Author Topic: Religion Thread  (Read 87899 times)

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Vince G

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #105 on: July 17, 2009, 01:04:33 pm »
You see Rob, this is how they skimmed around the commandment, I am the Lord thy God, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Unless I send my son down there or a few others, Oh hell everyones a God.

Scottish_Rob

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #106 on: July 17, 2009, 02:37:28 pm »
I know about the holy Trinity....

now my thoughts on this were...
Jesus IS the son of God, yes?
Therefore
There is TWO entities!!:huh:
GOD.....and JESUS....:@

And as Vince pointed out (hehe)maybe not in this thread,  we are all from Adam's bloodline... hehe I'm confused :huh::huh:

Scottish_Rob

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #107 on: July 17, 2009, 02:44:44 pm »
sorry Mike got you confused when I mentioned 'My thoughts...'

I was just talking about GOD and JESUS:huh:

Anyway, I know this may not have anything to do with it, BUT, I have been reading a lot of the posts, and I know this may sound blastphemious, but, knowing what I know about Keren's and my journey on here, I think there definately must be a GOD to guide the two of us together...Sorry to the real religious guy's on here, I am not being flippant here, I'm just trying to say that I am starting to believe again.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 02:49:54 pm by Scottish_Rob »

shaun

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #108 on: July 17, 2009, 10:05:07 pm »
First Tom, the is a thread where we can discuss religion freely and still walk away friends. None of us take anything personal and we all know that there are many differences of opinion.  It is all OK.

Second, Mike here is where we will have to disagree a little.  I do believe in the Trinity but it is never mentioned or explained in the Bible.  The two passages you quoted are the main supportive passages for the concept of the trinity.  Again I said I believe in the Trinity because it makes sense based on the two passages but I would hate to hang my salvation on it.

I will give you a definition of the Trinity but it will be a quote from a man by the name of Pat Robertson. Now, there are people who have issues with him but this is the best definition I have seen to date.  Boy, I hesitate because of the can of worms this will open.

The Trinity is one of the great theological mysteries. The Trinity is defined as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Father is the fountainhead of the Trinity, the Creator, the first cause. He is the primary thought , the concept of all that has been and will be created.

The Son, is the expression of God - the "only begotten" of the Father - and He Himself is God. As God incarnate, He reveals the Father to us.  The Son of God is both the agent of creation and mankind's only Redeemer.

The Holy Spirit, The third person in the Trinity, proceeds from the Father, and is worshiped and glorified together with the Father and the Son.  He inspired the Scriptures, empowers God's people.

In the Holy Eucharist, Catholic communion, the priest says, "In the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Amen."
 Some priests will drop the "God the" off and say, "In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Amen."

This concept has been around for many years and Biblical scholars could tell you a lot more than I could even begin to say.

To keep it simple for me I see it as one God, three aspects.

Third, Rob, don't worry the only blasphemous thing you could do is to deny the existence of God your whole life.  I don't think that is an issue for you.  That is to the best of my knowledge.
Quote from: 'Tiztom' pid='8755' dateline='1247801606'

Peace.....BLOODY PEACE!!!!!!.....You guys are all so self righteous but look at how many wars have been because of bloody religion:@


Tom I went back and re-read your post.  How is it possible that you would know those who believe in God well enough to know if they are self righteous or not?

Yes there have been wars started in the name of religion.  It doesn't mean that they were right. People were burned at the stake by religious people but most all Christians don't believe in that either.  Answer me this. How many wars have been started for things other than religion?  The Gulf war was started because, as it was reported, of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.  Some say it was over oil.

My point is why lump all religious people into one basket and blame them?  I didn't have anything to do with the religious wars of the past just as I didn't have anything to do with the Gulf war.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 10:20:29 pm by shaun »

Offline Tiztom

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #109 on: July 17, 2009, 11:59:30 pm »
Shaun, I don't have a problem with believers, just the holier that thou attitude of some of them, sometimes I watch those crazy American shows like Benny Hin at 4am (when I can't sleep & need a laugh) and I just sit in amazement at how people can actually get sucked in by this rubbish, they all sit there with a stupid grin on their faces forking out money to these evangelist parasites believing everything they say.
No offense Mike but I doubt you could hold a 30min conversation without mentioning something related to religion, seems you are obsessed by it now that you have converted.
The other thing that really s*its me is there are so many different faiths, why? is one better than the other?
I honestly couldn't see myself worshiping an Arab that was born over 2,000 years ago but good on you if you do, just keep it to yourself like most "normal" Christians seem to do.
My ex in laws tried getting my wife & I into it, she gave me a bible for my birthday, 3 weeks later I gave it back to her for Xmas.....she got the hint, religion was never mentioned again & we all got on like a house on fire & 17yrs after the divorce still do.
Being from British (Liverpool & Edinburgh) parents where my father was raised to hate Catholics & I really mean "HATE" for no other reason than the fact they were Catholics religion was never really a subject talked about in our house as he was so sickened of it as a child.
Do all of you guys think the other faiths are as good as your own? I wonder.

shaun

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #110 on: July 18, 2009, 06:54:04 am »
Tom, most of the people at a Benny Hinn revival are people who are looking for a divine intervention in their life. I have a friend whose son had an incurable disease where some king of fungus grew in this throat and lungs.  The young man had many surgeries but it continued to come back, stronger each time.  The father claimed one day that God came to him and told him to take his son to a Benny Hinn Crusade.  He took his son and Benny laid hands on him and prayed for him.  A month later the boy died.

The reason I tell you this story is that many people going to one of Benny's crusades are looking for their last hope and cure.  Funny thing is that there are people that are actually healed at these services.  It amazes me but at the same time I don't think Benny Hinn had anything to do with it.  Jesus tells a person that was healed in the Bible that his faith made him well.  I would almost say that Benny should go away but I do not know what God might be doing so I just ignore him.  If I had a choice of watching him or the worst movie possible I'd either watch the movie or try to go to sleep.

The beautiful thing about Christianity is that if Benny Hinn is dishonest, in the end is the judgment and he will get his and it will be much worse than anyone could imagine.

Mike, the Bible you quote in support of the Trinity is accurate however what I am saying is that the Bible never spell out Trinitarian Theology and that is what we need to be careful about.  You wrote if I remember correctly that the Bible speaks of the Trinity and it does not.  The Bible through selected passages support the idea of the Trinity.

Ron, I grew up on the border, and when I was younger, sang in a few nightclubs and before you say it yes I did it for pay; not much pay but enough to keep me interested for a while. I remember a young hispanic comedian who was a musician also and he sang a song that went to the Beetles tune Hey Jude.  The words went something like this; "Hey Jew, just sit right down, take a listen, to my singin, if you get up, I stick you in the gut, and you begin to sit back down."  Something like that anyway.

Offline Danny

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #111 on: July 18, 2009, 08:48:21 am »
Quote from: 'Tiztom' pid='8755' dateline='1247801606'

Peace.....BLOODY PEACE!!!!!!.....You guys are all so self righteous but look at how many wars have been because of bloody religion:@


That's not really a difficulty to explain. The religious person will just say that the people who have fought these wars are not acting in accordance with the will of God.

However, in my opinion, the really difficult thing for religious people to explain are natural disasters and disease.

For the remainder of my post, I will use the example of an earthquake to make my point.

A religious person will say that all things work together for the glory of God.

An earthquake is something which is described as an "act of God". No man has a say in it happening.

The earthquake causes great suffering and misery. Let us say it causes a school to collapse. Some of the innocent children die in great pain. Other children will be crippled for their whole lives.

A religious person will not be able to explain such an event. The religious person will say that this is a mystery, and the reason for such events occurring will be known when our lives are over.

I don't think this is a sufficient explanation and for me, thinking on such an event gives me confidence that our understanding of God (if such a being exists) is incomplete.

Most religious people think of God as a loving and kind father. But I ask, what father would will permit such an event? What father would think that causing or permitting such an event brings him honour and glory?

A father who sent an earthquake to kill and injure the children at the school would be a monster, and I think prayers to a being that either wills or consents to such things happening are a waste of time.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 08:52:13 am by Danny »

Vince G

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #112 on: July 18, 2009, 10:26:55 am »
Quote from: 'Danny' pid='8901' dateline='1247921301'

A father who sent an earthquake to kill and injure the children


ironically a father like this would be arrested. Brought into court and have to swear on the bible to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Offline Rhonald

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #113 on: July 18, 2009, 11:11:19 am »
Exodus 21/16 Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.
Exodus 21/20 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished.... Scratch my head - what is the difference between slavery and kidnapping.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 11:11:43 am by Rhonald »
Life....It's all about finding the Chicks and Balances

Offline Rhonald

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #114 on: July 18, 2009, 11:56:35 am »
Quote from: 'mpo4747' pid='8915' dateline='1247930335'

way back in time ....People would get into a debt problem, that they could not repay ....

good thing we do not have such troubles today ...  :icon_cheesygrin:

and they could go to prison, or sell a relative (child) into slavery and now that slave is another's property. Usually with a time limit (lease)

so in the first case if I steal your relative (kidnap) I am stealing your property, and I should be punished.

in the second case if I am ruining my own property (slave) and they die ... well then I should be punished, because in most cases my owning a slave was really a "lease" that would expire at some point....


Wow carefull there. First most slaves were the spoils of war not debt. Sell a relative because of your own mistake! They sure thought differently back then, then we do now.

And this is my major grip with written religious laws. The accepted practices of the times are written into laws to ease the conscience of the faithful.

I believe in Evolution, not just physical but spiritual. In-organic material tends to be reduced to more simple stable forms, while organic material tend to add complexity. I am also agnostic so my god is more powerfull then yours....How....Well I Might be right....you Might be wrong. See that is how my God uses Might. I look at the bible and I see evidence of evolution there. The Jews do not view Jesus as being God. The claim is that they view only 1. Christians make the claim that there is a trinity = 3. Christians claim that Jesus introduced the new laws to replace the old view. The trinity is a more complex understanding of God being one and yet 3 distinct parts.

Once many people viewed the world as being flat but with understanding and scientific inquery we understand it is round. Our views changed but the Universe stayed the same. So since I believe life is evolving in complexity, our understanding of this God will also change. God doesn't change but our interpratation will.

If you asked for me to peg my stance... I will say that the Universe created life inorder to be aware of itself. Its purpose has no hidden agenda. The gift each of us are given is the gift of Life. And with this gift each of us experience and contribute.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 11:57:59 am by Rhonald »
Life....It's all about finding the Chicks and Balances

Offline Rhonald

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #115 on: July 18, 2009, 12:23:58 pm »
Quote from: 'mpo4747' pid='8918' dateline='1247933578'

Quote from: 'Rhonald' pid='8917' dateline='1247932595'


Wow carefull there. First most slaves were the spoils of war not debt.




So are all "spoils of war", now the property of the person who took them?

if one nation conquers another, and takes everything .... is it legal? or are they thieves and robbers ??? and who will be their judge?

when do we call in the war police ????

:icon_cheesygrin:


I do not believe in slavery, just in turn I do not believe in conquering. War police? We are the police and we as humanity are doing a terrible job at it. And I guess if my home is being invaded, I can turn to God for salvation, pick up his book and throw it at the intruder, but I hope I have better arms then a black tome to use so that I do not get placed into my own tomb.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 12:28:44 pm by Rhonald »
Life....It's all about finding the Chicks and Balances

Offline Tiztom

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #116 on: July 18, 2009, 12:38:16 pm »
Mike, you ask me what I worship...........I can honestly say I can't think of anything & why do I need to? I am my own person, if I wake up tomorrow, great, if I don't then I guess I'll either make a good BBQ or worm fodder. If I meet a girl who is great in bed I'll worship the ground she walks on for a few days......If I take my car to the drags & at pulls a sub 13second qtr I'll worship it all the way home; I guess the Devil made me do it.
But I must say you have really got that religion bug bad..........You seriously believe as much in the Devil's existence as your God, wow
One thing you guys never answered was which is the best religion? Yours? Mohamed Abdullah's up the road? the Mormon who knocks on your door just as you are about to have a shag on your day off? The family of Seppo's that disturb your Saturday dragging their kids around to annoy people? Scientologists?..........Which one? And don't tell me they are all good or there would only be a need for one Church.
One more thing, why is a cyclone, tsunami etc called an act of God?............Why not an act of Devil?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 12:47:45 pm by Tiztom »

Offline Rhonald

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #117 on: July 18, 2009, 01:41:32 pm »
Quote from: 'mpo4747' pid='8922' dateline='1247936485'

a severe event is called an "act of God', even though the devil may have caused it, because the devil wants God to take the blame


In days of myth and wonderment paganism ruled. Before a major endeavor a tribe member would perform rituals to appease the gods to protect the traveller. Charms would be worn to protect from evil spirits. If during his travels the person was purhaps crushed by a rock slide - maybe it was payment for bad deeds, or maybe he angered some spirit.

Rock slides happen, it is called erosion - not the work of god or the work of the devil.

But if you say that God makes rain to allow things to grow, and in turn rain is a major ingredient to erosion, then once again - Who made the rock slide happen, God or the Devil?

Quote from: 'Tiztom' pid='8921' dateline='1247935096'

One thing you guys never answered was which is the best religion? And don't tell me they are all good or there would only be a need for one Church.


All religions serve a purpose as they attempt to explain the purpose or reason for life. Religions change as the needs of the people change. All religions can be precieved as good if they allow their faitfull to come to terms with the destruction and pain they see around them. So as I have said before, since we living things desire to embrace the complex, our religions will also reflect this confusion and complexity.

I base this on that we humans so desire to be the center of attention, we devise elaborate belifs to justify it. Once the earth was the center of the universe and the stars and sun revolved around it. Who knows, maybe in time, understanding other deminsions, we "Might" once again be placed in the center.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 01:56:23 pm by Rhonald »
Life....It's all about finding the Chicks and Balances

Scottish_Rob

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #118 on: July 18, 2009, 02:04:51 pm »
Hey guy's this is all getting too heated...

Everyone has their OWN belief, it does not matter who is BETTER than WHO, at the end of the day we are all human, for our sins, Does Chrisianity Feed people, does Catholicism Feed people, Does protanstantism Feed people. NO none of them do!!!!!!  Bad things happen in the world as well as some good things, we are all created equal, some do wrong, most do right.

The day MY religion comes knocking on my door and says "Rob here is money, go out and celebrate, or whatever" that will be the day I will TRULY believe that my faith is better than any others.

Tom I think you are misinterpreting Mike here, he is always going to 'defend' his belief, he does mention in many posts his beliefs, but we all that that about him, he is harming NO ONE by doing this.  If you knew your history you would remember that 98% (at least) of American are religious, no matter what faith they are still very religious, he is worse because he also has IRISH ROOTS...And I mean no disrespect to the Irish here, or Mike.

Hopefully there will come a day when ALL nations will live in peace, let's start here....
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 02:07:08 pm by Scottish_Rob »

Offline Rhonald

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #119 on: July 18, 2009, 02:51:16 pm »
Quote from: 'Scottish_Rob' pid='8932' dateline='1247940291'

Hey guy's this is all getting too heated...

Hopefully there will come a day when ALL nations will live in peace, let's start here....


Just another 'piece' of the puzzle Rob and I agree with what you posted. I actual can thank Mike and Shaun for making me flex my mental muscle. I haven't thought about these topics for quite some time.

Makes me want to re-read again a book by Loren Eisley called 'The Star Thrower'. It contains a collection of essays and poems that reflect my own view of this grand journey we call Life.
Quote from: 'mpo4747' pid='8936' dateline='1247942789'


I am off to the Cayuga lake to relax, see you all later on  :)

Mike


Take care brother in heart.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 02:52:07 pm by Rhonald »
Life....It's all about finding the Chicks and Balances