Author Topic: Religion Thread  (Read 87893 times)

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Vince G

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #120 on: July 18, 2009, 03:15:01 pm »
"the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me"

Mmmm lets see he wondered in the desert for a few weeks and then this happen? Do you think he was delusional? Since he was Jewish and they don't believe in the Devil or Hell? So who made up this story? The english translator that works for Chnlove now?

Again, just because it has it in the bible does not make it true. It is a story book to learn a way of life.

David5o

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #121 on: July 18, 2009, 03:24:00 pm »
Religion.......

I've never been religious, or seen anything in religion that would have any interest for me.
I often find that people are always quoting a passage from the bible or other good book, and then putting there own interpretation on that passage. The fact that, ... those same passages were written as someone else's interpretation never seems to get mentioned!!
 
So what is religion, i think the first religions were basically created by some very smart rulers from the very distant past. They had huge areas of territory that they couldn't possibly secure with manpower, What better way of controlling the people , than having the people control themselves!! About 10/15 years ago, someone came up with the same sort of theory, and published evidence to back his claims, I don't know whatever came out of that....

When you go back as far as you can, ...documented, or by stories past down the ages. There has been more wars, more deaths, and more pain caused by religions then all other causes put together. I understand that to be a documented fact, unless any of you here, can document against....

Now we have fundamentalists, mainly Muslim, but also from the other ranks of religion that either want to rule the world under the rules of their particular religion or want something equally as stupid.  They are quite prepared to kill/slaughter themselves, and anyone else that gets in the way of there goals. These people (if you can call them that) genuinely believe, that purposely killing innocent people will martyr them to heaven!!!!!  How can you ever argue with a mindset like that.... you can't and that's why they are so dangerous. So that,  is my other argument with religion, That there is no argument, which means there's no room for commonsense either!

Never quite understood the reason, for so many needing to have religion in there lives. I've lived my life, and it's been a full one up till now, by believing in myself. I know what's right and whats wrong, i know how far i can go without breaking my own rules, even if i have to stretch them here and there at times. If i get into a jam, i get myself out of it, sometimes with the help of others, but still directed by myself. If i need someone or something to lean on, i lean on my partner, or work things out in my own mind, until i come up with a solution or an answer, ...ie: lean on myself.
Don't get me wrong, i have nothing against anyone believing in what ever they want to believe in,  or what ever religion. So long as,  there not hurting, or out to hurt anyone else, or trying to covert others to there way of thinking.

I may in the future tell the story of an Uncle that just loved to debate topics on religion, he was a first class debater and a master of the,  off the cuff, one line humour. (as good as Bob Hope on any day, and on a good day...far better) How long that post will be, God only knows!!  Oooooops, did i say god !

David......

Vince G

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #122 on: July 18, 2009, 03:38:42 pm »
Oh and Mike if this is true that the Devil rules the earth? Wouldn't that mean we are in HELL?  No one can make me believe that the devil rules the earth. Mother Nature is the correct term.

Scottish_Rob

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #123 on: July 18, 2009, 04:20:16 pm »
Vince, this is what i feel like sometimes, we are in hell, with all the suffering that happens on our planet, surely a God, wouldn't let that happen...:s

Hehe Mike sorry no mate not through the stubborness, the Irish roots was said because of your (sounding) so passionate about your religion, throughout the 'Troubles' in Ireland both sets of people were very passionate about their beliefs.:fi_lone_ranger::angel:

No pun intended here but, God bless mother nature.:icon_cheesygrin:

shaun

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #124 on: July 18, 2009, 08:03:56 pm »
Ron, my feeling are the same in that it helps me to exercise my mind. I don't spout off the top of my head unless I am absolutely positive in what I am saying. I have a library of several hundred books and notes I have taken over the years and I turn to them to clarify in my mind prior to responding to all of you.

I am a pastor in the Foursquare Church and not serving in a church at this time.  My studies have wained somewhat and this has been fun for me.  As I walk through this season of divorce, and that not of my own choosing, I have relinquished any position of leadership until I can put this whole issue behind me and have had a chance to stand before the ethics board.  This has been done by my own choosing even though it is required by my denomination.

If you want to know more about Foursquare you can go to www.foursquare.org.  And before someone discovers this, yes it was the church where Forest Gump was baptized.  Watch the movie you will see it.  

I enjoy what is happening on this thread as long as we keep it friendly and do not resort to calling people names.  Nothing here should be taken personal.

There was so much that has been said since I last responded so I am not sure where to start.  The Trinity Theology was mentioned the first time in Genesis 1, notice the capitalization.  "let US make man in OUR image."

The clincher for Jesus being God is simple. (Capitalization again) John 1:1 "in the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was WITH God, and WORD WAS God."  This passage establishes that not only was the word God but that the word was with God.  So if the Trinity doctrine is not true then how can He be God and with God?  So if you do not understand this then in verse 14 it spells it out. "and the WORD BECAME FLESH and dwelt among us.

Both examples are new and old testament.  Jews and Christians.

Acts of God was a phrase coined by the insurance industry.

I am going to stop here.  I don't want this post to take three pages.

Vince G

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #125 on: July 18, 2009, 09:44:59 pm »
This is what I'm hearing.... When it comes to the Trinity

if you're the coach, you must know all the players.
Abbott: I certainly do.
Costello: Well you know I've never met the guys. So you'll have to tell me their names, and then I'll know who's playing on the team.
Abbott: Well, let's see, we have on the bags, Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third...
Costello: That's what I want to find out.
Abbott: I say Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third.
Costello: Are you the manager?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: You gonna be the coach too?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: And you don't know the fellows' names?
Abbott: Well I should.
Costello: Well then who's on first?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: I mean the fellow's name.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy on first.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The first baseman.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy playing...
Abbott: Who is on first!
Costello: I'm asking YOU who's on first.
Abbott: That's the man's name.
Costello: That's who's name?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.
Abbott: That's it.
Costello: That's who?
Abbott: Yes.Costello: Look, you gotta first baseman?
Abbott: Certainly.

Offline Rhonald

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #126 on: July 18, 2009, 09:58:45 pm »
Vince I liked this version better when I believe it was Johnny Carson doing Ronald Regan and being briefed for his day's interview. Found it!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdmULsIEyEI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdmULsIEyEI
I gues comedy is also religious - after all, it does raise the spirits. Also a stiff drink as a toast raises the spirits. Guang Bay:blush:
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 10:04:09 pm by Rhonald »
Life....It's all about finding the Chicks and Balances

Offline Tiztom

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #127 on: July 18, 2009, 10:53:53 pm »
Scottish Rob, a discussion is not a heated argument.

Mike, I can honestly say in my half century on this planet I have NEVER heard anyone say the Devil rules the earth, what religion are you? If you say...get caught speeding or you let rip a huge fart in public which offends the old lady behind you, do you blame the Devil for making you do it? or do you blame yourself, because it seems you have an excuse for everything. And who is right, obviously you would blame the Devil for 9/11 but the Muslims say it was Gods doing or the were following Allah's preaching.........I don't get it!

Shaun, we used to have a foursquare supermarket chain here, may even still be some in country areas lol. Do you believe the Devil rules the earth? Or would this just be the thinking of Mike's Church? If you disagree with Mike and you met up in China for a coffee and he brought the subject up would you debate who was right or wrong?

What would happen if in one room there was a Muslim, a Jew, a Protestant, a Catholic, a 7th day Adventist, a Mormon, a Scientologist  & a few others throw in for good luck and they were told to discuss their religion, do you think it would be a peaceful affair?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 11:03:38 pm by Tiztom »

shaun

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #128 on: July 18, 2009, 11:37:19 pm »
Quote from: 'Tiztom' pid='9001' dateline='1247972033'
Scottish Rob, a discussion is not a heated argument.

Mike, I can honestly say in my half century on this planet I have NEVER heard anyone say the Devil rules the earth, what religion are you? If you say...get caught speeding or you let rip a huge fart in public which offends the old lady behind you, do you blame the Devil for making you do it? or do you blame yourself, because it seems you have an excuse for everything. And who is right, obviously you would blame the Devil for 9/11 but the Muslims say it was Gods doing or the were following Allah's preaching.........I don't get it!

Shaun, we used to have a foursquare supermarket chain here, may even still be some in country areas lol. Do you believe the Devil rules the earth? Or would this just be the thinking of Mike's Church? If you disagree with Mike and you met up in China for a coffee and he brought the subject up would you debate who was right or wrong?

What would happen if in one room there was a Muslim, a Jew, a Protestant, a Catholic, a 7th day Adventist, a Mormon, a Scientologist  & a few others throw in for good luck and they were told to discuss their religion, do you think it would be a peaceful affair?

Tom, if you look back on through this thread you will see that Mike and I do not always see eye to eye. (This is not an oddity) A lot of the time it is how things are phrased. When I retired from the oil business I went back to school for two and one half years and studied religion.  I do not believe that satan or the devil rules over the earth.  The Bible tells me that he runs to and fro over the earth seeking whom he may devour. I do believe he exists but that he get way to much credit for things that happen.  But rule? No.

Sometimes bad things happen because people do stupid things.

Foursquare is a construction term that has two meanings.  One is balance and the second is solid foundation.  That's right your over the pond. That is why I have never heard of a foursquare supermarket.

Finally if a Muslim, a Jew, a Protestant, a Catholic, a 7th day Adventist, a Mormon, a scientololgist, and a leprechaun having a religious discussion?  Whew!  Well, me lads my name is Shaun so I have to throw the leprechaun in.  After all, Tom did say something about good luck. I am what you might call a conflicted person Irish/English heritage.

You heard what happened the last time they got together didn't you?  They suggested Obama run for president. Just kidding.

As far as a peaceful fair, it depends on the people. I have had discussions with the first three groups; me being the Protestant. One of my fondest memories is at the Ron Hotel in Tiberius, Israel at night hearing distant mortar fire and seeing the small flashes from Lebanon while talking with a Muslim and a Jew about religion.  It was a great discussion.

The key to that being successful is in celebrating the shared viewpoints and discussing without offence the differences.  My motto in life is "in the essentials unity, in the non-essentials liberty."

By the way love the new picture, like the old one but this one is much better.
Now that was great.

Vince, Vince, Vince what are we going to do with you.  But I think I understand now. You don't hear so well.  And Ron, I think God laughs at us sometimes. I can hear Him now, "Oui vay! Des people are crazy!!!!
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 11:50:19 pm by shaun »

Offline Tiztom

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #129 on: July 19, 2009, 01:21:39 am »
Thanks for the explanation, you seem pretty sensible about the whole thing without trying to push your thoughts about religion too hard.
Yeah I couldn't find one of Mr bean that looked like Vince's new avatar, I actually thought of getting someone to photoshop Beans head on his new one but that would be pushing it a bit too far.:icon_cheesygrin:
P.S. I think I'm heading straight to hell lol.

shaun

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #130 on: July 19, 2009, 07:52:28 am »
Tom, There are a couple of things I should have mentioned last night.  Mike is a good guy and sincere. Yes, we do not see eye to eye all the time, but I have never felt like he is out in the ozone with his faith.  The way Mike approaches issues and the way I approach them are very different.  It is the same when explaining them.

There are roles, or we like to used the word giftings, within Christianity or the Church.  The true definition of church is a community of Christians (Believers.) It is not a building like most people think.  My gifting is that of a teacher and Mikes is that of a Evangelist.  My gift is to draw people in to listen and learn while Mikes will generally provoke the listener to take some kind of action. You will either be receptive or you will not. You will either want to know more about what he is saying or you will think he doesn't know what he is talking about. Mike, I am sorry if this next point offends, but the closest occupation that relates to an Evangelist personality is a car salesman or you could even say Billy Mays.

The gifts are either something we are born with or learn through life experience. Both my parents were school teachers and my grandfather was except he didn't teach school he taught people how to be mechanics in his auto shop. I was born into this.  I am not sure how Mike came into his gift.

I tell you all this to let you know one, how we approach a subject and two to let you know that Mike is a good guy.

There are more than two roles there are seven and you can see them at work in every community and faith.

Mike says that satan rules over the earth and he can make a case for that is his way of thinking.  There are many Christians who believe that.  I on the other hand do not believe it because it isn't spelled out with the exception of the tribulation period.  To the non-Christian it is the time of Armageddon. Even in the movies that are made about it evil reigns. i.e. mad max, beyond thunderdome, the postman, waterworld, Armageddon...

There is room in Christianity for both of our opinions.  This subject is what I would call a non-essential therefor liberty.

Vince G

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #131 on: July 19, 2009, 11:00:39 am »
Yeah, I know I'm a Rebel, a Pagan and whatever else you want to call me? Good and Bad happens to everything on this earth. We define it as this but it is not always so. A rainstorm may make floods and wash away homes and maybe some people and we say it was a bad thing to happen. But for the earth it has washed away to renew growth. It's all in the eye of the person.

All the God, Devil talk above are speculations, illusions and threats. Do it our way or else.... Sorry, no one ever will control me. I make my own choices. Christians have if you say these prays, sing this song, confess your sins God will forgive you. For now, unless you don't say this pray 15 times?

The Jewish religion has one special day to redeem themselves for God to forgive them. So once a year they have this.
Isaiah 55:6
Yom Kippur is the Sabbath of Sabbaths, the most Solemn day of the Jewish calendar. On this day, Jews around the world reflect on their lives and give thanks to God for their many blessings. The Rabbis teach that on Yom Kippur, God holds open the gates of Heaven and listens to every word of every prayer. As those final prayers are shared and the Shofar is sounded, God remembers every name--those living and those ...

SINS: All throughout the Bible it says we are forgiven for our sins? Sins? This depends on which religion you belong to. You smoke cigarettes? That's a sin? HUH? If you don't give one quarter of your paycheck to the church that is a sin? What's a sin is manipulating and outright lying to these people, preying on their fears. All so the head muckety-muck could have a Rolex and a Rolls to drive. Even the Catholic church has it's collections of treasures stored away.

God said (?) to Noah after he flooded the earth, he will never again cause suffering to people again? So did he mean all at one time? Because there is suffering happening. Jesus died on the cross for OUR SINS? You would think this would wipe the slate clean? So what happen? A minute later all the sins are back?

I have said this for years, when the time comes and I see with my own eyes Satin or Jesus I know what side I will stand on. Until then? the Bible is a good story book.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 11:03:45 am by Vince G »

Scottish_Rob

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #132 on: July 19, 2009, 11:09:58 am »
Sorry guy's I just 'felt' that it was all becoming too heated....:s

Apart from on here, I'm not used to Debating or having a meaningful discussion with my peer group here in the Uk, sometimes you can say something and it will kick off rather than 'discussed' so I feel maybe it's better sometimes just to  not say a lot.:sleepy:

Offline Tiztom

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #133 on: July 19, 2009, 02:15:55 pm »
Shaun, I have no doubt that Mike is a good guy (totally obsessed) but a good guy with good intentions.
Mike, does your church have a name? How long ago did you convert & why, there must have been something that set you on this journey where it seems religion has taken over your mind and you talk and listen to dead people, do you find people avoid you more now than before you converted?
I just find it totally fascinating how someone can do a total flip in their way of thinking. Did something tragic happen to turn you to God or was it just something you decided to do?
I'm not taking the piss either, I'm just trying to understand how something so major can happen to someone.
I'm afraid I'm with Vince, I'll believe it when there is positive proof like an interview on TV with one of them or Jesus invites me out for dinner & turns the water into wine.

Arnold

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RE: Religion Thread
« Reply #134 on: July 19, 2009, 02:21:52 pm »
Quote from: 'mpo4747' pid='9107' dateline='1248026455'

Rob,
you are fine mate...

we each are presenting our views, no two people see things the same way ....  but we can seek to understand, and accept the reality that we are different, and that is OK

I like everyone here, and hope they feel the same for me ...


Shaun,
wow, no one ever told me I was an Evangelist, now that gives me something to think about .... am I to go in that direction???


Vince,
God used the flood to wipe out the earth, destroying all life, except those that were preserved in the Ark. Purging the earth of all evil, and after he was done, he promised Noah (made a covenant) not to ever do that again. Did it fix the problem humanity caused in the Garden of Eden?
No, it just cleaned up the world for a time, but then the world filled up again with imperfect, and sinful people. People that sinned.

Only the work of Jesus at the cross could really fix the problem, and redeem us from the fall.

satan tricked Eve, and Adam, causing them to lose relationship with God, and to fall into sin. It also caused God to leave the earth, and the earth fell into sin and corruption ... was satan clever?
yes, he (satan) gained the whole world, stealing from man, and removing God, so that he (satan) could take over..... no wonder we (people) suffer, and starve, and endure disease, and all kinds of terrible things, this is the goal of the evil one, to corrupt, and kill, and destroy.

Only Jesus could pay the price and redeem the world back to God, and for us, and until Jesus returns and claims the full title and then sets foot on earth and claims what is rightfully his .... for now satan has free run all over the earth. One day the lease will run out on satan, and the whole world will be redeemed, and returned back to God.

Mike


... no two People see thing's the same way ?
Mike , I know you and I are very close of how we view the " Good Book " . As my Journey has brought me a lot closer ( back to God ) , knowing that it was a blessing from above and NOT just MY doing's .
Quote from: 'Tiztom' pid='9112' dateline='1248027355'

Shaun, I have no doubt that Mike is a good guy (totally obsessed) but a good guy with good intentions.
Mike, does your church have a name? How long ago did you convert & why, there must have been something that set you on this journey where it seems religion has taken over your mind and you talk and listen to dead people, do you find people avoid you more now than before you converted?
I just find it totally fascinating how someone can do a total flip in their way of thinking. Did something tragic happen to turn you to God or was it just something you decided to do?
I'm not taking the piss either, I'm just trying to understand how something so major can happen to someone.
I'm afraid I'm with Vince, I'll believe it when there is positive proof like an interview on TV with one of them or Jesus invites me out for dinner & turns the water into wine.


When you believe in God , you will " SEE " his work ( miracle's ) right in front of you . That is one of the reason I want to write my Book of this Journey to find my Wife . To show that Miracles do happen ... BUT ... for the none-believer's , they will be BLIND to them . My late Wife's death , was needed to OPEN my Eyes .
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 02:27:55 pm by Arnold »