China - Next Ten Years?

[David E]

Secondly I was about 20 when the Bay of Pigs came up and Kruschev was sending his ships with their cargo of missiles to Cuban.  Many on here were either little kids or not ever conceived at that time.  It was Kennedy who with the threat of WW3 persuaded Kruschev to turn the ships round and go home.   For 50 years the ordinary people of Cuba have suffered for this act by having vindictive sanctions placed on them. 

Willy

Willly

That's another of your mischeivious statements

Please, lets get the Cuba/Kruschev/Kennedy era in perspective....and yes, I too was around and lived through the fear of that situation....my Dad was a V2 Vulcan Pilot and he went off one day and he fully expected to bomb Moscow with several nukes and never return....when he did come home eventually, he was a broken Man...and the story he told me was spine chilling, he was 8 minutes away from bomb release when he got the recall.....he was in a holding pattern around Kamchatka Peninsular waiting for the "go" signal for 80 minutes...as he said, the worst 80 minutes of any Man's life. I know the unimaginable stress of those few days contributed to the early death of my Dad, I know he never recovered from being in such a horrendous situation.

At that time, the Russians had a clear and dedicated policy for Russian style Communism to take over the World, and they were busy doing just that. The only stopper to this horror was the USA. If Kruschev had got his way and positioned hordes of missiles in Cuba, then he would have the loaded gun always pointed at USA, and with Cuba so close, their reaction time could never be quick enough. Thus Kruschev believed that if he got the missiles into Cuba he could always have the "blackmail"card up his sleeve to prevent USA interfering in his Global plans.

Kennedy disagreed....and went to the brink to ensure that Kruschev was frustrated in his efforts. It is sad for the Cuban people, but then again, whatever Governments of any colour do is never on behalf of the common people is it ?? We common people are just collateral damage...same the World over.

ps I dont want to talk about golf just now.....

[Arnold]

    David... that could have all ruined my Plans with Chnlove and finding my LaoPo. That "was" a close one.. as I was in my mid-teens then and most likely not even taking it seriously the threat at hand.

[Willy The Londoner]

Vince.

Politicians that work for the people!!!


You know that will never happen.

Willy

[Willy The Londoner]

Please, lets get the Cuba/Kruschev/Kennedy era in perspective....and yes, I too was around and lived through the fear of that situation....my Dad was a V2 Vulcan Pilot and he went off one day and he fully expected to bomb Moscow with several nukes and never return....when he did come home eventually, he was a broken Man...and the story he told me was spine chilling, he was 8 minutes away from bomb release when he got the recall.....he was in a holding pattern around Kamchatka Peninsular waiting for the "go" signal for 80 minutes...as he said, the worst 80 minutes of any Man's life. I know the unimaginable stress of those few days contributed to the early death of my Dad, I know he never recovered from being in such a horrendous situation.

ps I dont want to talk about golf just now.....

I can understand just how your Dad felt.  They had the results of the atomic bombs that destroyed Nagasaki and Horoshima and that was with 'less powerful' bombs. By the time of the Cuba incident the bombs were so much bigger and it was far more dangerous for the aircrew carrying them and there was a lot more ground based anti aircraft missiles.

It was only a few days ago I saw a piece on TV talking to relatives of the English man who was a designer of the first the atom bomb.  He went in a second plane following Enola Gay with the intention of seeing just what the effect was. He was actually devastated as to how much damage was caused by that first atom bomb drop.  He never got over what he saw that day he also was too ashamed to admit to family members his part in that destruction.  None of the family  knew anything about this until sometime after his death when government papers were released in the late 1970's.  Even descendants to this day are not happy talking about it.

As you say the common people were just collateral damage with those bombs that killed tens of thousands but, I bet, not one Government politician

Willy

PS. I am definately not talking about Springboks and Cricket.

[Willy The Londoner]

We should stick our nose in whats wrong here, and put other countries
wants and needs second.

I thought that was always official government policy,

Willy

[David E]

Dont misunderstand me Willy...my Dad was not primarily concerned with his own personal safety, after all he was a career Military Man , had just been through WW2 and knew full well that Military Men go in harms way !!!

Whether he got shot down by missiles, by Fighter Interceptors or just plain suicide attacks after the event was not his concern.........shit happens in War.

Having nukes on board was not overly dangerous until the full and complex arming procedure was initiated.

The issue that destroyed his mind was...." if and when I am given the instruction to go to Russia and push the button on 8 nukes, each of 5 MEGATONS (1000 times more powerful than Hiroshima)...will I be able to do it (morally), can I refuse to do it (it would be a LEGAL order), and how can I live with the consequences if I do, or if I dont (Genocide or Treason).

Getting back home again after this, was a very slim option (the "bail-out " plan was to head for a base in China !!!) They knew they would never make it back through Europe, the Russians would throw everything at them to stop their egress. In effect, my dear old Dad really "died" during the agonising 80 minute wait for Armageddon......never recovered from it.

And we think we got problems...those folk were REAL Men.

If you want to know more about the sort of psychologial horror that this type of issue creates, read "Trinity's Child, by William Prochnau"

[JohnB]

I am old as old, but not quite as old as Willy.
The thing is, I think, is not to discredit Krushchev. After Stalin, Krushchev comes across as a saint. After the Cuban fiasco, his power was diminished considerably...like in 1964 he was toast (excuse the pun). My impression he was a pragmatist. Any war was unwinnable.
The Cuban fiasco was fueled by Fidel's insistence that Russia not back down in the face of U.S. threats. There was concession afforded the Russians that the U.S. pull it 's nuclear strike misslle capability from within the borders of Turkey.
So, we are here today because of Kennedy & Krushchev. New & direct contact with one another via the “red” phone. They talked. They reasoned. 
The dramatics of the Cuban blockade were enormous. I mean it felt as if we were that close to total shit (junior in h.s.) but I felt deeply inside the whole thing was total b.s. over nothing. It was like fighting over a truly ugly woman. Basically stupid adventurism.

I understand that after WW2, there was considerable discussion in the West to share nuclear technologies with the Soviet Union, so as to prevent misunderstanding, such as the Cuban fiasco.
Even Eisenhower warned of the power of the military industrial complex. I do not think that was idle presidential chatter.

Well so much shit about something long ago. Fidel still alive. Kenedy assassinated. Krushchev shamed. Not bad casualties considering the fucking ideologues. Fucking assholes on both sides. Cuban embargo still exists. Utterly stupid...”Cold War” is over.
Damn Obama should stop acting like an asshole isolationist republican and give Guantanamo back to Cuba, normalize relations. Be done with that sad chapter in American history. It is worn through & through.

By the way..that young son of Krushchev on his “official” U.S. visit, is today a naturalized American citizen who is a university educator. Go figure..the world is not that bad after all.

[Martin]

So speaking of Russian global expansionism, and China's thriving economy...what about its military might, and how it is flexing its military muscle right now?  China claims to own pretty much everything in the South China Sea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_China_Sea

There are disputes happening now with Chinese fishing boats heading into waters belonging to other sovereign nations, and being escorted by Navy ships to prevent anyone from chasing off the illegal fishing.

So how will this military landscape change in the next few years as well?  I feel the two issues go hand in hand.

[Willy The Londoner]

I know the Canadians and Europeans have troops in the blue of the UN peacekeepers and so does China.  Not sure if or how many the USA have.  But China is building up a good reputation for what they are doing world wide.

Plus they have never gone to war in any other country. 

I personally are more concerned with the American buildup in Asia and that is the reason that China is concerned with taking over these islands to stop the country being in the position that the USA was with the Cuban affair.

Why should the USA had the sole right to protect itself from afar.  You do not think that any of the Asia interests the USA have are for the benefit of Asians!!

Willy

[Rhonald]

Plus they have never gone to war in any other country. 

Willy

Chinese Invasion of Vietnam
 February 1979
 
China's relations with Vietnam began to deteriorate seriously in the mid-1970s. After Vietnam joined the Soviet-dominated Council for Mutual Economic Cooperation (Comecon) and signed the Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation with the Soviet Union in 1978, China branded Vietnam the "Cuba of the East" and called the treaty a military alliance. Incidents along the Sino-Vietnamese border increased in frequency and violence. In December 1978 Vietnam invaded Cambodia, quickly ousted the pro-Beijing Pol Pot regime, and overran the country.
 
China's twenty-nine-day incursion into Vietnam in February 1979 was a response to what China considered to be a collection of provocative actions and policies on Hanoi's part. These included Vietnamese intimacy with the Soviet Union, mistreatment of ethnic Chinese living in Vietnam, hegemonistic "imperial dreams" in Southeast Asia, and spurning of Beijing's attempt to repatriate Chinese residents of Vietnam to China.
 
In February 1979 China attacked along virtually the entire Sino-Vietnamese border in a brief, limited campaign that involved ground forces only. The Chinese attack came at dawn on the morning of 17 February 1979, and employed infantry, armor, and artillery. Air power was not employed then or at any time during the war. Within a day, the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) had advanced some eight kilometers into Vietnam along a broad front. It then slowed and nearly stalled because of heavy Vietnamese resistance and difficulties within the Chinese supply system. On February 21, the advance resumed against Cao Bang in the far north and against the all-important regional hub of Lang Son. Chinese troops entered Cao Bang on February 27, but the city was not secured completely until March 2. Lang Son fell two days later. On March 5, the Chinese, saying Vietnam had been sufficiently chastised, announced that the campaign was over. Beijing declared its "lesson" finished and the PLA withdrawal was completed on March 16.


The Sino-Indian Border Conflict 1962

Unable to reach political accommodation on disputed territory along the 3,225-kilometer-long Himalayan border,[7] the Chinese launched simultaneous offensives in Ladakh and across the McMahon Line on 20 October 1962, coinciding with the Cuban Missile Crisis. Chinese troops advanced over Indian forces in both theatres, capturing Rezang la in Chushul in the western theatre, as well as Tawang in the eastern theatre. The war ended when the Chinese declared a ceasefire on 20 November 1962, and simultaneously announced its withdrawal from the disputed area.

[maxx]

Willy what American buildup in Asia? Are you talking about Okinawa, Guam.And Saipan?If so They are closing the bases in Okinawa.And moving the personell to Guam.And reactivating the base on Saipan.Saipan and Guam are both American territories.As far as I know they are not sending any more military personell to Asia.The fact of the matter is.They are realeasing some personell early.Because they have no place to house them anymore.

As far as UN peacekeeping forces.If your country belongs to the U.N.Then yes it supplies troops to the U.N peacekeeping force.I think there is only about half a dozen countries left in the world.that don't belong to the U.N.

why do Chinese Fishing boats need a military escort.It is s because they are trying to fish in other countries Territorial waters.And they are trying to lay claim to a group of islands that are closer.To Indonesia,and Vietnam.They have all built little military outposts on these little islands.That spend half of the year under water.The reason China wants these islands is because.There is a big oil reserve.Under these islands.And there is supposed to be good fishing there.Willy I remind you again.It takes allot of oil and food to support a population of 3.2 billion screaming Chinese.Did you ask your wife if she has ever eaten rice grown in China.My wife never has.

Most of the bigger nations do protect themselves from afar.Ever heard of the British west indies.Do you know there is Russian troops all threw eastern Europe.There is a bunch of island in the Caribbean owned by the French.There is a bunch of island in the Carabeans.Owned by the Brits.That is partly what the U.N peace keeping forces do.

I know this is kind of ancient history.But I wanted to ad to what Rhonald posted.China used to  invade Japan all the time.They invaded Tibet.Sent the Dali lama in exile.The Chinese troops still have running firefights with The Tibetans.They throw flaming pop bottels at Chinese troops.Smash a few store windows.Kind of like the I.R.A. did against the Brits.Make you wonder why.The Tibetans and the I.R.A. are so pissed off for so many years.

When Myanmar got wiped out by a Typhoon.The Americans along with the Brits and the Chinese.Tried to get aid into the country to help the people.Myanmars government wouldn't let them send aid.Unless Rangoon military was involved in distributing the supplies.So what happend to the millions of dollars worth of Aid that countries sent there.It all went to the government.

Willy I just heard that the British priminister has just declared war against Brits with black hair and glasses.British solders have orders to shoot any Brit.That wears glasses or have dark colored hair.Do you want are help to stop this madness.Or do you think that your little ragtag resistance fighters.With primitive weapons. no heavy artillery,No jets.Is going to stop.One of the best equipped and well fed armies in the world.

[Willy The Londoner]

C'mon Rhonald they were not Wars.

If they are wars then the USA action was war when it invaded Grenada a member of the British Commonwealth.

Plus you are talking about events that occurred before the 'New China' emerged in the 1980's.

New China has only been around for 30 years and look how powerful financially they have come.  Look how they are opening up to the World in recent years. 

Just image what the next ten years will bring and the ten years after.  I would like to be here to see it in twenty year time but just imagine what a grouchy old bastard I would be at 90!!!!!!!!!!!

Maxx your talking rubbish as there are only 1.4 billion Chinese and India is just becoming the country with the biggest population in the world.  Will they be the next threat to the USA.  Have you not seen the numbers of US troops being sent to Australia and how ships of US fleet is continually calling at Hong Kong.   Tibet in the Chinese eyes is part of China.  If the US was having problems in far of Guam they would also send in the troops just as UK did with the Maldives.

It looks to me as if China has taken the place of Russia as the likely enemy of the USA. 

Why is America, UK and others in Afghanistan - Geologist have said that it probably has the biggest mineral resources of any country. 

Willy

PS I would prefer not to have help from American soldiers.  For a start I would not trust one with a gun. Plus I still live with the ww2 joke associated with Americans  - that they were Over Paid, Over Sexed and Over Here.



 

[Rhonald]

Plus you are talking about events that occurred before the 'New China' emerged in the 1980's.

By 1987 China had stationed nine armies (approximately 400,000 troops) in the Sino-Vietnamese border region, including one along the coast. It had also increased its landing craft fleet and was periodically staging amphibious landing exercises off Hainan Island, across from Vietnam, thereby demonstrating that a future attack might come from the sea.
 
Low-level conflict continued along the Sino-Vietnamese border as each side conducted artillery shelling and probed to gain high spots in the mountainous border terrain. Border incidents increased in intensity during the rainy season, when Beijing attempted to ease Vietnamese pressure against Cambodian resistance fighters.
 
Since the early 1980s, China pursued what some observers described as a semi-secret campaign against Vietnam that was more than a series of border incidents and less than a limited small-scale war. The Vietnamese called it a "multifaceted war of sabotage." Hanoi officials have described the assaults as comprising steady harassment by artillery fire, intrusions on land by infantry patrols, naval intrusions, and mine planting both at sea and in the riverways. Chinese clandestine activity (the "sabotage" aspect) for the most part was directed against the ethnic minorities of the border region. According to the Hanoi press, teams of Chinese agents systematically sabotaged mountain agricultural production centers as well as lowland port, transportation, and communication facilities. Psychological warfare operations were an integral part of the campaign, as was what the Vietnamese called "economic warfare"--encouragement of Vietnamese villagers along the border to engage in smuggling, currency speculation, and hoarding of goods in short supply.

C'mon Rhonald they were not Wars.

Yes they are not as direct in your face as the USA but what they have been doing, you could call a stealth war. Which ever nation is the current super power of the world, through out history has usually used direct blunt means. Rome did it, the English Empire did it, and the USA is doing it. Sometime Willy I think you do not see that any world power, emerging or established, have thorns hidden below the rose buds.

I agree with you that they have become more open, and hopefully all nations will learn that with technology where it is today, that muscle flexing should only be done at the beach, or at the Olympics.

[JohnB]

I am familiar with VietNam long ago and I have always maintained an interest of sorts. that Chinese invasion basically ended as a war of attrition. kudos to the Viet's on their successful invasion of Pol Pot's Cambodia or do we conveniently disregard that asshole murderer.
when it came down to it I think the Chinese were humiliated by the invasion.

Times have changed in 30 years   http://www.youtube.com/embed/1vA4T1wfJLE?rel=0   I willingly surrender to the superior Chinese force.

[Rhonald]

I willingly surrender to the superior Chinese force.

I agree with you that they have become more open, and hopefully all nations will learn that with technology where it is today, that muscle flexing should only be done at the beach, or at the Olympics.

Or as John pointed out Military might flexing by Soldier girls in Skirts.