General Thread For This and That!!....

[rockycoon]

With willy's luck, he will get all dressed up and get his car parked, only to find that he has parked at a GAY convention center and may get more than just a parking spot....lol lol

[Paul Todd]

The report said the floors were 7.9 mm thick:-
[attachment=1226]

It's from a new build in Shanghai.

[David5o]

Paul Todd,

I think someone is kinda exaggerating just a little here, i can believe 7.9cm!! ...haha!!  It doesn't however look like the floors have collapsed, so i would imagine it's failure has a lot  more to do with foundations, steelwork (re-bar) and columns, and probably a totally  inappropriate concrete mix (strength)...

I would hate to be living in any of the other blocks there, it kinda doesn't give you a sense of safety/security somehow!!! I guess the main contractor is in a whole heap of crap right now, along with the local authorities building inspectors etc!!  

David....

[Willy The Londoner]

Paul Todd,

I think someone is kinda exaggerating just a little here, i can believe 7.9cm!! ...haha!!  It doesn't however look like the floors have collapsed, so i would imagine it's failure has a lot  more to do with foundations, steelwork (re-bar) and columns, and probably a totally  inappropriate concrete mix (strength)...
David....

Saw a report on TV. The foundations were to blame they say.  No one was living in the block and they knew there was problems with it,   Only one person was missing and he was a workman who went back to get his tools after they were all told to evacuate the building.

Note they built the blocks just far apart enough to avoid a domino effect.

Willy

[David5o]

Willy,

You can bet your socks, that when that building came crashing down, it didn't do the adjacent block structure and foundations any good at all, especially if they were already weak!!!

So even if the other block wasn't actually hit, the damage is done, just not as visibly
as you would imagine. I bet if you took a careful look around that other building, you would see the tell-tale signs of structural damage and weakness, especially at the lower parts of the columns.....

David.....

[mustfocus]

I'm not in the construction business, but don't you need a basement/foundation?  It looks like it was built on top of the dirt with only a few bars to hold it in place...A house I can understand...but no basement means a good sneeze will bring the place down...unless there's something I'm missing.

[David5o]

Having taken a closer look at the above photo, unless the camera lens is distorting the image, it looks suspiciously like the next building along is leaning/bulging out towards the river. Maybe they will knock that one down before it falls down too!!!

Musfocus,

Depends on the building construction, but you don't need a basement, ...you do need a foundation. That foundation can be deep piled foundations at the column points. It looks as though that area where the building once stood has been churned up some, to the extent you can't see anything. So your guess is as good as anyone else's, as to what method was actually utilised. What i did notice is that the fallen building has more floors than the adjacent building, (3 floors more). So maybe they added floors without upgrading/checking the structural requirements. That's a favourite thing to do in Asia, i can think of two instances where that happened, one brought down a complete multi-storey superstore in South Korea, killing hundreds in the process....

One thing is for sure, China has a very long way to go to improve it's building regulations.
I doubt if any of these new high rise blocks being constructed by Chinese construction companies will withstand mild earthquakes let alone medium to strong quakes. They just want to cut corners and costs at every turn, and there's just no-one to stop them.
It'll come eventually, but not before a few of those high rise buildings come crashing down with the obvious resultant loss of life....

David

[mustfocus]

Vince and David,

Let's assume those metal poles are being used for the foundation... They still doesn't look like they could be strong enough...there could be more, but still...

This kinda reminds me of the earthquakes that hit Taiwan in the 90's.  After the inspections, it was revealed that many of the steel bars they used for the infrastructure were replaced with really wound up tight rolls of newspaper...

[ttwjr32]

and only 1 person hurt?

[David5o]

The more i look at that photo shot, the more questions i ask.... The floor slab seems to still be attached to the fallen structure, which would indicate the slab was built sitting over a series of Concrete filled pilings or the like. But then the slab doesn't look man enough for this sized building
If those are PVC pipes, then there a pretty big dia and seem to be going into the ground a good few metres, and i doubt if they would still be sticking out so straight, ...so again confusing!!!

The toppled building and the next one to it, may well be different, but we can't see that for sure, as the buildings are built facing each other. We can only see the backs and one side of one pair of buildings and the front and other side of the other pair...
Are there no Civil/Structural Engineers here, that can shed any light on the failure?? haha!!! I think i'll send this photo to a Civil Structural Engineer that i know, and see what he has to say!!  lol!!

One thing i can say for sure, i wouldn't fancy living in any of the other blocks that are still standing, ....that's for sure!!!

David.....

[Paul Todd]

The building at Shanghai's "Lotus Riverside" apartment complex toppled over almost intact, killing one worker. The developers had sold 489 of the 629 flats in the 13-storey building, and owners of the flats are now demanding refunds or compensation. The building, one of 11 in a wider project, fell over early on Saturday when pillars that were supposed to be buried deep under the earth were uprooted. The China Daily newspaper showed tearful owners gathering for talks about taking collective action against the developer, and owners of flats in nearby buildings also expressed fears for their safety. Commentators in the Chinese press have noted the project's riverside location, the rise in water levels and potentially unstable piles of mud near to the collapsed building. Looks like they where putting in an underground garage too!:-/

[rockycoon]

Ok guys I'm not trying to be a know-it-all, but I've been in construction for 47 years plus.  I have built buildings like this and fortuantly they are still standing.  Let me throw my 2 cents worth in for a moment.

1. I've never trusted engineers, looks good on paper, but in the field we have to correct everything....LoL  sorry guys if you an engneer....LOL
2. when they did the dirt work, they didn't level it correctly.
3. They neglected to compact the soil on the project or did not compact to 94% or better
4. On the foundation it's called "footings" and they didn't dig the footings deep enough or wide enough.
5. The rebar is too small, should be 2" or better for footings (from the pictures you provided" with that height.
6. The foundation which sits on top of the footings was two small and not rebared enough and also wrong size.
7. The cement was sub-standard "not too much sand" but rather bad concrete mix with very little concrete and not enough rock in the
    mix.  could be any number of things with the concrete mix they used. Drying to quickly will also make concrete crumbley.  The chinese
    also buy concrete from the US because they don't have very good concrete there. had to be the cheap local stuff...
8. Floors that are 7 millimeters are way too thin, like walking on paper, a floor has a metal underlayment and at least 4" of concrete.
 
agian this is just from the pictures and what you have said.  By the way, chinese wallboard (sheetrock) is banned in the US, as it is so sub-standard and won't pass inspection.  Although they ship it in, make sure you get american sheetrock, contractors will buy chinese sheetrock to cut costs, but if the inspector see's it (and they will) you will end up tearing it all down and put in american.

Anyway, that's my two cents worth. God, perhaps I should be a contractor in china instead of teaching english :icon_cheesygrin:  I
could pick apart this construction but there isn't enough room.  I say "red tag" the whole thing and get a good American contractor!
The building next door should be inspected by a professional as same thing could happen to it.
By the way, remember those school kids that died because of shoddy work and cement? when they had that quake.  I dare say that
the contractor has beat feet, as he will probably be shot!

[Willy The Londoner]

I am just glad that I live in one of seven blocks all connected together.

Most probably with superglue but we are stuck together.

Willy

[David5o]

Like yourself, I've been in the construction industry for more years than i care to remember, and like yourself I've seen both disaster Projects and Projects that ran as smooth, as a knife thru butter.....

Not too sure what you mean by not trusting Engineers Rocky, but in Europe Engineers stand or fall by there work and there signatures!!! It may be different in the States, but one things for sure, i wouldn't trust a a contractor to design and build an apartment block of any size without a structural Engineers sign off.

And what's all this, ''get an American contractor'' in to do the work?? Do you think contractors from other western countries are not up to your standards?? They ARE and in many respects exceed your standards in America. One of the reasons why most dimensioned building materials from the States are not even considered overseas these days, is that the world except for America, uses the metric system, so your stuff doesn't fit anything outside of the states....

As for the new information that's been given, i would say that probably the main reason for this buildings early failure is the rise of ground water coupled with piled footings and the main slab foundation not being deep or wide enough. Then the contractor excavating an underground car park facility under such conditions.
It seems they undermined the footings on one side too much, ...the water logged ground just gave way.  

That's not to say that any of the other things that you pointed out weren't relevant, they very much were. But the building would have probably stood a lot longer before those deficiencies started to show any form of eminent failure such as we see here....

The other relevant fact you pointed out Rocky is that China has a long way to go in fixing appropriate standards to it's building materials and to it's building codes and regulations. It is also another area where corruption rears it's ugly head, in that if you have enough money/influence, you can buy off the local inspectorate (yes, they actually do exist in China) As i stated before, it will eventually come but at a cost, and that cost will be in life's lost!!!

David....

[ttwjr32]

well at least the families werent living in the building when this happened
 thats the good point of the story.