Religion Thread

[David K]

A minister dies and is waiting at the Pearly Gates.
Ahead of him is a guy who's dressed in sunglasses,
a loud shirt, a leather jacket, and jeans.

Saint Peter addresses this guy,
"Who are you, so that I may know whether or
not to admit you to the Kingdom of Heaven?"

The guy replies, "I'm Joe Cohen, taxi driver, of Noo Yawk City."

Saint Peter consults his list.
He smiles and says to the taxi driver,
"Take this silken robe and golden staff and enter the Kingdom of Heaven."
The taxi driver goes into Heaven with his robe and staff.
Then it's the minister's turn.

He stands erect and booms out,
"I am Joseph Snow, pastor of Saint Mary's church
for the last 43 years."

Saint Peter consults his list. Then he says to the minister,
"Take this cotton robe and wooden staff and enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

"Just a minute," says the minister quite upset.
"That man was just a taxi driver and he
gets a silken robe and golden staff. How can this be?"

"Easy"says Saint Peter. "Up here, we work by results" .
"While you preached, people slept; while he drove, people prayed."
:angel:

[shaun]

Hmmmm......     interesting Mike.

[David E]

Michael L Maines

I have no right, or inclination to ever visit this topic...that you all know.

From a sense of loss, pain, anger and confusion will somebody explain to me why it is determined that MLM should pay the ultimate price over and above the vast number of no-hopers, addicts and worthless scum who freely and without mind, remove such a decent Man from our World.

If anybody wants to reply..."it is the Will of God"...please dont bother.

Who was "looking after" such a Man and allowed him to come to such harm ? Who was not, is the more relevant point.

Who can choose to leave a greiving family, who never did anyone harm and who could not possibly deserve such pain in their life.?

Who can tell me why such an all powerful Deity as you postulate did not stop that bullet...because I surely know that such a Man did not deserve to get hit.

Who can tell me why a Man, pursuing only the safety and sercurity of all his fellow citizens did not have the ultimate protection.

What therefore is the price of honour and justice...violent death ?? and a lifetime of regret and anguish for the innocents he left behind ?

Written in considerable pain.

David A. Evans

[Irishman]

David, as someone who doesn't have any religious beliefs I can understand exactly where you are coming from.
Every life is so precious, I wish I could believe a good man like him was going to a "better place", but I don't and that makes it harder to accept his passing. I'm genuinely upset over it.

[Buzz]

David, I am at a loss to explain away anyone’s pain and suffering.  Give me a second to give my credentials and then I will give my answer.  I am the son of a minister, as well as my grandfather.  I grew up in and around the bible my whole life.  I am a father.  I lost my 28-year-old son in a terrible accident a few years back.  I am a Registered Nurse working in a Hospice unit that sees, 8 to 10 people die every week.  

The best answer I can give is from a psychiatrist friend that gave me some advice many years ago.
He said:  All human beings are born with a basic human value of 1.  Regardless of wealth, education, fame, or any other of life’s wonders, each of us has the same value.  Does the rich man on the hill have a greater need for air than a prostitute on the street?  

Remember a few years ago, there was a song “Life’s a Dance”.  Well I have that as my core belief and soft blanket in the night when the demons seem to call.  

Why was Mike taken and the killer will have many years of their life left?  I don’t know, but I believe that we cannot sit in judgment of one another and collectively say who has the right to live and who should be put to death.  This has been tried in different times and the results have been horrific.  

I watch young people die of cancer every week and have no answers to this question when their parents ask.  I have no answer for myself when I ask why my son was taken and I would have gladly forfeited my life for his if given the chance.  David, there is no answer that anyone has put forth that makes sense.  I used to think that at life’s end we would have the answers, but as the end nears, I do not think even in death will any of us ever be able to truly answer your question.  

Buzz

[Irishman]

I saw a movie last weekend - "The invention of  lying", it is a comedy but the whole religion thing was very well done in my opinion.
It probably would offend people with strong  Christian beliefs but it certainly struck a chord with me.
Its times like these when I think about when the main characters mother is passing what he says to her..

[shaun]

David E,

I do understand how you feel.  I feel something near the same pain as you. I can't say the same because we have had different experiences in life.  It seems I have been asking God why a lot lately about various issues in my life but I know He is still God.

What you are asking to answer correctly would take volumes of writing but I wont do that here.

I was having a discussion with a friend just this morning about this very subject.  When people tell you "it is the will of God," unfortunately they are speaking, for the lack of a better word, crap.  They are trying to be spiritual when they themselves don't even know.  I have heard that excuse all of my life.

The will of God is that all man would be saved; that's all, nothing more nothing less.  What determines whether the will of God is done is man.  He either submits to the will of God or he does not.  Again, nothing more and nothing less.  One of the most beautiful things but at the same time the most frustrating thing is the God give all man free will.  We have free will to believe in or not believe in God. He give us free will to follow or not follow Him. He give us the opportunity to live right or live wrong. But when we have free will we also get with it all of the evil and bad things that go with it.  Since it is our choice our personalities can range from a totally good person to a totally evil person and every possible combination in between those two dynamics.

Don't worry David I am getting to it.  Since God gave us free will unfortunately we get many bad things with it. Sickness, wickedness, and death.  These are not words of comfort in a time like this but as they say; "it is what it is."  Because of these dynamics in life bad things can happen to good people.  It only becomes an issue when this happens.  If the rolls were reversed people would not be nearly as upset as they are right now.

Mike was one of the best when it came to good people.  The one thing I do know was that he believed in God.  That changes perspective when looking at these issues.  But can I explain it?  Not really. All I can say is that it hurts, I'll miss him, but I will see him again.  Some day when life is over for me I will have a better understanding of it.  I can live with that.

This is not an issue of what God did or did not do but and issue that we live in a cruel and evil world and how we respond to these tragedies is what makes the difference.  This may not answer your question in a manner that you would like but David, I would never BS you. This is simply my understanding of these issues.

Hope it helps.  If not PM me and we can talk more.

Shaun

[Martin]

An interesting perspective Shaun.  Personally, I appreciate that you didn't put out the "Will of God" line.  What you wrote was well thought out.  I know you were not directing your post towards me, but I appreciate when someone can honestly answer something with I don't know...or as you put it:

But can I explain it? Not really

This is a strange time for our forum...I never considered that we would ever face the loss of a member...and personally, I am at a loss as to what to do about it.  I realize, there is nothing I can do about it.

[Vince G]

This is a question without an answer. Since the dawn of time this question "Why" had been bounced around. For many years now I have not feared death. Not that I want to die but I know when your number is up? That's it.

[David E]

Shaun and Buzz

I am sure you (and Vince) understood that my "why" question was rhetorical....whatever creed we follow, never can we know that particular answer.

Irish has similar question marks in his head too !

My post was made without much thought for the "grand scheme of things"...more from the sheer pain of being a witness (albeit at long distance removed) to such mindless, pointless waste of a good Man.

And to Vince....I dont know much about death...i've never done it....but it is not something I particularly fear or otherwise. Maybe you are right...when it is "written" our time will come. But that does not lessen the futility of a death like Mikes'

I thank you for your honest replies, you solved no problems and none of us have any answers...but it helps in the grieving to simply talk about it with people who know the scenario...and whom I respect.

DavidE

[Vince G]

Surely Mike was one of the guys we knew here. I survive on facts. What do we really know about him? No info anywhere of a shooting like his. Hospitals don't have a record of his admittance, I called. No Police report filed. Was that his real name? His name isn't in any paper or obituaries or even close to his age and looks. His name is not recorded anywhere on/in a business. There should be something? That's the Facts.

[Rhonald]

Two glasses of wine and some shedded tears. Untill the morning comes I will mourn his passing shadow. His profile picture(of Geronimo)  will now forever haunt my imagination. When he wrote I felt strength and wisdom from his words. He also acted upon what he believed. A warrior in spirit and in deeds - he was homeland security.

Maybe, if there is a God, he will not answer why, but at the very least, we were graced by Mike's presence. He was a gift for us and with the pain of his passing our only answer can be that he made a difference.

[shaun]

Ron,

God's only response would be to Mike and it would be, "Welcome home."  I totally agree with your last sentence and yes he was a gift to all he met. The story rabbit shared with us I think was the epitome of who he was.

David E,

I really didn't think that your questions needed answering as much as I needed to say what I said, so all is good.

Shaun

[Irishman]

Thats very good thanks Mike.

[Irishman]

Why does a good man, that never harmed anyone, that brought up a family with four kids and never said an angry word to any of them....get struck down with a painful drawn out disease?

I try to reconcile this with my firm every cloud has a silver lining belief.  Only thing i can see here is that its focuses the heck out of his children to achieve some milestones that would make him happy and proud of us..then again isn't pride a sin?

I saw - The Invention of Lying recently and it plays heavily on my mind.
I dunno how it would play with some here but it stuck home to me. You'll know what I mean if you saw it and the premise where it all starts from.