Author Topic: Religion Thread  (Read 87903 times)

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Offline David E

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #345 on: January 14, 2012, 05:00:35 am »
AHA Philip !!!

I have seen the light  ;D ;D ;D

Many thanks......

Offline David E

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #346 on: January 14, 2012, 05:13:03 am »
Dems de facts.

Chinese Whispers...works every time....

Offline shaun

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #347 on: January 14, 2012, 07:40:21 am »
I must be losing my mind because I could swear that funky said that a person can go to hell and then change and go to heaven.  (Not the exact words.) I don't see it in his post now.

I will say this to you funky.  I don't doubt that you have had unique experiences that helps support your belief in God and Jesus.  I have mine too.  I don't really use mine as an evangelistic tool simply because they are to difficult to prove.  People get hung up on those points.  Then you have idiots like Mike Warnke who preach all over the world only to be easily discredited causing many to disbelieve.  I would much rather use the truth in the bible. 

Hahaha on me.  All this time David I thought you were a lawyer.  When I asked you to prove it I was thinking as in a courtroom.  At a later date I will provide some evidences to support Christianity.

This will be kind of an update at this point.  Two years ago I packed away into storage most all of my theological library along with many other things that was causing me great pain at the time.  I was angry with God over many things but primarily for the divorce I went through.  I owned a furniture store and it went bankrupt.  So I have been one angry man for a while.

I'm past a lot of that now thanks to the prayer of others, time and the wonderful understanding Chinese woman.  How she has put up with me sometimes is amazing.  I ought to marry that girl.  ;D  About 4 months ago I got pretty sick of myself and my attitude and began praying and reading my bible again.  I also began going back to church.  I am still walking through a lot of crap due mostly by the loss of a business.

That said David, as soon as I find and unpack my library I will present some rock solid evidence.

Willy, the age of man thing is, in my mind, very simple.  God formed time in the beginning.  Light-Dark; Day-Night; first day; second day; seasons-growing and harvest.  It is all there.  It doesn't really take much for me to realize that a year was a year.  I would think that the second time I was hotter than I cared to be followed by freezing my backside off that I had come full circle.  That was the only the people had to measure time with.  And we all know mans propensity to want to measure things.

Adam was 130 years old when had his son Seth and Adam lived to be 930.  Seth was 105 when he had Enosh and Seth lived to be 912.  Interesting thing is that all of the way up to Noah man lived almost 1000 years.  After the flood life became shorter and short and my the time they got to Moses 120 years old was the maximum lifespan.  Many experts thing there were severe environmental changes after the flood that brought the shortened lifespan on.

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #348 on: January 14, 2012, 09:43:59 am »
Funky, Please reread my post of when the bible was written. I said the King James Bible was written 500 years ago. Not that it was translated to english. That is someone's poor excuse. I will review the story so I can be more actuate in dates and names (name of the pocket bible people were smuggling, little book?) that was in english. King James decided to print his own modern version. Thus lies the problem. Being translated from old languages, edited to fit new beliefs. I am putting a link to a Timeline page of the bible. Though they do not touch on the re-editing issue it does show King James bible was not the 1st english translation.

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/#timeline




I know very well the story of the Dead Sea Scrolls. How they got there, who wrote them, when, and what was written. This is proof of how edited and changed the modern  bible is. Oh and by the way Moses did see the promised land he just never stepped foot in it. This will trail off to a whole other subject that has been proven by the digs in Israel and finding timelines of the settlements there. Look into it and be surprised.


Essienes, who were wiped out by Roman soldiers? Not entirely true. Yes there was a hold off by the Romans but the remaining Jews committed suicide by leaping off the cliffs not that the Romans killed them.


PLEASE don't assume that I never read, studied or know the Bible or never stepped foot in many different religious churches and Temples, I have.
 
You spun off into historical ramblings on the question for proof. The question was not directed of the bible or God but proof of your own words "Lake of fire, you were there".

Offline shaun

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #349 on: January 14, 2012, 11:00:12 am »
OK Vince you got me on 1 point.  "He never saw it."  I meant it in the sense that he never saw it come to pass.  Of course God took Moses to see it from Mount Nebo but God also told him that he would never live there.

But then again you are mixing two stories in your post.  Essenes lived in every community but the group of Essenes of the Dead Sea Scrolls fame lived in Qumran several miles north of Masada where Sicarri Jewish community of 960 people committed mass suicide rather than be overrun by Roman Soldiers not the Essenes.

There is a theory that this never happened because there isn't a large mass of bones around Masada to prove it.  Two possible explanations.  1.  The Roman removed the bodies, something they were known to do, to keep the Jews from making this a holy site.   2. The Jewish families of the dead removed the bodies for a proper burial in Jerusalem.

Oooo this is fun.  I haven't exercised this area of my brain in some time.

Phillip I love your flow chart.

Vince G

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #350 on: January 14, 2012, 11:29:02 am »
ah yes Masada. I knew that just couldn't remember the name and wanted to finish up the post, so let it slide.

This I was going to put in the last post after I posted but here it is (again) just to make a point. Whether there is a god or not is not my intension to prove. It's more of religion I have a problem with. Being lead by religious leaders that are not anything more then mortal mostly men telling me how to live my life when themselves are dipping into distrustful lives and actions.

I'll lead my own life. Those that are followers can continue being lead by others just leave me out of it. Don't knock on my door asking me to join a church and bring my money with me? (weekly event). and don't pee on my leg and tell it's raining. Be what you want to be just keep it to yourself. I'm not one that is weak and will just follow where told.

Offline Rhonald

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #351 on: January 14, 2012, 11:29:52 am »

Phillip I love your flow chart.

Well, if I GO WITH THE FLOW

I will be wearing some florescent underwear to feel MORE like a MAN  :o

But once older when the FLOW don't flow to good, it will hurt more that only a man knows.  :-[
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 11:31:58 am by Rhonald »
Life....It's all about finding the Chicks and Balances

Offline David E

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #352 on: January 14, 2012, 05:18:16 pm »
Hard to know where to start here...too many contradictions to keep them all in my head !!

Firstly Shaun, I also did a Law degree and practiced Law for many years...not any more though.

BTW Massada did happen, they have done a major archeological investigation of the site and found the remains of the massive ramp built by the Romans to get their seige engines close enough to batter this "impregnable" fortress. It is not conclusively proved that the remaining Jews suicided, but it is likely, and there were no survivors.

Shaun, I know full well that you will find masses of historical evidence to supprt Christianity....the worship of Christ by believers is not an issue with me, or disputed. But I fear that you cannot find any definitive proof that Jesus was anything other than a local religious zealot who gathered a following..as many did at that time of history. Priests and such were the real power group back then...if you wanted to get ahead..be a Priest. Nowadays..be a Politician !!

Yes...time was formed (created as part of space-time) at the point of the "big bang" before that nothing..period...existed.So far it is proven that at about 30 millionths of a second after the big bang, the total universe was the size of a basketball and filled with only energy...Higgs/Boson field. The universe has since that time undergone many transformations as it cools towards absolute Zero, when it gets there it ceases to exist...again. Predicted this is about 70 billion years hence...but science claims no proof of that end-game, but has all the proofs necessary for the point to the now time.

How can you say with definition that these characters of yours lived to 1000 years old or so. Nothing in the archeological record, proved by Carbon Dating and many other methods has ever been seem to live anything like this long...and I am going back 3 billion years here, back to pre-Cambrian life forms. There is not one shred of evidence, in the fossil record or more recently (1 million years or so) that living organisms had anything but a SHORTER life than they have today...it is Entropy at work...a force that is inevitable over time.

The steady and sure evolution of the Universe, the creation of matter from energy...(thanks Mr Einstein for explaining all that) and the gradual evolution over time of living organisms and finally us is just the maifestations of how the Universe behaves...It just does and it just is..it is remarkable, beautiful and profound. It needs no human or religious connotation to do it...it just is. Having said "finally us" I dont mean to say thet we are the end of evolution, we will continue to evolve into something else...no, I have no idea what that will be...but it will happen.

If you want to see true, pure, rational religion at work go and read Desiderata...or better yet...read "The Self-aware Universe by Amit Goswami, or The Fabric of the Cosmos by Brian Greene"

Finally, lets examine the claim that "somebody knows somebody who is supposed to be able to mathematically prove that God exists"........Maths 101...to prove a zero sum model (black or white) is easy...1+1 = 2. and so on. To prove a dynamic end model is more difficult, there are more accurate answers...ie quadratic equations where there are 2 solutions. To prove anything where there are many solutions is impossible, you can only demonstrate the PROBABILITY of a solution...ie I cannot prove that Willy will or will not win the Lottery, neither can I prove or disprove that Shaun will live to 1000 years old.

In probability terms I can define the odds against Willy or Shaun pretty closely...but it may not be the right answer.

Leading on from this, to prove the existence of "God...a conceptual, or God....an actual " defies any mathematical process I have ever heard of. It would be the same as asking for proof that the colour red is happy !!!!! or to prove that a goldfish appreciates Mozart....Of course, I can manipulate numbers to tell me anything...but that is not proof.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 05:34:01 pm by David E »

Offline funkymusician

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #353 on: January 14, 2012, 07:27:10 pm »
Thanks to Shaun, David and Vince G for your replies.
 
Could someone tell me if there is a way I could save my work when I'm posting? I have accidentally wiped out my replies twice, and that was when I was nearly done.

 Thanks again to Shaun and Arnold for promising to pray for John1964 when he nearly gave up on his girl. I read somewhere if a Christian says he is going to pray for someone, it carries import,  even if they don't actually follow through. So I wasn't particularly surprised when his problem was resolved a few days or is it  hours later, and now they are happily married.  That's one of the ways Christians help this world, through prayer. (ye are the light of this world, Jesus says)

  I just want someone out there to know if they got into any serious trouble where money, science or people can't help, Jesus is always there to help. I remember when I got into serious trouble that night more than 30 years ago, His was the only name I called, and He came and saved me, and gave me a new lease on life. Though I more or less used to make fun of the Baptist preachers, guess what,  their message got through. I can't go into all the details about what happened much, unfortunately; not that it is going to help any.

 Vince and David. I can't prove it scientifically or otherwise, but I am glad you mentioned Faith, David. Faith works with believing. "He came into His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that BELIEVED on His name" ( John 1;10) iF ONLY PEOPLE KNEW HOW GOOD GOD IS!

 I appreciate you all being here. I have unspoken requests. Please pray for me all ye who BELIEVE. Thanks!

Offline David E

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #354 on: January 14, 2012, 09:07:23 pm »
Thanks again to Shaun and Arnold for promising to pray for John1964 when he nearly gave up on his girl. I read somewhere if a Christian says he is going to pray for someone, it carries import,  even if they don't actually follow through. So I wasn't particularly surprised when his problem was resolved a few days or is it  hours later, and now they are happily married.  That's one of the ways Christians help this world, through prayer. (ye are the light of this world, Jesus says)
 

I just knew I should never come to this part of the Forum...but I guess I cant resist it...good for the pshyche I think ?????

Now let me get this straight in my head...the resolution of John 1964's problem was entirely due to the few Christians here who prayed for him and all those others who said they would pray...but didn't.......is that a correct interpretation of your words ??

If so, all the wishes, advice, help and support given to him at the time by many, many non-believers both from within this Forum and also from his own friends and family was a crock of crap...is that right.

To follow that analogy, if nobody prayed for him, or nobody even THOUGHT of praying for him, than every other bit of support he got was worthless and would not have helped him......

If in the normal course of life's events, if you said you were going to do something...then you better get on and do it...how possibly can it be worthy to claim supernatural powers from prayer if it was only hollow words and never got followed through...I ask you...do you honestly expect me to believe that. People who make promises and dont do it are regarded as something sinister in my World.

I think I will skulk back to my own World now....this could all give me a heart attack

Vince G

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #355 on: January 14, 2012, 11:36:12 pm »
Wait wait wait one more thing before I make my hopefully last comment here. This line "Christians help this world, through prayer. (ye are the light of this world, Jesus says)" are you telling us that Jesus meant this about Christians?

Changed my mind, Not worth even another comment. I can see the falseness in his story. 
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 01:02:26 am by maxx »

Offline john1964

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #356 on: January 15, 2012, 06:35:37 am »
 ???

Offline David E

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #357 on: January 15, 2012, 06:47:25 am »

Offline shaun

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #358 on: January 15, 2012, 07:37:12 am »
David you mention contradictions and I am not sure what you are talking about.  Are you saying that I contradict myself?  Do I contradict what most Christians believe?  Or do I contradict your belief?

I've been fortunate enough to stand atop Masada, Qumran, Ein Gedi, and in the Dead Sea twice in my life (belch to the Dead Sea).  I've have had the pleasure to be a part of some of the archaeological digs in Israel as a geophysicist.  The amazing thing to me about the ramp at Masada is that it was never completed which is one of  the evidences used for the suicide theory.

I don't have all of my books back in my house yes but I do have one.  It is the complete works of Flavius Josephus or simply Josephus.  In case you don't know who he is; he is a Jewish historian who lived at the same time Jesus did.  To the best of our knowledge Josephus was not a follower of Jesus; just a well respected historian and contemporary to Jesus.  Here is what he wrote about Jesus;

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it is lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure.  He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ.  And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.  And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."

The 1000 year old thing always twists people up a little.  When you look at this idea and you believe evolution to be true then it is impossible to believe but the key factor is in believing in evolution.  Now I know that I have placed myself with many of the spiritual wackos that are out there but, I have not seen one shred of actual evidence that evolution is a true science.  From a scientific standpoint then it is not true.  Science is based off of fact and evidence, you said it yourself.  There has not been one fossil found that shows the evolutionary process of a species.

We do find however that there is a harmony of biblical history and scientific fact.  At one time the earth was completely covered with water.  The reason I mention the Christian flood theory is because it is a key factor in understanding the length of human life.

Humor me a little.  Man was created by God in a perfect environment for health, wealth and longevity.  (Even science will tell you that the human body was designed or created for a much longer lifespan.)  Mankind was banished from the garden and lived in a less than perfect environment. Some 2000 years later when Noah was born  mankind had become so corrupt that Noah was the only one left that was righteous man.  So God wiped out the the world saving Noah and his family.  After the flood human life became shorter and shorter until we come to Moses who lived 120 years and almost 90% reduction in human life.

Now I know you think this is nothing more than a fairy tale but what is one of the main carriers of disease?  Water.

Second for some reason we like to think of the people as living in dog years.  As I mentioned before time was established in the beginning.  Math was more than likely the second thing so even if they counted every season change as a new year they would have lived to 250.

After counting came greed.  I get two you get one.

I for one enjoy talking with David and Vince about these things.  I think it is a good thing to have a healthy debate and then walk away still respecting each other.  :o  You will still respect me in the morning won't you?  ;D

Thanks for mentioning The Self-aware Universe and The Fabric of the Cosmos.  I have read excerpts from them but not the whole book.  They are on my to do list..   One of these days...  ::)

Keep posting guys.

Offline Willy The Londoner

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Re: Religion Thread
« Reply #359 on: January 15, 2012, 08:53:26 am »

Willy, I could tell from here that blind girl could see. Besides the color thing? (ha) If she was blind and could see they would have to gradually bring light to her eyes (could take days) so the eyes can adjust. If the eyes are exposed to bright sunlight from complete darkness? It can cause blindness…. so that's a catch 22



That right Vince.  This same man has a 'Nurse' - who justs happens to be is wife who can place her hand on a womens stomach feel around and announce that the woman's ovarian cancer she was was gone! 

The same man is under investigation for other illegal acts as well.

As Scottish Robbie is aware I am against all Charlatans who prey on peoples beliefs whatever their calling.

I was in Nigerian at the same time as Benny Hinn was there crying over losing 2 million dollars on a crusade in that country that he though would net millions more.  Please feel sorry for the man whose take is over 100 million dollars a year.

Willy
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Now in my 12th year living here,