like friends to teh ladies rather than money gougers.  The Handan agency is a shining example of how chnlove is supposed to run.  I have seen them working with their ladies and us men in person and I see none of teh grief or dishonesty that others report.  This of course does nothing for your situation except that all of them are not bad.

I would suggest setting up webcams with your lady through the agency before trying to drop the emfs and the agency all together.  This way you both get to see each other live, see if you connect and she can become comfortable talking with you before you dump the agency.  If the agency will not cooperate then perhaps tell them that its webcams or you drop the lady and search another agency for another lady.  Lets face it it is in their best interest to do webcams as it keeps teh relationship running and your lady should have no issues because she will have a trtanslator with her to help.  My Zhen could barely say hello how are you in english when we did our first webcam sono english is a poor excuse.  Just keep showering her with compliments, you are beautiful, I love your voice etc and she will start to open up.  As she gets more comfortable then try to wean her off emfs.

Now having said that even after my first trip to china to see Zhen and us doign webcams everyday after my return to canada we still wrote to each other by emf everyday, right up until I came to china to be with her.  Emfs can be really valuable if you trust the agency and translator, which Zhen and I both do.  Even now that I am living and working in china and Zhen has moved away from her home town to be with me, if we called the agency and asked them to help us they would bend over backwards to do what they could, and they know there is no more revenue from us other than the marriage fee which is actually quite small.

Anyway my best suggestion is webcam and try to get your lady to accept them more often and try for other forms of non emf.  If it all is a no then its your call.

Good luck,

Zhen and Brian

[JimB]

Exactly what Bri said.  Nothing that you have said is completely out of character for a Chinese woman. The only way to be 100% sure is to go to China. I made three trips.  The last one was to live there for a couple of months and get married.  The agency in Beijing was totally misrun and without supervision so the translators did whatever they wanted without recourse.  Even to the point of not even trying to get visitation money.  Barry, two things i would suggest.  remember Maxx's 24 hour rule and read, read and read every thread here in this forum.  Every thing you are going through has been gone through a number of times, so reading will help you.

I also agree with Willy about the Chinese work ethic. I never met one person who was not totally dedicated to doing a good job.  Even in restaurants where they only work for their salary and no tips, they work hard and usually give great service.

Jim and Gina

[Proteus]

My dear friend fyeba,

Let me assure you something!

The lady you think you are writing to is an absolute real existence.

If your gifts for her did make it through chnlove, at least she knows your existence too.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess her participation in correspondence with you may vary between 1%~30%.

If requests for QQ or webcam to get to really know her are denied, try the last resort. With the buffer of a couple of passionate letters, start discussing your visiting her.  

If misunderstandings are finally cleared between you two, I wish you a happy life as a couple. If your prediction is regretfully finally confirmed, I hope you can preserve the evidence. They might be needed one day.

Thanks!

[shaun]

1%-30% WOW!!!!!!!  Do you see that!!! Is this normal with most women and most agencies?  Proteus tell us?  Chinese Knot I would like to hear from you too if possible.

I think I will refrain from saying anything about this until the two wise ones speak.

Shaun

[Voiceroveip]

I don't agree Jim, sorry! I ma going to Sz on Wednesday to meet my lady, we've been chatting a good while on QQ and phone after about 20 EMFs each way. Her profile stated shae was learning English, I supposed that meant close to 0 English. I turns out, she can speak some and write a lot more, we have no trouble communicating. I tend to write long EMFs (mistake), she got them straight in English and would read most of the content but admitted that the very long ones, well, they were very long. Also writing back was not necessarily done by her. Some of it yes, but most of it by the translator, so the 1-30% doesn't surprise me. Is she interested? Yes she is, very much so actually. But it seems the "letter romance" concept is stronger in the West than in China. Meeting is key, that's what they're after, that's when it really starts, so be prepared. I sent flowers, they were acknowledged in 2 EMFs because she really appreciated them.

Since we're chatting, we're going through many topics already covered in EMFs again... so my 2 cts:

1.direct contact asap, 10EMFs is more than enough. The agency will be reluctant because they will lose the EMF revenue, the lady mostly not. Just force them: if I don't get direct contact, it's good bye for good. Worked for me no problem on 2 occasions, remember they mostly get a premium for the visit, or at least if marriage turns out in the end. Careful though, I got a QQ contact supposedly belonging to a lady, yet I'm sure it's the translator's QQ.

2.go there, soon! I had meeting offers accepted after: 1 EMF once, after 5 EMFs another time ... If you're writing 200 EMFs before going there, you're probably wasting some of your time and your money, spend the time in China and by a ticket from the money. There are exceptions like Brian and Zhen, but so far, this is my experience, confirmed on 2 counts.

And finally, beware of cultural differences, be prepared for everyhing and expect nothing. Believe the golden 24 hour rule!

Good luck
Frank