Religion Thread

[Danny]

Danny,

Who the hell's going to thank someone for let's say ....robbing them, and smacking them in the gob in the process?? Same thing isn't, ...you just ain't gonna thank anyone that does you a bad turn ...God or anyone else!!

David....

I deleted my post. Discussion about religious topics always brings out the grumpy side of me *laughs*

[Rhonald]

Sorry David "BAC" what does that mean? Enlighten me please:idea:

And yes I enjoy the Aussie's laid back mentality.

[shaun]

Well you have the Koran in english, does it say that?

Back to this girl.

David E
It is a mystery to me, and to most of the World that a country like America, that started as a British Colony only yesterday, got independence, embraced slavery, killed off all the local indiginous folk, almost single handed won 2 world wars, rose to become the greatest economic powerhouse the world had ever seen, put men on the moon and invented everything from edible knickers, flavoured condoms, transistors and hydrogen bombs.....then recently, just about brought the world to its knees by massive and endemic economic mismanagement can also produce such a diverse and weird bunch of religious psychos who all have their own guarantee that their way of looking at religion is better than anybody elese's

Vince, I checked the references an other than the translation issues, they are the same.  When I read this coupled with what I have seen I am convinced that their plan is similar to the borg from Star Trek; assimilate or die.

There is no escaping that the Koran encourages murder for infidels.

As far as the girl, for now I will stay clear of the subject as I do not know anything about it.

David E, what can I say. You've grouped every religious person as back woods idiots. I will admit that there are some real goofy people in religion but there are intelligent and articulate and well educated people there also. I don't care what organization or religious group or political preferences people subscribe to, there are crazies and intellectuals in all  of the groups.  When people need speaking points to portray  some organization in a negative light they turn to the crazies as examples for an unflatterring look.

I would ask you to rise above that kind of thought and communication and try to discuss issues and facts.  This thread is here to allow a healthy debate pertaining to religious viewpoints.  We hold no punches here but we also do not insult each other.

With that in mind speak on brother.

[shaun]

Sorry to hear that David.  I'm not sure why you feel that way but each man is entitled to his own opinion and religious beliefs.  You can remove your own post yourself, you don't need a mod.

I just have one question though. :huh::huh: Does this mean we will not talk with each other in other threads? :icon_cry:

[David5o]

There is no argument with Muslims in the Middle East, or with most of the others.
There RIGHT and your WRONG!! ....End Of Story!!  
I know, I've lived and worked there for too long to know, I'd be banging my head on a brick wall, because as far as their religion is conserned there heads do have an in-built brick wall around it.... An ''Impenetrable'' brick wall!!

David....

[Vince G]

I am always careful not to group together any type of people. With my experience it is never "ALL" of them. Believe me when I say I have been the only white face in the crowd at times. And I still speak my mind and get invited to their parties and homes.

After 9-11 muslims went into hiding and I can understand that. At around that time I use to go to an ice cream shop nearby, still do once in a while. When the owner is there we have lite conversations. After 9-11 in the middle of talking he made sure he told me he wasn't a muslim? I just said it wouldn't matter. But this brings back the "All" thing. I can't blame All for the nutty few.

For the ones living in the muslim world over there in the middle east? I can't relate to them. I can't wrap my brain around that ALL are like that. I can understand that they believe they are right in doing these things? but I wish I could show them they're not.

[David5o]

Vince,

And there lies the problem, you can't show them, and even if you could they would still not change there minds .... It's Sad, but it's also very True!!

David......

[shaun]

I am always careful not to group together any type of people. With my experience it is never "ALL" of them.

For the ones living in the muslim world over there in the middle east? I can't relate to them. I can't wrap my brain around that ALL are like that. I can understand that they believe they are right in doing these things? but I wish I could show them they're not.

Vince, I agree with the all but it would not be unfair to categorize the radicals as most.  It has been my experience with Arabic Muslims that they don't really trust each other.

[David5o]

Shaun,

That is a fact, not just from your experience. None of the Arab Nations trust each other, basically because they believe they are like themselves, so in truth they don't even trust themselves let alone anyone else.
Now that shows you what real Muslim brotherhood is all about, ....Right!! ...hahaha!!

David.....

[shaun]

Shaun,

That is a fact, not just from your experience. None of the Arab Nations trust each other, basically because they believe they are like themselves, so in truth they don't even trust themselves let alone anyone else.
Now that shows you what real Muslim brotherhood is all about, ....Right!! ...hahaha!!

David.....

Vince, this next comment is not meant to single you out but is based on my experience and knowledge and is not a racial elitist kind of thing either.  What David5o and I said in the last two posts is true, it is sad but true.

I have several Muslim friends and have spoken with them privately and most agree with my assessment. I've asked them why they live this way and basically they tell me it is what it is.

It is mostly about their family and belief.  I think I have mentioned this here before but in 1994 I was at a motel in Tiberius Israel, sitting with a group of Muslim men talking.  They were bus drivers for tour companies there. One driver is a friend of mine and there was a new one there.  I was welcomed to sit there because of my friend.

It was night time and we were close to the border of Lebanon and we could hear mortar fire and see little flashes of light.  We were talking politics and religion and to many Muslims there is not a clear line of distinction between the two subjects.

I asked the new guy what he thought about Saddam Hussein.  He praised him.  I asked him about Yasser Arafat and he said he cursed him and spat on him.  Since he was a Palestinian I asked why he felt that way. He told me, "Arafat is an American puppet who would sell his own mother for fame and money and would kiss a Jews a$$ to get what he wants."  So I asked he why he liked Hussein and he said, "Because he wants to kill all of the Jews."  I was shocked because he worked for Jews.

This was right after the Gulf War.  Earlier that day we had drove through Haifa and through the area where Saddam Hussein's scud missiles had landed.  Remembering that I made a comment/question, "Sir if Hussein had his way, he would kill everyone in Israel including you, your wife and your children."  He looked me dead in eye and said, "If he killed all of the Jews too then I praise Saddam Hussein."  I about peed in my pants.  That night completely transformed my thinking about Muslims.

Most people in this world can't even begin to understand that kind of mindset and that is why we are having such difficulties.

I will stop right here because it will get too political from this point.

[Vince G]

Let those without sin cast the first stone.

[David5o]

Mike,

I don't want to rain on your parade about the Christian idealogy. But there are more than just a few, Christian sects in America, that are more than prepared to harm, injure, and kill to get there own message across too!!

David.....

[Rhonald]

[Most people in this world can't even begin to understand that kind of mindset and that is why we are having such difficulties.

After reading the book "The Lion, the Fox & the Eagle" about the Rawanda massacre and the genocide practiced in Bosnia encouraged by world wide apathy, I dislike the slant leveled towards the Muslim religion from these last posts.

It was supposedly Christian people doing the massacres. In Rawanda Christians against Christians, and in Bosnia Christians against Muslims. This same mindset that was mentioned above was in abundant supply by the perpetrators in both conflicts. When people have a hate on, they might use religion as a defining justification, but lets face it, justificators will grasp at any straw to defend their stance.

Quite a few leaders were as Shaun said in a previous post "but there are intelligent and articulate and well educated people there also" that planned and carried out the massacre. So intelligence and articulation, as well as backwoods idiots all contribute to our so called human condition.

Lets face it, we all can do evil, and it is the shadow side in all of us that allowed release, causes chaos and destruction. You can say it is in the name of any God or idealology, but evil starts and ends with us.

"Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows ... "

[Rhonald]

Rhonald - we all have the capacity for evil, and we are all guilty of wrong doing to some extent.... no one is perfect, no one is sinless. Murder is wrong no matter who you are. If a gang of people are killing another gang, and they say they are christian .... well they are murders and liars. And they are not really follows of Jesus.

I agree - thus my reference to the shadow side of us. But I also believe our dual nature and salvation has nothing to do with Jesus. I believe our ability to express hatered and/or Love starts from our inner self. There are no outside entities that directs us down either pathway with hidden promises or veiled threats. We make the choice and we have badly used either religion or idealologoy to justify the crimes.

And as far as God Loves or God Hates......I believe if there is a God, then God is neutral. This sense of Love and Hate is our own immature development. If you look at the word EVIL then understand its opposite is not LOVE but is LIVE. And except for most plants and other smaller life forms, all of LIFE needs something to not LIVE in order to survive and LIVE itself. Our food source is from what once lived. So if there is a God that created this universe - then God requires something to die for us to live.

I remember reading about how early settlers coming to the new world expressed religious wonder at the glory of God's work by allowing dieases to reduce the native population. They saw this as God's resolve to pave the way for their settlements. So these where not murderes and killers commiting sins - but their views highlight the fundlmental fault I see in us humans and how religion can shape moral views.

[Vince G]

When a group says they want to kill, and wipe out another group, that is based on hatred. And that is not from God.

This is what I am saying. I'm just taking it a little further into all religions. Any religion taken from the bible does not have hatred towards others in it. It is those that have taken it a bit further that do this hating.