Sex issues

[Hans]

I wasn’t expecting a sex liberal, dancing on the tables and showing her breasts. But I did not expect celibacy either. Yes, I have some sex issues with my lady.

First of all my lady is very inexperienced. That is not necessarily a problem, it takes time to know another person physically and even though her inexperience was very evident and a bit annoying at times when we first met, it only tought me to be patient and take things slowly. And during the limited time we had, I thought things improved.

My lady is traditional but she’s very calm and easy to discuss things with so I thought I’d challenge fate and bring up the sex issue once more, now I thought we could discuss more freely since there was no interpreter like it was the first time almost a year ago. In an email containing all kinds of topics I added that I hoped she did not feel embarrassed to talk about our sexlife. She replied that sex is very healthy and natural but that we can discuss more after we’ve married.

That didn’t sound good. I thought that maybe it was intercourse before marriage in particular that was her moral hang up so I wrote back and told her, among other things, that there are other ways of having sex than just intercourse, discussing on a more general level the importance of compromises in a relationship...

I thought I had crossed the line, being up front like that. But we had a QQ chat and she reassured me it was OK. I was relieved and didn’t think too much about what she actually wrote in her email afterwards. Reading what she actually wrote once again I can see that she really didn’t write anything of value. All she said was that we’re from different cultures and that’s OK, we can discuss details in the future. So either she, in a Chinese manner, deliberately avoids confrontation by not saying yes or no hoping I won't ask her again OR she just feel too embarrassed to say anything of value on the matter and just needs time.

I guess most of you are thinking "well, you should have thought about this earlier!" but I have and we did discuss it early on after we made contact on Chnlove almost a year ago. We both agreed that coming from two different cultures we must be open to and discuss things to avoid misunderstandings and to reach compromises together. I thought I received signals that verified her eagerness to do so when we met in China before. Still, right now I feel puzzled.

In your own experience with Chinese women, is this all an act to show they’re self respecting women who believes in high morale or is sex before marriage such an inconceivable thing for a traditional lady? In a relationship the two must feel both physically and emotionally desired. I’m not sure about the physical part here. Hugs and kisses are not enough for me.

I think I may have a bright future with this woman. But there is not only future, there is also here and now. We can not marry until the summer of 2011. If she does not yield an inch it would mean no sex for me for another year and that we have no idea if we’re sexually compatible before our wedding day. I can say for sure that celibacy was NOT one of my primary goals going into a new relationship. Thus, if things doesn't change for the better I may have two options:

1) Go on with the relationship and have sex behind her back until we finally marry.
2) End the relationship due to severe disagreements on the intimacy department.

No 1 is not me. I would feel terrible to lie to her now after we’ve met in real life and been together for some time in China. I do care a lot for her but I need more than hugs and kisses. I am bound to see her again in June so nothing drastic will happen until then at least. As usual I'm writing things from what I'm feeling here and now. But since this is the board of wisdom, I would really appreciate to hear your opinions on how to approach this, guys. :-)

[ttwjr32]

i personally would go there in June as you have planned and when you two are
together then pursue discussing your thoughts and concerns together face to face.
i would not give up until you have met again and can discuss this together in person.
as far as your other question it seems that each chinese lady is different. over the years
i have met a large variety of ladies with different thoughts and concerns on this with regard
to their traditional values. just see how it goes in June and proceed from there

[Willy The Londoner]

Hans,  That is quite a predicament that you are going through.  Is there any special reason why you cannot marry for more than another year?

Are you saying she is very inexperienced or she has had no experience of sexual intercourse at all?

If it is the latter then I can understand her position.   She does not have to have specific religious convictions to stay a virgin until she marries.  What if you had sex and then you decide that you are not sexually compatible.  You leave her?  What does sexual compatibilty mean.  Is it that you get everything in ways that you have in the past?  

When you marry you learn together.   If there are things she does not like to do then it is her choice.  I really admire her if she does resist all efforts to have a full sexual relationship before marriage.

Just say if you do decide that sexually you are 'not compatible' . You part from her.   Then her fear is that she goes off to marry another man and he finds that she has had previous experience.  She can soon  find she is dumped again.

I think you have four options rather than 2.

1) Go on with the ralationship and have sex behind her back and risk her wrath if and when she discovers this.
2) End the relationship now because you are unlikely to get your end away with her before marriage.
3) Find a way to marry her before a year or more goes by.
4) Respect her wishes and appreciate the fact that she will come to you unimpeached and she will not have had any previous suitor to compare you with.   That is a prize higher than all others.

My own experience with Chinese Woman is that they really like the physical side of a relationship.   They have no qualms about telling you what the like and do not like.

Willy

[metooap]

I wasn’t expecting a sex liberal, dancing on the tables and showing her breasts. But I did not expect celibacy either. Yes, I have some sex issues with my lady.

, I would really appreciate to hear your opinions on how to approach this, guys. :-)

Hans

In my opinion - and remember this is my opinion - I am not Dr What's her name - who claims to be an expert on all matters about sex - your lady said exactly what she should say - "we can discuss more after we’ve married."

What else do you want her to say?

It has been said that we in the West are often times more direct. For example, in the beginning of a relationship, you might directly ask your lady "Do you love me?' And you are expecting a direct answer.

But her answer will be something like, "You must first ask the moon, the moon will tell you." In other words, you are not going to get a direct reply - because that is the culture - this is the way.

The answer your lady has given - is exactly the one you should get!

Now once you get over the initial stages of things, and the person understands - your intentions are honorable - they match hers - that is marriage, then and only then will you get direct answers about topics that are deemed to be sensitive. Even then, it is on you to be sophisticated enough to broach the subject. Otherwise, you will find yourself, often - and I do mean often - talking to the moon!

Going through a translator in my opinion is definitely not good. Emails - in my opinion - or only okay to clarify something discussed - face to face on QQ and or Skype. They are not good to start off the subject or to get any sort of details about this subject.

If you have something to discuss about this subject, to me I am doing this face to face, and I am only talking about this once I know the person understands my intentions and my intentions truly match hers.

If you have met this person faced to face - maybe this is when it is best to talk about the subject. Not afterwards when you are both thousand miles away.

Maybe the best input I can pass on is - first fully discuss and make sure you are on the same accord about "Marriage." About engagement, about family, about life after marriage - these are all topics that should be discussed throughly and in-dept - first. If you have not done this, then perhaps you need to "Ask the moon" about when your stint with celibacy will be over!" Because - if this is the case, only the moon will know. :icon_biggrin:

Alton

[Hans]

Thanks for your input, guys. I can add the following:

We have discussed engagement, marriage, children, well every aspect of life together in the future. For months and months. It's not like I'm hitting her with the sex part first thing. We have discussed sex two times, at the beginning (when I wanted to check her attitude before moving on together with her) and now. We did not discuss sex when we met, we had little time together and I think we both felt we wanted to get to know each other step by step at that point. And we only shared a bed one night, which was the night before my departure early in the morning.

Yes, we can't marry until next year and I think we both want to marry in the summer. I need to save money (I'm still a student, I graduate in January next year) for the wedding and we're not even engaged yet. The plan is that I go see her in June and she'll visit me for Christmas. We've talked from time to time about our future wedding and the engagement preceding it but either she doesn't want to discuss dates right now or she's waiting for me to decide everything for her. I don't know.

Willy, what I mean with "sexually compatible" is: do we like it together? Can we fulfill each other's needs? I have needs and she has needs (I hope). I've had women who are only interested in themselves when having sex, unwilling to do anything for their partner. I would not want to be married to such a woman. I want mutual understanding in bed as well. Therefore I would like to find this out before getting married. And yes, I believe she's a virgin. Which is why I can understand it is a big thing for her, but still we need to reach some kind of compromise.

I'll see her in June, that was a trip I was going to make whether I'd met my lady or not so everything's settled. I'd just adjust it in order to be more with her.

[David E]

Hans

You've got the best of all Worlds.........

If your Lady has zero experience, then you will never get to know about sexual compatibility beforehand...she has no reference or framework against which to compare, debate or discuss.

YOU will be her only teacher, her only lover...WOW...an open book for you to write the subsequent pages !!...lucky you.

How can you expect her to have a meanigful discussion about actual sexuality..she will only have a view from her external references...friends, family, internet, Ladies Magazines etc, etc, etc.

It is the same issue that most newly-weds faced before our new age of sexual freedom and "enlightenment"....and they got through it Ok.

And what exactly is sexual compatibiity ??...presumably you both have the right equipment, you both are in love...therefore you both have a wonderful adventure to share together.

I can tell you from my very advanced age that what ever is the result of your sex life with her...it is mostly down to how you handle it, how gentle, compassionate and understanding you are to her needs and how much skill you have in this department !!!

If you keep this in mind...she will respond to you in ways that will astound you..based on trust, love and the giving and receiving pleasure...together.

If you want a free trial or a guarantee beforehand...she may not wish to go there, because so far, she has apparently resisted the temptation for casual sex...I am sure many opportunities have come her way so far. That she has not done so is good for her...its her choice as a woman.

I cant think of a worse solution than to keep having casual sex without her knowlege...you WILL get caught out !!!

And to ditch her because you have no guarantee that she is a kitten in the kitchen and a tiger in the bedroom, seems to me to be a waste of a good woman...and a particularly shallow act on your part.

David

[Voiceroveip]

Hans,

I don't like what I've read, I'm sorry to say. You're 28 or so says your profile, so I presume she is in her early 20s? Chances are she has no experience and doesn't want any before marriage if she is a bit traditional which is not uncommon in China, even nowadays. If you don't know, ask her if she has any experience in that department, I think she will tell you.

You say you haven't discussed dates of anything yet, there are some posts on the forum about male leadership in these mixed relationships, maybe that is the problem. I think you should take the lead and firm things up. That she is willing to wait another year to get married is quite exceptional, especially when all the detail is still in the air...

Search your feelings and see what is most important for you, if the small probability of an unsatisfactory physical relationship is a showstopper for you, then I don't think you two are a good match, actually I don't think that you're a good catch for her, especially if you can't handle the prospect of one year without getting some.

Frank

[Hans]

First of all I'd like to thank you for your input, I appreciate all your advice!

Second, I find it a bit interesting that some of you seem to describe this as a matter of my understanding of her needs and not her understanding of mine, of me being a bad catch for her and not the other way around. In my world, it is about mutual understanding. In a healthy relationship it goes both ways. And I've never asked for a "kitten in the kitchen and a tiger in the bedroom". But what I do want is to feel physically desired as a man. Is that so selfish? We wouldn't regard it as selfish if a woman said she wanted to feel physically desired as a woman, would we? Then it would be all about her needs and as men we should show our understanding and try to fulfill those needs, whatever they may be.

Of course I could have casual sex without her finding out just as she could have sex without me finding out. We're living in different countries, in different parts of the world. There's no way of walking in on anybody here. But I'm not going to. I'm not a cheater. I end one relationship before I start the next one and I always will.

About the marriage and engagement plans, we've talked about it. Or I've talked about it, rather. I've made suggestions on where and when we could get engaged but she's not given me any clear answer on what she really wants. Which I find a bit frustrating. We've talked a lot about that we both want to make decisions together, which is why I have not felt comfortable with just deciding things over her head only to make things happen. An engagement is not like deciding the time for dinner.

[David5o]

Hans,

Being a young woman in China, and you being a westerner, i think it is more likely she is just protecting herself from being used. She has probably heard of all the horror stories from those that know nothing about westerners but are very good at assumptions, of western men using Chinese ladies for sex!!  

I have a strong suspicion that once you have finalised your engagement, things will be very different. At the moment, she is not seeing a solid commitment from you, your talking about it, but nothing is arranged!!!  I know what your saying about ''Mutual'' in your posts, but things are just a little different in Asia and especially in China. You will get all the mutual stuff Once ''You'' decide when you both will be engaged, ...maybe more than you bargained for ...lol!!!

Hans the Chinese ladies are the same as any other ladies in this world, they have the same wants, needs, and desires. Yes, ...some maybe a little more traditional than others, but nothing is ever set in stone. Sex is no longer a taboo subject in China, that has long since past.

Your Young lady joined a marriage agency to get married, and that is the main object in her mind right now. What she is seeing, is that you have told her, No Marriage for at least another year, and from what you say ...she has excepted this. Now you want to talk about Sex, and experiencing sex while still being completly Single. (...I hope you can see where i'm going with this Hans) All she needs is a solid commitment from you, in the form of a confirmed engagement date. Most if not all her fears will then fade away. It's obvious she wants you, to have already accepted that long wait for you being able to marry her, .... but she just needs that commitment from you, to let herself be open and show her commitment towards YOU!! ....

David......

[Hans]

Thank you for your wise thoughts, David. I agree with you on the engagement part, you may be completely right here. I've decided not to talk about sex before we're engaged. I'll bring up the engagement subject again soon. It's just that I have not felt that she wnats me to make the decisions for her, therefore I'm afraid she'll feel bad if I suddenly tell her "Hey, I've set the date for our engagement!" I did ask her when we met in China and she gave me the impression that she wanted to wait and not say when or where we should get engaged.

About her possible prejudice on Western men and sex I would hope that our night together in the same bed (with our clothes ON) would have persuaded her that I'm not interested in her just for sex. There are after all easier ways if we want to have sex with Asian women...

About sex and taboo, it depends what you mean with taboo. After all the government is strongly fighting anything they regard as immoral on the Internet, the "Love Land" erotic theme park was closed down before it could open for the public and the government is now trying to filter all text messages containing "immoral" words. I would not say that sex is not taboo...:-/

[David5o]

Hans,

The taboo thing, ....That's the government for you, i was talking about the real world women of China!!
Perhaps that's why the government are taking such measures, because of the modern attitudes among it's population these days...

Hans, over the years i lived/worked in China, i have known countless western single guys (colleagues) of your age group that have had relationships with young Chinese ladies. None were celibate relationships. As the years went on, it became more and more common too, oh, and i'm not talking about the easy women of the street, just normal everyday ladies... Quite a few married these ladies too.... So as i said, it's not a taboo thing it's now quite normal, just that it's never in public and never flaunted about for others to see .... all ''behind closed doors''  hahaha!!!

As for the prejudice about western men, This is very common in China, family and friends will often try and dissuade these ladies from finding western husbands , and make-up all sorts stories to defend there case. I don't know about your personal experiences about you both sleeping with your clothes on, or what she may or may not of thought about it....

David.....

[rockycoon]

Han's, first you are a lucky guy to get a virgin.  There are so few around now days, specially here in the states.  I know what she is
waiting for and that is comitment like engagement or marrage.  First get engaged before you think of sex at all.
Meet the mom and pop and be sincere, propose to her and get everyones ok on the marrage, then and only then you can
discuss sex.  Don't rush it or you'll scare her off.  You are going to be her only man, and she will know only you.  what a wonderful
thing to look forward to...

Your a lucky guy...:exclamation:

[chen yan]

As for the prejudice about western men, This is very common in China, family and friends will often try and dissuade these ladies from finding
David.....

David,This is the truth I experienced.

[Hans]

David5o, I understand your point. But it doesn't help much since my lady is not among those young Chinese ladies you're mentioning... As for the prejudice about the Western men, I'm sure it exists. I actually wasn't expecting to be greeted with open arms like I was. All I saw was curiosity. But I suppose they have/had tons of ideas about me that they didn't tell me about. :dodgy:

rockycoon, I met her family on my first visit in December. They both arranged with a birthday dinner for me at a restaurant (my birthday was on the day after my arrival and that didn't go unnoticed...) and invited me for dinner in their apartment later on. Me and my lady talked about marriage privately but we both want her to visit Sweden before we move along with any wedding plans. We have not decided whether to live in China or Sweden in the future so the first important step is to get her a granted visa to Sweden. When I had returned home in January she sent me a letter saying that the family "loved" me and that her parents hoped we could get married during 2011.

Well, well. It's the cultural differences, the different perspectives that causes confusion and anxiety here. That's all.

[David5o]

.
chen yan,

Know your own mind Chen Yan, and follow your own dreams. Don't ever let others try and live your life for you, .....they will surely make a mess of it for you ...lol!!!

Yes, i came across quite a bit of this, especially aimed at the younger ladies... Those that had never been married!!

Even some of Lucy's friends and cousins were quite hostile in their prejudice towards her finding a western man (Me). Though the majority were actually happy for her...

When we were discussing this between us, it turned out that the majority of those that were most vocal in there prejudice, were the very ones that weren't in happy relationships and marriages!!! So i think there is a lot of jealousy involved, as well as any genuine concerns for the ladies welfare or well being...

We had no problems from Lucy's parents or siblings by the way.  Anyone that had seen us together would have seen that we fitted each other like a pair of well made gloves, and only a fool could not of seen how happy Lucy was, ...in us ....Being a Couple!!!''

Anyway, .... some of the things i've heard from those that have these prejudices against western/foreign husbands, are so far out of the window, you really have to laugh when you hear them. All are told as if fact, but are so obviously ''made-up'' assumptions and show little to no knowledge of any westerner!!  ....Sad Really!!


David.....