Religion Thread

[Rhonald]

There is a story in the Bible that can be found in Matthew 19:16-21.  It is called, The Rich Yong Ruler. He asks Jesus, "What good things must I do that I may have eternal life."  Jesus tells him to keep the commandments. The young man said "Which one?" Jesus basically said all of them. Then the young man said "All these thing I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?"
Jesus said, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor..."

The word whole does not even fit here. So I went back to the Greek language that the Bible was written in a looked up the definition of the Greek word perfect was translated from.  The word in Greek is teleios is from the root word telos. Telos means to set out for a definite point or goal. Teleios is complete as in various applications of labor, growth, mental or moral character.  Complete when relating to full age, man, perfect.

A person could use whole but when your read the story and understand its implications in that the young ruler wanted to achieve the goal of eternal life or going to heaven he was looking for a results oriented solution. IMHO it appears he wanted to skip the process and get to the target point. Perfect.  Whole has the implications as in a medical term as "not sick."  It can also be uninjured, undamaged, or unbroken; undivided as in one piece.  Integral not a fraction.

I kindly disagree with your assessment and I believe Jesus was trying to make the man understand to be whole (or as you stated - complete) -not perfect. You are right that the rich man was looking for a shortcut. He thought that once he reached perfection, his task was done. Because once perfection is attained, you do not need to do anything. But being complete, or whole still requires a monitoring of the state to maintain completness.

Jesus told the man that there could only be the One that is good. And for the man to enter life, he just had to obey the commandments, nothing more. But the man wanted more and from how I interpret Jesus, he mocked the man by saying to be perfect he had to sell his goods. If you claim that nobody can be perfect, then why would Jesus offer the man an option to be perfect? Jesus knew the man could not be perfect but by just following his 1st advice about following the commandments, the rich man could be whole.

For when it comes to science they disclaim it. But when it can prove parts of the bible they use science as proof?

Yes Vince I agree with first hand evidence by the Jehovah witness. I had one follower encouraging me to read a book denouncing evolution. In it they showed the problems with radiocarbon dating. I took palentology and anthropolgy classes so I also know its limitations. However this book I was reading said you could not trust radiocarbon dating at all for supporting evolution. But later in the tail end of the book when they were placing in time a religious artifact, they used radiocarbon dating to indicate its age.:huh:

[Danny]

Tom, another word for fear is respect.

I would suggest that God is someone to be feared rather than to be respected.

In 1 Samuel 6:19, for example, God killed thousands and thousands of people simply because they looked at him:

And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter.

[Tiztom]

Well now I'm confused Danny, do I fear God or do I fear the Devil? Just a whole big world of fear out there by the sound of it! Think I'll stay a non believer...........Nothing to fear & only myself to answer to.

[shaun]

Shaun I have heard this "There is more evidence showing the Bible and Jesus are real than actual evidence that evolution is real" Several times (only by holy rollers on TV) and I don't understand it? The question isn't between if the bible is real or not against evolution it is if the story of Atom and Eve is real against evolution. To that there is more evidence of evolution. Even going back to the original statement. Not so either. They do not actually know where Jesus was buried, Where cross was, or even when he was born. Further more they don't know where Moses crossed for their escape or where he saw the burning bush. No evidence that the earth was flooded in Noah's time. So I think that statement is conveniently used. For when it comes to science they disclaim it. But when it can prove parts of the bible they use science as proof?

Trying to condense the information to put on this site would be futile and no one would want to read such a long post. Yes, not everything in the Bible can be backed up with doccumentible  but there is so much that is.  I would like to suggest a good book that accurately portrays where evidences are and where evidence is lacking.  It is called The Bible unearthed ISBN 0-684-86913-6.  I would recommend looking on half.com.  They seem to have the best bargains.

[Vince G]

Fear, Fear, Fear, What is he going to do KILL ME? I'm suppose to fear this? Lets look at another passage, God Knows All and God has written the life of everyone. So when it's time it's time, No FEAR.

[David5o]

Don't we have enough to worry about in this world, without having to worry about fearing God and or the Devil. All this hellfire and brimstone stuff should be left in the reams of history where it belongs.... all are just figments of someones, long, long past away imaginations..... You can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say, depending what you want to believe.  How many times has that been proved!!

The only religious thing in this age, we should be worrying about are these bloody fundamentalists.... because they are REAL, and they DO live among us. And they can't be convinced that any other way, apart from theirs is the right way.
What do we fight these people with, ''Human Rights''  The fact they have no interest in any one's human rights themselves , doesn't seem to matter!!   So, how about God, (or whatever else you want to call it), sorting this little problem out for us mere mortals?? That's not going to happen though is it!! And you'll have 1001 reasons why, too. None will make any sense to a free thinking person....

As far as I'm concerned, you can torture these animals  from dawn to dusk, if it means you can save just one, innocent life from the information you can drag out of them......  


David.....

[David5o]

I've read over and over what i had posted here, where on earth do you see bullying and fighting anybody, where did you get that from??  

It's no good quoting passages to me Mike, as i said, you can bend whatever it says in the bible to say what you want it to say......

I don't have any religious belief Mike, i use my life experience, my common sense, my gut feelings along with my general mindset to carry me on through life. and I've done pretty well so far....  

Braveheart and his meaning of freedom, and the heaven and hell thing do, belong in the distant past. It's only people like yourself that won't let it pass away into history.

Where a confirmed Islamic fundamentalist terrorist is concerned.... you bet!! There not your usual common or organised criminals Mike, and treating them as such is plain idiotic, and won't get you anywhere. These are totally brain washed religious fanatics that have no respect for life, theirs or anybody else's, anyone and everyone is fair game to them. They use any weakness they find, to further there aims.  So if it takes torture to get vital information out of them ...so be it!!  Something like the Christians of the middle ages might have used.....Go and live in Saudi, or an equally Islamic country, and witness the hatred and the emptiness behind the eyes, then tell me I'm wrong!!

No i don't believe in turning the other cheek, ....I have to live in the real world, ....like it or not !!

David.....

[Vince G]

Luke 12:5
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

No, God will not kill you Vince ...there is something much worse then that

Ah yes Luke, He runs the diner down the road here. Makes one hell of a coffee. lol Glad you brought this up. Depends which bible you read.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

GOD'S WORD Translation (©1995)?I'll show you the one you should be afraid of. Be afraid of the one who has the power to throw you into hell after killing you. I'm warning you to be afraid of him.

King James Bible?But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

These are from the verse.."God Knows and Cares" sure sounds like it? God will cradle you in his arms and then snap your neck? Yeah! Good teaching.

Is this the "Do what I say not as I do" rule?

[shaun]

I was going to take a sabbatical from this thread for a few days but Vince I can't after your most recent comment. A few pages back you made the accusation that we pick a little here and a little there suggesting that we take things out of context. Well you just did the same thing.

The word fear in this passage is the Greek word phobeo which means to frighten, i.e. (passive) to be alarmed; (by analysis) to be in awe of, i.e. revere, be afraid, (fear) exceedingly, reverence.

That one word can mean all of the things written above.  If you read Luke 12:1-7 and look at it from an contextual view you see that Jesus is warning people who listen to Pharisees who practice hypocrisy openly.  He goes on to say that the disciples should not fear(frighten or be alarmed by) their enemies but the are to fear (or reverence) God because He has control over your eternal life.  The bible quite often plays on words.

Vince, please do not take this next comment as an offence but please understand.  There is an old saying, "I am a jack of all trades but a master of none."  Vince, you know enough of the Bible sometimes to be dangerous with your comments.  In this most recent post contextually you were way wrong in your analysis.

When I do not understand what a passage in the Bible is saying, I reserve my comments and study it until I do have an understanding of it. Sometimes it takes a lot of reading and meditating and then read it again.

Why is it, as it appears to me, that you willingly accept the writings of people who contradict the Bible or say that it is a nothing more than a bunch of stories made up to scare people into submission but you doubt a lot of the Bible? Forgive me for saying this but I just don't get your logic when it comes to the Bible.

Or is it more tragic than I stated above, that you enjoy being controversial when it comes to Christianity? I.E. you try to yank people chains for fun?

[Vince G]

Yes there is the old saying.."I am a jack of all trades but a master of none." But the new Vince saying is "I am a jack of all trades but a master of All." I'm not going to make a list here but you can count on it being the truth.

"take things out of context" How else would I answer and debate what was written unless I use the same context?

"willingly accept the writings of people who contradict the Bible - but you doubt a lot of the Bible?" Because the people that write about contradiction of the bible have the same thoughts as I, that's why? Silly question? And NO I'm not yanking peoples chains but I do have some humor in it for I know it falls on deaf ears. None what to step back and see the whole picture. To afraid to? I find it ridiculous that one line says he loves and will never harm and the next says he will send to hell for what? Not saying a pray right? And FYI I didn't say "it is a nothing more than a bunch of stories made up to scare people into submission" those are not my words. But much like the bible it gets interpreted as seen fit.

You don't see the phases of Luke as a scare tactic? You don't see this as something invented? HELL? Something the jewish people never believed in? And going by the recent posts...why would we have to be afraid of Hell when the Devil is on and controls the earth? I think it must have been the first post I had in here that I said when things can't be explained they say it's devils talk, the devil made me ask it?

So going by the above posts If I don't fear death god will kill me and put me in hell? Am I reading this right? Nonsense. They did a great job of corralling peoples fears. No matter which way you turn your doomed. Even if you believe, pray everyday and do all they tell you to do? Your still getting your ass roasted? No Thanks, I'll take my chances without the stories of when people were foolish enough because of their ignorance.

[Rhonald]

"HIC SVNT DRACONES" So stay on land where all that is spirtually recorded is all that we need. To question and seek our own understanding of that which is hidden imperils our own soul. Do not question, do not presume to know more than what was written before.

I do not fear God because he has given me the freedom to chose and question. Do I blindly follow after others because that was what was done in the past? Or do I brave a new path that might take me into other realms and discover that which has not yet been revealed.

I have a theory I wish to put forward for debate:

When anthroplogists study tribal groups they notice that when a tribe approaches 7 family groups in size, the first fulltime political postion is made (ie: chief). Close behind but usually second at around 10 family groups the first fulltime spiritual appointment is made (ie: shaman, priest). This leads me to believe that politics, or power, is more important then spiritual needs.

My examples:

I have just finished reading the first two parts of the book "The Lion, the Fox & the Eagle". Talk about a useless UN Nations. Anyways, I have always admired Israel in how they said enough is enough and took a stance against genocide of their people. So needless to say I was shocked when I read the book that Israel was supplying weapons to the Rwanda government when it was known that they were engadged in genocide. France was also supplying weapons and military intellegence. The author could only put forth his reson for Frances support because if the minority won, it had a history of anglo support. The French so detisted the Anglos that they rather support an evil majority even though it was spirtually bankrupt. For the Israels - no opinion was raised for there interferrance.

Why was Jesus killed? Because he was upsetting the status quo. It doesnt matter if Jesus was the son of God, whether he was right or wrong. Jesus didn't die because he claimed to be equal to God. Jesus died because politics will trump spirtuality almost all the time.

[shaun]

Believe me when I say, I question everything especially what spiritual leaders say. This is what began my research into ancient documents, into the theologians of old who have stood the test of time, and eventually lead me into becoming a pastor. Religious viewpoint can easily be misrepresented without the church member even knowing it. Why are they mislead? Because they will not take the time to study and dig deep into the meaning of what is written. To understand you have to go back to the original language and see the definition of the words, you need to understand the context in which the passage is in, you need to understand the history of the period of which it is written, and you need to understand they personality of the person writing the passage.

In reference to the Luke text I gave the Greek definition for the word fear and put it into the context of the passage.  Let me use this as an example. If I take two bare wires and insert them into a wall electrical outlet it will shock me.  As I insert the wires I will have fear because I know what to expect and pain is one of the things I expect.  Because of the understanding I have in reference to the results I respect electricity and will not put the wires into the wall.  Both can be defined as fear but they are two different feelings and approach.

In the context of the passage mentioned Jesus talked about the Pharisees and their hypocrisy. The hypocrisy was intentional and they should fear God. On the other hand the disciples feared their enemies much like I fear electricity if I were to abuse its nature but Jesus told them not to.  He taught them to respect God.  When Jesus speaks of killing and casting into hell he is referencing the Pharisees who are intentional hypocrites and the passage is a warning to the disciples that this could be them if they fall into the same errors.

You mentioned that the Jews do not believe in hell. This may be true for liberal Jews, I wouldn't know but the Jews of the Bible did believe in it.  It is written about in the Old Testament.  It is in the Psalms, Proverbs, and Isaiah wrote about it; all Jews, in fact the people who wrote about it in the New Testament were Jews too.  Satan is written about too.  Look at the book of Job. He is mentioned in 1st Chronicles, Job,  and Zechariah just to name a few.

Vince I didn't say Satan was in control of the earth.  I do not believe he is.  I do believe he torments people on earth.  But hell and satan are not scare tactics that the Jews so not believe in, there is evidence in the Bible that they do believe in it.

Rhon, there aren't any dragons here.  Even in Biblical times politics carried much more weight than the spiritual aspect.  It was explained to me once a long time ago and I really do not remember what was said or that I read.  There has always been tension between politics and religion. The only person in recent history that could balance them was Gerald Ford.  Jesus' message to us was to give(render) the thing that belong to politics(Caesar) to politics(Caesar) and the things that belong to God to God.

As far as the issue of Israel supplying weapons to Rwanda, I don't know or have studied an issue about that.

Vince, there have been several people who have written against the writing in the Bible only to be discredited themselves.

Early in this thread I told you that I would try occasionally to hook two different passages together with a conceptualized idea of my own to help make passages in the Bible be better understood. If you remember I gave you the example of Cain marrying his sister.  But I have never added to or taken away from the passages that are written.  I don't think I would ever do that.  This was the reason I responded to your first writing to the Luke 12 passage.  If you only accept the writings of people you already agreed with prior to you reading what they wrote, then you really aren't as open minded and free thinking as you think you are.  You didn't get where you are today for being closed minded in your learning, why would you be closed minded to the validity of the Bible.  At one point in my life I was the same a you but I studied and found truth.

[David5o]

**OK, so you are talking about Islamic fundamentalist terrorists, and the fact that they torture people, this is awful stuff, and very hard to deal with.

as you say some of these people are very twisted, and have no respect for life, or others, they want to wipe Israel off the map, and the US as well....

I am not sure where this came from, but I agree with you there too **

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Mike,

Where it came from Mike, ...is that i believe this is the only religious area that anyone needs to address in the world right now. And the only ''Fear'', that we need to worry about......

I'm using the Islamic fundamentalists as an example, they are after all, the main terrorist treat to this world at the moment. But if there were a similar Christian fundamentalist terrorist group, ....as far as I'm concerned, the same would apply to them too.

There just isn't room in today's world for such individuals that are trying to take the world back 1500/2000 years. These people want to disregard the progress the worlds made in those years, and to take us back to a time that's described in the Koran/Bible.  Would any of today's sane free thinking people, want to live a life, as the Taliban had the Afghan's living before they were ousted?? That is, to my mind what fundamentalism is all about....   Oh, it's not just Israel and the USA they want to wipe away, it's all that won't bend to there way of thinking.......

As i have said previously, i have no problem really, with those that want to believe there is something else out there, other than what you can see and/or touch. So long as they don't pose harm to anyone, and don't try to ''Impose'' their belief onto others.

One thing i will clear up from my previous post, where i mentioned Saudis etc, I was talking mainly about the Imam's and other religious leaders there, absolute fruitcakes everyone of them.... but bloody dangerous fruitcakes!!  

I may tell you a story sometime, of an event i witnessed in a Saudi shopping mall during an evening Prayer-time....haha!!

David....

[shaun]

**OK, so you are talking about Islamic fundamentalist terrorists, and the fact that they torture people, this is awful stuff, and very hard to deal with.

as you say some of these people are very twisted, and have no respect for life, or others, they want to wipe Israel off the map, and the US as well....

I am not sure where this came from, but I agree with you there too **

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Mike,

Where it came from Mike, ...is that i believe this is the only religious area that anyone needs to address in the world right now. And the only ''Fear'', that we need to worry about......

I'm using the Islamic fundamentalists as an example, they are after all, the main terrorist treat to this world at the moment. But if there were a similar Christian fundamentalist terrorist group, ....as far as I'm concerned, the same would apply to them too.

There just isn't room in today's world for such individuals that are trying to take the world back 1500/2000 years. These people want to disregard the progress the worlds made in those years, and to take us back to a time that's described in the Koran/Bible.  Would any of today's sane free thinking people, want to live a life, as the Taliban had the Afghan's living before they were ousted?? That is, to my mind what fundamentalism is all about....  

As i have said previously, i have no problem really, with those that want to believe there is something else out there, other than what you can see and/or touch. So long as they don't pose harm to anyone, and don't try to ''Impose'' their belief onto others.

One thing i will clear up from my previous post, where i mentioned Saudis etc, I was talking mainly about the Imam's and other religious leaders there, absolute fruitcakes everyone of them.... but bloody dangerous fruitcakes!!  

I may tell you a story sometime, of an event i witnessed in a Saudi shopping mall during an evening Prayer-time....haha!!

David....

David, I am not in or at least do not think I am in the group you and the new media call the religious fundamentalist group you speak of.    However that being said, I do believe they have received a lot of press that is inaccurate. I also believe they create some of their own problems.  

All through Christian history there have been people that give Christianity a bad name because of what they do.  Even today in Jerusalem you can find the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox Churches sitting next door to each other, fighting with each other, and occasionally trying to kill each other.

If you read the teachings of Jesus His main emphasis is for the believer to get his own heart right with and have a personal relationship with God.  He stood for injustice but it was against the Pharisees(in modern terms the leadership of the church) and the Sadducees (these men were  the agents within the church that protected the high priest and were quite often had conflict with the Pharisees).  Jesus taught people to respect the government.

In my opinion the fundamentalist have become the Sadducees in modern time trying to protect the church from the government. The government has, in my opinion gone awry with the issue of abortion in that the governments primary function is to protect human life. My disagreement with the fundamentalist is the way they are trying to change the laws.  I don't have a problem with peaceful demonstration in front of an abortion clinic as long as it is legal.  When it becomes illegal or they intentionally break the law it breaks the intent of Jesus' teachings. It is even OK to vote on a candidate based on how they would vote for abortion issues. (It's not advisable in todays political climate.)

Most of the fundamentalist I have met are good and well intentioned people but they don't necessarily want you to be forced to believe what they believe, they have a problem being forced to support and believe what you believe politically.  With this one statement in mind who is wrong here?

The three basics of what Jesus taught is develop personal relationship, live and preach Jesus to the world out of the relationship you have with God, and disciple those who choose the path you have chosen.

Things you will never hear from me:  Condemnation for what you believe, insult you because of what you believe, and forcing you to believe as I do.

I do have a political opinion and I may share a little of it occasionally but I submit to the authority that is over me.

[David5o]

Shaun,

No, i don't classify you or Mike as fundamentalists. ...hahaha!!

Religions have been fighting amongst each other since time imorial, so that nothing new at all. ....What they have ever gained or achieved from there fighting, ....Nothing i can see, just the multitudes of deaths of their followers and there foe's.

When i talk about religious fundamentalists, I'm really only talking about the terrorist factions. Those that go with intention to kill and maim as many innocent people as they possibly can,  with the simple aim of bringing their cause to public attention, and to instill fear into the populous.  In fact anything that will in there minds, bring there aims a little closer.... (Rule by Fear Mindset)

Shaun, i'm not going to get into the abortion thing, ....That's a whole new can of worms, especially when religion get's involved with peoples personal rights,...peacfully or otherwise!! Save to say, we have similar demonstrations in the UK, but nothing like,  ...in the fanatical way you have in the States....

Anyway, i hope i haven't insulted you or Mike or anyone else here, I'ts just my veiws on what's been written. ie, Throwing my two pennies worth into the pot.

David.....