Prenuptial Agreements

[Robertt S]

The I 864 is a contract between the petitioner and the federal government, she is not a party to the contract.The 864 contract gives the government the right to sue THE PETITIONER and recoup any means tested benefits the immigrant may collect such as food stamps.She is not eligible to collect any of these benefits until she has had a greencard for 5 years.His pre nup will Not affect the I 864 in any way, he is liable for the duration of the 864 contract.

Just a thought...could he be thinking that this would be what he means when he says "or the Husband will be responsible for his support amount to WIFE under the Immigration Laws of the United States, whichever is lesser"

The 864 does Not provide any support for the immigrant, the only benefactor of the 864 is the US government as a means to recoup any means tested benefits the immigrant might receive. The 864 gives her NO support payments of any type!

[Martin]

Precisely

[Vince G]

Yes Robert I understand what the i864 does. It seemed to me that he used the wording immigration support to make himself look good on paper. I think they are saying if the government goes after him he will pay it? or something like that? Like I said I understand the 864 but I am trying to figure why they put that in the prenup?

[Robertt S]

Yes Robert I understand what the i864 does. It seemed to me that he used the wording immigration support to make himself look good on paper. I think they are saying if the government goes after him he will pay it? or something like that? Like I said I understand the 864 but I am trying to figure why they put that in the prenup?

His lawyer used that phrase for 2 reasons. 1. To imply legality to her with use of the term" immigration law". 2. He knows there is no immigration laws governing alimony, custody, and child support so the lesser amount of his pre-nup is zero since immigration laws do not cover divorces or pre-nups. I wonder if he plans to send a copy of his pre-nup in with his 129F for his fiancee visa or just tell her to keep quite about their little financial arrangement. I am pretty certain the pre-nup will draw the visa officer's attention to the level of commitment in their relationship. The funny thing is that the visa officer can deny their relationship if he thinks negatively about the pre-nup and does not have to explain his reasons to the petitioner or his lawyer, so he can effectively doom his fiancee visa while trying to protect his piggy bank.    I still think she needs to have the pre-nup translated in to her NATIVE language and then have a lawyer she selects explain the details to her so she fully understands what she will give away if she signs this document.

[Arnold]

I can only say to all this... why the Hell is he even thinking of marriage to anyone??? If he's already married to his money and obviously there isn't a whole lot of Love/Trust there.. he should just stay single and screw around as he please'.

[Robertt S]

Here is some good reading for your wife's friend before she immigrates here! http://www.uscis.gov/files/nativedocuments/M-618_c.pdf

[Robertt S]

Pineau,
  I just read an article concerning divorce and immigrants. It appears several states are now allowing the I-864 to be brought up in support proceedings now! Prior to this the immigrant had to file civil suit in federal court to seek support from the I-864, given this information I understand why his lawyer inserts the wording he did.    " the Husband will be responsible for his support amount to WIFE under the Immigration Laws of the United States, whichever is lesser"  The reason being is the I-864 requires the petitioner to provide support at 125% above poverty level based on the I-864P, using the current I-864P guidelines and their household size after marriage of 2 people, the most he will have to pay is  $ 1,576 monthly based on the I-864P, if she is awarded 100% which is unlikely.If the alimony is decided by a family court her alimony is based on his income and assets so he will come out better using the I-864 for deciding his alimony payments. This is only in effect in a few states and Florida is not one of them yet.

Here is the link to the article!  http://www.good-lawyer.com/2012/05/07/love-v-love-the-pennsylvania-superior-court-upholds-federal-immigration-law-in-spousal-support-matters/

[Willy The Londoner]

My advice is forget pre nups. My advice is always do not marry a man from North America.  Most failures, percentage wise, come from that neck of the World when they marry foreigners.  No wonder your state departments look at such marriages with a fine tooth comb.

Too easy for them to walk, or cause the woman to walk away from marriages.

How many failures or problems from this Forum alone has been to Non North Americans.  You seem to go into marriage with the 'I can get out if it does not work' attitude instead of 'I will make it work' attitude.

As David E says English law is much the same as Aussie law.

Do not think twice about marrying a foreigner think 3 times.

Willy

[Martin]

Too easy for them to walk, or cause the woman to walk away from marriages.
Willy

Interesting that you put all the blame on the men.  And then put it more on North American men.  It almost smacks of discrimination to make a comment like that.  While I am one of those that have a failed marriage, there are a lot of things that you do not know of my particular situation.  Was it easy to walk away?  No.  But I did what I had to do, based on the things I was dealing with.  I really dont think it is a fair statement to be made by you.  And for the record, I don't agree with pre-nups.

[Rhonald]

How many failures or problems from this Forum alone has been to Non North Americans.  You seem to go into marriage with the 'I can get out if it does not work' attitude instead of 'I will make it work' attitude.

So you draw the conclusion that the attitude of American men is what results in the frequency of failed marriages. I could equally argue that maybe gold diggers will target American men more often then other nationalities or that foreign women's misconception of American men (mainly due to Hollywood and American culture) leads to the failed marriages. Also most members that have married from this forum are from the USA. I feel we do not have a large enough data set to be drawing conclusions from.

[Willy The Londoner]

How many failures or problems from this Forum alone has been to Non North Americans.  You seem to go into marriage with the 'I can get out if it does not work' attitude instead of 'I will make it work' attitude.

 I could equally argue that maybe gold diggers will target American men more often then other nationalities or that foreign women's misconception of American men (mainly due to Hollywood and American culture) leads to the failed marriages. Also most members that have married from this forum are from the USA. I feel we do not have a large enough data set to be drawing conclusions from.

I think you will note that I said percentage wise.  The percentage of failed marriages from North America (Not just Americans) is higher than that of the the rest of the world.  In fact I cannot recall one failure from those in Australia, NZ, UK and Europe.  So I say again it is the mind set of the North American men.  Divorce is too easy.  It may be hard emotionally for one party but much too easy in my opinion.

Also are you saying that American men are so 'Gung Ho' that they rush into marriage before finding out the women are from a small batch of Gold Diggers. 

I make no aplogies for giving blunt opinions. I have never been and never will be politically correct and it does liven up the Forum.

Willy

[Arnold]

There were a lot of 'Gung Ho' types on here saying write letters for 3-4 months, then go on a trip and get married within 5-6 months, and bring her home to live with you within 12-14 months ....

Well, this seems to put me in the Gung Ho category, would it not? Writing 6 months (EMF's and E-Mail) and going to China and get married after the second day there.
Now did I rush? I (am sure same goes for my LaoPo) don't think I did. It is 'How" one uses this time of only letter's and phone calls, to get to know this person in a photo. Making sure it is all on the honest level throughout and I think six months to find this out is more than enough time.. by my standards anyway.. to consider marriage with someone never yet met face to face. Am I a rare case regarding this or am I just smarter than someone else.. you be the Judge. Of course it takes two to make this work (hasn't it always been that way over the ages) and honesty on both side.. how can this go wrong?
This is why I'm really against a Pre-Nup and I mean coming from both sides, as I still see it as.. not trusting the other well enough to worry about material things. I was getting so well along with Qing, that I put her on my Life Ins. before I even met her. Why? Because I had her "Full" trust and she had earned it, to be my Benefiary.
Now married over four years, even if I had a Pre-nup (and alot of assets) I think I would have torn it up by now.. she well enough deserves her share already.. if it ever would go south.. which we both can not comprehend ever happening.

[Rhonald]

I think you will note that I said percentage wise.  The percentage of failed marriages from North America (Not just Americans) is higher than that of the the rest of the world.  In fact I cannot recall one failure from those in Australia, NZ, UK and Europe.  So I say again it is the mind set of the North American men. 

I make no aplogies for giving blunt opinions.

Well, until you actually do research and throw up figures, it is your gut feeling. It is also your gut feeling to the reason for this. In truth I think you are right about no non North American from this forum having a failed marriage - but a big as of YET. How long does the marriage need to last before it figures into your equation?

And your reasoning for the failure due to us rushing in - then what about the non American's rushing into maybe not a marriage, but a relationship never the less that ended in sorrow and folly. Seems to me the odds are just about even when tallied against the Americans - marriage and/or relationship.

You might make no apologies for being blunt, but I also think you are being short sighted in your opinions. Narrowing your focus to just failed marriages misses the bigger picture that all cultures have experienced failure in relationships and usually due to the same mistakes as the failed marriages did.

Statistically modern countries have a 40 - 50 percent divorce rate from first marriages. Harder to find statistics on inter-racial-international marriages - ie: Email/Internet Brides, but if the modern countries are close together with overall divorce rates - then I can not see any cultural trait that would increase the non Americans to have a better success rate. My hunch is no difference.

And as for history in settling the wild west in Canada - the British were less likely to marry and settle down with Indians. The Metis tended to be a result of predominately French or Scottish men with Indian woman. So maybe there are cultural tendicies that help in interracial marriages! Back then England was the world super power, while today it is the USA. Who knows, maybe it is due to the extra critical eye that keeps being cast upon who ever is number one that results in BLUNT LOGIC 



And guys, while on some of his posts here, Willy might appear blunt and direct, in person he is a most agreeable host. Makes me wonder if he sometimes is just a little cold and wishes to stir the coals in the fire.

[David E]

Seems to be a lot of hot-air and steam getting blown around here 

Maybe we should consider marriage between Foreigners (by that I mean those who RESIDE in Foreign Countries) as something totally outside of the usual marriages that the divorce statistics portray.

By definition, foreign marriages could well be considered "quickies"...because of the constraints that we all suffer over timing/visits/visas/Immigration Departments. We dont have the luxury of long, extended courtships where two people can meet very frequently over a long time (2 + years maybe) and then decide if they want to live together/get married. We have to act more speedily, sometimes at the expense of prudence and at increased risk. Few of us can afford the time and money to visit our foreign ladies to achieve the same "contact time" that we probably would with women from our own Country.

The nett result is that we most probably enter marriage knowing somewhat less about our partners than we should, because we could well have only been "face-to-face" for such short periods, we had not the time to REALLY get know everything we should before we actually get married/get her to our Country.

So therefore, weare primed for problems...and we need to be EXTRA careful to nurture he marriage/relationship in the early days, because we have not the luxury of the long engagement. I dont speak here of the long wait from committment to visa, because that does not really count in relationship building processes....only counts for frustration levels and patience !!!!

Different for Willy and those like him...they are in the SAME Country as their intended, they can take much more time to work out exactly who is right to be their life-time partner.

I dont know the real statistics, but I am told that in Aus, about 40% of Foreign marriages fail within a 5 year period, compared to 68 % of same country marriages for Aus as a whole. (this came from my Lawyer, who is close enough to the "powers that be" for the information to have some credibility). I am personally surprised that it is this low, considering the fragility of the relationship model as discussed above. !!

Either which way, marriage to a Foreign Woman MUST be considered as "more risky" than marriage to a local...yet the stats dont appear to back that up. Maybe, despite the risk, the mechanisms and machinations we must go through to have a marriage to a Foreign Woman must make us either more careful to choose correctly, or more tolerant and sensitive to problems along the way in the early days. I find it difficult to believe that there is a different mechanism at work for different countries. Perhaps USA gets the most publicity about failures because it is statistically the place where most Foreign Women dream of living......

By this I mean that 100 failures each year in Aus would be a HUGE percentage of Foreign Marriages, whilst 5000 failures in USA may well be a tiny percentage of the total

Dont confuse quantity with percentage...

[shaun]

I've been back and forth about Willy comment.  Should I comment?  Shouldn't I comment?

If you tally up including those who talk on chnlove then I think it about evens out.  So I think it is Willy just trying to stir the pudding a little.

Ho Hum...  back to sleep now.